Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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23 minutes ago, johncwren said:

Does anyone in this disaster of a thread actually sail lasers?  What a fucking joke.

There's a bunch of trolls wasting bandwidth endlessly... but a few who do, myself included.

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42 minutes ago, johncwren said:

Does anyone in this disaster of a thread actually sail lasers?  What a fucking joke.

Clearly you don't or you would recognize some from our avatars. Now shoo!

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14 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Your ski season needs to end on Good Friday so you csn race in Austin on Easter weekend 

I will get there one of these days. 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Clearly you don't or you would recognize some from our avatars. Now shoo!

He does or at least did.  Try to keep up LOL.  You don't even recognize your brother lemmings!!

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As I’ve said before, if you want this thread to be for current ILCA/TLC/Laser sailors only go host it on one of their websites. 

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16 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

As I’ve said before, if you want this thread to be for current ILCA/TLC/Laser sailors only go host it on one of their websites. 

No one goes there.  Just like none of the European class members apparently cared enough to vote in August and are now all pissed with the results.  It's like I've always said when someone bitches about who's President.  If you don't vote you can't complain.  

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16 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

No one goes there. 

Well there are then.  Laser sailors are lazy and apathetic as well as tight ;)  

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20 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

No one goes there.  Just like none of the European class members apparently cared enough to vote in August and are now all pissed with the results.  It's like I've always said when someone bitches about who's President.  If you don't vote you can't complain.  

Lots of people choose not to vote because they don't want to lend credibility  to a system or process they perceive as flawed by participating in it. Unfortunately that is indistinguishable from complacency, apathy, acquiescence or any combination thereof.

Just saying.

                       W.

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34 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Lots of people choose not to vote because they don't want to lend credibility  to a system or process they perceive as flawed by participating in it. Unfortunately that is indistinguishable from complacency, apathy, acquiescence or any combination thereof.

Just saying.

                       W.

IMHO nothing takes credibility away from an idea more than rejecting it...."Just say No."?

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44 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Well there are then.  Laser sailors are lazy and apathetic as well as tight ;)  

Some agreement here.  I've seen some lazy, some apathy and low, low budget programs.  Some are by necessity, (which is still a great thing about the class- always an affordable entry price with 220,000 boats around) and some "just because".  I'd ad that sailors in general have a bit of a reputation for being "Cheap".  When you talk to dock hands at transient docks they say the sailors never tip like the power boaters do.  However, I counter argue it's mostly because we're much more of the D.I.Y. type and prefer not to pay for things we can do ourselves.

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3 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

However, I counter argue it's mostly because we're much more of the D.I.Y. type and prefer not to pay for things we can do ourselves.

Yep. 

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IIRC the vote was under attended by European districts. 

Not only will TLC not work due to WS, but the high chance that LP won't be able to continue building boats, both due to legal costs and other potential roadblocks 

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1 hour ago, greenwhiteblack said:

IIRC the vote was under attended by European districts. 

Not only will TLC not work due to WS, but the high chance that LP won't be able to continue building boats, both due to legal costs and other potential roadblocks 

LP will need to get Global Sailing's agreement to use the "Laser" name and starburst in the territories PSA and PSJ have the rights to also, so in their current state they can't have dealers sell LP "Lasers" world-wide.  Probably not concerned about that anyway as I'd say they're heavily euro focused. 

Not sure if being able to have readily available supply world-wide comes into the decision matrix for WS for a new class, or if a WS "Sponsorship" from McLaren will be enough to get them through :p

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8 hours ago, JMP said:

Not sure if being able to have readily available supply world-wide comes into the decision matrix for WS for a new class, or if a WS "Sponsorship" from McLaren will be enough to get them through 

To qualify as an International class a dinghy class needs to be signed up with at least 15 boats at each of 5 National authorities on 2 continents. In practice the second continent may be very sketchy indeed, and some, even most 'International' classes are highly parochial. It might be observed, for instance, that its probably not beyond LP llcs resources to gift a fleet of Lasers to some non-european NA in order to meet the criteria. 

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Where LP failed with their ISCO last time was World Sailing's Regulation 10.2.1(b), where they needed the approval of the pre-existing class association.  Will be interesting to see if they can get to the world council vote stage in November or if the application is rejected before then.  Can't really see ILCA approving the introduction of TLC, same way ISCA denied the introduction of ISCO.

The vast majority of ILCA members sail "Lasers", with a spattering of ILCA's, but I guess time will tell and we'll wait and see what happens at the World Sailing meeting in November :)

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1 hour ago, JMP said:

Where LP failed with their ISCO last time was World Sailing's Regulation 10.2.1(b), where they needed the approval of the pre-existing class association. 

But might LP argue that this is a different class of boat and therefore there is no pre-existing class association? 

Both sides agree there are differences in the build of the boats.

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a different class of boat that accepts boats from the ILCA class :)  Interesting times ahead!

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I love this place. Sometimes informative, sometimes funny, sometimes the best fishing in the state. 

It seems we need more classes so I am going to support that Torch idea.  Already have the belt and T-shirts.  Where can I buy that boat?

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3 hours ago, JimC said:

To qualify as an International class a dinghy class needs to be signed up with at least 15 boats at each of 5 National authorities on 2 continents. In practice the second continent may be very sketchy indeed, and some, even most 'International' classes are highly parochial. I

World Sailing Class Entry Guidelines Appendix B World Sailing Class Criteria Regulation 10 

Obtaining designation as a World Sailing Class Association

10.2  blah blah blah

10.2.1 In order to be so designated a Class must be able to meet the following criteria, detailed in an application to the Chief Executive Officer, for consideration by Council at the next scheduled meeting,

  1. (a)  an active Class/Owners Association;

  2. blah blah

  3. blah

  4. (d)  demonstrated, either by confirmation from the requisite number of Member National Authorities (MNAs) set out below or a list of registered boat owners, that it is ‘actively racing’ with at least the following global distribution:

Then follows a table which lays out the 15 boat requirement for each national class for boats up to 6.0m.

What if 15 current Laser owners in the USA joined The Laser Class?  In the absence of any help from the MNA (US Sailing) could they simply submit their names - perhaps with some recent regatta reports (e.g. The Easter Regatta in Austin) - to show that they are all members of The Laser Class actively racing their Lasers? Would that be enough to meet the requirement of Appendix B 10.2.4? Assuming that the same could be done in 4 European countries, would that satisfy the 2 continent 5 country requirement to be accepted as a World Sailing Class?

Asking on behalf of 14 friends...

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2 hours ago, JMP said:

a different class of boat that accepts boats from the ILCA class :)  Interesting times ahead!

How can the ILCA be a WS recognised class. They don't seem to have enough boats in different countries and regattas? They haven't been around long enough to qualify. 

 

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6 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

How can the ILCA be a WS recognised class. They don't seem to have enough boats in different countries and regattas? They haven't been around long enough to qualify. 

 

So, if you read through the ILCA paper work, (which class members were given the opportunity to vote on in July) it states, "Any LASER built by LPE, (the only builder in question) and carrying the ILCA /'Laser Class Approved Plaque is considered an ILCA class boat."  

 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

World Sailing Class Entry Guidelines Appendix B World Sailing Class Criteria Regulation 10 

Obtaining designation as a World Sailing Class Association

blah blah blah

Then follows a table which lays out the 15 boat requirement for each national class for boats up to 6.0m.

What if 15 current Laser owners in the USA joined The Laser Class?  In the absence of any help from the MNA (US Sailing) could they simply submit their names - perhaps with some recent regatta reports (e.g. The Easter Regatta in Austin) - to show that they are all members of The Laser Class actively racing their Lasers? Would that be enough to meet the requirement of Appendix B 10.2.4? Assuming that the same could be done in 4 European countries, would that satisfy the 2 continent 5 country requirement to be accepted as a World Sailing Class?

Asking on behalf of 14 friends...

Only one way to find out. But to what end? With all the shit involved with WS, why would they want to become an international class in the first place? So much for the grassroots movement. (Although it already exists)

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13 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Only one way to find out. But to what end? With all the shit involved with WS, why would they want to become an international class in the first place? So much for the grassroots movement. (Although it already exists)

If The Laser Class achieves World Sailing Class status we could run Laser Class World Championships. Grassroots sailors would be welcome to participate - unlike the ILCA Worlds which are very exclusive. Or maybe we should just skip that stage and hold a Laser Class Intergalactic Championship?

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

I love this place. Sometimes informative, sometimes funny, sometimes the best fishing in the state. 

It seems we need more classes so I am going to support that Torch idea.  Already have the belt and T-shirts.  Where can I buy that boat?

Can d/l all of the high res graphics at Torch website and homebrew your own. That's what I'm doing.

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24 minutes ago, tillerman said:

If The Laser Class achieves World Sailing Class status we could run Laser Class World Championships. Grassroots sailors would be welcome to participate - unlike the ILCA Worlds which are very exclusive. Or maybe we should just skip that stage and hold a Laser Class Intergalactic Championship?

ILCA is very exclusive.  I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend that due to all the litigation it is recommended that there be a rule that you have to be a lawyer, liar, or lawn mower to sail an ILCA in an ILCA event.

 

Wow, that is a some bad music.  I truly am sorry for this post...

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8 minutes ago, Wess said:

Wow, that is a some bad music.  I truly am sorry for this post...

i can forgive all the posts about ILCA, but this...

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24 minutes ago, Wess said:

ILCA is very exclusive.  I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend that due to all the litigation it is recommended that there be a rule that you have to be a lawyer, liar, or lawn mower to sail an ILCA in an ILCA event.

 

What if you are a "dick" as certified by a member of the ILCA World Council? I assume that would be fine?

Asking for a friend.

 

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9 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Whoever wrote the article anonymously linked by whoever anonymously authors the VWAP posts doesn’t seem to appreciate the fact another group of well known experienced sailing association administrators in Europe is doing its very best to support Laser sailing. 
It seems to this author the two groups and Laser sailors everywhere might benefit from the a well administrated 
F.U.C.K. Y.O.U.

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31 minutes ago, tillerman said:

What if you are a "dick" as certified by a member of the ILCA World Council? I assume that would be fine?

Asking for a friend.

 

No, that is not allowed unless a lawyer, liar or lawnmower.  If a dick but not a member of the aforementioned groups you can not sail an ILCA.  You must then sail a Laser, a UFO or a cruising tri.  So how does a lying dick get on the world council you ask?

There is a caveat.  If you are a dick but STFU, and let them and others pick your pockets clean they will let you in.  While there are lots of sailors of said boats and naming variations of same, very few of the owners actually join so they are kinda hard up for cash.

 

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Those who think the branding on the boat gives the class its name, weren't paying attention at the last few Olympics.

Image result for laser olympics 2016

Above is the men's Laser class, at Rio.

Below is the World Women's Laser fleet:

Image result for laser world championships womens

Here's how the world sees it:

image.png.40c86b249cd8bba210f664d10348161d.png

All the news media talk about the Laser class, run by the International Laser Class Association (ILCA). The branding does not matter.

Yet:

2 hours ago, winchfodder said:

How can the ILCA be a WS recognised class. They don't seem to have enough boats in different countries and regattas? They haven't been around long enough to qualify. 

What is being pushed here is an alternate reality.

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There is some really interesting language in that latest presser from ILCA.

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1 minute ago, Wess said:

There is some really interesting language in that latest presser from ILCA.

I did not see the words:

Thank you for supporting Laser sailing

 

The European guys must be heartbroken 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

ILCA is very exclusive.  I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend that due to all the litigation it is recommended that there be a rule that you have to be a lawyer, liar, or lawn mower to sail an ILCA in an ILCA event.

 

What if you are an idiot as certified by a lawnmower? Can such a person be a member of ILCA?

Asking for a friend.
 

 

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6 minutes ago, tillerman said:

What if you are an idiot as certified by a lawnmower? Can such a person be a member of ILCA?

Asking for a friend.
 

 

No, those folks have to sail Aeros.  Oddly enough the one thing all LASER sailors agree is that these poor sailors and boats are akin to the Yangtze finless porpoise.

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28 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

One thing is certain, the Laser guys need a landscaping service 

If you are fishing for the big bald chrome dome the Bold/italics/singlecap lure doesn't work all that well.  All caps seems to work better like this... 

  * Why does the ILCA class keep making reference to sailing a LASER in the Olympics in a territory where LPE holds that trademark? 

  * Is there likely to be litigation around this continued use of the LPE trademark LASER by ILCA or is it just some confusing mess that will never end?

Be warned though there is a lawnmower that hits just about anything cast out there.

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55 minutes ago, VWAP said:

That's very disappointing. A prompt response, too, suggesting that they were expecting this and had already taken a position.

 Perhaps an appearance, at least, of some compromise or constructive engagement would have been helpful. It seems counterproductive to antagonise a significant event sponsor and further provoke a constituency of their own membership.

 Any bets on ILCA's next move?   I'm thinking that they will want to make some (further?) subtle changes to the build process to ensure that "ILCA"s are "better" than "Lasers"... I'm guessing they won't want to be in a position where people expect to be able to sail Lasers at their events, so will want to differentiate.  Otherwise, if "ILCA"s and Lasers are functionally identical then there would be a (bigger?) risk that national associations allow sailors to compete and qualify in cheaper Lasers, only using supplied or chartered boats for major events. 

 What do ILCA/PSA  have to lose by taking up LP's offer of being approved as Laser builders? It would surely suit the sailors to continue to have one-design.

Cheers,

                W.

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Quick FYI, in case anyone's interested: The UKLA issued an update  after the Dinghy Show which reports "...severe equipment shortages" (that might please some who have been aggrieved that supply has been adequate in much of Europe) and also states that  "The UKLA is not associated with ‘The Laser Class’ which launched its website at the Dinghy Show. However, we are looking forward to open dialogue and cooperation in order to ensure more and better sailing for UKLA’s Membership.", which is surely a desireable outcome:   who doesn't want open dialogue, cooperation and more and better sailing?

Cheers,

                 W.

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20 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

...

 What do ILCA/PSA  have to lose by taking up LP's offer of being approved as Laser builders? It would surely suit the sailors to continue to have one-design.

...

What offer?  All indications are that ball is in LP's court.  They can either accept the same terms as all the other builders or GTFO.  I expect it's the same situation as with the FRAND agreement they posted...

 

"We've signed the ILCA/WS Frand agreement!" says LP.

Someone with functioning eyes and brain looks more closely...

They've changed it to suit themselves (in MS paint) and then signed it.

So a big fat lie.

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When two parties are battling for power  and public opinion is considered to be an effective tool, each side will do its very best to manipulate public opinion. 

A favorite:

”Our side is being absolutely reasonable. We offered a solution and the other side hasn’t bothered to respond.”

Of course the “solution” offered always has been fundamentally unacceptable to the other side. 

You can look at virtually any conflict in history and find use of this well worn ploy. 
 

When you look closely at the press releases and public statements they all say the same thing: 

“We will happily settle whenever the other guys capitulate.”

****
This seemingly endless conflict remains ongoing because neither side has its priorities in an order that allows a solution. 
 

For each side the number one priority is to be in charge 

The solutions will only happen when both sides share the following position:

We want to have the most butts on boats we can possibly have and we will be happy to support each other And work together to help that happen. 
 

 

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53 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

That's very disappointing. A prompt response, too, suggesting that they were expecting this and had already taken a position.

Bearing in mind that LP LLc have previously tried exactly the same thing with the Sunfish Association it was a rather obvious scenario to anticipate.

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4 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

What offer?  All indications are that ball is in LP's court.  They can either accept the same terms as all the other builders or GTFO.  I expect it's the same situation as with the FRAND agreement they posted...

 

"We've signed the ILCA/WS Frand agreement!" says LP.

Someone with functioning eyes and brain looks more closely...

They've changed it to suit themselves (in MS paint) and then signed it.

So a big fat lie.

NotAn,

              It's in their announcement: "The Japanese and the Australian builders are however invited to apply to become builders in their respective Laser territories, according to The Laser Class website."

 Yes, they modified it... What I'm suggesting above is that is would be helpful if ILCA also made some adjustments, perhaps acknowledging that as a trademark holder and majority supplier to most of their membership their situation is slightly different to the new and other builders.

  I would have thought that was fairly easy to work out.

 Any thoughts on why ILCA/PSA wouldn't want to become Laser Builders?

Cheers,

               W.

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Just now, JimC said:

Bearing in mind that LP LLc have previously tried exactly the same thing with the Sunfish Association it was a rather obvious scenario to anticipate.

Did the Sunfish class attempt to destroy LP’s business by changing the name of the boat, arranging new deals with other manufacturers, and banishing boats built by LP from their events? 
 

 

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14 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

NotAn,

              It's in their announcement: "The Japanese and the Australian builders are however invited to apply to become builders in their respective Laser territories, according to The Laser Class website."

 Yes, they modified it... What I'm suggesting above is that is would be helpful if ILCA also made some adjustments, perhaps acknowledging that as a trademark holder and majority supplier to most of their membership their situation is slightly different to the new and other builders.

  I would have thought that was fairly easy to work out.

 Any thoughts on why ILCA/PSA wouldn't want to become Laser Builders?

Cheers,

               W.

I disagree - LP needs to understand that the customer (ILCA members) has the ultimate leverage.  The tolerance for them screwing around has expired.

As to whether PSA (it's not ILCA/PSA) would become a laser builder, I seriously doubt it.  It's not a legitimate class association and it doesn't have any class rules, paying members, elected officials or events.   Why would they support it?  It's better for them if ILCA survives.

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16 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Did the Sunfish class attempt to destroy LP’s business by changing the name of the boat, arranging new deals with other manufacturers, and banishing boats built by LP from their events? 
 

 

Total straw man.

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20 minutes ago, JimC said:

Bearing in mind that LP LLc have previously tried exactly the same thing with the Sunfish Association it was a rather obvious scenario to anticipate.

With the Sunfish, LP had ZERO support from sailors for their faux class.  TLC appears to at least have some grassroots support, even if limited to European masters sailors.

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22 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

attempt to destroy LP’s business 

 

that's a weird way to characterize LP's clear default on a contract they signed and the consequences that followed. 

"She was asking for it"

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9 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

I disagree - LP needs to understand that the customer (ILCA members) has the ultimate leverage. 

Ah now, this is near the crux of the matter.  ILCA members are a subset of Laser customers, there are many others.  And these others are being treated with contempt by ILCA.  

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24 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

that's a weird way to characterize LP's clear default on a contract they signed and the consequences that followed. 

"She was asking for it"

I have not seen the contract and cannot comment about the definition of inspections, scheduling, or hiw such inspections had been scheduled and conducted in the past. 
 

My impression is the inspections  were never anything like , “Every second Tuesday of every third month at 9 am inspectors will take samples of resins, fiberglass, core materials, and determine whether the factory machinery is properly calibrated for the current weather conditions.”

Rumors say, the so called inspections rarely happened and the sudden interest in having an “inspection” was not well received for reasons having nothing to do with attempting to violate the construction manual.

Translation, I don’t think the bru Ha Ha about inspections can  reasonably be reasonably described as a simple violation of a well defined contractual agreement. 
 

I do believe the ILCA officers had been continually frustrated by LP’s pathetic efforts to supply toys for the North American Sailing game. 

I do believe the inspection refusal was an available excuse for the extremely frustrated ILCA officers to claim “gottcha.” 
 

I am absolutely certain the relationship between those who wish to organize north American  Laser races, dealers who used to sell Lasers in North America, and LP has been horrendously dysfunctional for the last decade. 
 

I do not see how picking sides, calling each other names, and refusing to Help each other succeed in putting butts on Lasers will lead to a better future for the sailing game.

 


 

 

 

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1 hour ago, WGWarburton said:

NotAn,

              It's in their announcement: "The Japanese and the Australian builders are however invited to apply to become builders in their respective Laser territories, according to The Laser Class website."

 Yes, they modified it... What I'm suggesting above is that is would be helpful if ILCA also made some adjustments, perhaps acknowledging that as a trademark holder and majority supplier to most of their membership their situation is slightly different to the new and other builders.

  I would have thought that was fairly easy to work out.

 Any thoughts on why ILCA/PSA wouldn't want to become Laser Builders?

Cheers,

               W.

Um I don't know.  Maybe, just maybe because LPE will screw them over in the process?  Just a wild assed guess....

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55 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

"She was asking for it"

Over and over and over again for God's sake.

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52 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Ah now, this is near the crux of the matter.  ILCA members are a subset of Laser customers, there are many others.  And these others are being treated with contempt by ILCA.  

I disagree.  The contempt here is coming from Heini and his gang.  Their "Announcement" is purposefully a mirror image of what resulted from the ILCA class vote in July.  Accept, that vote didn't have anything to do with removing LPE as an approved builder as that had already been done and justifiably so.  The word Laser and ILCA has nothing to do with this.  My boat has "Laser" on it.  It also has an ILCA plaque.  It's legal to sail in ILCA, (International Laser Class) events just as newly supplied Lasers with the ILCA brand on them are.

Heini , (being a Heini) is working with his small group minions to have "Lasers" that are not ILCA class approved because the builder refuses to let go of his monopolies and/or open his facility to ILCA inspections, (remember- he said WS was welcome to tour his facility anytime.  Not ILCA as class rules require) recognized as a new class.  

In the end this is going to be nothing more than an unfortunate and ugly distraction that will likely leave a long lasting bad taste in the mouth of some old farts but that'll be about it.  The ILCA Laser is the Olympic boat at least through 2024.  That ain't going to change unless the boat and that class of sailing gets dumped altogether by the IOC.

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49 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

I do believe the ILCA officers had been continually frustrated by LP’s pathetic efforts to supply toys for the North American Sailing game. I'm sure as well as continued "stories" from LPE that supply chain issues are being addressed only to see them stay the same or get worse.

I do believe the inspection refusal was an available excuse for the extremely frustrated ILCA officers to claim “gottcha.” - May have been, but it was real.  They still refuse ILCA inspection.  They have welcomed WS to come by.  Now there's 2 wonderful bed fellows!
I am absolutely certain the relationship between those who wish to organize north American  Laser races, dealers who used to sell Lasers in North America, and LP has been horrendously dysfunctional for the last decade. - Agreed

I do not see how picking sides, calling each other names, and refusing to Help each other succeed in putting butts on Lasers will lead to a better future for the sailing game.- Through it all the harsh language and name calling has come from the Heini/Rasty or is that Rasty/Heini group.  Now there's a firm I want to saddle up to! Join us at Rasty Heini- Gold Bond is a proud sponsor! 

ILCA executives have maintained a line of communication and press releases that have been nothing but professional and a little overly optimistic except from a slip or 3 from Andy Roy here and there.  

 

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Seems like this thread needs to focus a little less on ILCA, and a little more of the antics of Heini and the 'TLC'. 

The following has been circulated 'behind the scenes', and no, it wouldn't be appropriate to reveal where I got it from.

 

THE LASER CLASS - EC 588 - Proposal.pdf

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2 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Seems like this thread needs to focus a little less on ILCA, and a little more of the antics of Heini and the 'TLC'. 

The following has been circulated 'behind the scenes', and no, it wouldn't be appropriate to reveal where I got it from.

 

THE LASER CLASS - EC 588 - Proposal.pdf

Not sure but if I read this it would seem that TLC is separate from this... Maybe we will see  three classes?

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This is difficult. Is it more of a train wreck or a dumpster fire 

27A6CE3E-7658-4079-B079-7F08B3489338.jpeg

83B1F107-ED73-4994-A7F6-2E244A6027EC.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Seems like this thread needs to focus a little less on ILCA, and a little more of the antics of Heini and the 'TLC'. 

The following has been circulated 'behind the scenes', and no, it wouldn't be appropriate to reveal where I got it from.

 

THE LASER CLASS - EC 588 - Proposal.pdf

I'm intrigued that you describe this as "antics" (I may be reading too much into the word!), it implies you see a conspiracy!

 It seems a pretty fair statement of the situation, the risks are real (some already issues) and the proposals considered responses to them.

 They state that ILCA has been engaged.

 So, why are ILCA not recognising the issue?  Do they think that this is just a few disgruntled individuals who don't represent a broader constituency? If so, why?

The "Where we are today" section is illuminating... this document doesn't look like it was intended for public circulation, so it's probably reasonable to think it's not a PR effort and the statements reflect perception:  Poor communications, secretive appearance, lack of consultation, failure to progress on key concerns of a significant number of members...

  It would surely be helpful if ILCA would address this concern constructively.

Cheers,

               W.

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4 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

The phrase "naive" springs to mind. I'm no fan of the way ILCA appears to operate, and the previous fundamental rule change was if anything even worse than the most recent one, but that paper, **if genuine**, is really quite remarkable.

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1 hour ago, WGWarburton said:

Do they think that this is just a few disgruntled individuals who don't represent a broader constituency? If so, why?

Why? the voting results I imagine.

If my reading between the lines (always a highly dubious exercise particularly prone to confirmation bias) of UKLA statements is any guide, EurLCA is every bit as good at non-communication and mushroom management as ILCA.

And of course setting up a new CA in secret in partnership with your commercial buddy and without any sign of consultation with the grass roots is not precisely a model of transparency and democracy.

It smacks more of throwing toys out of prams. And do we remember that when throwing toys out of certain prams one needs to be very careful and protective of one's fingers?

 

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13 minutes ago, JimC said:

Why? the voting results I imagine.

They aren't stupid though, are they? They must know that the poll wasn't representative.

13 minutes ago, JimC said:

If my reading between the lines (always a highly dubious exercise particularly prone to confirmation bias) of UKLA statements is any guide, EurLCA is every bit as good at non-communication and mushroom management as ILCA.

Indeed... No Good Guys... :-(

Cheers,

               W.

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On 3/2/2020 at 2:00 PM, torrid said:

Here is the EurILCA leadership.  Looks like Mr. Heinz needs to make a choice one way or another.

 

Interestingly, there is nothing in the EurILCA constitution that prevents an officer from another class association serving as a member of the Executive Committee.  Constitutionally speaking, there is nothing to prevent Beat Heinz serving on TLC and EurILCA.

Here are a few other juicy tidbits from EurILCA's constitution:

Article 1 EurILCA is a European Laser dinghy association.

Article 7 Each district is constituted as a sport association according to the laws of said country. The members of the sport association are sailors from the three Laser Classes or persons and organizations who support and share the association’s ideals.   So, can ILCA Dinghy sailors join EurILCA ?

Article 10 EurILCA’s resources are composed of:
• Contributions from the European Laser builder.
• Fees are fixed by the EAGM, for each competitor who participates in international regattas recognized by EurILCA  Who is "the European Laser builder"? 

Article 7 again;  "persons and organizations who support and share the association’s ideals"  What happens if the Executive committee decides TLC fits this definition?

But there again Article 8 states one goal as: "Create and maintain permanent contact with ILCA and contribute to the achievements of ILCA." 

Article 35 The dissolution of the European Laser Association may not be decided without three quarters of votes of the quorum at the EAGM. Super majority needed to close down.

 

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14 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

Regardless, none of the builders have any signed documents from ILCA, that's a fact.  So, no one has tooling or anything.
No sign of any production happening, and no one picking up the phone at ILCA.

Actually, the above points are the opposite of the reality.

  • Builders have signed documents from ILCA
  • Production efforts are far more advanced than you are indicating 

Posts like this cause many to think this thread is out of touch - and the ILCA WC (Tracy, Andy etc) have offered to answer questions and have followed through - so there is no excuse.

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27 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

PSA must be LOVING this.  Monopoly in the world market - no competition, and no rush for them/Global Sailing to send out agreements to new builders.

But, if EurILCA stands up to the new PSA dictatorship... wow, then we will legit have two classes, for two very similar, but clearly no longer one-design boats.....

This is less a reflection of what is happening, and more a reflection of a set of warped beliefs.

This is entirely consistent with Rastegar's conspiracy theories, both in the legal documents rejected by the courts a few years back, then repeated in the Sailing Illustrated interview with Tom E. These conspiracy theories can't possibly be true because of the actions of all parties, including Laser Performance.

Perhaps we need to step back a little, and thank Blatant Echo's for his best efforts to grasp what's happening, and for his attempts to make a positive contribution to this topic.

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6 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

This is less a reflection of what is happening, and more a reflection of a set of warped beliefs.

This is entirely consistent with Rastegar's conspiracy theories, both in the legal documents rejected by the courts a few years back, then repeated in the Sailing Illustrated interview with Tom E. These conspiracy theories can't possibly be true because of the actions of all parties, including Laser Performance.

Perhaps we need to step back a little, and thank Blatant Echo's for his best efforts to grasp what's happening, and for his attempts to make a positive contribution to this topic.

Bruce-

Interestingly, one of us is deeply involved in this and the other is clearly making things up online.  
I know you aren't involved in these actual deals. Do you know how I know that Bruce?  Because your name doesn't come up in any discussions I have with the direct contacts.
So, all you are proving in the thread is how little YOU know.
I'm talking directly with the people involved. My information is 100% spot on.

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

Interestingly, there is nothing in the EurILCA constitution that prevents an officer from another class association serving as a member of the Executive Committee.  Constitutionally speaking, there is nothing to prevent Beat Heinz serving on TLC and EurILCA.

Here are a few other juicy tidbits from EurILCA's constitution:

Article 1 EurILCA is a European Laser dinghy association.

Article 7 Each district is constituted as a sport association according to the laws of said country. The members of the sport association are sailors from the three Laser Classes or persons and organizations who support and share the association’s ideals.   So, can ILCA Dinghy sailors join EurILCA ?

Article 10 EurILCA’s resources are composed of:
• Contributions from the European Laser builder.
• Fees are fixed by the EAGM, for each competitor who participates in international regattas recognized by EurILCA  Who is "the European Laser builder"? 

Article 7 again;  "persons and organizations who support and share the association’s ideals"  What happens if the Executive committee decides TLC fits this definition?

But there again Article 8 states one goal as: "Create and maintain permanent contact with ILCA and contribute to the achievements of ILCA." 

Article 35 The dissolution of the European Laser Association may not be decided without three quarters of votes of the quorum at the EAGM. Super majority needed to close down.

 

 

This issue here is a new organization which is explicitly aiming to replace the existing one. Perhaps EurILCA's constitution does not explicitly forbid holding seats on multiple boards (does the US Constitution preclude the President from also being President of, say, Russia?), but does that mean an officer should not choose one organization over the other?

What about conflict of interest?

What about the ethically and morally correct thing to do?

What about believing enough in the success of your new organization to not try to keep a foot in the door in case of failure?

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17 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

Bruce- 
I know you aren't involved in these actual deals. Do you know how I know that Bruce?  Because your name doesn't come up in any discussions I have with the direct contacts.
So, all you are proving in the thread is how little YOU know.
I'm talking directly with the people involved. My information is 100% spot on.

First, you are making the assumption that I'm not talking with people directly involved.

I've not claimed to be directly involved. 

A few hours ago, I posted a document from Heini's group. That may give you some indication that I'm in touch with what's going on.

A few minutes ago, you wrote:

1 hour ago, BlatantEcho said:

But, if EurILCA stands up to the new PSA dictatorship... wow, then we will legit have two classes, for two very similar, but clearly no longer one-design boats.....

Then:

17 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

Interestingly, one of us is deeply involved in this and the other is clearly making things up online.  

I agree, we both know I'm not "deeply involved". So is this a statement indicating that you think you are "deeply involved"?

PS: Whether or not you are "deeply involved" maybe you should stop making things up online.

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:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'm not going to argue with you on the internet Bruce. Your facts are wrong. I am sorry if that offends your feelings mate.
I know where the molds are built, I know how many deck and hull molds have been built.
I know there is no ILCA contract signed or even presented to ANY of the 7 builders.
I've provided facts to counter people like yourself who say 'ILCA is perfect and everything is fine' - while the building is burning to the ground.

This thread is full of people spouting rumors and lies. And I'm just hear to counter the claims that people like you make - that are patently false.


 

 

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1 minute ago, BlatantEcho said:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'm not going to argue with you on the internet Bruce. Your facts are wrong. I am sorry if that offends your feelings mate.
I know where the molds are built, I know how many deck and hull molds have been built.
I know there is no ILCA contract signed or even presented to ANY of the 7 builders.
I've provided facts to counter people like yourself who say 'ILCA is perfect and everything is fine' - while the building is burning to the ground.

This thread is full of people spouting rumors and lies. And I'm just hear to counter the claims that people like you make - that are patently false.

Above you say you are not going to argue with me, then directly after saying that, argue with me. I'm not the slightest bit offended by your strange narrative. Was it your intention to promote yourself in this way?

Again, Blatant Echo, you are making stuff up. Please indicate where I have said that "ILCA is perfect and everything is fine"? And having said that, ILCA is not a metaphorical building burning to the ground.

"I know where the molds are built, I know how many deck and hull molds have been built." <--- Great to know. Then you should be able confirm the delivery schedule, so please do tell. (Actually - what you are saying above reveals that you are out of touch - and may have mislead yourself to think you somehow have your finger on the pulse. Delivery dates have been discussed and are imminent, though have yet to be made public. Your statement is either fishing, or out of touch).

"I know there is no ILCA contract signed or even presented to ANY of the 7 builders." <--- False. Shall we ask ILCA for public confirmation? Or simply wait for an announcement (we won't have to wait long).

---

Falsely accusing me of making false statements? Good one.

Remember, I'm the one posting under my real name, and I would be happy for you to post under your real name which may surprise a few. But not me.

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Not sure if this has been posted yet.

ILCA International Circular – Looking to the Future

Saturday, 07 March 2020 15:53

Throughout its 50 year existence, the International Laser Class Association has endured many challenges – 

whether it was the bankruptcy of the founding builder and the business failures of a number of other builders over the decades or the outside attempt to start a separate association with the “Torch” trying to supplant the existing class. And yet the Laser Class has worked to meet these and other challenges and continued to grow to become today the largest adult and youth sailing organization in the world and, significantly, the single-handed Olympic dinghy for both men and women.

While many international class associations organize a single annual world championship, ILCA successfully organizes seven annual world championships with charter support across our three rig variants and various age groups including Radial Women, Radial Men, Standard Men, 4.7 Youth, Radial Youth, Under-21 in both Standard and Radial rigs and the Masters. In addition, there are highly successful regional and district and local championships in many of the rigs and age groups. This is only possible because of the broad support of grassroots of the class — from passionate sailors and hundreds of dedicated volunteers all over the world.

This past year has seen another set of extraordinary challenges for the class: undergoing equipment trials to emerge as selected equipment for the next Olympic cycle and reorganizing builder relations in order to comply with the World Sailing Olympic Equipment Policy necessitated by European Union antitrust law. With the same determination shown by our members competing on the water, the association is on the verge of meeting these challenges to ensure the long-term success of the class.

The process to comply with World Sailing’s Olympic Equipment Policy has presented several significant challenges which have taken a substantial amount of time and effort to address. The fact is that nearly 50 years of activity has resulted in a complex web of contractual relationships, including some for which ILCA is not a party but which directly impact ILCA operations. The good news is that this process is finally nearing completion and new builders will be receiving molds and starting production in the near future.

During this transition, there has been understandable concern over supply, particularly in Europe – the largest region for the class – which had not previously seen many of the supply problems that had been plaguing other regions of the world for many years. While we would all like for this process to happen instantaneously, everyone is working hard to make sure it is done properly. And this takes time.

Additionally, we also appreciate the legacy of the familiar starburst logo on our sails, particularly for long-time class members, some of whom have been sailing the boat since the 1970s. All of us would ideally like to maintain the original logo but, unfortunately, ILCA does not have control over the Laser trademark on boats and sails and cannot unilaterally authorize the use of the starburst on the sails.

It is unfortunate that the company who does control this trademark in certain parts of the world has yet to accept the offer to be an approved builder and build boats in compliance with the ILCA Class Rules. Instead it seems that, with the support of some individuals in Europe who appear unwilling to wait for new approved builders to get up to speed, they are attempting to start a rival organization with the express intent to undermine ILCA and its sailors. It is difficult to see how this benefits sailors or sailing.

Regardless of the insignia on the sails, we remain the World Sailing recognized International Laser Class Association and will continue to conduct Laser Class events around the world as we have for the past 50 years.

As we have worked to overcome past challenges, the association is working to meet the current ones. We remain focused on getting additional builders on line in the very near future, including three highly respected builders in Europe. We anticipate that additional builders will enable improvement in supply conditions world wide and that the competition will ensure that the sport remains affordable.

The ILCA actively and fully supports the EurILCA Executive in working to ensure stability in Europe as we work to meet our common goals and address concerns of our membership.

Stay tuned for additional announcements in the coming days.

The ILCA Team
International Laser Class Association

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21 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Seems like this thread needs to focus a little less on ILCA, and a little more of the antics of Heini and the 'TLC'. 

The following has been circulated 'behind the scenes', and no, it wouldn't be appropriate to reveal where I got it from.

THE LASER CLASS - EC 588 - Proposal.pdf

OK.

European Laser Districts Divided over the Future of the Class

 

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Forget Laser sailing, the true authority has spoken on the corona virus:

https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2020/02/sailing-coronavirus.html

https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2020/03/coronavirus-be-proactive-not-reactive.html

Quote

Accordingly, sailors should from now on take all precautions to avoid contracting or spreading the virus, should focus on training and racing mostly at the club level and should therefore refrain from attending any big international event, including any EurILCA or ILCA event.

 

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Hey @bill4.  I am feeling a bit bad for you.  Guessing its still cold and hard water up by you while here it is 60F, 10-15 knots out of the south, and am going sailing.  With rum LOL.  So I will not quote the post you know I am referring to... but I have to ask...

  * Is it OK to call him a lying dick now and how many "next weeks" has it been?

# why canntt ILCA simply fund itself rather than charge and collect hidden fees from non members

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

Hey @bill4.  I am feeling a bit bad for you.  Guessing its still cold and hard water up by you while here it is 60F, 10-15 knots out of the south, and am going sailing.  With rum LOL.  So I will not quote the post you know I am referring to... but I have to ask...

  * Is it OK to call him a lying dick now and how many "next weeks" has it been?

# why canntt ILCA simply fund itself rather than charge and collect hidden fees from non members

Ah shucks, Wess. Thanks for the heartfelt sentiment. But don't you worry about me! Gym this morning, followed by brunch with the kids and then hockey this afternoon. A rum before Sunday dinner, my NHL team is in action tonight (call for another rum) and, well, my world is in complete order! 

And as chance would have it, I did have an email exchange with Tracey a few days ago.  He is sounding a bit beleaguered, and is "almost over the last hurdle". So you can pile on that comment as much as you like and toss around some more playground insults, I am going to hang in there and have confidence that the folks involved are doing all they can. 

#why canntt people who don't want to pay ILCA fees just buy used product

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