ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

[Bill5 1,594]

25 minutes ago, Wess said:

Bill, I just gotta keep y'all around for another two days so we can celebrate an anniversary!

PS - if you want to see slammed go check out the best pic thread LOL.

PPS - The Bruins.. WTH??

In Canada, we use metric measure. A metric year is 500 days, so we have a ways to go. Plus, it makes us younger. Concerning the Bruins - they were my favorite as a kid when there were only 6 teams, and I have stuck with them.

 

[Wess 2,429]

2 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

In Canada, we use metric measure. A metric year is 500 days, so we have a ways to go. Plus, it makes us younger. Concerning the Bruins - they were my favorite as a kid when there were only 6 teams, and I have stuck with them.

 

So that partly explains the ILCA insanity and delays. The Canadian metric year, LOL.  Had to laugh at 500 days.  We should use that ($500 USD) as the over under amount for the hidden fees total on ILCA boats as well as the timing in days till a new builder is up and running after they shot the old one.  I think I would be taking the over on the builder but the level of buffoonery for it to go that long even I canntt believe!  Hell I am stunned the idiots are apparently going to make it to 365 days with no new boats from no new builders.

[dgmckim 309]

1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

#I am a Bruins fan 

 

1 hour ago, Wess said:

PPS - The Bruins.. WTH??

Wess this surprises me. you strike me as someone who'd be a fan of Brad Marchand

[Wess 2,429]

24 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

 

Wess this surprises me. you strike me as someone who'd be a fan of Brad Marchand

Please; he plays ILCA's style.  I am a long suffering Caps fan who was granted a brief reprieve.  Sadly (and switching sports) there will be no reprieve for Skins fans (like me).  Hometown till the end baby (or until I move LOL).  Actually I think current ILCA leadership and the Skins management have a lot in common.  I want to cheer for the team but the management sucks soooo bad.

[sosoomii 526]

Well, undoubtedly COVID19 will lead to delays getting builders onboard.  In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if some pull out altogether.

I just hope everyone involved is still around when the first new boat is launched, whenever that may be.

and @Wess - watch out for revisionist history blaming the time to new boats squarely on this outbreak  

 

[torrid 363]

7 hours ago, Wess said:

So Bill you are saying ice boating is more popular in the US?  I guess I should have known that.  It seems to be a really cool sport.  Should have known Canadians couldn't step up to   it.  Anyway can you wake your Canadian ILCA leader friend from his hibernation and tell him to get to work on the new builders coming soon?  At the rate he is moving there may be more iceboats sold in Canada than ILCAs!!  

I got a kick a few years ago that I really wanted to try iceboating. I got in contact with somebody online who related the difficulty in finding the narrow range of conditions where it is possible - the right temperature, thick and flat frozen ice, and no snow.  He said ice sailors gathered for a regatta once drove all the way from New England to Michigan to find a place to sail.

[tillerman 1,254]

1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Well, undoubtedly COVID19 will lead to delays getting builders onboard.  In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if some pull out altogether.

I just hope everyone involved is still around when the first new boat is launched, whenever that may be.

and @Wess - watch out for revisionist history blaming the time to new boats squarely on this outbreak  

 

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2020/03/25/international-laser-class-association-seeks-assistant-technical-officer/?fbclid=IwAR2qkrZukX3Yp3ABuPrxTgoAqDmqGWje3EZF993ki3h19a41T1onIWCIk-c

ILCA have a vacancy "immediately" for another person to do inspections and audits on all the new builders. 

[Bill5 1,594]

4 minutes ago, tillerman said:

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2020/03/25/international-laser-class-association-seeks-assistant-technical-officer/?fbclid=IwAR2qkrZukX3Yp3ABuPrxTgoAqDmqGWje3EZF993ki3h19a41T1onIWCIk-c

ILCA have a vacancy "immediately" for another person to do inspections and audits on all the new builders. 

They wouldn't hire anybody if they didn't have builders to inspect! Hey Wess - are you an engineer?

[Wess 2,429]

No shit. Not trolling you.  That is about the most stupid ad.  Dopes.

Isn't there a LCM?  Are builders not bound contractually by it?  You don't need an NA.  Or an engineer.  They (the builders) need a QS.  You need a six sigma blackbelt.  An expert in QMS and ISO and auditing of same. 

Your dumb fat (from hidden fees from non members) idiot leaders are clueless.  Think about how often you can inspect.  Go check the historical data.  I DARE you. 

Oh and isn't WS also collecting fees on every boat to do this?

I continue to be stunned by the stupidity and at the same time greed and control seeking behaviors of your current ILCA leaders.

Its like they are all Canadian hockey players or a lawnmower sock puppet who sails a Firefly LOL (OK the last line was trolling).

[tillerman 1,254]

52 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

I continue to be stunned by the stupidity and at the same time greed and control seeking behaviors of your current ILCA leaders.

Its like they are all Canadian hockey players or a lawnmower sock puppet who sails a Firefly LOL (OK the last line was trolling).

All this trash talk about hockey is making me feel nostalgic for the lawnmower dude... and his sock puppets. I hope he's OK.

 

[Bill5 1,594]

34 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

$250,000 seems like an appropriate starting salary. 
I wonder, worldwide, if anyone can fully satisfy the requirements. Very few people with the described required education have sufficient hands on experience in a Dinghy manufacturing and product development Environment combined with the described writing and computer skills. 
    On the other hand, the Laser is a relatively simple toy constructed with 1960s technology. There are probably a couple hundred guys ranging in age from 65 to 100 who used to serve in key Dinghy manufacturing positions in the 1970s who could observe, evaluate, and suggest the necessary changes to a production line to ensure it manufactured Lasers. 
 

Maybe one of them will feel like doing the job for a while. 
 

 

Go get ‘em!

[Wess 2,429]

Think about that for a bit Gouv.  If I understand you I don't think they do (or should) inspect on that at all. 

You seem to be talking about class allowed tolerances and variation.  And yes the process and materials are dated.  But... this is a boat built to the LCM.  That is supposed to keep all boats the same past and present.  Now given the contents of the LCM (which are secret but not really) and the methods and materials, there are going to be variations of the sort you point to.  Some are directly stated and specifically allowed and others are a by-product of the LCM, the materials and the methods.  But either way they are allowed.  Permitted. You don't inspect for that.  You inspect for materials, methods and practices inconsistent with the LCM.  For variations beyond that which is implied or stated/allowed. 

Now as an interesting point you are implying the class should be using more "appropriate" materials and methods.  This would require a change to the LCM.  And it could - likely would - obsolete existing boats.  It would also likely improve builder margins.  So kind of a win-win for a builder.  So yea, like the new rigs and sails... I suspect this change is coming too.

[torrid 363]

Say someone does build a Laser with modern material using modern methods.  It looks the same to the casual observer, and it has the same weight and balance.  Here are some questions that come to mind:

1) Would it cost any less?

2) How stiff would it be compared to a classic Laser when both are brand new?

3) Same question as #2, but what about 5-10 years down the road?

[Wess 2,429]

26 minutes ago, torrid said:

Say someone does build a Laser with modern material using modern methods.  It looks the same to the casual observer, and it has the same weight and balance.  Here are some questions that come to mind:

1) Would it cost any less? LESS

2) How stiff would it be compared to a classic Laser when both are brand new? STIFFER

3) Same question as #2, but what about 5-10 years down the road? STIFFER

Its coming and will obsolete existing boats as will the new rigs.

[Bill5 1,594]

1 hour ago, torrid said:

Say someone does build a Laser with modern material using modern methods.  It looks the same to the casual observer, and it has the same weight and balance.  Here are some questions that come to mind:

1) Would it cost any less? LESS

2) How stiff would it be compared to a classic Laser when both are brand new? STIFFER

3) Same question as #2, but what about 5-10 years down the road? STIFFER

 

36 minutes ago, Wess said:

Its coming and will obsolete existing boats as will the new rigs.

One wonders why LP didn't just go Full Monty. A new stiffer, cheaper Laser that lasts longer - with optional rigs. Why piss around? Unless they are thinking they will kiss and make up with ILCA...

[Tcatman 124]

Wow,   first time that I recall that activists are even considering building a boat using current techniques.   My suggestion...take a look at the Nacra 17 factory contract with World Sailing, and how they manage change as a business/ quality control issue.   The class association came a bit later.    Remember,  its not supposed to be primarily consumer friendly... its supposed to be about  level competition and then the consumer issues.   

My question would be...  How much variance can there be that gets lost in the noise of a 10 event regatta.  Second question, what is your definition of "making obsolete"..    are we talking inventing foiling centerboards in A class or 1 percent stiffer.   Final point... change can be managed especially in an olympic class which cycles every 4 years using provided boats. The N17 class has foiling and non foiling quads.   With the games put off for a year... laser could solve their politics and build a state of the art olympic boat for the olympic sailors by jan 1 2021 for the games in Japan.. Then, allow no changes  till Jan1 2024.   So the real issue is how destructive to an amateur class is a 2 percent improvement in stiffness?.   Remember,  In a Development class single hander like A cats and Moths the  boats compete for about  7 years while the top of the fleet update their  design each year.   so... obsolete means something different to these sailors.   It seems to me that the majority of the sailors are happy to be using 2nd to 7th generation equipment.   A 4 year development cycle would be ... dare i say it.... "one design" . just like the N17 class. 

I follow this thread because the frozen in time standard, "laser construction manual" seems wrong to me.  The noise at the amateur level should swallow up the equipment variance.   I would not be surprised to find out that prospective builders are moving the dates anticipating something that resembles a Nacra 17 model for  Laser/ILCA in the future.

[Wess 2,429]

2 hours ago, Bill5 said:

 

One wonders why LP didn't just go Full Monty. A new stiffer, cheaper Laser that lasts longer - with optional rigs. Why piss around? Unless they are thinking they will kiss and make up with ILCA...

Think about who the LPE and EurILCA base is and what they want. T’aint that. But it’s what they gonna get from ILCA. If LPE is smart...

oh wait; nevermind LOL...

[WGWarburton 691]

Hi,

      The incremental-improvement model Tcatman describes may be what ILCA/PSA want in the longer term, as their primary focus is on the sharp end of the fleet. It would suit them to move to a more repeatable build, both to improve bulld tolerances for top sailors and to reduce the inspection load for the class. I don't think this is what they are doing at the moment.

 The Laser Class & LP are currently pursuing a more conservative model. It seems unlikely that LP are retooling in Portugal to change the build process significantly at this point, so they will likely want to carry on as they are for the foreseeable future.

 ... and this bifurcation would further divide the two-class  system, unless TLC fail to get traction.

One significant challenge is that the class association(s) are trying to address some very different needs: Elite sailors in rich countries  want different things than those with less access to large well-funded local fleets of dinghies, who in turn want different things from "grassroots" club sailors.

 Two competing visions for the future of the laser: carry on as we have for the last 200K boats to preserve the "one-design principle" or incremental development to bring the class a little more up to date, slowly, continuing the progression from control updates through composite spars to updated hulls? A revised build process could be rough on any new builders that have had to invest in the current system but I guess that's not ILCA;s problem (they just need to tick the FRAND box) and it might suit PSA very  nicely.

 Still, worth remembering that there are no conspiracies here (except in Rastegar's imagination, allegedly), so this can't be a long term plan, as such.

Cheers,

              W.

[Wess 2,429]

To all those calling for new rigs, new materials, new methods... why don't you go screw up some other class?  You are turning (I guess have turned) the Laser which was by far the best boat and class into a Frankenboat mess (both the boat and class).

  *   They already changed the boat name to ILCA.

  *  They already threw away the class construct of SMOD for some crap called FRAND which has clearly failed.

  * They already threw out a builder (which might not have mattered except for) and didn't replace them as they promised.

  * They said it would be cheaper but instead the new name boats are wildly more expensive.

  * You said this would grow the class and sell more boat; NOT!  Fewest boats sold ever and more Aeros sold in US.... and class resorting to funding itself via hidden fees on non-members.

  * They said the new rigs were coming and needed and then said they didn't mean it but any idiot knows they did and its coming

 *  And now you fools argue for new build materials and methods.

I am curious... is there anything about what used to be the greatest boat and class that you didn't change (or now propose to)?

Good grief.  Y'all wrote and executed the perfect strategy on how to kill a class.

 

[Wess 2,429]

Oh and...

 

 

 

[tillerman 1,254]

1 hour ago, Wess said:

To all those calling for new rigs, new materials, new methods... why don't you go screw up some other class?  You are turning (I guess have turned) the Laser which was by far the best boat and class into a Frankenboat mess (both the boat and class).

  *   They already changed the boat name to ILCA.

  *  They already threw away the class construct of SMOD for some crap called FRAND which has clearly failed.

  * They already threw out a builder (which might not have mattered except for) and didn't replace them as they promised.

  * They said it would be cheaper but instead the new name boats are wildly more expensive.

  * You said this would grow the class and sell more boat; NOT!  Fewest boats sold ever and more Aeros sold in US.... and class resorting to funding itself via hidden fees on non-members.

  * They said the new rigs were coming and needed and then said they didn't mean it but any idiot knows they did and its coming

 *  And now you fools argue for new build materials and methods.

I am curious... is there anything about what used to be the greatest boat and class that you didn't change (or now propose to)?

Good grief.  Y'all wrote and executed the perfect strategy on how to kill a class.

 

Everybody knows the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows
 

 

[Tcatman 124]

Quote

* You said this would grow the class and sell more boat; NOT!  Fewest boats sold ever and more Aeros sold in U

Hmm... seems to me the market is sending a strong signal to CHANGE.  That is not class politics... it is market forces.   There are still several single handed racing classes who are still producing boats. Some classes as old as Laser...  I believe Hobie cat still makes the Hobie 14 and it remains an International class. The boat has changed over the years in subtle ways.  Have you guys ever summarized how the other guys do it?   Perhaps the class tru believers (Wess) and radicals  could suspend the hubris, summarize how the rest of the classes manage change and see which set of builders are most in alignment.  The reality check is that Laser/ILCA is Olympic and the laser sailors at the top of the fleet care more about this then grass roots sailors but they count a lot more in the politics here..   Nacra has proven that you can successfully build boats for an Olympic Class that awards 18? countries a slot in the games.  Somebody is going to do that for ILCA.  The builders are not going to waste their capitol without a clear modern business plan and data like..."fewer boats sold ever ..." must be addressed for the rank and file...  The class association may want to be a democracy  but they don't own the intellectual capital and they can't tell builder capitol what to do..... especially when demand for lasers by rank and file seems pretty elastic.  It should be interesting to watch this unfold!

[tillerman 1,254]

[Wess 2,429]

And there is that soon word again LOL.

[Xeon 118]

I am sure some one here told us all there were no new moulds?  Therefor no new builders.

Does anyone remember who that was ? 

 

[Wess 2,429]

1 minute ago, Xeon said:

I am sure some on here told us all there were no new mould?  Therefor no new builders.

Does anyone remember who that was ? 

 

That is not what he said at all and applying even the most basic reading comprehension skills would result in a realization that above proves him correct.

[tillerman 1,254]

11 minutes ago, Wess said:

And there is that soon word again LOL.

They are just trolling you.

[Wess 2,429]

Just now, tillerman said:

They are just trolling you.

LOL, that is funny!!

[tillerman 1,254]

27 minutes ago, tillerman said:

ILCA has a castle?

[Xeon 118]

17 minutes ago, Wess said:

That is not what he said at all and applying even the most basic reading comprehension skills would result in a realization that above proves him correct.

My my we are a little thin skinned today aren’t we . 

[Tink 38]

I imagine if Ovington end up building Lasers they will have a very tough job ..... getting it UP to weight. For those the other side of the pond Ovingtons are the UK’s best production dinghy builder. 

[Wess 2,429]

27 minutes ago, Xeon said:

My my we are a little thin skinned today aren’t we . 

 Not at all. Are you trying to claim I said that?

[Xeon 118]

Nope. I only made one claim, which any one with basic reading skills would have realised 

[Wess 2,429]

OK then so.... it’s now one year after ILCA takes action and says we will have a new builder soon.  Eight months after the vote they asked for and said would fix things...

- ILCA still has no new builder.

- ILCAs cost around $10k USD while the Lasers they kicked out cost $7K 

- ILCA has tossed out the SMOD concepts the class was built on in order to focus on elite Olympic sailors and growth in China and Asia.

- ILCA apparently canntt fund itself from the few racers that do join so has continued to increase equipment fees which impact non-members.

- ILCA faces increased dissection from European sailors and faces a fractured/split class.

All this to suck up to WS which is reportedly close to bankrupt and now faces Olympic fee delays. 
 

So I gotta ask... how is that FRAND thing working out for you? 
 

[NotAnIdiot 52]

What a load of bollocks.

If ILCA don't have new builders why do Ovington have their moulds on the back of their truck?

Your price comparison is cow faeces.  The price in the UK has been dropped back to what it was about 18 months ago.  The ILCA is £4959, the LPE non class legal thing is £4798.

The "Laser" was never a SMOD.  The SM in SMOD stands for SINGLE MANUFACTURER.

 

Stop spreading misinformation.

 

 

[tillerman 1,254]

57 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

 

 The price in the UK has been dropped back to what it was about 18 months ago.  The ILCA is £4959, the LPE non class legal thing is £4798.

The class legal hull plus the Special Price "not class legal" Club Fit-Out Pack costs £3,600 plus £1,359 = £4,959. But that boat would not be ILCA class legal. It's a PSA non class legal thing.

Question: Would a PSA non class legal things be able to sail in The Laser Class events or are they only open to LPE non class legal things?

[Wess 2,429]

1 hour ago, NotAnIdiot said:

What a load of bollocks.

If ILCA don't have new builders why do Ovington have their moulds on the back of their truck?

Stop spreading misinformation.

 

 

I too wish you would stop spreading misinformation. 

  *  If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it does it make a sounds?

  *  If a builder doesn't even claim to be a builder and offer anything for sale is it a builder?

In other words give me a call when there is a new builder that is actually building and selling class legal boats.  Bottom line truth is that ILCA leadership screwed up.  Its been a year and they still don't have a new builder on line making and selling boats ans that ain't "soon."  Fact.  Truth.  Get over it and stop spreading misinformation.

[sosoomii 526]

1 hour ago, tillerman said:

The class legal hull plus the Special Price "not class legal" Club Fit-Out Pack costs £3,600 plus £1,359 = £4,959. But that boat would not be ILCA class legal. It's a PSA non class legal thing.

Question: Would a PSA non class legal things be able to sail in The Laser Class events or are they only open to LPE non class legal things?

If I recall correctly, the ILCA FRAND agreement (or some other ILCA builder document) prohibits approved builders from offering non class legal boats.  It’s buried somewhere deep in this thread. Is PSA in breach of contract?

[tillerman 1,254]

21 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

If I recall correctly, the ILCA FRAND agreement (or some other ILCA builder document) prohibits approved builders from offering non class legal boats.  It’s buried somewhere deep in this thread. Is PSA in breach of contract?

Great question.

What do you think @Bruce Hudson?

[Bill5 1,594]

34 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

If I recall correctly, the ILCA FRAND agreement (or some other ILCA builder document) prohibits approved builders from offering non class legal boats.  It’s buried somewhere deep in this thread. Is PSA in breach of contract?

 

8 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Great question.

What do you think @Bruce Hudson?

Sailboats UK, who is offering this deal, is not a builder. This is who is selling the class legal hull with the non class legal fit out. 

[sosoomii 526]

Four weeks ago today at Ali Pally Sailboats explicitly told me they would only sell class legal gear. But then Sailboats are not top of anyone’s “most respected brands” list I guess. 

[tillerman 1,254]

12 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Four weeks ago today at Ali Pally Sailboats explicitly told me they would only sell class legal gear. But then Sailboats are not top of anyone’s “most respected brands” list I guess. 

I just looked back at the page on the Sailboats UK website offering those ILCA dinghy hulls and fit out packs, and realized I had cropped off the top of the page when I posted the screen shot above. Here is the full page. Check out the heading!

[Bill5 1,594]

14 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I just looked back at the page on the Sailboats UK website offering those ILCA dinghy hulls and fit out packs, and realized I had cropped off the top of the page when I posted the screen shot above. Here is the full page. Check out the heading!

So? They have both. And it is well defined which is which. Regardless, no wrongdoing by ILCA or PSA as you had alluded. Good try, though.

[tillerman 1,254]

1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

So? They have both. And it is well defined which is which. Regardless, no wrongdoing by ILCA or PSA as you had alluded. Good try, though.

I agree. And I was not alluding that ILCA or PSA had done any wrong. I am sorry if you wrongly gained that impression.

I first posted a screenshot of the Sailboats UK page in response to @NotAnIdiot's assertion that you could buy an ILCA in the UK for £4959. Yes, you can buy something from SUK for that price. But it's not an ILCA dinghy. It's a PSA/SUK non class legal thing. 

It was @sosoomii who raised the issue about whether that was a breach of contract by PSA and you quickly responded that it is SUK who is selling the non class legal thing, not PSA. Fair enough. I accept your explanation that PSA is not doing anything wrong in allowing SUK to sell PSA/SUK non class legal things.

I reposted the page in full in response to @sosoomii's news that SUK had told him at the DInghy Show that they would only be selling class legal gear. Clearly SUK are selling all sorts of non class legal gear including so-called training sails and the aforementioned  PSA/SUK non class legal things - the latter on a page which is blatantly headed "Class Legal Boats." Presumably SUK's relationship with PSA allows them to sell PSA/SUK non class legal things and they will make a lot of grass-root sailors in the UK very happy by selling them the PSA/SUK non class legal things for only slightly more than the very similar LPE non class legal things. Nothing wrong with that. Although SUK really should change the heading on that page. Maybe "Class Legal Boats and Non Class Legal Things?"

Where did I allude to any ILCA wrongdoing?
Where did I allude to any PSA wrongdoing? I did not challenge your explanation that it is SUK that is selling the PSA/SUK non class legal things.

Nobody is doing anything wrong. LPE and PSA and SUK are perfectly entitled to sell whatever things they want, be they LPE Lasers or PSA ILCAs or other non class legal things. And ILCA are perfectly entitled to collect fees from folk like @Wess on every PSA ILCA sold to fund whatever ILCA is doing these days, although I assume there will be no such fees on LPE Lasers or LEP non class legal things or PSA/SUK non class legal things. It's a free market and that's a very wonderful thing.

Please stop spreading mis-information.

[Bill5 1,594]

2 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Where did I allude to any ILCA wrongdoing?
Where did I allude to any PSA wrongdoing? I did not challenge your explanation that it is SUK that is selling the PSA/SUK non class legal things.
Please stop spreading mis-information.

Here:

3 hours ago, sosoomii said:

If I recall correctly, the ILCA FRAND agreement (or some other ILCA builder document) prohibits approved builders from offering non class legal boats.  It’s buried somewhere deep in this thread. Is PSA in breach of contract?

And here (where you seem to be in agreement):

3 hours ago, tillerman said:

Great question.

What do you think @Bruce Hudson?

Sorry if I misinterpreted your comment with Sosoomii as being in agreement. And, yes, it looks to me like Sosoomi was alluding. 

[tillerman 1,254]

Just now, Bill5 said:

Here:

And here (where you seem to be in agreement):

Sorry if I misinterpreted your comment with Sosoomii as being in agreement. And, yes, it looks to me like Sosoomi was alluding. 

Apology accepted. I just wanted to get an opinion from @Bruce Hudson on @sosoomii's question because @Bruce Hudson has, in the past, filled many pages on this thread with his legal opinions on similar issues and I thought it was something on which he could shed some light.

 

[Bill5 1,594]

19 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Apology accepted. I just wanted to get an opinion from @Bruce Hudson on @sosoomii's question because @Bruce Hudson has, in the past, filled many pages on this thread with his legal opinions on similar issues and I thought it was something on which he could shed some light.

Not a big fan of the light Bruce sheds...

 

[sosoomii 526]

48 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Here:

And here (where you seem to be in agreement):

Sorry if I misinterpreted your comment with Sosoomii as being in agreement. And, yes, it looks to me like Sosoomi was alluding. 

I did not allude that ILCA have done any wrong doing on this matter.  I do state categorically that Sailboats told me they sell only class legal stuff and that doesn’t seem to be true.  I have no idea whether PSA are involved, or agree, or have any say on what Sailboats are doing.    None the less, the website sure makes it looks like this is PSA supplied non legal gear.  

[JimC 671]

Its not very clear but it appears to be a replica sail. If that's the case upgrading it to fully legit would be straightforward enough. 

[Bill5 1,594]

42 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I did not allude that ILCA have done any wrong doing on this matter.  I do state categorically that Sailboats told me they sell only class legal stuff and that doesn’t seem to be true.  I have no idea whether PSA are involved, or agree, or have any say on what Sailboats are doing.    None the less, the website sure makes it looks like this is PSA supplied non legal gear.  

OK. I stand corrected. 

[Bruce Hudson 366]

Excellent to see the Laser being built by Ovington, new Lasers are on track to be built by Ovington.

I wonder what brand Ovington will be using?

[JMP 163]

Chris from Ovington posted they're ILCA's:

 

[tillerman 1,254]

20 minutes ago, JMP said:

Chris from Ovington posted they're ILCA's:

 

So LPE build Lasers and PSA build ILCAs. And now Ovington say that they are going to be building ILCAs too. 

Any news on what the other 6 new builders identified so far by ILCA are going to call their boats? Are they all going to be building ILCAs just so as to avoid confusion?
 

[JMP 163]

I've not looked or asked what the others are intending to build.  I'd guess they'll all be ILCA's too, given Harken etc have retooled so the blocks etc now say ILCA instead of laser

[Wess 2,429]

4 hours ago, tillerman said:

 And ILCA are perfectly entitled to collect fees from folk like @Wess on every PSA ILCA sold to fund whatever ILCA is doing these days, although I assume there will be no such fees on LPE Lasers or LEP non class legal things or PSA/SUK non class legal things.

Actually because they do nothing in  return I am not sure that is not illegal in the EU but I doubt anyone is going to take them to court over it.  I just think they suck for doing it.

[Bill5 1,594]

From the glass is more than half-full camp:

The boat is still in the Olympics (good news for the elite)

There are dealers of class legal boats popping up globally (good news for elite and keen racers)

The new builders are getting closer (good news for all, really)

Cheap, class legal boats are available in the UK (good news for elite and racers in Europe)

Cheap, non class legal boats are available in the UK (good news for club racers, grass rooters, clubs, schools and anti-ILCA-ites in Europe)

There is still a thriving aftermarket for inexpensive sails, foils and other parts (good news for grass rooters, clubs, schools, anti-ILCA-ites plus racers and elites for practice gear)

A new enviro-friendly, carbon neutral, Greta Thunberg approved manufacturing plant is being developed for cheap non class legal boats (good news for grass rooters, clubs, schools, anti-ILCA-ites and environmentalists)

Gee, maybe the result of this  this whole FRAND thingy ain't so bad. It all seems quite progressive to me - there is something for everyone! (Knowing full well the word "soon" will be questioned for the 1,043th time). 

 

[Wess 2,429]

Bill I just hope all the fees on ILCA boats are listed soon! 

[RobbieB 1,172]

14 hours ago, tillerman said:

So LPE build Lasers and PSA build ILCAs. And now Ovington say that they are going to be building ILCAs too. 

Any news on what the other 6 new builders identified so far by ILCA are going to call their boats? Are they all going to be building ILCAs just so as to avoid confusion?
 

I know you know the answer, but for those that don't.  Any new builder contracted by ILCA to build boats the boats will be called ILCA's.  This is part of the reason the class had a vote last summer.

Now- IF The Laser Class were to ever contract new builders, (which they never will as LPE would never allow it) I'm not sure what they would be called as LPE has the rights to "Laser".  

[tillerman 1,254]

6 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I know you know the answer, but for those that don't.  Any new builder contracted by ILCA to build boats the boats will be called ILCA's.  This is part of the reason the class had a vote last summer. 

Actually I didn't know that. I thought the vote last summer was to remove the requirement for Builders of ILCA legal boats to be licensed by Laser trademark owners.

I must admit that I interpreted this as enabling builders of ILCA legal boats to use any trademark for their boats other than "Laser." I noticed that PSA are using the ILCA trademark but I must have missed the announcement that all new ILCA approved builders must use the ILCA trademark. Thanks for clearing that up.

[RobbieB 1,172]

4 hours ago, tillerman said:

Actually I didn't know that. I thought the vote last summer was to remove the requirement for Builders of ILCA legal boats to be licensed by Laser trademark owners.

I must admit that I interpreted this as enabling builders of ILCA legal boats to use any trademark for their boats other than "Laser." I noticed that PSA are using the ILCA trademark but I must have missed the announcement that all new ILCA approved builders must use the ILCA trademark. Thanks for clearing that up.

Nope.  I mean yes you're correct.  They could choose anything.  At the time of the vote "ILCA" was not the new brand of choice so any name was open.    I also think your correct that new builders are not "required" to use the ILCA brand.  However, I believe it would be stupid from a marketing standpoint to use anything different.  I'm not expecting to see any other logo or name, other than ILCA, to come from the other builders as I think they are likely too smart to do that.

[nota 37]

are any boats really competitive that are more then a very few years old ?

 

if true also for sails or spars ?

is there any real point to trying to do it the old way that produces a quick aged out hull spar or sail

would the class be better long term if the hulls spars and sails are redone to last longer

add carbon to stiffen up the weak points like the mast step db slot ect

same for stronger rig and sails of modern materials that will last longer NOT lighter faster ect

but just to be a longer competitive boat without constant replacement of bits inc the hulls ?

[tillerman 1,254]

1 minute ago, nota said:

are any boats really competitive that are more then a very few years old ?

 

if true also for sails or spars ?

is there any real point to trying to do it the old way that produces a quick aged out hull spar or sail

would the class be better long term if the hulls spars and sails are redone to last longer

add carbon to stiffen up the weak points like the mast step db slot ect

same for stronger rig and sails of modern materials that will last longer NOT lighter faster ect

but just to be a longer competitive boat without constant replacement of bits inc the hulls ?

The problem with Lasers is that they don't wear out/break quickly enough. There are boats that are 25 years old and older which are still perfectly OK for club racing. What kind of business model is that? How can any business be profitable if your customer only needs to buy an item from you once every 30 or 40 years?

[tillerman 1,254]

Sounds like The Laser Class has been busy - has been legally established... working on constitution to be adopted at AGM in a few months... will be applying for World Sailing recognition this year.



https://www.thelaserclass.com/blogs/news/march-2020?fbclid=IwAR3TtpEJZAJ6IrGpCJWMRUcW6Gl0VfAsfeRWGXpXW9fAVEHxMGI897iZOtg

[Wess 2,429]

19 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Sounds like The Laser Class has been busy - has been legally established... working on constitution to be adopted at AGM in a few months... will be applying for World Sailing recognition this year.



https://www.thelaserclass.com/blogs/news/march-2020?fbclid=IwAR3TtpEJZAJ6IrGpCJWMRUcW6Gl0VfAsfeRWGXpXW9fAVEHxMGI897iZOtg

You take all my fun away LOL.

[tillerman 1,254]

21 minutes ago, Wess said:

You take all my fun away LOL.

Take your fun away?

Sorry.

Here's some fun, fun, fun for you.
 

 

[torrid 363]

4 hours ago, tillerman said:

Sounds like The Laser Class has been busy - has been legally established... working on constitution to be adopted at AGM in a few months... will be applying for World Sailing recognition this year.



https://www.thelaserclass.com/blogs/news/march-2020?fbclid=IwAR3TtpEJZAJ6IrGpCJWMRUcW6Gl0VfAsfeRWGXpXW9fAVEHxMGI897iZOtg

Normally WS would tell them to go pound sand, but I bet they could be bought.

[greenwhiteblack 84]

If I remember correctly, Chris Caldecoat mentioned at the ALCA AGM (think I've also heard this elsewhere from Eric et al) that the ILCA branding is temporary and that the class is looking in to other options for branding, and they might have a competition or ask for submissions

[WGWarburton 691]

So,

         Any good reason not to get behind the Laser Class?

Cheers,

                W.

[torrid 363]

43 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

So,

         Any good reason not to get behind the Laser Class?

Cheers,

                W.

They're in cahoots with LP.

[WGWarburton 691]

46 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

So,

         Any good reason not to get behind the Laser Class?

Cheers,

                W.

2 minutes ago, torrid said:

They're in cahoots with LP.

 

 Who made all three boats I have, supply my excellent local dealer and sponsor the National Championships.  Also currently offering discounts on multiple purchases to clubs & centres...

 Not convinced that counts as a good reason. Do you have anything more compelling, please?

Cheers,

              W.

[JMP 163]

The LP Class wont be "World Wide" if that concerns you, they wont get rights to the Laser branding in all regions.

[NotAnIdiot 52]

 

17 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

 

 Who made all three boats I have, supply my excellent local dealer and sponsor the National Championships.  Also currently offering discounts on multiple purchases to clubs & centres...

 Not convinced that counts as a good reason. Do you have anything more compelling, please?

Cheers,

              W.

They have terrible manufacturing quality, have flagrant disregard for the Consumer Rights Act and only do what they're supposed to if you start filing in court?  

They take the piss with changes in the pricing of equipment and spares and lie to the sailors that's it's down to ILCA?

They refuse to work with the other builders and ILCA and block necessary updates to equipment that would benefit the sailors and the class?

[NotAnIdiot 52]

16 hours ago, tillerman said:

Sounds like The Laser Class has been busy - has been legally established... working on constitution to be adopted at AGM in a few months... will be applying for World Sailing recognition this year.



https://www.thelaserclass.com/blogs/news/march-2020?fbclid=IwAR3TtpEJZAJ6IrGpCJWMRUcW6Gl0VfAsfeRWGXpXW9fAVEHxMGI897iZOtg

There's a significant gap between "working on the application to become a recognized class" and "becoming a recognised class".  It's doubtful they'll even manage to meet the requirement of 5 MNAs with 15 active boats per MNA.  How are they going to "claim" people racing their lasers as being "active boats" in their class?

If WS does anything other than tell them to get lost it will be a travesty.

 

 

 

 

[RobbieB 1,172]

1 hour ago, greenwhiteblack said:

If I remember correctly, Chris Caldecoat mentioned at the ALCA AGM (think I've also heard this elsewhere from Eric et al) that the ILCA branding is temporary and that the class is looking in to other options for branding, and they might have a competition or ask for submissions

Early on there was some question about this.  However, they are now supplying boats and sails with the "ILCA" logo as well as the quarterly NA magazine.  I doubt they will re-re-brand at this point.  I would recommend against it.

[sosoomii 526]

52 minutes ago, NotAnIdiot said:

It's doubtful they'll even manage to meet the requirement of 5 MNAs with 15 active boats per MNA.  How are they going to "claim" people racing their lasers as being "active boats" in their class?

Oh please.  You may not like the people or the concept, but that is a very low hurdle to jump for TLC, CV19 not withstanding.  

[Bill5 1,594]

I guess The Laser Class and LP are so impressed with the value World Sailing brings that they want to charge all their members and product buyers additional fees. 

[tillerman 1,254]

11 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I guess The Laser Class and LP are so impressed with the value World Sailing brings that they want to charge all their members and product buyers additional fees. 

Isn't there some value in going back to holding Laser World Championships in Lasers again?


 

[JimC 671]

3 hours ago, NotAnIdiot said:

There's a significant gap between "working on the application to become a recognized class" and "becoming a recognised class

This was a selective extract from a letter from World Sailing to Int Sunfish CA at the height of their dispute with Laser Performance. 

“World Sailing cannot accept a rival international class association being created without the consent of the current class.  Doing so fundamentally undermines the Class’s membership of World Sailing and the purpose of World Sailing Classes.  In particular, ISCA has an obligation under the World Sailing Constitution to (emphasis added):

“… be responsible for implementing the objects and decision of the Federation affecting their classes and for protecting the design characteristics of their class” [Art. 8].

[tillerman 1,254]

2 minutes ago, JimC said:

This was a selective extract from a letter from World Sailing to Int Sunfish CA at the height of their dispute with Laser Performance. 

 

But there are two classes - one for ILCAs and one for Lasers. Surely World Sailing wouldn't have a problem with that?

[NotAnIdiot 52]

2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Oh please.  You may not like the people or the concept, but that is a very low hurdle to jump for TLC, CV19 not withstanding.  

It is a low hurdle, but they do have to jump it.  They can't claim that all the lasers sailing around are TLC boats...  They can't claim that anyone who clicked on their link when LP announced their existence on Facebook is an "class member" who is "actively racing in the class".

[sosoomii 526]

But they can claim anyone who has joined them as a member is active.  

[NotAnIdiot 52]

2 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

But they can claim anyone who has joined them as a member is active.  

They can claim whatever they like - a third party (world sailing) has to objectively agree with them.