Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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3 minutes ago, torrid said:

Besides Heine, who all are behind TLC?  Is it the same people as EurILCA, and EurILCA is just breaking off from ILCA?

EurILCA are not a part of 'TLC'. My hope is that officials 'jump ship', so that they can be replaced.  So far as I am aware, Wellmann has not resigned from the ILCA World Council. 

Interim President
Heini Wellmann

Interim Executive Secretary
Beat Heinz
 
Interim Advisory Members
Monica Azon
Charles Campion
George Drougas
Carlos de Echavarri
Macrino Macri (technical consultant)
Francesco Marrai
Cesar Sierhuis
Jorge Smolar
Jan-Willem Wolters
 

https://www.thelaserclass.com/pages/advisory-board

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44 minutes ago, Wess said:

Wait, what?  Please don't make me take him off ignore and try to figure out where above arises from... are you serious... he worked directly or indirectly for GS/PSA???

I am surprised that anyone would hire him as a writer or consultant. However a former version of his website claimed that he had consulted for a leading nautical brand in NZ and Australia.  Who knows what he has done?  I thought I would ask the question.

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5 minutes ago, torrid said:

Here is the EurILCA leadership.  Looks like Mr. Heinz needs to make a choice one way or another.

http://eurilca.org/about-eurilca/

There are three ILCA officials, so far as I can tell:

  1. Heini Wellmann (ILCA World Council, as immediate past president).
  2. Beat Heinz (EurILCA Exec) - though his official position as "Master Coordinator" or when (and how) he was elected/appointed is unclear to me. Beat is also on the board of ILCA Switzerland.
  3. Jan Willem Wolters - ILCA Belgium.

---

Have I missed any?

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6 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

There are three ILCA officials, so far as I can tell:

  1. Heini Wellmann (ILCA World Council, as immediate past president).
  2. Beat Heinz (EurILCA Exec) - though his official position as "Master Coordinator" or when (and how) he was elected/appointed is unclear to me. Beat is also on the board of ILCA Switzerland.
  3. Jan Willem Wolters - ILCA Belgium.

---

Have I missed any?

Good to know that The Laser Class has some leadership with experience in the ILCA class in similar roles. Thanks for the info.

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

Good to know that The Laser Class has some leadership with experience in the other Laser class in similar roles. Thanks for the info.

What's more significant than your idiotic claim are those who don't appear. 

So far as I can tell, there is nobody outside of Europe.

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10 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

What's more significant than your idiotic claim are those who don't appear. 

So far as I can tell, there is nobody outside of Europe.

A lot of good ideas got started in Europe and then went global.

Democracy
The scientific method
The theory of evolution
The World Wide Web
The paper clip
Monty Python
The RS Aero
Me.

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25 minutes ago, IPLore said:

I am surprised that anyone would hire him as a writer or consultant. However a former version of his website claimed that he had consulted for a leading nautical brand in NZ and Australia.  Who knows what he has done?  I thought I would ask the question.

I'm here, reading your personal attacks.

Its no secret that I worked for Navman back in 1999-2004. I appeared on TV and was reported in the media - so its hardly a secret.

---

This is a distraction away from IPLore claiming that what Heini said (as quoted) was not misleading.

What Wellmann said was misleading. 

---

IPLore attempts to blur this by saying what Heini said is true, or disputed. I confirm that IPLore has disputed what I said. Heck, some people dispute that man went to the moon. 

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I did stop by the LPE stand at the dinghy show. Didn’t get one straight answer just people parroting the press release and once they realised I had a good grasp of the back story of it all , they didn’t want to talk at all . 
The whole situation is a huge mess and it makes me so sad to see the class I was involved with for twenty years in this state.

On a personal level though I really enjoyed the the show and I spent a long time at the Dzero stand , chatting and admiring the boat. I am going to have  another test sail in a few months , but I think I am already certain some of my redundancy money will be heading in this direction in the near future.:D

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51 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

  This is an example of a narrative that IPLore has been pushing for seven long years. Kirby asserted his rights more recently than 1983. He did publicly in 2013, both through the media and through legal actions.

Care to rephrase so the question makes sense?

 

 

The phrase that Heini and ILCA used were "design rights" 

Three sets of questions for you Bruce

1. Do you agree with Heini that the historical class rule that Heini was referring to was passed prior to 1983? Do you agree that in 1983 BK asserted that he owned the design copyright?  Thus do you thus agree that Heini and the class association were being truthful  and accurate when he stated "The rule was instituted at a time when Bruce Kirby held certain design rights "?

2. Do you agree that any copyright, patent or design rights that BK owned in 1983 would have expired by 2013?  Thus do you agree that Heini and the class association were being truthful when he stated "We also took legal advice. The lawyers also informed us that the Kirby design patents had in fact expired." ?

3. Please point us to the design rights that BK asserted in 2013. I can point you to quotes when Kirby specifically stated he was not asserting design rights but contractual rights.

You duck and weave like a fairground game, but you fail to point out to the misleading comments made by HW or to justify your libelous statement accusing.....

2 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Mr Wellmann's questionable relationship with the truth

 

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40 minutes ago, IPLore said:

The phrase that Heini and ILCA used were "design rights" 

Three sets of questions for you Bruce

1. Do you agree with Heini that the historical class rule that Heini was referring to was passed prior to 1983?

Yes.

Mr Wellmann stated that the "design rights" were no longer current.

Quote

Do you agree that in 1983 BK asserted that he owned the design copyright? 

Other than the agreements themselves, I'm not aware of BK making that assertion in 1983. Note that there were later agreements with "design rights". 

Quote

Thus do you thus agree that Heini and the class association were being truthful  and accurate when he stated "The rule was instituted at a time when Bruce Kirby held certain design rights "?

Yes. I also agree that Mr Wellmann was reframing those rights as being in the past. In other words, Mr Wellmann was misinforming.

Quote

2. Do you agree that any copyright, patent or design rights that BK owned in 1983 would have expired by 2013?  Thus do you agree that Heini and the class association were being truthful when he stated "We also took legal advice. The lawyers also informed us that the Kirby design patents had in fact expired." ?

I'm unclear about that, and as we all discussed about seven years ago there were no design patents to expire. Mr Wellmann misinformed many by making that statement. Whether or not Mr Wellmann deliberately misinformed doesn't matter, that he misinformed did (and does).

Is it possible to make a statement that is true and misinforms?  (The answer is yes.)

Trying to shift the goal posts to being whether or not a statement is true, fails to address whether or not the statement misinforms. (This failure has me questioning whether or not IPLore is or was a real lawyer, though I accept the narrative that IPLore provided himself that he is a recently retired lawyer.)

Quote

3. Please point us to the design rights that BK asserted in 2013. I can point you to quotes when Kirby specifically stated he was not asserting design rights but contractual rights.

The many media reports. 

Here's one in 2011: https://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Laser-Class-–-Contracts-signed-and-designer-Bruce-Kirby-is-back/-88873?source=google

...and in 2013: https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2019/01/23/disharmony-laser-world/

Kirby was clear that the "design rights" were derived from contracts.

This is what Rastegar/LP etc said in 2013 (in their legal statement): "Kirby’s so-called “design rights,” if there ever were such rights, have long since expired."

...and: "In clear breach of the exclusive license terms of the 1983 and 1989 Builder Agreements, Kirby and BKI purport to have licensed the same “design rights” to PSA (for Asia and Oceania) and builders in Canada (for the Americas) and the Netherlands (for Europe, Africa and the Middle East)"

...and "Pursuant to Section 2.3 of the 1983 Builder Agreement, Kirby, BKI and later Global Sailing granted to LaserPerformance’s predecessor in interest the exclusive license of the “design rights” to manufacture, sell and market the “Kirby Sailboat” in the “Licensed Territory.”"

So if Rastegar accepts that Kirby asserted design rights, why can't you?

Quote

You duck and weave like a fairground game, but you fail to point out to the misleading comments made by HW or to justify your libelous statement accusing.....

Nope. I'm directly addressing these issues, namely whether or not Mr Wellmann misinformed.

Mr Wellmann definitely made statements which misinformed.

---

I'm left wondering if IPLore is impersonating a troll, or genuinely needs a lesson in libel law.

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1 hour ago, Xeon said:

I did stop by the LPE stand at the dinghy show. Didn’t get one straight answer just people parroting the press release and once they realised I had a good grasp of the back story of it all , they didn’t want to talk at all . 
The whole situation is a huge mess and it makes me so sad to see the class I was involved with for twenty years in this state.

On a personal level though I really enjoyed the the show and I spent a long time at the Dzero stand , chatting and admiring the boat. I am going to have  another test sail in a few months , but I think I am already certain some of my redundancy money will be heading in this direction in the near future.:D

I'm jealous.  What I'd give to attend a good sail boat show like we had in the early 80's here in the US.  Man those were fun!  When I was 14 the owner of our marina, (where we kept our Catalina 30) was also the local Laser dealer and had me work the booth selling Lasers.  Got some cool pics with the bathing suit clad Jet Ski girls.  They had much better marketing.....

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3 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

OMG I think I’ve woken in 2008...

But it is soooo funny. I admit I had to go in and change some settings to peak.  I gotta set those back and look away or I will never get my work, work done. 

No trolling and totally true... this boat/classes is the gift that keeps giving.  This is so far from done.  You could still be laughing at/with the same people in 2028.  Well 2024 almost for sure.

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9 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

OMG I think I’ve woken in 2008...

Great contribution Sosoomii, though it is a part of the distraction.

What's your current thinking, do you think that Wellmann misinformed back in 2011? 

Its relevant now because of the positions Wellmann now holds, both as a member of the ILCA World Council, and leader of TLC.

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52 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

 

What's your current thinking, do you think that Wellmann misinformed back in 2011? 

 

I don't know Heini Wellman.  I don't necessarily agree with his point of view and I don't agree with his approach to the problem. But I can read a statement and compare it to the facts. I can state categorically that Wellman's statement that you provided is generally accurate and does not misinform.

So the question remains, what is your agenda?

Why are you so keen to persuade us, in plain contradiction of the facts,  that Heine Wellman has  a "questionable relationship with the truth" (ie you are calling him a liar)?. You made the same comments about Jeff Martin.

You have a tendency to accuse anyone who disagrees with your point of view, a liar, an imposter or a troll.  Why cannot you simply disagree with people in a civilized manner instead of making stuff up. You undermine your credibility.  I, for one, never take anything you say at face value.

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22 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Great contribution Sosoomii, though it is a part of the distraction.

What's your current thinking, do you think that Wellmann misinformed back in 2011? 

Its relevant now because of the positions Wellmann now holds, both as a member of the ILCA World Council, and leader of TLC.

Why thank you. 

To be honest there has been so much noise I really can’t remember the details and nor do I care to research. I know my position at the time was sympathetic to Kirby and not LP. But IPL is far more knowledgeable of the legal rights and wrongs, mine was only an ethical position. 

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2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Why thank you. 

To be honest there has been so much noise I really can’t remember the details and nor do I care to research. I know my position at the time was sympathetic to Kirby and not LP.

Agreed.

2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

But IPL is far more knowledgeable of the legal rights and wrongs, mine was only an ethical position. 

Disagreed. 

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20 hours ago, tillerman said:

A third Laser class? That doesn't sound like progress.

Why not usr the democratic process within ILCA to change leadership and strategies if you believe that it needs a new direction?

You abandoned the Laser class for an Aero long ago so I don't even know why you are here other than to diminish what Mr. Kirby and Bruce built and to prop up your own uber-expensive failed little Aero dinghy experiment.  Piss off.

Since you gentlemen, and I use the term loosely, lack basic reading and comprehension skills let me clarify and make it simple.  ILCA has failed.  PSA has failed.  LP has failed.  World Sailing has failed.  They have all failed the masses.  They have all corrupted the vision the Laser class was built on.  They are all solely interested in the elite segment of the sport and control over it.  What I propose is diametrically opposed to them and that and a return to the original vision for the boat and class.

What I ask is that Mr. Kirby relaunch the Laser, not as it is, but as it was.  A return to the original vang, cunninghan, outhaul and spars.  A return to the original SMOD concept.  One builder.  The same simple, affordable, rugged SMOD boat and class the Laser used to be but is no more.  Just rebranded as the Torch.  If aimed at the masses and done this way it would be everything the Laser used to be and nothing that ILCA, PSA, LP, and WS have turned it into.  And not one of those organizations could do a thing about it.  All would be powerless to stop it.  A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.  Viva la Torch!

21 hours ago, LMI said:

An Open Letter to Mr. Bruce Kirby

Dear Mr. Kirby,

You and Mr. Ian Bruce , RIP, designed, developed and launched a boat and class in the Laser, that changed the world of sailing.  You were instrumental in introducing hundreds of thousands of people, young and old, experienced and newbs, to sailing and racing.  The Laser and the class were unlike anything before it.  The boat was simple, accessible, affordable, and rugged.  The class was built on the concept of SMOD racing and focused on growth from the masses.  Here was the ideal boat and class for the club sailor, the college sailor, and with the addition of radial rig, for the young and old.

Sadly, the boat and class that remains now is a dark shadow of its former self.  Power hungry and greedy, the builders, the class itself, and World Sailing has corrupted your and Mr. Bruce’s vision.  Simple is now complex, accessible is now exclusive, affordable is now absurdly expensive, and rugged is now replaced with broken components that must be constantly replaced at considerable and significant added expense.  The class that used to be Laser doesn’t even call it the Laser anymore, they call it the ILCA whatever that is.  The boat and class is nothing like the joy that you designed.  A spar alone now costs what your complete boat used to.  As for the class; it has been corrupted beyond recognition.  SMOD has been replaced with some abomination called FRAND in order to chase the elite sailors of the world while ignoring the masses this great boat and class were built on.

The former lead builder, LP, recently fired, now proposes to rescue the class from PSA, ILCA and World Sailing with the launch of a competing class to ILCA called TLC.  Alphabet soup I know and an inevitable split between the elite and the mass of the class you and Mr. Bruce launched, but LP are no less greedy or power hungry than those they opposed.  No one serves the sailors anymore.  Not the class ILCA and not the builders PSA or LP.  And not World Sailing.  They are all too busy chasing the elite, their money, and control.  It is indeed a dark time for those who love and care about affordable, accessible, SMOD racing in single handed dinghies and you may ask or wonder if there is any hope and future for your and Mr. Bruce’s original vision.

There is.

Light the Torch and burn away the pretenders.

 I implore you to launch the Torch.  Target and price the boat and class for the masses.  Bring back SMOD.  Bring back simple and affordable.  Do away with composite spars and the upgraded vang and cunningham that add nothing and simply break boats and rigs.  Do away with new rigs and grey sails.  Do away with the greedy, and control seeking people corrupting your vision.  Do away with PSA, ILCA and LP.  Bring back the Laser and class that you launched.  I realize that you can't call it the Laser and would have to call it the Torch, but as I would, many sailors would be honored to buy, sail and race in a Torch class aligned with your original vision.  The elite are the few; we are the many.

In closing, I hope you bring back the boat and class so many of us grew up with and miss.  A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.  Viva la Torch!

 

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

I don't know Heini Wellman.  I don't necessarily agree with his point of view and I don't agree with his approach to the problem. But I can read a statement and compare it to the facts. I can state categorically that Wellman's statement that you provided is generally accurate and does not misinform.

  1. I asked sosoomi.
  2. Wellmann (correct spelling) misinforms because there were no patents. If you take a pig-headed approach, place your head in the sand, yes, Wellmann was true because he repeated what others stated.
2 hours ago, IPLore said:

So the question remains, what is your agenda?

 

To support the organisation I first joined in the 1980s and am a current member, the ILCA. 

Basically, I'm a mad keen sailor and have been since the 1970s.

2 hours ago, IPLore said:

Why are you so keen to persuade us, in plain contradiction of the facts,  that Heine Wellman has  a "questionable relationship with the truth" (ie you are calling him a liar)?. You made the same comments about Jeff Martin.

You give your opinion based on the 'alternate fact' that Wellmann didn't mislead.

Most thinking people thought he did. Great to know you are an exception.

2 hours ago, IPLore said:

You have a tendency to accuse anyone who disagrees with your point of view, a liar, an imposter or a troll.  Why cannot you simply disagree with people in a civilized manner instead of making stuff up. You undermine your credibility.  I, for one, never take anything you say at face value.

(Is the best form of defense attack). Actually, I don't. Perhaps you just get that feeling because I'm one of the few people that call you on your BS. 

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44 minutes ago, LMI said:

You abandoned the Laser class for an Aero long ago so I don't even know why you are here other than to diminish what Mr. Kirby and Bruce built and to prop up your own uber-expensive failed little Aero dinghy experiment.  Piss off.

LOL. I am here because after 35 years sailing a Laser I am still interested in what's going on in Laser world. For similar reasons, I participate in a couple of online forums about the town in which I was born and which I "abandoned" about 50 years ago. Much as I was glad to get out of that town, and much as I was glad to move on from the Laser to another boat, they were both a big part of my life and influenced me in so many ways. I can't help being interested in them both.

I certainly don't want to diminish Bruce Kirby's creation. In fact when the Laser class wanted members to vote to remove the requirement that approved builders must have contracts with Kirby, I was in the minority that voted agains the proposal (i.e. I voted to protect Bruce's interests and in the way he wanted us to vote.)

Actually I do have some sympathy with your proposal. I too am nostalgic for the early days of the Laser class before all the upgraded rigging etc. and certainly without all the toxic politics of the last few years. (I even wrote a blog post on that topic - Classic Laser.) But I don't think it's practical to put the genie back in the bottle. And I doubt that  Bruce Kirby has any appetite at his advanced age for relaunching the Torch and starting a third Laser class.

And as for my "little experiment" in moving to the RS Aero - it has certainly not been a failure. The Aero has restored my passion for sailing, and being a founder member of a successful, thriving class has been one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. No regrets.
 

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9 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I thought it was over 6 with the punitives not yet calculated.  Of course we have no idea what assets, if any, are in the companies with the judgments against them.  We also don't know whether a court would move to set aside any transfers of assets that may have been made in preparation for such a judgment, and which ones may be set aside.

would the trademark be one of those assets?

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21 hours ago, tillerman said:

A third Laser class? That doesn't sound like progress.

 

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3 hours ago, KC375 said:

would the trademark be one of those assets?

No. When I last heard the trademark was, and has I believe for a good number of years, been held by Velum Ltd, an Antigua and Barbuda corporation headquartered in Switzerland. AIUI that situation long predates any of the legal shenanigans. 

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22 minutes ago, JimC said:

No. When I last heard the trademark was, and has I believe for a good number of years, been held by Velum Ltd, an Antigua and Barbuda corporation headquartered in Switzerland. AIUI that situation long predates any of the legal shenanigans. 

It all goes back to the same person.

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5 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:
  1.  

Most thinking people thought he did.

Most people, or most dumb people?

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14 hours ago, tillerman said:

A lot of good ideas got started in Europe and then went global.

Democracy
The scientific method
The theory of evolution
The World Wide Web
The paper clip
Monty Python
The RS Aero
Me.

A lot of bad things too!

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11 hours ago, tillerman said:

LOL. I am here because after 35 years sailing a Laser I am still interested in what's going on in Laser world. For similar reasons, I participate in a couple of online forums about the town in which I was born and which I "abandoned" about 50 years ago. Much as I was glad to get out of that town, and much as I was glad to move on from the Laser to another boat, they were both a big part of my life and influenced me in so many ways. I can't help being interested in them both.

I certainly don't want to diminish Bruce Kirby's creation. In fact when the Laser class wanted members to vote to remove the requirement that approved builders must have contracts with Kirby, I was in the minority that voted against the proposal (i.e. I voted to protect Bruce's interests and in the way he wanted us to vote.)

Actually I do have some sympathy with your proposal. I too am nostalgic for the early days of the Laser class before all the upgraded rigging etc. and certainly without all the toxic politics of the last few years. (I even wrote a blog post on that topic - Classic Laser.) But I don't think it's practical to put the genie back in the bottle. And I doubt that  Bruce Kirby has any appetite at his advanced age for relaunching the Torch and starting a third Laser class.

And as for my "little experiment" in moving to the RS Aero - it has certainly not been a failure. The Aero has restored my passion for sailing, and being a founder member of a successful, thriving class has been one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. No regrets.
 

Holy crap Tiller; love your blog post on the classic Laser but it and you made me so sad.  Two of my favorite things on earth are dead... the classic Laser and the Bitter End Yacht club. Both gone.  Done in by different forms of a hurricane.  But we share the common ground of those experiences... both of being there and of sailing and racing those old Lasers there. 

And yea, I could support a classic Laser class in the form of the Torch.  Turns out ole grey hair was the least greedy of them all.  Go figure.  Heck I even have the belt and T-shirts!!

#Lemoncrash

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6 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Most people, or most dumb people?

Definitely most people, including you Clean.

Why would you go calling yourself dumb Clean? Or have you changed your mind?

Pretty sure you have forgotten, so here's a reminder:

On 4/27/2013 at 11:50 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

interestingly enough, the libel argument seems silly until you see that (a) the ILCA made at least one verifiable false statement of fact (when introducing the builder-change vote) and ( B) it straight-up damaged Kirby in quantifiable ways - that's pretty much the definition of libel, and is the first thing I'm seeing that really puts the ILCA in a bad legal spot.

---

15 hours ago, IPLore said:

You have a tendency to accuse anyone who disagrees with your point of view, a liar, an imposter or a troll.  Why cannot you simply disagree with people in a civilized manner instead of making stuff up.

I've disagreed with many people without calling them a liar, troll or making stuff up - and in a respectful way. Above I disagreed with Clean - by pointing out he has disagreed with himself. My intentions are respectful, because Clean has earned respect. Clean forgot, it was a small mistake, doesn't damage his reputation, and his statement was possibly based on the notion I'm someone I'm not - a notion that IPLore (and others) have to some extent successfully promoted. 

For the record, I've never accused Clean of been a troll, liar or impostor (because unlike you IPLore, Clean is a straight up guy, and has admitted getting stuff wrong). 

To everyone - the above is an example of IPLore's alternate reality BS narrative against me.

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12 hours ago, tillerman said:

And I doubt that  Bruce Kirby has any appetite for relaunching the Torch.
 

Just noticed this and while I agree I also had to laugh.  Why do you say "relaunch."  He never launched it and never will.  Zero built or sold AIUI.  Just another ploy.

I really am surprised that people don't get this.  There are no "white knight" in this Laser mess. They are all dark knights.  I love the boat and fleets of Laser too much so wouldn't want an Aero (unless it expends its reach) but the one nice thing about the Aero - similar to Viper - is that there isn't this political mess, constant money and power grabs, and it really (seems at least) that its about grass roots club level sailing

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Just noticed this and while I agree I also had to laugh.  Why do you say "relaunch."  He never launched it and never will.  Zero built or sold AIUI.  Just another ploy.

Does a sticker on a Laser count?
See the source image
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6 minutes ago, bill4 said:
Does a sticker on a Laser count?
See the source image

Yea, I know.  That is exactly what he did with the Torch photos.  And that wasn't even done well.  Was talked about a lot in the old thread.  Lost a lot of respect for his cause when I saw that and all his press around it... it being something he clearly never intended to do despite al is words.  Like I said... no white knights to be found anywhere. 

Its still a great boat.  Was blowing here all weekend. Too much breeze for (me in) the UFO and too cold for the wife to want to go out in the big tri so I played in the Laser with some neighbors. Our community beach was a nice lee in case anything went wrong so all of us were really thrashing.  We did a few ww/lw using rabbit starts and then just blast reached back and forth until our legs gave out.  So much fun. The scotch tasted good around the fire afterwards.  Your, Robbie's, or Tracy's rum would have tasted even better LOL!  :D

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45 minutes ago, Wess said:

  Your, Robbie's, or Tracy's Rum would have tasted even better 

 

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17 minutes ago, Wess said:

No no no you crazy canuck.

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Interesting how far the Laser (or whatever it's called) has progressed since this 1978 brochure.

Page 1.jpg

Page 2.jpg

Poster.jpg

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1 hour ago, Alan Crawford said:

Page 2.jpg

 

Love that hiking style. Part of the reason for the state of my knees...

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6 hours ago, Alan Crawford said:

Interesting how far the Laser (or whatever it's called) has progressed since this 1978 brochure.

Page 1.jpg

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Poster.jpg

Bring this back.  The changes have only benefited the builders and those chasing the elite sailors and power.  The new controls are between 3 and 10 X the price of the boat as originally designed and have done nothing to improve the racing or sailing.  But the boat is far more expensive.  The class and World Sailing gets rich, the builders get rich and sailors get fleeced.  Bring back the original Laser.  Launch the Torch Mr. Kirby.  A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. 

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7 hours ago, LMI said:

Bring this back.  The changes have only benefited the builders and those chasing the elite sailors and power.  The new controls are between 3 and 10 X the price of the boat as originally designed and have done nothing to improve the racing or sailing.  But the boat is far more expensive.  The class and World Sailing gets rich, the builders get rich and sailors get fleeced.  Bring back the original Laser.  Launch the Torch Mr. Kirby.  A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. 

Here we go again with this silly untruth that the Laser/ILCA is ‘ far more expensive now’. 
If you factor in inflation, it’s no more expensive than it ever was. The rise in its price is roughly inline with similar products in many industry’s.

Its not like consumer electronics where  economy’s of scale and outsourcing of manufacturing mean products are actually cheaper in real terms than they were 20 years ago .

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3 minutes ago, Xeon said:

Here we go again with this silly untruth that the Laser/ILCA is ‘ far more expensive now’. 
If you factor in inflation, it’s no more expensive than it ever was. The rise in its price is roughly inline with similar products in many industry’s.

Its not like consumer electronics where  economy’s of scale and outsourcing of manufacturing mean products are actually cheaper in real terms than they were 20 years ago .

..also worth recalling that the controls enhancements were brought in with class consent (AAUI, I wasn't involved at the time), were optional for years (arguably still are) and enable more people to sail the boat effectively. The current Junior, Youth and Adult-Female constituencies would likely be significantly smaller without them.  I appreciate there's a minority that might think that's a good thing but it seems to me healthy for the class (and the sport)  as a whole, and potentially has helped prevent it fading into obscurity along with so many others.

Cheers,

              W.

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2 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

..also worth recalling that the controls enhancements were brought in with class consent (AAUI, I wasn't involved at the time), were optional for years (arguably still are) and enable more people to sail the boat effectively. The current Junior, Youth and Adult-Female constituencies would likely be significantly smaller without them.  I appreciate there's a minority that might think that's a good thing but it seems to me healthy for the class (and the sport)  as a whole, and potentially has helped prevent it fading into obscurity along with so many others.

Cheers,

              W.

I totally agree with your points about the controls too

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Never hiked like that ever . It not only hurts like hell, it is much harder than keeping your legs straight and keeps your torso much closer to the centerline. 
I loved blasting past folks who weenie hiked. 

The old "ass dragger" hike.

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8 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Never hiked like that ever . It not only hurts like hell, it is much harder than keeping your legs straight and keeps your torso much closer to the centerline. 
I loved blasting past folks who weenie hiked. 

Now I have to use my memory. Great. It seems to me that this was de rigueure in the very early Laser days (early 70's) as it was the most common form of dinghy hiking. People jumping form other boats would just hike as they always had. I believe the first guy I saw straight-leg hiking was Terry Nielson at a youth regatta in 75 or 76. Andy can correct me, but I believe that is how Terry got the nickname "Boner".

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On 3/2/2020 at 6:53 PM, torrid said:

Besides Heine, who all are behind TLC?  Is it the same people as EurILCA, and EurILCA is just breaking off from ILCA?

Laser Performance, it seems.  No suprises.

 

Screenshot from the TLC facebook page...

 

 

tlc.jpg

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

Laser Performance, it seems.  No suprises.

 

Screenshot from the TLC facebook page...

 

 

tlc.jpg

LP is as much behind TLC as PSA is behind the ILCA if we follow your logic ? Should we not trust ILCA's team then ?

Edited by kr0osti
ass insteas of as...

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1 minute ago, kr0osti said:

LP is ass much behind TLC as PSA is behind the ILCA if we follow your logic ? Should we not trust ILCA's team then ?

PSA clearly funding ICLA as they have already been given licence to build charter fleets for all the Championships plus the Olympics. 

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7 minutes ago, kr0osti said:

LP is as much behind TLC as PSA is behind the ILCA if we follow your logic ? Should we not trust ILCA's team then ?

ILCA is funded by equipment fees from PSA, PSJ and membership fees from the sailors.  PSA haven't tried to stop ILCA from bringing new builders online and generally acted like a spoilt child that doesn't appreciate the privileged position granted to it by the sailors and ILCA.

LP have, got kicked out, and are now starting their own association which will represent their interests.   Whatever LP say about it, ILCA is ultimately governed by the sailors.

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13 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

PSA clearly funding ICLA as they have already been given licence to build charter fleets for all the Championships plus the Olympics. 

I don't believe that follows.  Are you suggesting that PSA have paid ILCA for the privilege of building charter fleets?  What evidence do you have for this?  The model that has been used previously where a builder supplies is that a builder builds a fleet, charges sailors for the charter, then sells the boats off as second hand afterwards.  The sailors pay the builder.

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5 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

I don't believe that follows.  Are you suggesting that PSA have paid ILCA for the privilege of building charter fleets?  What evidence do you have for this?

No. ILCA contract PSA to build the charter fleets.  PSA are then required to pay ILCA fees for each boat they build for the charter fleets. So monies pass from PSA to ILCA.

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1 minute ago, winchfodder said:

No. ICLA contract PSA to build the charter fleets.  PSA are then required to pay ICLA fees for each boat they build for the charter fleets. So monies pass from PSA to ICLA.

Do you mean the normal fees that would be paid for any boat for the world sailing plaque? If you mean something different then again I'd ask for evidence that this is the nature of the agreement.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

Do you mean the normal fees that would be paid for any boat for the world sailing plaque? If you mean something different then again I'd ask for evidence that this is the nature of the agreement.

 

 

Exactly that. By giving a contract to build boats then you are automatically going to get monies for each boat built if you are the licence holder. 

I do not know the numbers of boats in the contracts or the fees paid. But most likely a fair amount. 

 

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12 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Exactly that. By giving a contract to build boats then you are automatically going to get monies for each boat built if you are the licence holder. 

In that case your argument doesn't work - those boats are ultimately bought by sailors.  It's not PSA funding ILCA it's the sailors through their purchase of class legal equipment.

The Laser Class isn't what it claims to be. 

It's not a class association with paying members, it's not recognised by world sailing, there's already a class association for that class of boat, it can't organise a world championship and it doesn't own the trophies that people want, doesn't have any elected officers or governance.   It doesn't even have class rules (they've been copied and pasted from the copyrighted ILCA ones with a find and replace) which are legitimate.

Yet LP has thrown a bunch of money at it by "purchasing" currently worthless stickers, and that money is currently being used to fly Beat Heinz around the world to put on a good show and claim legitimacy.  Nice job! I might have taken it too...

TLC can claim all they want about being "by the sailors, for the sailors", "transparent and all about preserving one design principles", etc but the fact is it's set up by LPE to try and split the laser class and give them somewhere to sell their wares since they've been kicked out of the game by the class association which *IS* all of the things this new "class association" claims to be but isn't.

 

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7 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

In that case your argument doesn't work - those boats are ultimately bought by sailors.  It's not PSA funding ILCA it's the sailors through their purchase of class legal equipment.

The Laser Class isn't what it claims to be. 

It's not a class association with paying members, it's not recognised by world sailing, there's already a class association for that class of boat, it can't organise a world championship and it doesn't own the trophies that people want, doesn't have any elected officers or governance.   It doesn't even have class rules (they've been copied and pasted from the copyrighted ILCA ones with a find and replace) which are legitimate.

Yet LP has thrown a bunch of money at it by "purchasing" currently worthless stickers, and that money is currently being used to fly Beat Heinz around the world to put on a good show and claim legitimacy.  Nice job! I might have taken it too...

TLC can claim all they want about being "by the sailors, for the sailors", "transparent and all about preserving one design principles", etc but the fact is it's set up by LPE to try and split the laser class and give them somewhere to sell their wares since they've been kicked out of the game by the class association which *IS* all of the things this new "class association" claims to be but isn't.

 

Agreed the sailors fund ILCA by buying boats from PSA. PSA make more profit from building boats than ILCA get from the licence fees. So you are correct. PSA don't pay ILCA. So why did ILCA measurers allow non complying boats to be built by PSA, was it just to piss off LP or was it just incompetent class governance? 

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it's fairly obvious TLC is a front for LP...  Beat and Heini on the payroll as LP wanted, so LP selling "TLC" Plaques to themselves
thelaserclass-jpg.36496

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1 hour ago, winchfodder said:

PSA clearly funding ICLA as they have already been given licence to build charter fleets for all the Championships plus the Olympics. 

Is this so?  I think PSJ will build the 2020 Olympic boats, has the supply for Paris 2024 been determined?  How does giving exclusive rights to supply for championships meet FRAND?

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16 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Agreed the sailors fund ILCA by buying boats from PSA. PSA make more profit from building boats than ILCA get from the licence fees. So you are correct. PSA don't pay ILCA. So why did ILCA measurers allow non complying boats to be built by PSA, was it just to piss off LP or was it just incompetent class governance? 

There's a complex issue here that people who aren't competitively sailing in the class don't realise exists.

No two boats from LPE are the same.  Ok, slight exaggeration.. some of them happen to be the same by chance.  The laser being a strict one design means that if the rules don't say you can do it, you can't do it.  That's all.  The class rules do not comprehensively define the specification for the boat.  It says nothing about the boats all being the same.  They are not.

 

The construction manual itself has enough leeway/tolerance/difference in the things that it *does* define, that even without PSA changing the layup the boats were not the same.  And not to mention the things that it doesn't define...

 

From what I understand, and I have no inside information, PSA made some construction changes to stop the boats failing and falling apart. Probably the wrong way to go about things, but when one of the builders for the class is playing silly buggers the whole time and won't co-operate with anyone else...

The class reviewed the situation when it was brought to their attention, decided that it was actually a good idea, and approved the change.  LPE then started building boats using the new layup.   Were those boats quicker?  I didn't see any evidence of it. Do they last longer? Yes.  Do they still fail in unacceptable ways when you buy them from LPE, yes.

The exclaimation that "but they broke the one-designess of the laser!" is based on the incorrect understanding that the boats have always been the same.  They haven't.  In much more meaningful ways than this.

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6 minutes ago, JMP said:

it's fairly obvious TLC is a front for LP...  Beat and Heini on the payroll as LP wanted
thelaserclass-jpg.36496

At least they had the balls to publicly confirm it, even if it was dressed up in a frock.  People need to call this out...

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There is no real difference between the relationship of LP/TLC and PSA/ILCA.  One is a builder without a class, the other is a class without a builder.  It will be fun finding out whether it is easier to find a builder or create a class. 

I reckon Tyson Fury is TLC and Joshua is ILCA.  Bring it on before Christmas I say!

 

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2 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

There is no real difference between the relationship of LP/TLC and PSA/ILCA.  One is a builder without a class, the other is a class without a builder.  It will be fun finding out whether it is easier to find a builder or create a class. 

I reckon Tyson Fury is TLC and Joshua is ILCA.  Bring it on before Christmas I say!

 

I respectfully disagree. TLC exists because LP created it last week.  ILCA exists because of its members and its status and has not been created by a disgruntled former builder.  They are not the same.

 

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We will have to agree to disagree. 

I don't fancy the long term chances of TLC, but I also don't fancy the long term chances of the seven new ILCA builders. 

Everyone is far better off getting either an OK (ILCA members) or Aero (LP members) and consigning this whole farce to history. 

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17 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

We will have to agree to disagree. 

I don't fancy the long term chances of TLC, but I also don't fancy the long term chances of the seven new ILCA builders. 

Everyone is far better off getting either an OK (ILCA members) or Aero (LP members) and consigning this whole farce to history. 

Me neither, there's bound to be some harsh rationalisation. Unfortunately the OK is for fat blokes who can't hike :P

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15 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

Me neither, there's bound to be some harsh rationalisation. Unfortunately the OK is for fat blokes who can't hike :P

How about a Solo for less fat old blokes

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29 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

How about a Solo for less fat old blokes

I sail a Solo, but didn’t think it international enough for this forum. OK’s look the bees knees though. 

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8 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I sail a Solo, but didn’t think it international enough for this forum. OK’s look the bees knees though. 

All three (inc Aero) are I understand far nicer to sail than a Laser! (Not another thread coming!)

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31 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I sail a Solo, but didn’t think it international enough for this forum. OK’s look the bees knees though. 

Gramps had a Contender in one of the barns that I took out sailing last year. Fun boat 

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20 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

All three (inc Aero) are I understand far nicer to sail than a Laser! (Not another thread coming!)

Enough with the 3rd party.  Tell what you know.

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6 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Enough with the 3rd party.  Tell what you know.

I think we can leave that to tillerman

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On 3/2/2020 at 7:32 PM, Bruce Hudson said:

 

Wellmann (correct spelling) misinforms because there were no patents. If you take a pig-headed approach, place your head in the sand, yes, Wellmann was true because he repeated what others stated.

You give your opinion based on the 'alternate fact' that Wellmann didn't mislead.

Most thinking people thought he did. Great to know you are an exception.

 

Whooa.  So are you saying that your entire premise behind publicly accusing Heini Wellman of being a liar and making misleading statements narrows down to the fact that he used the  word "design patents" instead of "design copyright". 

When Heini was trying to explain to members that the rule had been introduced when Bruce Kirby claimed ownership to design rights to the Laser and that those design rights had long since expired ....he referred to "design patents" instead of "design copyright"

1. I doubt that 2% of Laser Class members know or care about the difference between a design patent and a design copyright.

2. I doubt that the ILCA ever knew with any degree of certainty precisely what design rights Bruce actually owned......but whatever design rights he might or might not have owned, they would long since have expired by 2013 when HW made the statement.

3. HW made it clear he was passing on to members the advice he had received from lawyers.....who most certainly would have told him that whatever design rights existed in the Laser, whether registered patents or a design copyright , would have expired by 2013.

 

Heini was not lying . Heini was not being misleading.  He was advising class members that there was no reason based on design rights to retain the class rule. Any design rights that existed at the time the rule was drafted had long since expired.

He also advised the class that there were, in his opinion, some compelling reasons to get rid of the rule.  You disagreed with that opinion',and you are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to call the man a liar or misleading.

FWIW I believe history has proved HW to be right as regards to the reasons to get rid of the rule, and proved you to be wrong....but that is another debate.

 

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.....presently preparing to race my Laser when my ski season ends Easter Monday.  Are there seriously people who do not sail because of the present contretemps

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13 hours ago, sosoomii said:

... I think PSJ will build the 2020 Olympic boats, has the supply for Paris 2024 been determined? .....

Paris 2024 is too far away. IIRC, there was something in the Olympic boat selection process (WS Constitution?) which allows WS to make last minute changes, including selecting different boat. We have to wait and see how all this fustercluck unfolds before talking about Paris.

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15 hours ago, NotAnIdiot said:

I respectfully disagree. TLC exists because LP created it last week.  ILCA exists because of its members and its status and has not been created by a disgruntled former builder.  They are not the same.

NotAn, I don't think that's right: TLC certainly has LP's backing but is also rooted in the EurILCA membership that objected to ILCA's refusal to reinstate LP as a builder without what appears to be substantial interference with their business.

  EurILCA have consistently asserted that the majority of ILCA members are based in Europe and served by LP; they were told by ILCA last year that they could expect LP to be reinstated quickly (perhaps "soon" was used? :-)  and backed off for several months before firing warning shots at the end of the year that they would take action if ILCA didn't progress.

 If TLC does indeed embrace the majority of Laser Class members and furthermore is backed by the biggest builder of boats, it may be wise not to write them off too quickly.  The question of how WS will deal with the challenge is interesting- Clean was quite quick to assert that they could restrict TLC, citing the Sunfish example of which I know nothing,  and I have no reason to disagree with him... but IPLore's point about WS recognising any(?) class with sufficient members remains unanswered, AFIAK... and the approach of building membership by making it free for the first couple of years suggests that TLC are keen to grow quickly.

 There still doesn't appear to be any sign of any Good Guys in this bit of the Laser story and I'm not expecting any white knights to come to the rescue. 

Cheers,

              W.

 

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22 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

NotAn, I don't think that's right: TLC certainly has LP's backing but is also rooted in the EurILCA membership that objected to ILCA's refusal to reinstate LP as a builder without what appears to be substantial interference with their business.

  EurILCA have consistently asserted that the majority of ILCA members are based in Europe and served by LP; they were told by ILCA last year that they could expect LP to be reinstated quickly (perhaps "soon" was used? :-)  and backed off for several months before firing warning shots at the end of the year that they would take action if ILCA didn't progress.

 If TLC does indeed embrace the majority of Laser Class members and furthermore is backed by the biggest builder of boats, it may be wise not to write them off too quickly.  The question of how WS will deal with the challenge is interesting- Clean was quite quick to assert that they could restrict TLC, citing the Sunfish example of which I know nothing,  and I have no reason to disagree with him... but IPLore's point about WS recognising any(?) class with sufficient members remains unanswered, AFIAK... and the approach of building membership by making it free for the first couple of years suggests that TLC are keen to grow quickly.

 There still doesn't appear to be any sign of any Good Guys in this bit of the Laser story and I'm not expecting any white knights to come to the rescue. 

Cheers,

              W.

 

Except the majority of class members voted for the ILCA proposal which removed the requirement for the Laser trademark.  ILCA was quite clear that this was needed in case LPE or another of the existing builders needed to be ditched.  The EURILCA committee might not like it, but the only information we have about its popularity is that the sailors voted for it.    EURILCA hasn't asked its "members" (it doesn't actually have any, people are members of their national class) anything... 

How do I know? I am one, and I haven't been asked. The first time EURILCA asked my national association about it was last week.

LPE have a long history of messing everyone around, so the fact that they haven't been re-instated is probably their own damn fault.  The only sailors who are sad to see them go are the ones who have got lucky and haven't had to try and get them to take responsibility for shoddy workmanship, failed parts, bad behaviour etc.  If people want to jump ship from ILCA and get into bed with a class run by LPE then they'll get what they deserve.

Just look at this article they've published on their website:

https://laserperformance.uk/pages/why-is-laserperformance-still-not-an-approved-ilca-builder

 

There's stuff in there that it's trivial to show simply isn't true.  The pricing comparisons they make are disgracefully misleading.   They lie through their teeth about everything.  Regardless of that if you read between the lines it sounds like ILCA have asked LPE to accept the terms that have been accepted by all the existing and new builders and they refuse.  They don't accept that the class voted to not give a damn about their silly trademark.  They don't realise that the monopoly they've enjoyed previously was a privileged gift that was granted by the class rules and it's been taken away.  That's why they've not been re-instated.  Boo-hoo, poor them!

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30 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

Except the majority of class members voted for the ILCA proposal which removed the requirement for the Laser trademark.  ILCA was quite clear that this was needed in case LPE or another of the existing builders needed to be ditched.  The EURILCA committee might not like it, but the only information we have about its popularity is that the sailors voted for it.    EURILCA hasn't asked its "members" (it doesn't actually have any, people are members of their national class) anything... 

How do I know? I am one, and I haven't been asked. The first time EURILCA asked my national association about it was last week.

LPE have a long history of messing everyone around, so the fact that they haven't been re-instated is probably their own damn fault.  The only sailors who are sad to see them go are the ones who have got lucky and haven't had to try and get them to take responsibility for shoddy workmanship, failed parts, bad behaviour etc.  If people want to jump ship from ILCA and get into bed with a class run by LPE then they'll get what they deserve.

Just look at this article they've published on their website:

https://laserperformance.uk/pages/why-is-laserperformance-still-not-an-approved-ilca-builder

 

There's stuff in there that it's trivial to show simply isn't true.  The pricing comparisons they make are disgracefully misleading.   They lie through their teeth about everything.  Regardless of that if you read between the lines it sounds like ILCA have asked LPE to accept the terms that have been accepted by all the existing and new builders and they refuse.  They don't accept that the class voted to not give a damn about their silly trademark.  They don't realise that the monopoly they've enjoyed previously was a privileged gift that was granted by the class rules and it's been taken away.  That's why they've not been re-instated.  Boo-hoo, poor them!

 What's your point, NotAn?    I'm not defending LP (as you should be able to read into my closing sentence). I'm just pointing out that there's substantially more to TLC than just an LP  grievance...  and that you may be overstating the strength of ILCA's position. I get that you don't like LPE-  lots of people posting on these threads are strongly agin them but it can be helpful to bear in mind that they still have substantial support from a substantial number of people that have been buying a substantial quantity of their products.

Cheers,

               W.

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15 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

 What's your point, NotAn?    I'm not defending LP (as you should be able to read into my closing sentence). I'm just pointing out that there's substantially more to TLC than just an LP  grievance...  and that you may be overstating the strength of ILCA's position. I get that you don't like LPE-  lots of people posting on these threads are strongly agin them but it can be helpful to bear in mind that they still have substantial support from a substantial number of people that have been buying a substantial quantity of their products.

Cheers,

               W.

I'm just calling out BS when I see it.  I don't mean what you've said, I mean what LPE and TLC are saying.  The class is going through a dangerous transition and we shouldn't tolerate blatant misinformation and lies.

Over the years I've given (quickly adds it up...) about £30k to Laser Performance and they've treated me like shit without fail.  They flagrantly break the law.  I've bought things from them because I had to to compete in the best dinghy class in the history of our sport, because the class rules granted them an amazing privilege.  I'm not sure you can reduce that down to "support" and I've got no doubt that we're better off without them.

Specifically on what the TLC are about I'm not convinced - it's what they claim but their claims don't make sense, and they've been created by LPE.

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4 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

Over the years I've given (quickly adds it up...) about £30k to Laser Performance and they've treated me like shit without fail...  I've bought things from them because I had to to compete in the best dinghy class in the history of our sport,

Ouch.  My approach to not being a satisfied customer was to buy into a different class - the racing is just as good unless you are desperate for international competition.

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1 minute ago, NotAnIdiot said:

I'm just calling out BS when I see it.  I don't mean what you've said, I mean what LPE and TLC are saying.  The class is going through a dangerous transition and we shouldn't tolerate blatant misinformation and lies.

Over the years I've given (quickly adds it up...) about £30k to Laser Performance and they've treated me like shit without fail.  They flagrantly break the law.  I've bought things from them because I had to to compete in the best dinghy class in the history of our sport, because the class rules granted them an amazing privilege.  I'm not sure you can reduce that down to "support" and I've got no doubt that we're better off without them.

 

I get your point but don't share your conviction. There's a lot of BS around and not all of it is coming from LPE & TLC.  To counter with some of my own experience, I have not dealt with LP directly to any great extent but their local dealer has provided excellent service to me personally, many sailors I know and the class in general.

Undermining that business in the way that the ILCA leadership has done does not endear me to them, and I suspect that there are more people in Europe that feel similarly than many contributors here realise.

Cheers,

               W.

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Ouch.  My approach to not being a satisfied customer was to buy into a different class - the racing is just as good unless you are desperate for international competition.

Yeah, unfortunately that's the difference I want.  There aren't many classes where you can pick and choose from a range of international events with large, quality fleets throughout the year!  Believe it or not I also love the boat, because of not in spite of its flaws.

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