Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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17 minutes ago, tillerman said:

@Wess You are such a downer. You need to snap out of it. Give yourself a treat. Grab an RS Aero and come to our regatta on May 30 at Lake Massapoag where all the Sunfish sailors are strong, all of the Laser sailors are good-looking, and all of the RS Aero sailors are above average. (I guarantee all of the Lasers will have plaques too, but nobody will give a damn whether they do or not.)

https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=event&eid=1899
 

Where's Tillerman?

Okay here's a new distraction while waiting for the announcement of the new American Laser builder.

Tillerman posted a link which led to a picture of the RS Aero Sailors at Lake Massapoag in sunny Sharon, Mass.  See if you can (without referring to any websites , social media or blogs) pick out Tillerman.  The winner gets Wess's infamous bottle of rum (which may or may not be an urban legend). Tiller announces the winner, when and if the first new Laser rolls off the production line of a manufacturing facility based in the US or Canada.

1303240291_WhereTillerman.thumb.jpg.13b0b6fb6c76d331e750d9c2d18d4424.jpg

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On 2/10/2020 at 10:39 PM, tillerman said:

3. Meanwhile, sailors in Britain seem quite happy sticking with the name Royal Yachting Association

To be fair the RYA covers much more than sailing. Its the national body for motor boats too, however its not the national body for rowing or canoeing, so there's not an obvious substitute for Yachting. 

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1.) Its not a high jack @Mambo Kings.  Its actually a great contrast to ILCA. 

2.) I liked you right up to the point you started giving away MY rum LOL!!! 

3.) I canntt fairly play the Tiller game since I know who he is.

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

1.) Its not a high jack @Mambo Kings.  Its actually a great contrast to ILCA. 

2.) I liked you right up to the point you started giving away MY rum LOL!!! 

3.) I canntt fairly play the Tiller game since I know who he is.

Many think they know who he is. 

But it would be bad form to drink your own rum, so we accept your DNC.

I am not going to take the bait on the ILCA.  I used to be a member because I used to own a Laser and I sailed in the Worlds one year. I am not sure what these draconian fees of many thousands of dollars are that you are so critical of.    The Australian section of the Class Association publishes its finances online and its amazing how much they do with so little.  I imagine the D&O insurance for ILCA is a little higher than most classes.

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2 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

 I imagine the D&O insurance for ILCA is a little higher than most classes.

Wasn't trolling you honestly.  It is fair to compare how some classes structure (and disclose) fees compared to others. 

Your line above is LOL funny.  Well done!

Be mindful though of what it doesn't cover!!

PS - I also don't think its $1000s per boat.  Others suggested that.

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32 minutes ago, JimC said:

To be fair the RYA covers much more than sailing. Its the national body for motor boats too, however its not the national body for rowing or canoeing, so there's not an obvious substitute for Yachting. 

Looking at the website, the motor boats dont get a lot of love.  It would be a bit like hearing that the Royal Scottish Gamekeepers Association  represents and defends the interest of gamekeepers,  ghillies, stalkers, and ...poachers. 

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14 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Looking at the website, the motor boats dont get a lot of love.  

However when I looked at a RYA internal phone directory a few years ago I was struck by how few posts were directly connected with Sailboat racing, most especially if you excluded the jobs that looked as if they were financed out of ringfenced out of Olympic and Olympic pathway sponsorship money.

IN a lot of ways the interests of folks cruising around in motor boats and sailboats coincide, when you think about things like mooring rights, access to harbours, waterways, opposing excessive government legislation etc... And when there's a single voice there's a lot more weight than separate bodies. You folks in the US seem to be much more heavily regulated than we are here, and at least a good chunk of credit has got to go to the national bodies.

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22 hours ago, IPLore said:

JIYC has some of the best sailing facilities on the harbor.

At high tide.

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28 minutes ago, torrid said:

At high tide.

Anything about 2hrs on either side of dead low is good.  That keeps you on the sand, but pulling the dingy uphill after a long day of hiking is not much fun.

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30 minutes ago, torrid said:

At high tide.

as long as there hasn't been a hurricane recently.

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1 hour ago, Mambo Kings said:

Where's Tillerman?

Okay here's a new distraction while waiting for the announcement of the new American Laser builder.

Tillerman posted a link which led to a picture of the RS Aero Sailors at Lake Massapoag in sunny Sharon, Mass.  See if you can (without referring to any websites , social media or blogs) pick out Tillerman.  The winner gets Wess's infamous bottle of rum (which may or may not be an urban legend). Tiller announces the winner, when and if the first new Laser rolls off the production line of a manufacturing facility based in the US or Canada.

1303240291_WhereTillerman.thumb.jpg.13b0b6fb6c76d331e750d9c2d18d4424.jpg

Red shirt. Front Left?

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1 hour ago, Mambo Kings said:

Where's Tillerman?

Okay here's a new distraction while waiting for the announcement of the new American Laser builder.

Tillerman posted a link which led to a picture of the RS Aero Sailors at Lake Massapoag in sunny Sharon, Mass.  See if you can (without referring to any websites , social media or blogs) pick out Tillerman.  The winner gets Wess's infamous bottle of rum (which may or may not be an urban legend). Tiller announces the winner, when and if the first new Laser rolls off the production line of a manufacturing facility based in the US or Canada.

1303240291_WhereTillerman.thumb.jpg.13b0b6fb6c76d331e750d9c2d18d4424.jpg

That quiz is too easy. Two bottles of Wess's legendary bottles of rum for the first person who can name the sailor in this picture who is working for a future ILCA dinghy builder.

Hold off on submitting your answers until @Wess writes a post praising the leadership of ILCA for having steered the Laser class through troubled waters and into a new brighter future and all on such a modest budget.

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Now @tillerman you well know that I wrote many many many posts praising prior ILCA leadership for having steered the Laser class through troubled water.  And you do realize there is no such thing as a Laser class anymore right?  So what you ask now is impossible.  You need to ask forgiveness so get down on your knees... that is what Aerobians do correct?  :P

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24 minutes ago, Wess said:

Now @tillerman you well know that I wrote many many many posts praising prior ILCA leadership for having steered the Laser class through troubled water.  And you do realize there is no such thing as a Laser class anymore right?  So what you ask now is impossible.  You need to ask forgiveness so get down on your knees... that is what Aerobians do correct?  :P

There will always be a Laser class in my heart.

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22 minutes ago, tillerman said:

There will always be a Laser class in my heart.

And so you circle us back to the farmer killing the golden goose that pooped on his shoe.  :lol:

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7 minutes ago, Wess said:

And so you circle us back to the farmer killing the golden goose that pooped on his shoe.  :lol:

Life is too short to worry about poop on your shoe.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Now @tillerman you well know that I wrote many many many posts praising prior ILCA leadership for having steered the Laser class through troubled water.  And you do realize there is no such thing as a Laser class anymore right?  So what you ask now is impossible.  You need to ask forgiveness so get down on your knees... that is what Aerobians do correct?  :P

It appears you are right. The Laser class is officially dead. Here is a photo from the event formerly known as the Laser Worlds. Not a Laser in sight. Ugh!

1687337174_ilcaworlds.thumb.jpg.77a99841501a471289a79a43758c7d6c.jpg

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9 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

CYC and JIYC do not allow single female memberships. ChYC does.  What about Hobcaw?

I'm quite shocked that you still have such sailing clubs.

Normally you think of such clubs as being about a musty old drawing room where they don't want women distracting from serious man conversation (or something like that).

Why the rule in these cases. 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

It appears you are right. The Laser class is officially dead. Here is a photo from the event formerly known as the Laser Worlds. Not a Laser in sight. Ugh!

1687337174_ilcaworlds.thumb.jpg.77a99841501a471289a79a43758c7d6c.jpg

The ILCA lawyers would have to say no; they are ILCAs. They (the ILCA lawyers) will especially have to say that at the 2024 Olympics. Ain’t no Lasers here. 
 

Now as to what ILCA stands for the leadership (liars) at ILCA will have to come up with something creative. Kinda like their initial statements re soon, comments on this thread and comments to WS. We live in a fake news world where truth is fungible and ILCA leadership seems to have embraced that trend IMHO. Just one opinion and worth what you paid.  Que the haters and liars...

# ditch the fat cat liars and give the money to the clubs

# it’s too huggy kissy nice nice around here need to shake it up

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22 minutes ago, Wess said:

The ILCA lawyers would have to say no; they are ILCAs. They (the ILCA lawyers) will especially have to say that at the 2024 Olympics. Ain’t no Lasers here. 
 

Now as to what ILCA stands for the leadership (liars) at ILCA will have to come up with something creative. Kinda like their initial statements re soon, comments on this thread and comments to WS. We live in a fake news world where truth is fungible and ILCA leadership seems to have embraced that trend IMHO. Just one opinion and worth what you paid.  Que the haters and liars...

# ditch the fat cat liars and give the money to the clubs

So the Worlds are in Australia and PSA are supplying all the boats. PSA own the Laser trademark rights for Australia so they could have supplied Lasers to the Laser Worlds. Instead they supplied ILCAs with that awful, unsightly ILCA logo on all the sails.

Why?

Three bottles of @Wess's legendary rum to whoever gives the best answer.

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4 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Why?

Because they have lawyers on the payroll?

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5 minutes ago, Wess said:

Because they have lawyers on the payroll?

Still don't get it. Why is there any legal issue with PSA supplying Lasers in Australia?

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Wait for the rest of the shoes to fall. This mess is going to go on FOREVER!!

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15 minutes ago, tillerman said:

So the Worlds are in Australia and PSA are supplying all the boats. PSA own the Laser trademark rights for Australia so they could have supplied Lasers to the Laser Worlds. Instead they supplied ILCAs with that awful, unsightly ILCA logo on all the sails.

Why?

When you've just climbed into bed with your new wife it's not smart to use your previous lover's name. 

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11 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

When you've just climbed into bed with your new wife it's not smart to use your previous lover's name. 

Winner; lock it!

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3 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

When you've just climbed into bed with your new wife it's not smart to use your previous lover's name. 

LOL.

So just so I have it clear...

1. PSA and ILCA are now inextricably intertwined. 
2. PSA wants to be associated with the ILCA brand in most of the world and to sell a gazillion PSA ILCA dinghies in the rest of the world before any new dealers come on line.
3. So, to avoid confusion - i.e not let anyone in the rest of the world think that the Laser brand still exists - PSA are selling ILCA dinghies in Australia.
4. And having lots of action photos and video from Australia of a World Championship sailed exclusively in ILCA dinghies will help put a stake through the heart of the Laser brand and persuade all of the current Laser sailors in the worlds that all the cool kids sail ILCA dinghies now.

Is that right? 

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3 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

When you've just climbed into bed with your new wife it's not smart to use your previous lover's name. 

We have a winner. 3 bottles of rum to this man

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:


1687337174_ilcaworlds.thumb.jpg.77a99841501a471289a79a43758c7d6c.jpg

Wind is 9-12 knots out of the West. It is 2.30 in the afternoon and we still havent got the results of any racing today.

Whatever the organization formerly known as International Laser Class Association spends it's money on, it is not online results and updates.  A good mate from the Viper Class is doing really well. Fingers crossed.

 

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10 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

We have a winner. 3 bottles of rum to this man

Well at least you don't say you are giving away Wess's rum anymore.  I am at least owed 2 bottles - from Robbie and Tracy - and there should be more, but folks ran away when they realized I was right LOL! 

And I realize you may not be able to confirm but running your numbers against a base of 30 boats a year, the total fees are less than 1% of the boat price if they were all passed through and in the case of the Viper where the builder is not selling to sailing schools or resorts, etc... (i.e. most all boats are raced) I doubt they are.  Either way my complements on your and the Viper class's transparency re all the fees.

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19 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Wind is 9-12 knots out of the West. It is 2.30 in the afternoon and we still havent got the results of any racing today.

Our racing only starts at 2pm each day, cut them a bit of slack... I'd suggest not staying up following results tonight, we'll be lucky to race at all

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On 2/11/2020 at 3:14 PM, Wess said:

I did have trouble Bill resisting a comment on the time.  But I did wait.  And wait.  And wait.  Hmmmmm; January 8 to February 11.  Is that more than a week?  Is it more than a month?  Will it be more than a year?  Will it ever happen??? 

These lemmings really have trouble with timelines.  I guess its coming "soon."  Like that new NA builder was back A YEAR AGO!!  :P

See below which I received from Tracy a  couple days ago.

Hi Bill,
  I'm in the midwest this week for work so somewhat delayed in responding to things related to ILCA. 
  Yes, it was intended to have this done some time ago. We have one last, really last, box to tick and as soon as that as done then the info will be released. I'd like to say we will have this sorted early next week but, then, well, its February and if you told me last August we would still be working out the last kinks now I'd have not believed it. So I will say "next week" knowing that it means logical next week in the sense that the week after the box gets ticked. 
  Sorry, thanks for the patience! 
  Tracy
 
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Riveting the gooseneck to a carbon tube..... Not really a long term solution. And if you were going to make any part of the mast composite, then wouldn't it make sense to make it the top section?

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11 minutes ago, Red Dolphin said:

Riveting the gooseneck to a carbon tube..... Not really a long term solution. And if you were going to make any part of the mast composite, then wouldn't it make sense to make it the top section?

They already did.

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14 minutes ago, bill4 said:

They already did.

Thanks for the heads up Bill. Can't believe how far off the pace I am. Carbon masts on a laser, whats the world coming to?

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6 minutes ago, Red Dolphin said:

Thanks for the heads up Bill. Can't believe how far off the pace I am. Carbon masts on a laser, whats the world coming to?

It is not carbon. The composite section is identical weight and has as close as possible bend characteristics as the Al section.  

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8 hours ago, bill4 said:

See below which I received from Tracy a  couple days ago.

Hi Bill,
  I'm in the midwest this week for work so somewhat delayed in responding to things related to ILCA. 
  Yes, it was intended to have this done some time ago. We have one last, really last, box to tick and as soon as that as done then the info will be released. I'd like to say we will have this sorted early next week but, then, well, its February and if you told me last August we would still be working out the last kinks now I'd have not believed it. So I will say "next week" knowing that it means logical next week in the sense that the week after the box gets ticked. 
  Sorry, thanks for the patience! 
  Tracy
 

Rome wasn't built, I mean re-built in a day...

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composite-radial-lower-mast-section-deta


 

ILCA Approves New Composite Radial Lower Mast

Composite lower mast to be class-legal for racing after 1 September 2020. 

The International Laser Class Association (ILCA) is pleased to announce the release of a class-legal composite lower mast, for use on the ILCA 6/Radial class boat. 
 
Sold under the ILCA brand, the new masts are expected to be available for purchase through class approved builders in early 2020. However, they will not be legal for class sanctioned racing until after 1 September in order to avoid any issues with the Olympics or Olympic qualification.
 
Because the new mast was designed with the same bend and performance characteristics as the existing aluminum masts, it will not provide a performance advantage but instead will eliminate the permanent bending problems associated with the aluminum spars.

“ILCA’s policy regarding the introduction of new equipment is that it should have the same characteristics as the existing equipment and can be raced side-by-side,” says ILCA Executive Secretary, Eric Faust. “The spar has been tested by some of the top sailors in the world and they all agree that the composite mast meets the design objectives.”

According to ILCA Technical Officer, Clive Humphris, “The new lower mast has been developed and extensively tested to ensure that it is ready for the rigors of competition. The advantage is that the new mast will be much more durable and will therefore provide a better value over the long run versus the aluminum spar.” 

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2020/02/13/ilca-announces-composite-6-lower-mast/?fbclid=IwAR2GbIdzmuy_iWUwf7WIH3VBjoi1YzWAgiyP4yUWEdv6kHw_iybpu1rt5-U

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8 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

Death (of the Laser... the boat and the class) by a thousand paper cuts.  That thing is worth a careful read.  More expensive gear for  a boat and worse yet a boat/rig that is aimed at juniors.  The lemming line undoubtedly will be this is so parents will not have to buy multiple bent or broken bottom (and top) sections and ignore that should not be the case either.  The bottom line is this means more money out of parent's pockets and more money into class's, WS's, and builder's pockets.  They should have renamed the boat/class to be "wealth transfer."

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while I was annoyed at the price of the carbon lower, after I looked at how many radial lower sections I've purchased in recent years after bending them permanently I think the carbon section is well worthwhile.  Will be cheaper in the long run for anyone that races a radial in decent wind

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21 minutes ago, Wess said:

Death (of the Laser... the boat and the class) by a thousand paper cuts.  That thing is worth a careful read.  More expensive gear for  a boat and worse yet a boat/rig that is aimed at juniors.  The lemming line undoubtedly will be this is so parents will not have to buy multiple bent or broken bottom (and top) sections and ignore that should not be the case either.  The bottom line is this means more money out of parent's pockets and more money into class's, WS's, and builder's pockets.  They should have renamed the boat/class to be "wealth transfer."

Don't be so negative. Carbon is cool. Gouvernail says so. The ILCA 6 kiddos will love having carbon masts just like all their friends in more modern classes.

 

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The name of the class hasn't changed.

The logo on the sail/boat has. It isn't complicated.

The World Champs are on right now - and its exciting - NZ and Australia are not dominating like they did in Japan!

So can anyone please explain exactly how the Laser class has died?

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@tillerman - Good news for you.  We are starting an Aero for Olympics advert campaign!  Its the fastest way to save the Laser class!!

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39 minutes ago, Wess said:

@tillerman - Good news for you.  We are starting an Aero for Olympics advert campaign!  Its the fastest way to save the Laser class!!

LOL. I don't think so. The ILCA 6 and the ILCA Standard are stuck with being in the Olympics until at least 2028. By the time WS start planning how to mess up Olympic sailing even more in 2032, there will have been so many advances in sailing technology that either (a) the whole category of singlehanded dinghies with one sail, no trapeze and no foils will be tossed from the Olympics for something more exciting or (b) some other totally new class not yet launched will beat the ILCAs in the Trials. 

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Here you go guys, have at it:

From Wes Whitmyer, BK’s lawyer:

”Bruce Kirby wins big jury verdict against Laser Performance. Stay tuned for details.”

”Jury found willful trademark infringement and misappropriation of the Bruce Kirby trademark and awarded $6.8M in damages.”

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1 minute ago, aroy210677 said:

Here you go guys, have at it:

From Wes Whitmeyer, BK’s lawyer:

”Bruce Kirby wins big jury verdict against Laser Performance. Stay tuned for details.”

Well done Wess!

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That’s a hell of a verdict. Someone really pissed off the jury. Look forward to hearing more. 

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50 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

The name of the class hasn't changed.

The logo on the sail/boat has. It isn't complicated.

When the International Olympic Committee organise a regatta, they put the Olympic logo on the mandatory event sails.

When the ILCA organises a regatta, they put the ILCA logo on the event sails.

The boats are supplied by PSA in a territory where PSA has the rights to brand them as Lasers. I'd bet pounds to peanuts there is Laser branding somewhere on the boats, and after the regattas, they will be sold off as Lasers.

Re: attached image - ermagerd, they've banned the Laser name and renamed us the Olympic Single Hand Dinghy class! (2016)

yysw203793.jpg

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17 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Well done Wess!

LOL, thank you.

WWW

PS - not really.

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1 hour ago, JMP said:

while I was annoyed at the price of the carbon lower, after I looked at how many radial lower sections I've purchased in recent years after bending them permanently I think the carbon section is well worthwhile.  Will be cheaper in the long run for anyone that races a radial in decent wind

That really depends on the durability of the new composite Radial lower.

Which reminds me, has anyone with the new composite upper had any experience with capsizing in shallow water and getting stuck in the mud?  That was always a good way to bend or break an upper spar.  I'm curious if the new upper is more durable in that aspect.

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4 minutes ago, torrid said:

That really depends on the durability of the new composite Radial lower.

It will be interesting to see how long will it take before corrosion between carbon/ stainless steel/monel kicks in.

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9 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

How did Tillerman  get this shot? 
Did  he hack the office computer’s webcam? 
We’re they so creeped out they quit?? 


Geeze. I must be a jinx. No sooner do I post a photo of some people in Laser world and praise what a good job they are doing, that they decide to quit.

Who will Tillerman praise next?

 

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11 minutes ago, tillerman said:


Geeze. I must be a jinx. No sooner do I post a photo of some people in Laser world and praise what a good job they are doing, that they decide to quit.

Who will Tillerman praise next?

 

Pretty sure you have praised WS and ILCA.  Maybe you should try again LOL.

More seriously, those are good folks.  They also helped run the Snipe class.  Whatever problems anyone believes exist or not in ILCA and the now extinct Laser class, those folks were not the problem; they were part of a solution. 

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22 hours ago, tillerman said:

the whole category of singlehanded dinghies with one sail, no trapeze and no foils will be tossed from the Olympics for something more exciting

Are you meaning to imply that the Aero is not exciting!?  Its more affordable that a Laser and that is pretty exciting!!

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

Pretty sure you have praised WS and ILCA.  Maybe you should try again LOL.

More seriously, those are good folks.  They also helped run the Snipe class.  Whatever problems anyone believes exist or not in ILCA and the now extinct Laser class, those folks were not the problem; they were part of a solution. 

Anyone know why they stopped?  Too much class drama?

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On 2/14/2020 at 4:46 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

That’s a hell of a verdict. Someone really pissed off the jury. Look forward to hearing more. 

It looks like it was an interesting line up.

BKI was represented by two young attorneys 5 and 6 years out of law school who specialize only in IP law. They were associates at a specialist IP law firm but a partner did not  make an appearance as counsel. When this case started , they were not lawyers.

LPE was represented by two local 30 year litigation veterans with general litigation experience (real estate, malpractice defense, insurance disputes etc but no IP or trade mark background), both partners.

Winning an award of this size, for a young attorney is a real feather in the career cap.

One wonders which side selected not to waive the right to a jury trial.

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Has anyone here got access to Pacer and can access the details of the verdict etc. 

The size of the damages award and the verdict of trademark infringement aren't really of great interest to most of us, but if the US legal system has found the contracts and in particular the termination clauses valid then that's a very big deal. 
What's the betting, though, that actually enforcing the termination clauses would be another 5 years of litigation. 

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Im reading the orders re motions in limine that Judge Meyer issued on 5th Feb the week before the trial.

BKI vs Quarter Moon

AFAI can tell, this case was narrowly a suit about trademark violation and misappropriation of the Bruce Kirby name.  It does not appear to be about the builders contract, the design of the Laser or the Laser trademark.

Judge Meyer:

1. Denied plaintiff's (BKI) motion to preclude argument that Laser Performance revenue is not attributable to Quarter Moon.  This meant that during the trial BKI had to prove that revenues from the sale of Laser sailboats were legally attributable to Quarter Moon.

2. Denied plaintiff's motion to preclude the argument that the 1989 builders agreement was not terminated. Plaintiff argues that it was terminated and would have to prove this in court.

3. In 2006, the US Patent and Trademark office issued a letter which according to the defendants (Quarter Moon) stated that the use of the phrase "Designed by Bruce Kirby" did not constitute a viable trace mark.  The Plaintiffs filed a motion seeking to preclude this letter from evidence. Judge Meyer granted this motion. There was no evidence submitted by the defendants showing that they were aware of this letter during the course of the alleged actions at issue during the case, nor had the defendants shown how their awareness of this letter at some later times is relevant.  The judge granted this motion such that both the letter itself and any mention of the letter were precluded from the trial .

4.  Judge granted plaintiffs motion to exclude evidence related to the defendants counterclaims which have been dismissed. In particular this meant that the defendants could not introduce evidence at trial that BKI had acted improperly with regard to the construction manual (broken the confidentiality provisions) and tried to launch the Torch.

5. The plaintiff filed a very clever motion to prevent the defendant arguing that BKI had acquiesced to the use of the Bruce Kirby name. The judge allowed the motion in so far as he ruled that the defendant( LP/Quarter Moon) could not argue the affirmative defense of acquiescence. He partially denied the motion  in so far as the defendant would be allowed to dispute plaintiff's lack of consent. This may have been an important win for the BKI team. Acquiescence is a very strong defense in a trade mark claim. However it is an affirmative defense and the defendants have to raise that defense in their answer to the complaint. For some reason, they failed to do so.  Nor did they amend their answer to the complaint to claim acquiescence. (Clearly they were not reading the thread on SA). BKI's young IP attorneys jumped on that one.

6. The judge ruled that a 2017 lawsuit between the same parties regarding the "Kirby fishing boat" could not be introduced as evidence in this case. There's a twist we didn't know about! Who knew? :huh:

I dont think # 1-4 were particularly significant. # 5 was interesting.

My (admittedly misty) recollection was that the ISAF plaques contained the phrase "Designed by Bruce Kirby" on the plaque for many years.

I also vaguely recall that when BKI wrote asking LP to stop using his name on the plaque, they did. 

Included in the BKI lawsuit which was primarily about breach of contract and tortuous interference, was a claim for trade mark infraction for using the name "Bruce Kirby".  It may have been a colossal error not to at least answer that claim with a defense of "acquiescence". The outcome may have been the same but my guess is that it shifted the burden in a significant way.

@Clean any thoughts?

 

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5 hours ago, JimC said:

Has anyone here got access to Pacer and can access the details of the verdict etc. 

The size of the damages award and the verdict of trademark infringement aren't really of great interest to most of us, but if the US legal system has found the contracts and in particular the termination clauses valid then that's a very big deal. 
What's the betting, though, that actually enforcing the termination clauses would be another 5 years of litigation. 

The size of the damages is very large and  I imagine it will impact LP's economics.

The trial appears to be about using the name Bruce Kirby.

 

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To put the size of damages in context. Kirby sold his rights in the Laser and BKI to Global Sailing (sister company to PSA) for $2.6 million.  BKI has supposedly just won a $6m+ award of damages.  They'll be doing cartwheels in Auckland.

Odds for an appeal?

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This is real?  I thought it was all a joke.  I bet BK himself never thought he would get a $5.6 million judgement when this all started.  And on the trademark issue, not the convoluted contract issues.  Do some sort of treble or punitive damages apply?

Anyway, good luck in actually collecting that money Bruce.

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Is the award amount similar to retail price of all boats sold since LP quit paying fees to BK? Seems like I learned back in Blowtorch School of Law that damages for ripoff goods could be based on retail price of sales not just unpaid licencing fees. The problem with Blowtorch School of Law is not all the lecturers are correct. 

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6 hours ago, IPLore said:

Im reading the orders re motions in limine that Judge Meyer issued on 5th Feb the week before the trial.

BKI vs Quarter Moon

AFAI can tell, this case was narrowly a suit about trademark violation and misappropriation of the Bruce Kirby name.  It does not appear to be about the builders contract, the design of the Laser or the Laser trademark.

Judge Meyer:

1. Denied plaintiff's (BKI) motion to preclude argument that Laser Performance revenue is not attributable to Quarter Moon.  This meant that during the trial BKI had to prove that revenues from the sale of Laser sailboats were legally attributable to Quarter Moon.

2. Denied plaintiff's motion to preclude the argument that the 1989 builders agreement was not terminated. Plaintiff argues that it was terminated and would have to prove this in court.

3. In 2006, the US Patent and Trademark office issued a letter which according to the defendants (Quarter Moon) stated that the use of the phrase "Designed by Bruce Kirby" did not constitute a viable trace mark.  The Plaintiffs filed a motion seeking to preclude this letter from evidence. Judge Meyer granted this motion. There was no evidence submitted by the defendants showing that they were aware of this letter during the course of the alleged actions at issue during the case, nor had the defendants shown how their awareness of this letter at some later times is relevant.  The judge granted this motion such that both the letter itself and any mention of the letter were precluded from the trial .

4.  Judge granted plaintiffs motion to exclude evidence related to the defendants counterclaims which have been dismissed. In particular this meant that the defendants could not introduce evidence at trial that BKI had acted improperly with regard to the construction manual (broken the confidentiality provisions) and tried to launch the Torch.

5. The plaintiff filed a very clever motion to prevent the defendant arguing that BKI had acquiesced to the use of the Bruce Kirby name. The judge allowed the motion in so far as he ruled that the defendant( LP/Quarter Moon) could not argue the affirmative defense of acquiescence. He partially denied the motion  in so far as the defendant would be allowed to dispute plaintiff's lack of consent. This may have been an important win for the BKI team. Acquiescence is a very strong defense in a trade mark claim. However it is an affirmative defense and the defendants have to raise that defense in their answer to the complaint. For some reason, they failed to do so.  Nor did they amend their answer to the complaint to claim acquiescence. (Clearly they were not reading the thread on SA). BKI's young IP attorneys jumped on that one.

6. The judge ruled that a 2017 lawsuit between the same parties regarding the "Kirby fishing boat" could not be introduced as evidence in this case. There's a twist we didn't know about! Who knew? :huh:

I dont think # 1-4 were particularly significant. # 5 was interesting.

My (admittedly misty) recollection was that the ISAF plaques contained the phrase "Designed by Bruce Kirby" on the plaque for many years.

I also vaguely recall that when BKI wrote asking LP to stop using his name on the plaque, they did. 

Included in the BKI lawsuit which was primarily about breach of contract and tortuous interference, was a claim for trade mark infraction for using the name "Bruce Kirby".  It may have been a colossal error not to at least answer that claim with a defense of "acquiescence". The outcome may have been the same but my guess is that it shifted the burden in a significant way.

@Clean any thoughts?

 

I think you may be on the right track regarding the willful infringement via using BK's name.  Also, I believe the claims were bifurcated between the contract issues and the trademark claims and the contract case has not yet been heard, but that information may be out of date.

Having never done any deep work in the trademark infringement arena, some of your comments are a bit japanese to me.  I look forward to reading more about this case.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, IPLore said:

 

Odds for an appeal?

It will cost a lot less than 6M dollars, so Ima go with 100%

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This story has so many more shoes to drop you might as well call the boat a caterpillar..

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

This story has so many more shoes to drop you might as well call the boat a caterpillar..

So how's the ILCA move to separate from LPE and take on FRAND look to you now?

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14 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

So how's the ILCA move to separate from LPE and take on FRAND look to you now?

LPE is no longer an approved ILCA builder (at least for now.) Short term PSA are taking over the European and North American markets once reserved for LP/LPE with their ILCA brand boats. 7 other builders are well along the path to becoming ILCA approved builders soon.

Sounds to me as if ILCA leadership are doing a magnificent job in steering the class into this brave new world.

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

So how's the ILCA move to separate from LPE and take on FRAND look to you now?

You expecting a different answer?  Same as it ever was.

Don't care about the loss of LPE.  They dug their own grave.  And walked into it.  They were as dumb as ILCA leadership was smart and crafty.

I will never agree FRAND is a good thing or that ILCA leadership did anything other than protect the elite few (and yet again not give a shit about club and grass roots sailors)  in their actions here. 

So the answer to your A is "I don't care (other than ILCA leadership was either stupid or acted in bad faith re timing of builder replacement and boat economics)" and the answer to your B is "as bad as it ever was."

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18 minutes ago, Wess said:

You expecting a different answer?  Same as it ever was.

Don't care about the loss of LPE.  They dug their own grave.  And walked into it.  They were as dumb as ILCA leadership was smart and crafty.

I will never agree FRAND is a good thing or that ILCA leadership did anything other than protect the elite few (and yet again not give a shit about club and grass roots sailors)  in their actions here. 

So the answer to your A is "I don't care (other than ILCA leadership was either stupid or acted in bad faith re timing of builder replacement and boat economics)" and the answer to your B is "as bad as it ever was."

OK.

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19 minutes ago, Wess said:

You expecting a different answer?  Same as it ever was.

Don't care about the loss of LPE.  They dug their own grave.  And walked into it.  They were as dumb as ILCA leadership was smart and crafty.

I will never agree FRAND is a good thing or that ILCA leadership did anything other than protect the elite few (and yet again not give a shit about club and grass roots sailors)  in their actions here. 

So the answer to your A is "I don't care (other than ILCA leadership was either stupid or acted in bad faith re timing of builder replacement and boat economics)" and the answer to your B is "as bad as it ever was."

FRAND is certainly an enormous challenge for the ILCA leadership, but if it leads to Zim Sailing becoming a supplier of Kirby sailboats it will be something absolutely positive to emerge from the situation for grass roots sailors. It really doesn't matter whether they call the boats ILCAs, Lasers (unlikely IMHO) or something new like ZIM 14. 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

FRAND is certainly an enormous challenge for the ILCA leadership, but if it leads to Zim Sailing becoming a supplier of Kirby sailboats it will be something absolutely positive to emerge from the situation for grass roots sailors. It really doesn't matter whether they call the boats ILCAs, Lasers (unlikely IMHO) or something new like ZIM 14. 

And if you are naive enough to believe that Zim US will be building boats long term... well... I guess next you will tell me they will be doing so "soon" and that FRAND Laser will be less expensive than they ever were due to economy of scale or lack of a monopoly.  Call it bad faith, call it lies, call it what is was and always will be... bullshit.

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

And if you are naive enough to believe that Zim US will be building boats long term... 

how long do you expect zim to build them for, and what will happen to prevent zim from building them for longer?  

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27 minutes ago, Wess said:

And if you are naive enough to believe that Zim US will be building boats long term... well... I guess next you will tell me they will be doing so "soon" and that FRAND Laser will be less expensive than they ever were due to economy of scale or lack of a monopoly.  Call it bad faith, call it lies, call it what is was and always will be... bullshit.

You are such a downer.

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39 minutes ago, tillerman said:

You are such adowne.

The word you are looking for realist.  :P

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

The word you are looking for realist.  :P

That’s not the first word we think of when we think of you .:P:o:P:)

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Canntt help it if lemmings (and ex-lemmings) don't like truth.  There is sooo much more to come in this mess and I can go on telling truth forever.

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

You expecting a different answer?  Same as it ever was.

Don't care about the loss of LPE.  They dug their own grave.  And walked into it.  They were as dumb as ILCA leadership was smart and crafty.

I will never agree FRAND is a good thing or that ILCA leadership did anything other than protect the elite few (and yet again not give a shit about club and grass roots sailors)  in their actions here. 

So the answer to your A is "I don't care (other than ILCA leadership was either stupid or acted in bad faith re timing of builder replacement and boat economics)" and the answer to your B is "as bad as it ever was."

Good Lord, you are a dick. 

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7 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

Good Lord, you are a dick. 

So I guess that means you still can’t say what “soon” means for a US builder to be up and pushing out boats for sale, or list all (all means all) the fees collected that are associated with the boat that used to be called a Laser? Or why you argued the FRAND boats would be cheaper when they are in fact proven to be much more expensive? I got more but you seem incapable of answering the easy ones so... :lol:

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I don’t think Wess is a dick. The New York Times bestseller - “Assholes: A theory” - offers descriptive narrative on all types of assholes we encounter in life. I believe Wess is a hybrid asshole, combining the characteristics of both the “boorish asshole” and the “smug asshole”. But not a simple dick. 

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