Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

I think your math is correct, but didn't someone try to order one, (just to see) and there's no shipping options to the US?  Might as well be free....

Looks like laserperformance.us  is now offering the full range of Lasers and parts to the US market. When you start the process to buy a boat it says, "Please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery. Sales Team will contact you regarding shipping this order."

 

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:

Looks like laserperformance.us  is now offering the full range of Lasers and parts to the US market. When you start the process to buy a boat it says, "Please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery. Sales Team will contact you regarding shipping this order."

 

On 3/22/2020 at 9:55 AM, RobG said:

It's only value if you can actually buy it at that price.

I tried to use the site to see what shipping would cost. The shipping address widget would only allow selection of the US. At the checkout, the result was "We don't offer shipping to the United States". Maybe someone else will have more luck.

buyLaser.thumb.png.470c27918b3dbfb50c1d6dd2178c4e66.png

 

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9 hours ago, Wess said:

Well we were talking about grass roots, not the elite when YOU said we don't need WS (or ILCA) and I agreed.

And don't kid yourself; WS and ILCA made the mess they are in.  LPE sucks for sure but this current ILCA mess is 100% self made because of their singular focus on the Olympics, growth in China/Asia and the elite.  So while I used to send them money I have no desire to now.

I am trying to remember what, over the years, ILCA has done for the grass roots sailor. I can't think of anything specific. Then I got thinking about a couple other international classes to which I have belonged and there wasn't much grass roots with them. I then checked out the websites of a few other international classes listed by WS and couldn't find much dedicated to the grass roots sailor. The Enterprise class site states joining will get a member access to some cruising activities, but that's about it. Couldn't find the "how to run a fun regatta" tab in the 49er site. Nor anything about tenting in a 505. Everything was similar to what ILCA provide, but not as abundant. What was it historically that had you sending money to ILCA? 

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That’s disingenuous though @Bill5.  The Laser is clearly “the people’s boat” whereas the 49er is clearly an elite high performance boat.  Because of its ubiquitous presence it was selected (and reselected) for the Olympics.  The 49er was selected because it was the fastest not the most widespread.

If any boat represents the grass roots of the sport it is the Laser and that is precisely why, in my view, it should be a manufacturer led class, not an association led one.  A race led association almost inevitably focuses on its highest level of racing, whether that is Olympic, International, national or regional, and club racers that never travel get little value from the association.  Therefore it is not reasonable to expect these club racers to join, or worse charge them even when they don’t join. These owner led associations work in smallish classes where most of the owners have the similar ambitions, but even then they can be accused of being cliquey - how many classes have withered because they are run by the ultra keen for the ultra keen and newbies are left to flounder at the back of a 5 back-to-back race day, never to be seen again?  

The builder, in contrast, realises that the casual sailors’ money is as good as the Olympians and so treats both equally.  

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40 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

That’s disingenuous though @Bill5.  The Laser is clearly “the people’s boat” whereas the 49er is clearly an elite high performance boat.  Because of its ubiquitous presence it was selected (and reselected) for the Olympics.  The 49er was selected because it was the fastest not the most widespread.

If any boat represents the grass roots of the sport it is the Laser and that is precisely why, in my view, it should be a manufacturer led class, not an association led one.  A race led association almost inevitably focuses on its highest level of racing, whether that is Olympic, International, national or regional, and club racers that never travel get little value from the association.  Therefore it is not reasonable to expect these club racers to join, or worse charge them even when they don’t join. These owner led associations work in smallish classes where most of the owners have the similar ambitions, but even then they can be accused of being cliquey - how many classes have withered because they are run by the ultra keen for the ultra keen and newbies are left to flounder at the back of a 5 back-to-back race day, never to be seen again?  

The builder, in contrast, realises that the casual sailors’ money is as good as the Olympians and so treats both equally.  

The builder also realizes that cost effective improvements to the boat improve the bottom line and the boats performance.  Each model year is new and improved.  As a consumer, this is how the market should work.    How do you rationalize a racing class and market this approach? 

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

That’s disingenuous though @Bill5.  The Laser is clearly “the people’s boat” whereas the 49er is clearly an elite high performance boat.  Because of its ubiquitous presence it was selected (and reselected) for the Olympics.  The 49er was selected because it was the fastest not the most widespread.

If any boat represents the grass roots of the sport it is the Laser and that is precisely why, in my view, it should be a manufacturer led class, not an association led one.  A race led association almost inevitably focuses on its highest level of racing, whether that is Olympic, International, national or regional, and club racers that never travel get little value from the association.  Therefore it is not reasonable to expect these club racers to join, or worse charge them even when they don’t join. These owner led associations work in smallish classes where most of the owners have the similar ambitions, but even then they can be accused of being cliquey - how many classes have withered because they are run by the ultra keen for the ultra keen and newbies are left to flounder at the back of a 5 back-to-back race day, never to be seen again?  

The builder, in contrast, realises that the casual sailors’ money is as good as the Olympians and so treats both equally.  

There are some 14,000 ILCA members. All willingly paying their dues. Their choice. They certainly aren't all elite sailors - as a matter of fact I would say the vast majority are closer to grass roots than elite. Why do you suppose they all join? Do you think there would be more members if they focused on grass roots needs and issues? And what would those needs and issues be? 

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Oh Bill there you go again.  Defending 4 letters and idiot leaders instead of concepts and principles.  I realize that lemmings can be short sighted but if you look back at the blow torch thread you would find I was unique in defending and supporting ILCA for years.  And years.  And years.   So there are pages of posts where you could easily figure why.  Its a simple matter of reading comprehension.

I haven't changed but ILCA has.  So lets see if you can figure out why I used to support them - and still did initially on this thread when the booted LPE - but don't anymore.  In both instances my reason and principles are the same.

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

Oh Bill there you go again.  Defending 4 letters and idiot leaders instead of concepts and principles.  I realize that lemmings can be short sighted but if you look back at the blow torch thread you would find I was unique in defending and supporting ILCA for years.  And years.  And years.   So there are pages of posts where you could easily figure why.  Its a simple matter of reading comprehension.

I haven't changed but ILCA has.  So lets see if you can figure out why I used to support them - and still did initially on this thread when the booted LPE - but don't anymore.  In both instances my reason and principles are the same.

You avoided answering any of the questions. Well done! The Wess Wiggle lives on. Let me distill this. What should sailors expect from their class organizations from a grassroots perspective?

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6 hours ago, Bill5 said:

There are some 14,000 ILCA members. All willingly paying their dues. Their choice. They certainly aren't all elite sailors - as a matter of fact I would say the vast majority are closer to grass roots than elite. Why do you suppose they all join? Do you think there would be more members if they focused on grass roots needs and issues? And what would those needs and issues be? 

This misses my point.  I see the need for a CA. They organise activities for those who want organised activities. Well, actually, they organise activities for those whom club based activities are not enough.  They do not (and probably cannot) represent the silent majority of owners, the other 200,000.  

Can you imagine the situation where the Diet Coke fan club dictates the ingredients and licensed manufacturers of that drink?  Is it conceivable that the RS Class Association could dictate to H. Taylor & Son (Brockley) Ltd who is permitted to build the RS Aero?

 

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34 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

This misses my point.  I see the need for a CA. They organise activities for those who want organised activities. Well, actually, they organise activities for those whom club based activities are not enough.  They do not (and probably cannot) represent the silent majority of owners, the other 200,000.  

Can you imagine the situation where the Diet Coke fan club dictates the ingredients and licensed manufacturers of that drink?  Is it conceivable that the RS Class Association could dictate to H. Taylor & Son (Brockley) Ltd who is permitted to build the RS Aero?

 

If your point is that the Laser/ILCA would be better off as a manufacturer-led effort, I really don't know. Maybe, maybe not. But pretending it was, how would that benefit the grass roots sailor? Is there a decent example? I am thinking the last significant ones would have been Hobie and Windsurfer. 

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And Melges.

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1532948954_ScreenShot2020-04-02at7_06_23AM.thumb.png.e5c7f939734510269051b91888def29b.png

A container load of PSA/ILCAs is on its way from Australia to US One-Design in Massachusetts. US One-Design is already listing them on their website - but not publishing prices yet.

504461229_ScreenShot2020-04-02at7_15_11AM.thumb.png.b44b4a3d27c2ab48948ea8ec79b74b60.png

I wonder whether New England sailors will buy these ILCAs? Personally, if I were in the market for a new ILCA I would rather support local builder Zim Sailing (one of the 7 new builders announced so far by ILCA.) By the way Zim has a new website. Check it out at https://zimsailing.com

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7 hours ago, Bill5 said:

You avoided answering any of the questions. Well done! The Wess Wiggle lives on. Let me distill this. What should sailors expect from their class organizations from a grassroots perspective?

I don't duck Bill.  Or wiggle.  That is an ILCA trait.  I did answer.  Very honestly and sincerely.  My answer to your question is in the thread I pointed you to and where I long supported ILCA.  Rather than spell it out for you I was curious to see if you had any historical context and could answer it yourself.  If you prove incapable I will spell out my primary reason but why don't you give it an honest attempt yourself.  I would add to my primary answer and principle... that 1.) class leaders should not lie and mislead (ILCA did repeatedly of late IMHO), 2.) a class should not rip people off (ILCA does), and 3.) a class should not abandon its roots and principles.  But again, none of these is my driver and most important answer to your question. That you can find in  the blow torch thread if you try even a little.  For decades I have argued for the same thing to support grass root sailors.

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will be quite interesting to see what price they end up at, with the current exchange rate they should be in the $6K USD range for the pleb-spec alloy top section/tiller version.  But at least you get those sexy new foils

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4 hours ago, Bill5 said:

If your point is that the Laser/ILCA would be better off as a manufacturer-led effort, I really don't know. Maybe, maybe not. But pretending it was, how would that benefit the grass roots sailor? Is there a decent example? I am thinking the last significant ones would have been Hobie and Windsurfer. 

Wasn't the Laser the example?   The club sailor could buy and race the same gear as the aspiring world champion without having to be concerned about which builder to go with, or who made the fastest masts, the best sails or whether he would be competitive without the latest lightweight blocks and lines.

Same applied at club level... apart from sails (discussion on pricing of new sails can go off on a tangent if required...)... richer members couldn't buy their way to the front of the fleet by spending more on lighter, stiffer, faster...

Cheers,

                W.

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1 hour ago, WGWarburton said:

Wasn't the Laser the example?   The club sailor could buy and race the same gear as the aspiring world champion without having to be concerned about which builder to go with, or who made the fastest masts, the best sails or whether he would be competitive without the latest lightweight blocks and lines.

Same applied at club level... apart from sails (discussion on pricing of new sails can go off on a tangent if required...)... richer members couldn't buy their way to the front of the fleet by spending more on lighter, stiffer, faster...

Cheers,

                W.

Pretty much still the case with the Laser.  With ALL of the improvements made a mediocre sailor is still a mediocre sailor.  You can put a mediocre sailor in a brand new boat with all the fancy fixin's and put a very good sailor in a "standard" boat.  The very good sailor will win every time, (unless the mediocre sailor bangs a corner and gets lucky).  Those who actually sail these boats in fleets have the experience of seeing this first hand.    

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14 hours ago, Bill5 said:

There are some 14,000 ILCA members. All willingly paying their dues. Their choice.

Their choice? Not really.

Quote

They certainly aren't all elite sailors - as a matter of fact I would say the vast majority are closer to grass roots than elite. Why do you suppose they all join?

It's quite simple, Bill5 - it is required by the Class rules. Otherwise they can't race in any regatta.

Quote

9. CLASS ASSOCIATION MEMBERSHIP
No person is permitted to race in any Fleet, interFleet,
District, or other sanctioned event unless at least one
member of the crew is a current member of the
International Laser Class Association

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

I don't duck Bill.  Or wiggle.  That is an ILCA trait.  I did answer.  Very honestly and sincerely.  My answer to your question is in the thread I pointed you to and where I long supported ILCA.  Rather than spell it out for you I was curious to see if you had any historical context and could answer it yourself.  If you prove incapable I will spell out my primary reason but why don't you give it an honest attempt yourself.  I would add to my primary answer and principle... that 1.) class leaders should not lie and mislead (ILCA did repeatedly of late IMHO), 2.) a class should not rip people off (ILCA does), and 3.) a class should not abandon its roots and principles.  But again, none of these is my driver and most important answer to your question. That you can find in  the blow torch thread if you try even a little.  For decades I have argued for the same thing to support grass root sailors.

What should sailors expect from their class organizations from a grassroots perspective?  

Don't lie. Don't rip me off, don't abandon principles.    Those are the deliverables that you want?

No wonder you can't get support ....even from club sailors  on the internet with this set of concerns... 

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  Quote

9. CLASS ASSOCIATION MEMBERSHIP
No person is permitted to race in any Fleet, interFleet,
District, or other sanctioned event unless at least one
member of the crew is a current member of the
International Laser Class Association


Yes, this is a class rule. But in my experience (sailing a Laser in UK and North America) it is never enforced at any level below a District Championship, and not always at District and Regional Championships. In spits of that, I have always been a member of the class association for the boat I was racing - UKLA,  NALC and now RSANACA because I want to fund their activities in support of grass-roots sailing.
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1 hour ago, ojfd said:

Their choice? Not really.

It's quite simple, Bill5 - it is required by the Class rules. Otherwise they can't race in any regatta.

Ojfd   what is your understanding of the concept of "choice"    a selection based in free will and how does it differ from a similar notion of a selection based on decisions about the weight of various factors?

IME,   at the grass roots level, the OA, ie the local club,  is NOT in the business of verifying your membership status.  They are the OA and by the RRS set the entry requirements for fair competition.   What they ask is that your boat be class legal or properly handicapped..    They see their responsibility to ensure fair competition and count on the fundamentals of the RRS and sportsmanship for the sailor to honor the rules.   So they give the local competitor free will in the matter  They don't see their role as FORCING a DECISION to be made by their customer about some other organizations rules, fees, etc.   They choose to not require class or us sailing membership.   They MAY choose to support us sailing and class membership by offering discounts  (or surcharges) if you are members of those organizations.   The conservative position is  free will in the matter and not to force you to decide to pay this other organization to race or go home and so they leave it up to the customers free will.

Now when the class association is the organizing authority, they can require membership.   Often its just a legal requirement for getting regatta liability insurance (USA)    The class has to purchase a package  of on the water and property liability for the event and this is extended exclusively to  MEMBERS of the legal entitity (US Hobie class assn).    Basically, for the event to happen you have to pay this cost or no event.   (The US Hobie Class Association does this for fleets hosting events when the fleet is not a legal entity... eg unincorporated).... So to race at one of these regattas you must be a membership of the class for the event to have insurance coverage.

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1 hour ago, Tcatman said:

What should sailors expect from their class organizations from a grassroots perspective?  

Don't lie. Don't rip me off, don't abandon principles.    Those are the deliverables that you want?

No wonder you can't get support ....even from club sailors  on the internet with this set of concerns... 

You clearly have a reading comprehension problem.  And I don't recall needing, asking for, or wanting anyone's support for anything Laser related.  But do have a nice day LOL.

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3 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Topper, Aero, Pico, RS Tera, RS Zest...

Add to these the Open Bic (or whatever it is called) and its all kids' boats except the Aero. This is the first time youth sailing has been mentioned, and I think that is a different subject. I don't think kids grass roots and adult grass roots are the same. (And Wess - I don't believe the Opti is a manufacturer-led boat)

Anyway - on the Aero, what does RS do for the grass roots sailor? And I am really just curious. 

So, for adults, we have the Aero, Hobie (is that still right?), UFO (how could I forget?) and Melges as the only manufacturer-led classes. Any others? 

5 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Wasn't the Laser the example?   The club sailor could buy and race the same gear as the aspiring world champion without having to be concerned about which builder to go with, or who made the fastest masts, the best sails or whether he would be competitive without the latest lightweight blocks and lines.

Same applied at club level... apart from sails (discussion on pricing of new sails can go off on a tangent if required...)... richer members couldn't buy their way to the front of the fleet by spending more on lighter, stiffer, faster...

Cheers,

                W.

I don't think the Laser was ever a manufacturer-led class. I got my first one in 1972, and there was an enthusiastic dealer and a bunch of super keen sailors but I recall nothing of Performance Sailcraft being involved at all. But - they made sure supply was plentiful. No, my experience was the Laser Class Association got into high-gear quickly. Districts were formed right away and racing programs were established. Anything for the grass roots remained the domain of the local clubs - and the energetic District Reps

3 hours ago, ojfd said:

Their choice? Not really.

It's quite simple, Bill5 - it is required by the Class rules. Otherwise they can't race in any regatta.

I agree with Tcatman's and Tillerman's responses. Tcatman and Tillerman... why is Cat Stevens popping into my head?

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Informative update on the new builder process in the Laser Sailer spring newsletter sent via e mail to class members today.  

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

You clearly have a reading comprehension problem.  And I don't recall needing, asking for, or wanting anyone's support for anything Laser related.  But do have a nice day LOL.

Ah  as bill5 asked for a why..... and you highlighted these three current issues. so whatever,    No worries.... just answer specifically....   WHAT DO YOU WANT THE NATIONAL CLASS  (Hell ANY National Class) TO DO for Grass Roots sailing in 2020?    (perhaps they don't actually KNOW)

Fact of the matter... I agree with you that the national and international class have little relevance to the local club or regional sailor BECAUSE THEY DO NOTHING....   I had a low bar.... publish a summary of the yearly class budget  (after they clearly mis spent it one year)...  as well as  they had a different vision of what they should do for the club sailing level and what things they had no interest in doing.   So, .  When the fun factor from my point of view went negative... I sold the boat. 

The issue remains.  WHAT DO YOU WANT the national class association and the International class to actually DELIVER for grass roots sailing.... Your "stop lying"  is an idiosyncratic demand that doesn't get a lot of heads nodding in agreement.  So just answer Bill5s question!

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9 hours ago, tillerman said:

1532948954_ScreenShot2020-04-02at7_06_23AM.thumb.png.e5c7f939734510269051b91888def29b.png

A container load of PSA/ILCAs is on its way from Australia to US One-Design in Massachusetts. US One-Design is already listing them on their website - but not publishing prices yet.

504461229_ScreenShot2020-04-02at7_15_11AM.thumb.png.b44b4a3d27c2ab48948ea8ec79b74b60.png

I wonder whether New England sailors will buy these ILCAs? Personally, if I were in the market for a new ILCA I would rather support local builder Zim Sailing (one of the 7 new builders announced so far by ILCA.) By the way Zim has a new website. Check it out at https://zimsailing.com

the weirdest part about this is that the image still hast the Mk.1 standard sail on it. come on

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25 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

the weirdest part about this is that the image still hast the Mk.1 standard sail on it. come on

That's for the grass roots folks. :D

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2 hours ago, Tcatman said:

Ah  as bill5 asked for a why..... and you highlighted these three current issues. so whatever,    No worries.... just answer specifically....   WHAT DO YOU WANT THE NATIONAL CLASS  (Hell ANY National Class) TO DO for Grass Roots sailing in 2020?    (perhaps they don't actually KNOW)

Fact of the matter... I agree with you that the national and international class have little relevance to the local club or regional sailor BECAUSE THEY DO NOTHING....   I had a low bar.... publish a summary of the yearly class budget  (after they clearly mis spent it one year)...  as well as  they had a different vision of what they should do for the club sailing level and what things they had no interest in doing.   So, .  When the fun factor from my point of view went negative... I sold the boat. 

The issue remains.  WHAT DO YOU WANT the national class association and the International class to actually DELIVER for grass roots sailing.... Your "stop lying"  is an idiosyncratic demand that doesn't get a lot of heads nodding in agreement.  So just answer Bill5s question!

Try reading.  Its a great life skill.  I did.

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25 minutes ago, Wess said:

Try reading.  Its a great life skill.  I did.

you want the CA to try reading?

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

You clearly have a reading comprehension problem.  And I don't recall needing, asking for, or wanting anyone's support for anything Laser related.  But do have a nice day LOL.

Hey... they have this thing... "cut and paste"....   YOU could use that to go through your posts from any thread you want ... cut what you want and paste it here and ANSWER the question.   Obviously, with my limited reading comprehension... I could not do that...  I might take you out of context... I would NEVER capture your argument,.   So, If you want to persuade anyone.... make your argument... 

Quote

I don't recall needing, asking for, or wanting anyone's support for anything Laser related

If that is really your position???...  god only knows why you do this.!

(ssh.... AND I AGREE WITH YOU that they don't support grass roots fleets.)

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12 hours ago, Tcatman said:

(ssh.... AND I AGREE WITH YOU that they don't support grass roots fleets.)

What do you consider a grass roots fleet? (I apologize if you already stated this in an earlier post).

To me a grass roots fleet can be defined from an actual district down to a small lake in the in Raleigh NC, (for example).  So, with MY defined parameters allow me to edumacate ya'll some.

Me - D12 Secretary- NA-ILCA has been VERY supportive of me trying to redevelop a once very popular district back to it's former glory.  Our results have been fantastic! AND the NA-ILCA office has only declined one request I've made.  I asked if I could get reimbursed an entry fee for 3- D12 member sailors to sail a J22 in the SAYRA, (Regional Governing Body) Club Championship Event.  This was the first time in History that our District entered into this event.  It's also the first time in D12 history that D12 is a recognized club of SAYRA because we JOINED SAYRA!  Which has been a huge part of our growth, (and dues are reimbursed by NA-ILCA).  For the past several years I have attended the annual SARYA convention, (NA-ILCA reimburses part of my hotel-I don't ask for my upgrade price) and have spoken 2 times about...wait for it...fleet building!  As a result, and for the first time in years, I have many Opti parents coming to me for lasers because they now realize there's something other than a 420 beyond the Opti oh, and SOME parents want a laser for themselves!

Now- how do we support the small lake fleet?  Well, some time ago I caught wind of this small rogue group of laser folks and I reached out to them and asked them to come sail one of our D12 events.  2 or 3 showed up and we spent a lot of time talking with them.  "A lot of us use non-class legal sails" they said.  "We love to race, but we don't want to be super serious" they said.  Awesome! I said.  Bring your non-class legal asses to our next regatta!  Guess what?  They brought 6 of them!  Then they came to more events.  Last year we awarded their group one of our 7 District events and we had a near record crowd.  They are still stronger locally than those who travel, but they are supported for their efforts by God!

Now- support doesn't just grow on trees.  It takes lots of effort.  If you are a couch potato waiting for laser sailing to drop in your lap then good luck with that!  I'm always promoting the class.  The class gives me extra magazine copies, (when I ask!) to distribute at regattas.  We have D12 bumper stickers, t-shirts a travelling banner and we're working on pennies for 2020.  If you read the most recent "ILCA Sailor" magazine you'll see a nice little write up on a training seminar we had in February.  Others in our group have caught the fever and they are working on their local lake fleets.  That to me is the "roots" of "Grass Roots".  However, if you're expecting a travelling representative from the ILCA to come camp out at your club for a couple of months to get your fleet on the water then keep waiting amigo....Or, that could happen if our dues were $200/year and we had a lot more members.  Shoot, for the right money I'd do it!

So, if you are one who needs things handed to you then I'm sure you are often disappointed which is a shame because there's a lot of cool stuff out there, but you gotta reach for it.

 

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

What do you consider a grass roots fleet? (I apologize if you already stated this in an earlier post).

To me a grass roots fleet can be defined from an actual district down to a small lake in the in Raleigh NC, (for example).  So, with MY defined parameters allow me to edumacate ya'll some.

Me - D12 Secretary- NA-ILCA has been VERY supportive of me trying to redevelop a once very popular district back to it's former glory.  Our results have been fantastic! AND the NA-ILCA office has only declined one request I've made.  I asked if I could get reimbursed an entry fee for 3- D12 member sailors to sail a J22 in the SAYRA, (Regional Governing Body) Club Championship Event.  This was the first time in History that our District entered into this event.  It's also the first time in D12 history that D12 is a recognized club of SAYRA because we JOINED SAYRA!  Which has been a huge part of our growth, (and dues are reimbursed by NA-ILCA).  For the past several years I have attended the annual SARYA convention, (NA-ILCA reimburses part of my hotel-I don't ask for my upgrade price) and have spoken 2 times about...wait for it...fleet building!  As a result, and for the first time in years, I have many Opti parents coming to me for lasers because they now realize there's something other than a 420 beyond the Opti oh, and SOME parents want a laser for themselves!

Now- how do we support the small lake fleet?  Well, some time ago I caught wind of this small rogue group of laser folks and I reached out to them and asked them to come sail one of our D12 events.  2 or 3 showed up and we spent a lot of time talking with them.  "A lot of us use non-class legal sails" they said.  "We love to race, but we don't want to be super serious" they said.  Awesome! I said.  Bring your non-class legal asses to our next regatta!  Guess what?  They brought 6 of them!  Then they came to more events.  Last year we awarded their group one of our 7 District events and we had a near record crowd.  They are still stronger locally than those who travel, but they are supported for their efforts by God!

Now- support doesn't just grow on trees.  It takes lots of effort.  If you are a couch potato waiting for laser sailing to drop in your lap then good luck with that!  I'm always promoting the class.  The class gives me extra magazine copies, (when I ask!) to distribute at regattas.  We have D12 bumper stickers, t-shirts a travelling banner and we're working on pennies for 2020.  If you read the most recent "ILCA Sailor" magazine you'll see a nice little write up on a training seminar we had in February.  Others in our group have caught the fever and they are working on their local lake fleets.  That to me is the "roots" of "Grass Roots".  However, if you're expecting a travelling representative from the ILCA to come camp out at your club for a couple of months to get your fleet on the water then keep waiting amigo....Or, that could happen if our dues were $200/year and we had a lot more members.  Shoot, for the right money I'd do it!

So, if you are one who needs things handed to you then I'm sure you are often disappointed which is a shame because there's a lot of cool stuff out there, but you gotta reach for it.

 

Good post. 

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Quote

What do you consider a grass roots fleet? (I apologize if you already stated this in an earlier post). 

To me a grass roots fleet can be defined from an actual district down to a small lake in the in Raleigh NC, (for example).  So, with MY defined parameters allow me to edumacate ya'll some.

The ILCA was forced to get involved in business and Olympic issues that were to say the least challenging.  This thread is simply not the optimal one for this important debate.  However, Wess continues to raise the point with his idiosyncratic point of view about class fees, lying etc etc  and ties it to local support.  So either you treat him like a troll or request that he answer the damn question.

I agree with your definition of grass root fleet.   I acknowledge and salute your personal effort and hard work for your region.  I would say that   a full exploration of the issue is certainly warranted and that is probably the intent of the US Sailing one design survey and working group.  Moreover, it's multiple issues that need to be addressed AND every class is different.    IME,  the majority of racers focus on their personal fun factor.  To be sure, they will do what you request of them with limits  but don't address the larger structural issues the class's and sport faces.   Consequently, the number of folks interested in this problem is small. 

To your specific question,  I would point to the discussion with MamboKings about the Viper 640 model as to HOW a national class could and should work at the level of the grass roots.    It seems to me that this national class association has thought about what they should and could be doing and put in place structures that make a difference in the local pond.   I would distinguish two models. .... your experience is that the national class has been willing to HELP you and your division for all of the initiatives whereas the Viper class has BUILT the  structures that might grow grass roots Viper sailing.    I think of it this way... back in the day, the printed glossy class magazine was the primary structure that  a newbie to the class would receive and this structure got him into the local fleet and local activities.  OK... in 2020 do you think the glossy class mag does this job anymore?   If not... what structure does the national class association replace it with?    Keep in mind many sailors don't value this conversation  AT ALL....    The flip side of the coin would be...  ah.... focusing on local fleets is a waste of energy.   What matters for single handed sailors is the national circuit that competitors will choose to do as much or as little of as they want.  In this model, the fleet in question is the national fleet.   

A worth while debate and the solutions for single handers could be very different then solutions for two, three, four and larger team race boats.

 

And I agree with VWAP,   a very good post!

 

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The role of a CA has been endlessly rehearsed in these threads, together with what it brings at all levels, directly and indirectly. Wess ain't listening, so its pointless trying to discuss. When the dust settles on the pandemic we shall see who's left standing, individuals, companies, organisations and even the structure of the sport, and its possible, even probable that so many goalposts will have moved that all the current discussion will be quite irrelevant.

 

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12 minutes ago, JimC said:

The role of a CA has been endlessly rehearsed in these threads, together with what it brings at all levels, directly and indirectly. Wess ain't listening, so its pointless trying to discuss. When the dust settles on the pandemic we shall see who's left standing, individuals, companies, organisations and even the structure of the sport, and its possible, even probable that so many goalposts will have moved that all the current discussion will be quite irrelevant.

 

good post

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29 minutes ago, JimC said:

 and its possible, even probable that so many goalposts will have moved that all the current discussion will be quite irrelevant.

This is my biggest fear.  Not to mention how this will affect a lot of us professionally as well as our "disposable" income....

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

This is my biggest fear.  Not to mention how this will affect a lot of us professionally as well as our "disposable" income....

Ya, well, in the meantime we need to keep entertaining ourselves! Great work in D12, Robbie - sounds like our District in the early-80s. I was the Secretary here for a couple seasons, but all was done here, with no direct assistance from the association (but I never asked). Silk screening our own t-shirts, having fun regattas at remote lakes with minimal (if any) facilities, team racing with a team draft/bbq/calcutta the night before - all fun stuff! 

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16 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

....

Last year we voted on ONE change. We removed the requirement the BUILDER had to have rights to use the Laser  IP stuff.

We never voted to allow other brands. 
 We never voted to remove the required Laser starburst on the sails. 
We never voted to allow sails with ILCA where our rules describe the required starburst.

Quite simply, there have been a whole lot of changes made to the Constitution and rules without first having a vote. 

Maybe we would have voted for all the changes but the Constitution is very clear about how it and our rules May be amended .

................

Associations are defined by their Constitutions. Games are defined by sets of rules. Those who are making up new Constitutional wording and modifying our game most certainly mean well but they cannot “just do it.”

Am I  wrong?

................

 

No, Gouv, you are absolutely right !

As I see it, ILCA have just hijacked the whole process and is ignoring the Class Constitution and By-Laws.

Talk about double standards..

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Ya, well, in the meantime we need to keep entertaining ourselves! Great work in D12, Robbie - sounds like our District in the early-80s. I was the Secretary here for a couple seasons, but all was done here, with no direct assistance from the association (but I never asked). Silk screening our own t-shirts, having fun regattas at remote lakes with minimal (if any) facilities, team racing with a team draft/bbq/calcutta the night before - all fun stuff! 

good post

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5 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

I would almost certainly vote for each of the necessary rule changes.

My point... None of the rule or Constitutional changes can happen without proper procedure. 
 

I simply don’t get why anybody is ignoring the procedure. 
 

I do get tolerating the lack of procedure as most of us couldn’t give a shit 

But...

At some time that lack of procedure is going to swing  around and bite . 
 

Here is something our current officers will not be able to say:

 

We knew we had to act to re-establish a toy supply. We knew the process would leave LP as an unhappy company. We crossed every t and dotted every i in an effort to protect both the game and those of us involved in extracting our game from the control of LP.  Our game will not be disrupted by continued fighting because we left nothing about which anyone could fight. 

Perhaps you could make a list of the rules you think were changed?

Regarding the branding, most I know understood that if the rule requiring the Laser trademark to be used was removed, then other brands would be used. If that wasn't your understanding Gouv, what was? What did you think would happen if the acquirement was removed?

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18 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Ya, well, in the meantime we need to keep entertaining ourselves! Great work in D12, Robbie - sounds like our District in the early-80s. I was the Secretary here for a couple seasons, but all was done here, with no direct assistance from the association (but I never asked). Silk screening our own t-shirts, having fun regattas at remote lakes with minimal (if any) facilities, team racing with a team draft/bbq/calcutta the night before - all fun stuff! 

Yes.  We've been using a few camping friendly venues, (which seen to be only at fresh water venues).  Everybody loves those and you see these as the events where folks bring the whole family.   

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On 4/2/2020 at 10:59 PM, Gouvernail said:

Anyone ??

For most of fifty years we have occasionally modified the class rules. 
We have voted on tiny nearly insignificant changes and major changes.

We have voted on EVERY change.

Last year we voted on ONE change. We removed the requirement the BUILDER had to have rights to use the Laser  IP stuff.

We never voted to allow other brands. 
 We never voted to remove the required Laser starburst on the sails. 
We never voted to allow sails with ILCA where our rules describe the required starburst.

Quite simply, there have been a whole lot of changes made to the Constitution and rules without first having a vote. 

Maybe we would have voted for all the changes but the Constitution is very clear about how it and our rules May be amended .

As I see it, the process has not been properly completed. 

It wouldn’t be all that hard to post EVERY SINGLE CHANGE and have voted for EVERY SINGLE CHANGE and it would be the right way to do it 

Associations are defined by their Constitutions. Games are defined by sets of rules. Those who are making up new Constitutional wording and modifying our game most certainly mean well but they cannot “just do it.”

Am I  wrong? is there any reason it is OK to simply blow off the process and do what we damn well please? 
 

Currently the game is on hiatus. There May never be a more opportune time to pass around the ballots necessary to modify the constitution and rules.

Why not do it right? 
 

 

 

Why?  Because they might lose that second vote having so badly screwed up implementation of their strategy around the first one?

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8 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

I don’t think the vote would be any different EXCEPT those who have been complaining about the heavy handed ness and lack of transparency would no longer have a complaint About how the rules were changed 

Oh I don't think it would change either.  I woulds bet EurILCA folks still don't turn out but I could be wrong. It would be interesting to see what they (collectively)  would do if they had another chance/vote to stop ILCA.  One thing for sure is ILCA ain't gonna take that chance any time soon or at least until and unless they have an EU builder up and selling boats and that still ain't gonna happen any time soon.

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19 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

 those who have been complaining about the heavy handed ness and lack of transparency would no longer have a complaint 

I admire your optimism! Whinger's gotta and gonna whinge. The art of the practical includes knowing when to spend limited resources on things that are more important than the impossible task of placating the unplacatable. Not that I'm any great fan of the ILCA approach, but there's certainly logic in not worrying about dotting the is and crossing ts of fine detail rule changes until you know exactly what's required, which may well depend on what ends up being in builder contracts.

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On 4/3/2020 at 12:18 PM, JimC said:

The role of a CA has been endlessly rehearsed in these threads, together with what it brings at all levels, directly and indirectly. Wess ain't listening, so its pointless trying to discuss. When the dust settles on the pandemic we shall see who's left standing, individuals, companies, organisations and even the structure of the sport, and its possible, even probable that so many goalposts will have moved that all the current discussion will be quite irrelevant.

  

Well this is a brutal reality check!  Sadly, this is the context we have to live in going forward.   What information do we have about how builders, Natl orgs, classes, clubs, sailors, consumer recreational dollars,  weathered the previous global fuck ups.      I have no big picture sense of what happened during previous meltdowns...    Hell, I remember a previous oil spike generating... threads of... well... this will be good for sailing since the jet ski's will be forced to go away..  Has anybody looked at the past and thought critically about what can be done and worked and what options exist for the future?

Dr Gotleib, ex Trump appointment and smart, described the future as an 80% economy until an effective vacine and a couple of seasonal cycles have passed.  What's that mean for recreational racing, etc etc.

First place to ask might be Gouv.  What was the big picture when you were class pres... before your term and after?  How did the builders think of it.  (on topic for this thread)

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We have beat this thing to death, but...

3 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

The members voted to quit insisting builders have the right to use the Laser logo and name .  

We never voted to change the name of the Association.

We never voted to remove the word Laser or replace it with ILCA 

We never voted to remove the requirements about the starburst on the  sail. 
We never voted to allow use of toys bearing other names and logos. 
 

The name hasn't changed. It's still The International Laser Class Association.

I don't recall and can't find the actual vote document, but the following is referred in the 2020 rules:

"ILCA By-Law 1: Rules (Parts one to five inclusive) Valid from 1st January 2020. Cancels all previous rules and interpretations. RECENT CHANGES: 1 January 2020 Definition of Builder modified. Other class rules affected by this rule change were modified to be consistent with the amended definition of Builder."

I am not sure how much liberty was taken by the last sentence, if this verbiage was included in the vote document, or if removing the word Laser and the logo would be considered above and beyond what was legally necessary. Thoughts?

 

 

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You are far from the only person to say that Gouv. If you go back in this thread there were many people who commented that the class would not be able to do what they are doing without a second vote.  I think (have not confirmed; doing this from recall) that there were even class officials that said that.  But you are crazy if you think that second vote will ever happen.  I can't believe that ILCA or PSA would ever allow it.

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So do you think they will ever hold that second vote?  Not should... "will" they?

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

So do you think they will ever hold that second vote?  Not should... "will" they?

I bet The Laser Class will hold a vote to change the Builder rule!

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On 3/31/2020 at 6:22 PM, Bill5 said:

If TLC is to be the "grassroots" class, why on God's green earth do they want to be a WS recognized class? 

Good question... I would say that they are not aiming to serve only the grassroots... they are just doing a better job of that than ILCA/PSA are doing...  If they can succeed in getting the numbers then they would want to be able to cater for the elite as well, hence the pursuit of recognition... they don't really want ILCA to continue to be the only game in town for top end Laser competition, so their stated aim is to offer an alternative, at least in the short term.  If ILCA fades then so much the better for them, presumably.

 For the "grassroots" or club sailor, though they seem to be a more attractive organisation, at this point. Hence, the question, why not back them?   The answers so far have not been very convincing, IMHO...   

Cheers,

              W.

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2 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

I would say that they are not aiming to serve only the grassroots... they are just doing a better job of that than ILCA/PSA are doing..

Are they actually *doing* anything at all?

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35 minutes ago, JimC said:

Are they actually *doing* anything at all?

2130665193_ScreenShot2020-04-09at4_01_46PM.thumb.png.40680a5a4c10ee1ce8eb31a9fa40f621.png

Hey, it's not huge - but it is something. And it is free.
 

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18 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Good question... I would say that they are not aiming to serve only the grassroots... they are just doing a better job of that than ILCA/PSA are doing...  If they can succeed in getting the numbers then they would want to be able to cater for the elite as well, hence the pursuit of recognition... they don't really want ILCA to continue to be the only game in town for top end Laser competition, so their stated aim is to offer an alternative, at least in the short term.  If ILCA fades then so much the better for them, presumably.

 For the "grassroots" or club sailor, though they seem to be a more attractive organisation, at this point. Hence, the question, why not back them?   The answers so far have not been very convincing, IMHO...   

Cheers,

              W.

While I agree they are... being positioned as the lesser of the evils is not exactly convincing either.  Picking between them and ILCA... sure I would pick The Laser Class, especially if in Europe. 

But I have my doubts about their focus on grass roots and their sustainability.  ILCA, PSA and WS seem like they are all aligned and determined to steamroll TLC and LPE out of existence.  And I suspect they ultimately will.  The boat (and class construct) that used to be a Laser will literally be no more.

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43 minutes ago, Wess said:

While I agree they are... being positioned as the lesser of the evils is not exactly convincing either.  Picking between them and ILCA... sure I would pick The Laser Class, especially if in Europe. 

But I have my doubts about their focus on grass roots and their sustainability.  ILCA, PSA and WS seem like they are all aligned and determined to steamroll TLC and LPE out of existence.  And I suspect they ultimately will.  The boat (and class construct) that used to be a Laser will literally be no more.

Lasers will literally be no more?  I respectfully disagree.  

The WS/ILCA/PSA cartel may do their best to destroy the Laser and replace it with the ILCA thing, but they will not succeed. There are just too many grass-roots followers of the Laser who will stay faithful to the original spirit of the Laser class and the Laser brand. ILCA/PSA will dwindle to a niche supplier of over-priced boats to the tiny minority chasing dreams of Olympic glory, and even that market will dry up when the ILCA gets kicked out of the Olympics at the next trials in 2027.

Long live the Laser and The Laser Class!

 

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3 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Lasers will literally be no more?  I respectfully disagree.  

The WS/ILCA/PSA cartel may do their best to destroy the Laser and replace it with the ILCA thing, but they will not succeed. There are just too many grass-roots followers of the Laser who will stay faithful to the original spirit of the Laser class and the Laser brand. WS/ILCA/PSA will dwindle to a niche supplier of boats to the tiny minority chasing dreams of Olympic glory, and even that market will dry up when the ILCA gets kicked out of the Olympics at the next trials in 2027.

Long live the Laser and The Laser Class!

 

Maybe.  But for that to happen somebody has to be making and selling the Laser.  Not an ILCA with new rigs, sails, boards and all the tweaks still to come but the original Kirby/Bruce affordable and easy to rig LASER.  Without a builder(s) of the original version the grass roots class eventually dies too. Now maybe we get to the point where there are new affordable generic Lasers being built and sold - and I would welcome that day - but I have my doubts.  I suspect the Aero and something like it has a better future that either the Laser or the ILCA. 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Very interesting!  Wonder what Aero does with all that extra money they sell them for.  Surely it's highway robbery to sell a single handed dingy for that kind of money!

Well with the Aero you get a boat that doesn't keep changing and obsoleting original boats and especially original equipment.  And you get a class and class leadership that doesn't abandon the very foundational construct (SMOD) the class was built on just to chase and kowtow to a bunch of bankrupt (or reportedly nearly so) baboons in WS some of whom appear to be facing ethics charges from within (hmmm... maybe reminds me of ILCA, birds of a feather flock together I guess??) in the near future??  While not tested under pressure the Aero class leadership doesn't appear put out statements over and over again that are incorrect or misleading.  And finally you get a class that is actually focused on grass roots sailing and selling more boats in the US than ILCAs are.  So maybe its about more than just price alone??

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51 minutes ago, Wess said:

Well with the Aero you get a boat that doesn't keep changing and obsoleting original boats and especially original equipment.  And you get a class and class leadership that doesn't abandon the very foundational construct (SMOD) the class was built on just to chase and kowtow to a bunch of bankrupt (or reportedly nearly so) baboons in WS some of whom appear to be facing ethics charges from within (hmmm... maybe reminds me of ILCA, birds of a feather flock together I guess??) in the near future??  While not tested under pressure the Aero class leadership doesn't appear put out statements over and over again that are incorrect or misleading.  And finally you get a class that is actually focused on grass roots sailing and selling more boats in the US than ILCAs are.  So maybe its about more than just price alone??

And you get a much better boat.
.
 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Well with the Aero you get a boat that doesn't keep changing and obsoleting original boats and especially original equipment.  And you get a class and class leadership that doesn't abandon the very foundational construct (SMOD) the class was built on just to chase and kowtow to a bunch of bankrupt (or reportedly nearly so) baboons in WS some of whom appear to be facing ethics charges from within (hmmm... maybe reminds me of ILCA, birds of a feather flock together I guess??) in the near future??  While not tested under pressure the Aero class leadership doesn't appear put out statements over and over again that are incorrect or misleading.  And finally you get a class that is actually focused on grass roots sailing and selling more boats in the US than ILCAs are.  So maybe its about more than just price alone??

Give it 30 years and then get back to me on the boat changes.....

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Give it 30 years and then get back to me on the boat changes.....

Exactly so. RS have shown themselves willing to make changes when the need is there and to drop classes when the demand is not. Of the four early RS racing classes two are out of production at RS and the other two have had completely new designs of sail.

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

Exactly so. RS have shown themselves willing to make changes when the need is there and to drop classes when the demand is not. Of the four early RS racing classes two are out of production at RS and the other two have had completely new designs of sail.

And if they do, that would be why they would never do what Laser did long ago... produce and sell 200,000 plus boats that can race in an OD fleet... and have large OD fleets everywhere.

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4 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Give it 30 years and then get back to me on the boat changes.....

In the last 5 years they've changed the boat layup a couple of times, changed the mainsail bolt-rope design, introduced a couple of different revisions of mast deck ring, had 3 different rudder stock revisions, looking at introducing a 4th rig, etc etc.  But that's the manufacturer/class responding to feedback ;)

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1 hour ago, JMP said:

In the last 5 years they've changed the boat layup a couple of times, changed the mainsail bolt-rope design, introduced a couple of different revisions of mast deck ring, had 3 different rudder stock revisions, looking at introducing a 4th rig, etc etc.  But that's the manufacturer/class responding to feedback ;)

Is the boat faster or just better? .....  Do actual competitors within a level of the pecking order actually care about these differences... or is it ... SFU and race.   Does a new main for an event make more of a difference then a rudder stock revision between two boats. 

Me thinks this part of the  laser fairy tale is a bit oversold and NOT the critical reason for success over the years.

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The rudder stock might make the difference between finishing a race or not ;)

The laser hull has had TONS of internal changes over the years, you just have to take a look at the previous threads with photo's of cut-up old lasers to show how many differences there were between generations/manufacturers

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13 hours ago, Tcatman said:

Is the boat faster or just better? ....

Fortunately, perhaps, when it comes to these small constructional changes establishing whether boat A is faster round the track than boat B is an extremely difficult and time consuming exercise. Its virtually never done: in fact with constructional changes I'm not sure its ever been done. It requires a great deal of data and solid statistical analysis. And in any case such tiny differences are in practice overwhelmed by the difference in performance by individual sailors and who gets the breaks in individual races. So in practice it all comes down to bull**** and rumour and no-one knows. That's one of the reasons why I think its wise of the Laser class to keep the construction manual and the doubtless many incremental improvements that have been made over the decades secret. If no-one knows that a small change was made then they can't make up totally baseless and unfounded rumours about the effects it might (but doesn't) have.

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On 4/11/2020 at 7:47 AM, JimC said:

That's one of the reasons why I think its wise of the Laser class to keep the construction manual and the doubtless many incremental improvements that have been made over the decades secret. If no-one knows that a small change was made then they can't make up totally baseless and unfounded rumours about the effects it might (but doesn't) have.

Rumors will exist regardless. Better to be transparent IMHO. But I agree that it’s still the sailor that determines performance.

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On 4/11/2020 at 7:47 AM, JimC said:

Fortunately, perhaps, when it comes to these small constructional changes establishing whether boat A is faster round the track than boat B is an extremely difficult and time consuming exercise. Its virtually never done: in fact with constructional changes I'm not sure its ever been done. It requires a great deal of data and solid statistical analysis. And in any case such tiny differences are in practice overwhelmed by the difference in performance by individual sailors and who gets the breaks in individual races. So in practice it all comes down to bull**** and rumour and no-one knows. That's one of the reasons why I think its wise of the Laser class to keep the construction manual and the doubtless many incremental improvements that have been made over the decades secret. If no-one knows that a small change was made then they can't make up totally baseless and unfounded rumours about the effects it might (but doesn't) have.

But ILCA is not doing small incremental changes anymore; they are doing more significant changes such that it does impact performance even at a club level.  With an ILCA you can buy a better regatta result which is contrary to what Laser was. 

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

But ILCA is not doing small incremental changes anymore; they are doing more significant changes such that it does impact performance even at a club level.  With an ILCA you can buy a better regatta result which is contrary to what Laser was. 

Proof, please.

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12 minutes ago, Wess said:

But ILCA is not doing small incremental changes anymore; they are doing more significant changes such that it does impact performance even at a club level.  With an ILCA you can buy a better regatta result which is contrary to what Laser was. 

While I understand your point and agree with it on principle, the reality at our club is that the best sailor wins, even if he has a boat in the 12xxx range, versus 197xxx and newer boats. We have never had a situation where newest equipment inherently wins, and it's true amongst all of our current fleets.

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39 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Proof, please.

Bill - Dig back through your own posts.  You yourself talking about your own fleet talked about how if you did have X then.... and Robbie talked about how gear Y made a lot of difference and if I recall correctly was also quoting other (elite) sailors saying same.  Oh and no I am not going to find it for you.  But you and I know its true.

My problem with you lemming Bill is that you are like the orange haired man.  You can never tell the whole truth.  You just endless spin back to the same old ILCA bullshit even when its bullshit.  ILCA ain't all bad but your current leadership did lots wrong and screwed up tons.  And are focused on one small segment of sailors.  But you can never admit the truth.  One the other hand I don't run around pretending TLC or LL or whatever they heck they are doing now is perfect.  Their shit stinks too.  But if you want to wallow in (and swallow) shit go ahead.  But eventually your hair is going to turn orange.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Bill - Dig back through your own posts.  You yourself talking about your own fleet talked about how if you did have X then.... and Robbie talked about how gear Y made a lot of difference and if I recall correctly was also quoting other (elite) sailors saying same.  Oh and no I am not going to find it for you.  But you and I know its true.

My problem with you lemming Bill is that you are like the orange haired man.  You can never tell the whole truth.  You just endless spin back to the same old ILCA bullshit even when its bullshit.  ILCA ain't all bad but your current leadership did lots wrong and screwed up tons.  And are focused on one small segment of sailors.  But you can never admit the truth.  One the other hand I don't run around pretending TLC or LL or whatever they heck they are doing now is perfect.  Their shit stinks too.  But if you want to wallow in (and swallow) shit go ahead.  But eventually your hair is going to turn orange.

Haha! Nice troll. I’ll pass.

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Was actually serious with some of that one Bill.  Though yea there is one little sock I am having great fun annoying I admit but not aimed at you.  On the topic you did talk and post about how there were things that even at a club level fleet you thought would make a difference to how one finished in your fleet. 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Was actually serious with some of that one Bill.  Though yea there is one little sock I am having great fun annoying I admit but not aimed at you.  On the topic you did talk and post about how there were things that even at a club level fleet you thought would make a difference to how one finished in your fleet. 

I honestly don't recall posting something that suggested you could buy a better regatta result. Although there is a modicum of truth in this - as with any dinghy - as oftentimes purchasing a new sail will enhance your boat's performance. Especially for the grassrooter with a real old sail. That is not an ILCA phenomenon.

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I haven't checked this thread since february, did I miss anything  (really) interesting?

 

If not I'll skip reading the whole thing, so help will be appreciated.

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