Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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3 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

*What would be the result of a lawsuit complaining about the Monopoly ILCA keeping LP out of the racing toy supply market? 

Surely the 'LP refused to let us inspect their manufacturing -> breached our agreement' argument would be pretty strong.

The problem is LP appear to have a pretty strong 'they have been planning & setting this up for ages' argument.

But I think its still directly caused by LPs shitty business practices attempting to control the class through dodgy practices rather than being a servant of the class association eg they could have avoided this particular case happening by allowing ILCA to inspect the manufacturing.

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So are we pronouncing the boat boat 'ill - car'? And the class association 'ill-car-car'?

Maybe they can out out a video informing us how to say it? Like Huawei helpfully did...

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5 hours ago, hoom said:

Surely the 'LP refused to let us inspect their manufacturing -> breached our agreement' argument would be pretty strong.

The problem is LP appear to have a pretty strong 'they have been planning & setting this up for ages' argument.

But I think its still directly caused by LPs shitty business practices attempting to control the class through dodgy practices rather than being a servant of the class association eg they could have avoided this particular case happening by allowing ILCA to inspect the manufacturing.

how about the defence is , "The class voted to use another boat with another name, thanks LP but goodbye"

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4 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Summary:  I think a whole lot of grief is going to go on and that grief will detract from our play. 

I think you're not wrong.

But LP practices of trying to bully ILCA is clearly LPs own doing rather than ILCA fault.

 

2 hours ago, Sailabout said:

how about the defence is , "The class voted to use another boat with another name, thanks LP but goodbye" 

Which would be fine if it had happened but it didn't unless I missed something.

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Oh, I think anyone who thinks turning the Laser into a open builder measurement based class will result in long lived cheap boats with no difference in performance is living in dreamworld. Historically competition between builders within a class has always been on performance and led to cost escalation, and in Olympic classes to a spectacular degree.  

But hopefully that won't happen. Its going to be very interesting what does happen, if we ever get to see the builder contracts, but I imagine it will involve things like buying an authorised plug and more rigorous inspections and external QC of the building process. No doubt the painful words ISO9001 will come into it. The process of ensuring that all the hulls are equally well built to the construction manual will be painful and expensive, and I suspect lead to a more expensive boat than single supplier competitors. But I doubt It can ever be as expensive as having builders compete on performance is.

 

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2 hours ago, Sailabout said:

how about the defence is , "The class voted to use another boat with another name, thanks LP but goodbye"

 

14 minutes ago, hoom said:

Which would be fine if it had happened but it didn't unless I missed something.

Not going to be a hard vote for ILCA to win. Vote for this or its no Worlds next year or for the immediate future.

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13 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

Again, I don’t know where you guys get some of this stuff.

You think quality will go up?    (is quality ‘bad’ now? And is ‘better’ the same as ‘faster’?  And if so, do you determine what is ‘better’)

Lower prices, I guess that is possible, but, imagine quality and service will decline quickly.  Once you remove the profitability from a product, service and quality go next.

Better service.  Again, just, lol.  How many regattas does Intensity Sails sponsor and give money to? Or attend?  Or charter boats do they provide at key events?  Or youth sailors do they support?  How about CISA, ICSA/ISSA... 

 

I’m sorry to sound like a dick all this thread.. but you guys all live in some weird fantasy land that is not connected to reality in any way shape or form.

 

 

 

 

14 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

Because, they are not.
This is a pure class on class, class on builder dispute 100%.


All parties are working overtime behind the scenes keeping WS up to date on their ‘plans’.
But, no one knows what WS will decide in a few weeks.

And WS isn’t involved with this situation at all as you suppose.
 

 

11 hours ago, Curious said:

We "ALL" live in a weird fantasy land? Even Steve Clark? 

Everything written by everyone else in this entire thread is wrong? Really? On what basis can you claim that, and what credentials do you have that allow you to pour scorn on ALL of us?

How can we "all" be wrong when there has been such a variety of views posted on this thread?

Are you an ILCA insider? If so you should be aware that some of us are doing the right thing and going to ILCA AGMs and talking to ILCA council members, so if we are getting everything wrong then ILCA must be giving out the wrong message. Personally I think it's more probable that you're just taking yourself very seriously. 

 

I am not understanding all the argument.  I think both you guys - heck most on here - are making reasonable statements.

There is little we know for sure other than:

1.) ILCA has terminated LPE as a builder, claiming for cause right to do so, and has changed the name of the class and boat they will race to ILCA, dropping all reference to Laser, a trademark they concede is owned in most territories by LPE.

2.) There has been some grumbling by some class members and organizations about this unilateral international class action that was taken without any vote by class members.

3.) ILCA has indicated they have no current plans to change the boat, other than the name... (ie it will be built as it is today via the construction manual)

4.) LPE has claimed they will continue to make and sell Lasers - as a club Laser - in their territories and are offering them at a ~25% discount and that they will modify the construction to make the boats stronger and last longer.

5.) WS is slated to make an Olympic dinghy selection in mid May.

I think beyond this we are all just speculating and guessing.  But based on above its maybe reasonable to say:

6.) The quality of the ILCA dinghy will not improve... by definition its going to be the same boat built from the same construction manual... THE SAME.  That seems a good thing for everyone racing Lasers or whatever they call them.

7.) The price of the ILCA dinghy is likely to go up and the amount of supplied boats at events likely to go down.  I doubt its a massive change but decreasing demand (that trend is well documented) and increased competition (LPE staying in the market is a given... at least according to them) sort of makes this inevitable.

Beyond that its just wild speculation with little data:

8.) Is WS going to support LPE or ILCA... no clue!

9.) Will Laser stay in the Olympics... no clue!

10.) Will ILCA adopt the new rigs... no clue!  Depending on how done its got some pretty broad implications though including the potential to try to lock out LPE at the club level.

11.) Will LPE survive... no clue but guessing not if their only response is club Laser at a 25% discount.  I think its going to take a discount more like what we saw with parts and sails to drive behavior at the club level.

12.) Will ILCA survive... no clue!

Anyway, ILCA has now pushed all in.  Ball in LPE's court; time to sh*t or get off the pot!  And it will be interesting to see what cards dealer WS turns over on the flop.

Cheers all!

 

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52 minutes ago, JimC said:

 

Not going to be a hard vote for ILCA to win. Vote for this or its no Worlds next year or for the immediate future.

Unless the (majority?) European membership opts to side with LP... and votes down the switch in favour of continuing to operate as the Laser class.

 Pick up the LP recommendations on strategy, vote out the current ILCA leadership and relocate the class to Europe with professional executive, reappoint LP as a builder...

 No lawsuit, no disruption to supply.  There's a risk of losing the Olympics but that could be mitigated by the new class management team, if LP are on-board with what needs to be done to maintain that status (they claim they invited WS to inspect, after all).... and could well be significantly lower than the risk presented by the alternative fracture in the class and potential legal mayhem...

 Cheers,

                W.

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29 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

 

I am not understanding all the argument.  I think both you guys - heck most on here - are making reasonable statements.

There is little we know for sure other than:

1.) ILCA has terminated LPE as a builder, claiming for cause right to do so, and has changed the name of the class and boat they will race to ILCA, dropping all reference to Laser, a trademark they concede is owned in most territories by LPE.

2.) There has been some grumbling by some class members and organizations about this unilateral international class action that was taken without any vote by class members.

3.) ILCA has indicated they have no current plans to change the boat, other than the name... (ie it will be built as it is today via the construction manual)

4.) LPE has claimed they will continue to make and sell Lasers - as a club Laser - in their territories and are offering them at a ~25% discount and that they will modify the construction to make the boats stronger and last longer.

5.) WS is slated to make an Olympic dinghy selection in mid May.

I think beyond this we are all just speculating and guessing.  But based on above its maybe reasonable to say: 

6.) The quality of the ILCA dinghy will not improve... by definition its going to be the same boat built from the same construction manual... THE SAME.  That seems a good thing for everyone racing Lasers or whatever they call them.

7.) The price of the ILCA dinghy is likely to go up and the amount of supplied boats at events likely to go down.  I doubt its a massive change but decreasing demand (that trend is well documented) and increased competition (LPE staying in the market is a given... at least according to them) sort of makes this inevitable.

Beyond that its just wild speculation with little data:

8.) Is WS going to support LPE or ILCA... no clue!

9.) Will Laser stay in the Olympics... no clue!

10.) Will ILCA adopt the new rigs... no clue!  Depending on how done its got some pretty broad implications though including the potential to try to lock out LPE at the club level.

11.) Will LPE survive... no clue but guessing not if their only response is club Laser at a 25% discount.  I think its going to take a discount more like what we saw with parts and sails to drive behavior at the club level.

12.) Will ILCA survive... no clue!

Anyway, ILCA has now pushed all in.  Ball in LPE's court; time to sh*t or get off the pot!  And it will be interesting to see what cards dealer WS turns over on the flop.

Cheers all!

 

"beyond this we are all just speculating and guessing."

 

This.

 

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My read on the situation:

LP has materials in stock and on order, and a workforce whose notice period or contract need to be payed out. Somebody has calculated that they will lose less money by turning the materials and labour into non-approved boats that can be sold at little or no margin, than by walking away. Hence the "club edition". Who knows, if they sell well there might be an ongoing business there, but I don't think anyone is counting on it.

Of course, LP also has various legal irons in the fires. That's aside from their manufacturing dilemmas.

ILCA are waiting for LP to fold. While we wait, while LP is still breathing and bleeding, they own the Laser name. So ILCA need an interim name to use until LP cough and roll over. I don't think there will be ILCA Dinghies for very long.

Once the name becomes available (for a price that is agreeable to a slightly wounded class association and a dried-up shell of a failed boat builder with legal bills to pay), ILCA will settle, take control of the name, re-name the class (again), and the ILCA logo sails will become (class-legal) collectors editions.

How long can a boat builder survive, building race boats without an established class organisation to race them?

I'll be in the kitchen preparing another batch of popcorn.

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21 minutes ago, OneGoat said:

Once the name becomes available (for a price that is agreeable to a slightly wounded class association and a dried-up shell of a failed boat builder with legal bills to pay), ILCA will settle, take control of the name, re-name the class (again), and the ILCA logo sails will become (class-legal) collectors editions.

How long can a boat builder survive, building race boats without an established class organisation to race them?

I'll be in the kitchen preparing another batch of popcorn.

Except that LPE builds about a dozen different classes, many of which aren't particularly racing craft and don't have much in the way of class associations,  and about half of which are marketed under the Laser brand with a Laser xxx name. So LPE (or whatever company is actually doing the serious trading because LPE's published financials suggest they aren't) aren't likely to fold any time soon, and in any case the trademark isn't owned by LPE but by another part of the Rastregar empire.

There are those who suggest that the future of mainstream dinghy sailing is with shared use corporately owned boats, and nothing LPE are doing suggests they do not have their eyes firmly targeted on such sales. Clubs buying rental boats will be seriously tempted to buy LPE Lasers, because they can word their SIs so they can race in club races, and aren't going to want members to cart them off to Opens and Worlds anyway.

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47 minutes ago, OneGoat said:

How long can a boat builder survive, building race boats without an established class organisation to race them?

It would be simple enough for them to start a rival class association.  

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2 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

It would be simple enough for them to start a rival class association.  

Thought they already did, no?  Now how many join and how active that class actually is, is a whole different question!

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2 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Unless the (majority?) European membership opts to side with LP... and votes down the switch in favour of continuing to operate as the Laser class.

 Pick up the LP recommendations on strategy, vote out the current ILCA leadership and relocate the class to Europe with professional executive, reappoint LP as a builder...

 No lawsuit, no disruption to supply.  There's a risk of losing the Olympics but that could be mitigated by the new class management team, if LP are on-board with what needs to be done to maintain that status (they claim they invited WS to inspect, after all).... and could well be significantly lower than the risk presented by the alternative fracture in the class and potential legal mayhem...

 Cheers,

                

Well, that was quick...

FB_IMG_1556290709385.jpg

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I'm OK with what it looks like the class has done. Would not like to see them make a move to cut Kirby out but it would be pretty easy to do at this point. New construction manual and he is gone.

 

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10 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

You are hosting an event or are a bunch of nice folks who have a fleet that races Lasers.

A group of sailors show up with Lasers that seem identical in every way to yours except those boats don’t have stickers in the cockpit or buttons on the sails.

The races start in two hours. What do you tell the six eager newbies? 

1. You are very welcome to race with our Laser fleet here any time you want. We have a regatta in a few weeks. Please come to that too.

2. Would you like to try out my RS Aero?

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6 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

If the six sailors just bought new Lasers I doubt they are good candidates to buy yet another new toy right away. 

Good point.

But if they can afford to buy one new boat they might be prepared to buy another new boat one day. Maybe they can even afford to own two boats.

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39 minutes ago, JimC said:

Except that LPE builds about a dozen different classes, many of which aren't particularly racing craft and don't have much in the way of class associations,  and about half of which are marketed under the Laser brand with a Laser xxx name. So LPE (or whatever company is actually doing the serious trading because LPE's published financials suggest they aren't) aren't likely to fold any time soon, and in any case the trademark isn't owned by LPE but by another part of the Rastregar empire.

There are those who suggest that the future of mainstream dinghy sailing is with shared use corporately owned boats, and nothing LPE are doing suggests they do not have their eyes firmly targeted on such sales. Clubs buying rental boats will be seriously tempted to buy LPE Lasers, because they can word their SIs so they can race in club races, and aren't going to want members to cart them off to Opens and Worlds anyway.

Ah   focus on the big picture of the future.. What is the future of racing from the viewpoint of the 20 to 40 year old sailor?  .....    just clarify  the language and I think you have it!... Specifically.... my issue is the definitions   "Club"   ie a community that shares a common interest and volunteers to further their mutual shared interest.  I define "corporately owned boats" as a business.. ie an organization that sells a product or service to a consumer.  Historically, we use the term... "Yacht clubs:    Today that term actual means  waterfront property owner with a bar,  restaurant and dock space.   Sometimes they are selling regatta services to consumers who come to race  with their  personal boat in an event once a year.    They keep up this  pretense to maintain their tax breaks.  The  core question for the future is... what is the meaning of "Club" to young racers over the next 20 years? I think the classic notion of  "Club"  is a tough model for a new generation of racers  raised playing video games.  IMO, they are used to buying services... not joining clubs..   For those business that see a small niche in sailboat racing... "Clubs" buying rental boats will be seriously tempted to buy LPE Lasers" is a smart forward looking business move 

The combination of declining interest in the sport of sailboat racing and the need for a large critical mass of racers to make the game entertaining clearly means consolidation... no matter if you are a  "Club" or "Business".     As the population of club racers ages out....younger sailors are more likely to purchase the regatta service along with the boat for a weekend rather  then maintain their own boat at a remote site..   The trends in auto and home ownership by young people portend this sea change.   ... heck even the trends in golf indicate a decline in interest in the game and even greater decline in the interest in joining a "Club". 

My view is that the ILCA should focus on impact of all of this BS on what the future of the notion of "Club" is to the 20 to 40 something racer.   I wouldn't really worry about what the elite amateur or olympic sailor wants.... they will take care of themselves.

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58 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Well, that was quick...

FB_IMG_1556290709385.jpg

LPE need to put up or STFU. If it’s illegal as they claim; then sue. If they are trying to convince members with their “call on membership” they and their 25% discount can keep dreaming.

it sounds like a bunch of empty talk. A lot like empty shelves LPE. 

So sue or go shut up already. I don’t want your club Laser.

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2 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Was?? Have you changed teams?? The only difference between an LP Laser and a “ILCA” is a sticker. 

Old Wess might ask, “Who gets the money from that sticker and how is that money spent  to help my local sailing fleet?”

 

The sticker and the sail badge cost $25 combined.  And LPE have shaved $1700 off their boat price to go without. 

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1 minute ago, bill4 said:

The sticker and the sail badge cost $25 combined.  And LPE have shaved $1700 off their boat price to go without. 

So if a club bought a fleet of, say, 10 Club Lasers, they would save $17,000 that they could spend on promotion, coaching, awards, beer, etc. etc.

Sounds like a good deal if your members are not the sort to go trekking off to ILCA-sanctioned regattas every weekend. In fact, as they would apparently not be welcome at such regattas, they would stay at home and sail at the club every weekend, to the benefit of the rest of the fleet.

 

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24 minutes ago, bill4 said:

The sticker and the sail badge cost $25 combined.  And LPE have shaved $1700 off their boat price to go without. 

but they will change the manufacturing, which will mean the boats will no longer be One-Design.

Kinda a big deal to some.

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15 minutes ago, tillerman said:

So if a club bought a fleet of, say, 10 Club Lasers, they would save $17,000 that they could spend on promotion, coaching, awards, beer, etc. etc.

Sounds like a good deal if your members are not the sort to go trekking off to ILCA-sanctioned regattas every weekend. In fact, as they would apparently not be welcome at such regattas, they would stay at home and sail at the club every weekend, to the benefit of the rest of the fleet.

 

With that logic, why buy lasers at all? Get an RS?

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48 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Wess?? Have you changed teams?? The only difference between an LP Laser and a “ILCA” is a sticker. 

Old Wess might ask, “Who gets the money from that sticker and how is that money spent  to help my local sailing fleet?”

 

Gouv -

I really haven't switched team.  True I am not and never will be Team Kirby.  Sick of his money for nothing keep his grandkids gandkids on the gravy train BS. He is a minus 10 on my list. I put PSA right along side him for kicking off all this BS.  Also true I have never been team LPE.  For gosh sakes I can understand the changing economics on selling boats and diminished demand in the US and even how the class pushing for supplied boats potentially screwed them - so I have some sympathy given they do give me something (a boat) for my money - but I can't ignore that they make a crap ton of big $s on sails and they didn't give enough of a sh*t about their customers to run their business in such a way that they could keep those on shelves to fill demand.  On my list LPE is a minus 1 to a plus 1 depending on the day. 

So who do I support?

On the plus side I am plus 10 on the side of club level sailors.  Young and old who do this because they like sailing and like racing and like simple affordable boats that were or are or who the F knows called Lasers and don't deserve to be screwed by a bunch of robber barons.  And I have always been on the side of ILCA.  Bunch of volunteers that are not getting rich on this and have little vested interests other than getting people racing boats. I know you ain't a fan and didn't agree with my support of them last time around but I feel they did the only thing they could do at the time to keep the supply of boats flowing.  So they were plus 10 on my list back then.  On this occasion I wonder about ILCA actions.  Seems like they remain more aligned with high level Olympic level sailors and am GUESSING this action is pre-agreed with WS as a way to keep the boat in the Olympics but other than those sailors, I think it hurts the rest from club level to Masters level sailors going to ILCA events.  So I will give them the benefit of doubt and thus a plus 5 in my book for now.  If they miscalculated and don't have WS lined up with them and lose the Olympics I think this move is going to be horrible for all those left sailing the boat and in the class.  So I hope there is a method and back door agreement with WS to support their madness.

If LPE offered club Lasers at a discount similar to generic sails and parts, I would be all for it and think/hope it would get traction in the US and EU club level sailing scenes the same way generic sails did.  Could even improve on the build materials and techniques to make a boat that performed the same as the old one but lasted longer and afforded the builder a better margin such that they were able to better support customers and the game.  But the current club Laser at a 20% discount I bet will be a flop.  Even if I COULD use it at the club level like generic sails and parts, I am not saving so much money that the cost of not being able to do any ILCA events makes sense.  And no, I don't see LPE supporting a class that does the kind of events that ILCA does.

Finally Gouv you ask can ILCA do this?  How can they do all this without a vote?  Lets assume for a moment that technically they shouldn't... that its contrary to the bylaws or whatever.  I would ask the next question?  So what?  Who is going to do something about it and who has standing to do it?

My bottom line is this.  I care about club level sailors who want to have fun racing a Laser like boat affordably.  And I don't see ANYONE going out of their way help that group.  In terms of LPE, if they don't sue (and they may not really have any solid grounds to sue anyone on), and they can't offer up an attractive alternative in terms of a Laser boat price and class to sail in... then I bet they are going to fail.  Good bye and good riddance to them.

Anyway, not arguing with you man.  I think we both like and want the same thing... support for affordable club level sailing.  I guess we maybe see different paths or supporters/blockers to that among the players out there.

Peace!

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

So if a club bought a fleet of, say, 10 Club Lasers, they would save $17,000 that they could spend on promotion, coaching, awards, beer, etc. etc.

Sounds like a good deal if your members are not the sort to go trekking off to ILCA-sanctioned regattas every weekend. In fact, as they would apparently not be welcome at such regattas, they would stay at home and sail at the club every weekend, to the benefit of the rest of the fleet.

 

I don't see a laser as a "club boat".  They are too physical and can humble the untrained and inexperienced in anything over 12 knots pretty quickly.  

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Huh? Been to a lot of places all over the world on business travel and it’s hard to think of times when I went to a club and they didn’t have a fleet of Lasers nearby. 

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More talk from LPE...

 
 
 
 

PSA-owned Global Sailing aim is to create Laser Monopoly and Kill Competition
ILCA has issued a document that “requires that each builder and sublicensed builder must also have a current license agreement with Designer,” and adds that “the Laser Construction Manual Agreement (LCMA) to include Global Sailing as a party in place of Bruce Kirby.”
Global Sailing and Performance Sailcraft Australia (PSA) have common ownership, hence PSA, which was quoted in ILCA’s 25 April 2019 announcement, that it was “gearing up to maximize production of the newly-branded ILCA Dinghy”, maintains that it also controls the design rights of the Laser. If this is not the definition of monopoly then what is? Indeed, giving licenses to other entities where the license governs the terms of engagement does not withstand FRAND or monopoly tests either.
ILCA’s management has obviously acceded to this non-competitive strategy and the illegal initiative to change ILCA’s name. Coupled with the ILCA/PSA/PSJ secret alliance to replace the Radial and 4.7 Laser boats with C series rigs, it becomes clear why ILCA refused to meet with LaserPerformance to negotiate a new license agreement in its territories (the world except Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Korea).
It is doubtful that Global Sailing even owns any rights. In June 2008 Bruce Kirby sold his “expired” design rights to Global Sailing. In 2009 Global Sailing informed LaserPerformance that it was the owner of the rights to the Builders Agreements, but subsequently World Sailing informed Global Sailing that the sale was invalid because it did not receive WS approval. Indeed, in litigation in the USA initiated by Bruce Kirby and Global Sailing, they represented to the US courts that Global Sailing had no such ownership interest.
This is the context in which LaserPerformance is proposing:
A. ILCA move back to Europe where the majority of Laser sailors live and sail.
B. ILCA appoint a professional executive team to run the class operations paid for by increased plaque fees charged to the builders.

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The fact that I can actually sail, and race,  a Laser in over 12 knots says it IS a club boat.

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Quote

when I went to a club and they didn’t have a fleet of Lasers nearby

once again.... the definition of Club!

RobbieB is probably referring to a club of sailors.... ie members who show up once in a while to race on club provided boats...     Test his theory..... do you know of any club that has a fleet of lasers that are used by adult members of the club??? are they racing them?    IME.... clubs might have a beater laser as a "Club boat....that can be used in races against privately owned lasers...    clearly not the same thing.  

Your definition of a club is the traditional one of LASER sailors who are members of the sailing club... and own their own boats.

I am curious if JimC's notion of sailors giving up ownership and moving to  club dinghy racing moving towards using club provided boats  gaining any traction in the world.   I know in NYC they have a Manhattan/Wall Street  sailing club that races club owned J22's.  (maybe 24s)...  How about any kind of one or two person boats (dinghies or cats).  Does LPE think the new cheaper Laser is the single handed boat to promote for this role?   (sort of like the multihull world where Hobie Waves  in a club  racing fleet would be far better then a fleet of  Dart 18s or Hobie 14s)

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55 minutes ago, Tcatman said:

do you know of any club that has a fleet of lasers that are used by adult members of the club??? are they racing them?  

Mine (Island Barn nr Hampton Court) for one. Queen Mary down the road nr Ashford for two, Datchet near Heathrow for three, Littleton nr Shepperton for four. That's probably the 4 largest clubs close to where I live...

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

More talk from LPE...

 
 
 
 

PSA-owned Global Sailing aim is to create Laser Monopoly and Kill Competition
ILCA has issued a document that “requires that each builder and sublicensed builder must also have a current license agreement with Designer,” and adds that “the Laser Construction Manual Agreement (LCMA) to include Global Sailing as a party in place of Bruce Kirby.”
Global Sailing and Performance Sailcraft Australia (PSA) have common ownership, hence PSA, which was quoted in ILCA’s 25 April 2019 announcement, that it was “gearing up to maximize production of the newly-branded ILCA Dinghy”, maintains that it also controls the design rights of the Laser. If this is not the definition of monopoly then what is? Indeed, giving licenses to other entities where the license governs the terms of engagement does not withstand FRAND or monopoly tests either.
ILCA’s management has obviously acceded to this non-competitive strategy and the illegal initiative to change ILCA’s name. Coupled with the ILCA/PSA/PSJ secret alliance to replace the Radial and 4.7 Laser boats with C series rigs, it becomes clear why ILCA refused to meet with LaserPerformance to negotiate a new license agreement in its territories (the world except Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Korea).
It is doubtful that Global Sailing even owns any rights. In June 2008 Bruce Kirby sold his “expired” design rights to Global Sailing. In 2009 Global Sailing informed LaserPerformance that it was the owner of the rights to the Builders Agreements, but subsequently World Sailing informed Global Sailing that the sale was invalid because it did not receive WS approval. Indeed, in litigation in the USA initiated by Bruce Kirby and Global Sailing, they represented to the US courts that Global Sailing had no such ownership interest.
This is the context in which LaserPerformance is proposing:
A. ILCA move back to Europe where the majority of Laser sailors live and sail.
B. ILCA appoint a professional executive team to run the class operations paid for by increased plaque fees charged to the builders.

I think I'll go and sail my RS Aero.

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12 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I think I'll go and sail my RS Aero.

More dedicated to Kirby and PSA (with whom I will never spend a dime) but you know you sing this song Tiller every time you cheat on your first love LASER!!  :P

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, JimC said:

Mine (Island Barn nr Hampton Court) for one. Queen Mary down the road nr Ashford for two, Datchet near Heathrow for three, Littleton nr Shepperton for four. That's probably the 4 largest clubs close to where I live...

 

oh boy....this sounds like a quiet revolution in the costs and access to sailboat racing..    This is going to complicate this ILCA class upheaval.   Steve Clarke's post is looking quite prescient.

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12 minutes ago, Wess said:

More dedicated to Kirby and PSA (with whom I will never spend a dime) but you know you sing this song Tiller every time you cheat on your first love LASER!!  :P


Well it's all right, riding around in the breeze
Well it's all right, if you live the life you please
Well it's all right, doing the best you can
Well it's all right, as long as you lend a hand

 

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Well played @tillerman.  But I will stick to my old school music while you fool around with that new age rock and roll.  And TURN IT DOWN!!!

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2 hours ago, Tcatman said:

oh boy....this sounds like a quiet revolution in the costs and access to sailboat racing..    This is going to complicate this ILCA class upheaval.   Steve Clarke's post is looking quite prescient.

Happening in other adult singlehanded classes too... The community owned fleet of 30 RS Aeros at the sailing center for the Viridian planned community in Dallas Fort Worth, Texas.

Viridian 30 Aeros.jpg

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So.... the class building conversation changes from.... Wow .... Lasers..... best sailing game going....   You should choose Laser over Areo ....  and purchase one, get a space at the club... get some insurance ... OH and Come on down Tuesday night for TESOD racing. ...... (the international class association does XXX for you for 50 bucks) .

To... Hey... reserve your spot and come down to the club Wed evening for  club  racing and drinks later......

Game changer for the 21st century....  near population centers that can generate critical mass of racers.

I don't think the 21st century sailor gives a fig about the button on the boat or the sail.... much less the benefits of single manufacture one design persevering value  for the owner,

 

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On 3/29/2019 at 10:35 AM, sosoomii said:

I lost track of the last round, but is the construction manual still under copyright and who owns it? 

I can see that ILCA can decide on who it permits to be a member (although even that is muddied as an Olympic class), but struggle to see how it can prevent LPE building Lasers. 

I know that LPE are not well regarded, but the principle that a company can design, build, market and supply a boat only for the owners club to somehow deny that company the right to do that seems weak. 

Great question, one that seemed to be ignored.

PSA answered it relation to the Laser: Kirby. I believe with PSJ, the answer will be the same. I see nothing that has changed that.

Maybe it was different prior to Usher's presidency, however I've seen nothing recent that would indicate the ILCA wanting to take over the copyright. I'd say that the logical pathway forward would be to copy PSA's contractual setup when appointing new builders. It seems to have worked so far.

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6 hours ago, Wess said:

I really haven't switched team.  True I am not and never will be Team Kirby.  Sick of his money for nothing keep his grandkids gandkids on the gravy train BS. He is a minus 10 on my list. I put PSA right along side him for kicking off all this BS.  Also true I have never been team LPE.  For gosh sakes I can understand the changing economics on selling boats and diminished demand in the US and even how the class pushing for supplied boats potentially screwed them - so I have some sympathy given they do give me something (a boat) for my money - but I can't ignore that they make a crap ton of big $s on sails and they didn't give enough of a sh*t about their customers to run their business in such a way that they could keep those on shelves to fill demand.  On my list LPE is a minus 1 to a plus 1 depending on the day. 

Thank you Wess for your best efforts to make a positive contribution to this topic, one that is important to anyone who has derived pleasure from sailing Kirby's funky little boat.

Actually, you may blame both Bruce Kirby, and Ian Bruce plus a small group of enthusiasts who made it all happen. 

Just wondering Wess, if your income was stopped, would you complain? If you owned copyright to something, and then it was taken away, would you complain?

I would.

Not that much is achieved by apportioning blame.

It is a matter of historical record of how this situation occurred. To apportion blame on Kirby in the way you have done promotes you as someone who does not grasp facts very well. Was that your intention? I do commend you on your consistency regarding this.

The ILCA have redefined how the game will be played moving forward - kudos to the current ILCA executive. The recent moves are fantastic for the sport. The new ILCA builders for North America and UK have an opportunity serve the most popular one design single manufacturer class in history. PS: I don't think the new builders in EU or NA will be PSA.

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11 hours ago, JimC said:

Except that LPE builds about a dozen different classes, many of which aren't particularly racing craft and don't have much in the way of class associations,  and about half of which are marketed under the Laser brand with a Laser xxx name.

True, but I can't imagine the Laser xxx markets are a shadow of the Euro+NA Laser market.

For sure there are still many legal and political plays left to be made, but I think ICLAs long game goals must include eventually regaining use of the Laser name, by some means. Possibly by starving LP (or their backers) out until they're willing to negotiate a reasonable deal on the name.

And the Laser club edition is as much about running out materials as it is about a viable long-term business model. What else would you do with stockpiles of outdated boat building materials other than build the one model of boat that still uses them?

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23 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

How much utter ignorance can one comment contain?? The quoted paragraph might win most contests. 

Golly gee! Who actually uses fiberglass mat, resin, gelcoat, coring foam, or aluminum tubing anymore?? 

Certainly a large percentage of Lasers are sold to racing enthusiasts, but lots of Lasers are simply sold as pretty little Sailboats.  

There are plenty of people who will never even consider whether a couple dudes in the  USA won’t count their finishes if the toy they are about to purchase is someday used to attend a regatta run by one of them. 

 

Sorry but onegoat has hit the nail on the head. 

Even your response backs up his statement (Golly gee! Who actually uses fiberglass mat, resin, gelcoat, coring foam, or aluminum tubing anymore?? )

what do LP do with their stocks of materials that can’t be used for anything else but use it up on building Club lasers or send it to landfill 

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9 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Nobody seems interested in discussing what I consider to be THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION

What official pathway is described in the International Laser Class Association Constitution and Class ruies which allows the officers to dump the Laser name, the builder description, and set up the recently announced new ILCA? 

******

also:

 What does the L in ILCA  stand for?

Why isn’t the Association now called IILCACA?

Or IICA?

 

Who said the name has been "dumped"?  What international laws prohibit an organisation with a certain name from trading and operating under a different name? Where I'm from, there are many companies, businesses and people that trade under a name than the one of the individual or the company itself. 

No one has "set up the new ILCA". The International Laser Class Association just no longer uses the same name publicly. It may well be able to still use the same name "privately", by leaving it in the Constitution, because that would probably be seen as not breaching trademark law. There is no issue with the acronym ILCA - there is no law that says that an acronym has to stand for anything. The change of the symbol may be problematic, but I would not be at all surprised if an organisation was allowed to breach its constitution for the good of the organisation in the event of a legal dispute.  Most laws actually aren't that dumb.

I don't think you've told us what you want the class to have done once LPE refused inspection for a considerable period; I think I was told that it has not allowed inspection for a year or two. Would you be happy if LPE kept out churning Lasers that may not have been built according to the manual?  Would you be sitting on SA supporting the class if it tried to go through the long process of dropping LPE trademarks, while all the time un-inspected Lasers of dubious legality were running out of the factory and into the fleets?  Would you prefer that the class just sat by on its hands while the basic one design idea was threatened?

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

Do we need a sarcasm font for the ignorant?? Wasn’t “golly gee” enough??  Virtually EVERYTHING built of FRP has mat, resin, and gelcoat. 

Foam cores are not particularly common but even a small repair shop like mine blows through a 500 square foot box or two of the right thickness for Lasers every year.

we already know LP doesn’t stock much of anything ahead because THEY NEVER HAVE SPARE PARTS IN STOCK!!!

summary: LP is not building hundreds of Lasers to use up its over stock 

Are you trying to start another slanging war? I take extreme exception to being called ignorant!

as a chartered engineer with 45years experience in the oil & gas contracting industry and having sailed Dinghies for more than 60 years I would say I was reasonably qualified for my take on your statement 

as a born and bred Yorkshireman I am not fluent in the Merican language, so maybe you do need a sarcasm font

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4 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

@Curious

 Apparently you have not been reading my posts . 

 The problem is not a legal matter it is a class association matter.

 The association has specific rules that describe its operation .  The class has specific rules that describe who may play and in what sort of toys . 

 The class has specific methods for changing  it’s own constitution .

 The specific methods by which the officers or members are allowed to change the constitution have not been accomplished . 

  I can agree 100% with what those in charge want to do while still making it quite clear that the methods  currently being used to accomplish those goals are not proper . 

I keep bringing this up because it would be much better, in my view,  if we would accomplish the changes by operating within the rules described by our own association.

 If the class association is asked vote and does vote to change the name of the laser class association to the peanut butter and jelly fart Blossom Association that wouid be fine with me.  The change would have been accomplished within the rules the association has defined for changing its constitution 

 Practicality says, if nobody gives a rats patootie,  they can change the game and the association any way  they damn well please . 

To be perfectly honest, I don’t care.

I am, however, a little bit surprised that no one else cares either

I guess we waste a lot of money every year sending out books with a copy of the constitution and class rules. The real rules are whatever the hell anybody feels like doing

To that end, if LP wants to build boats And sell them to us and we all want to go race them in ILCA’s contests, nobody gives a rats ass.  Our rules don’t matter. We may simply  choose the rules we care to follow blow off the rest and enjoy ourselves. 

The fact is absolutely zero of the rules thrown upon us by the ILCA will in any way shape or form change how 99% of us play the Laser game.

 Most of us just put together our old boats and go out and play with our local Fleet and then go have a beer afterwards . If we hit buoys  we do 360s if we could each other we do two turns. Nobody cares anymore whether you’re using a laser sail, an intensity knock off, a newfangled Radial Cut, a sunfish sail, or a sail you pulled off of your fireball and hung on your mast. We are just out there to play and have a beer after. 

 

Seriousiy,  why the hell do we even have a Class Association?? 

Despite previous posts, I wholeheartedly agree with your comments about ILCA not following our constitution. This is also in line with the basis of The EurILCA objections.

 

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27 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

@Curious

 Apparently you have not been reading my posts . 

 The problem is not a legal matter it is a class association matter.

 The association has specific rules that describe its operation .  The class has specific rules that describe who may play and in what sort of toys . 

 The class has specific methods for changing  it’s own constitution .

 The specific methods by which the officers or members are allowed to change the constitution have not been accomplished . 

  I can agree 100% with what those in charge want to do while still making it quite clear that the methods  currently being used to accomplish those goals are not proper . 

I keep bringing this up because it would be much better, in my view,  if we would accomplish the changes by operating within the rules described by our own association.

 If the class association is asked vote and does vote to change the name of the laser class association to the peanut butter and jelly fart Blossom Association that wouid be fine with me.  The change would have been accomplished within the rules the association has defined for changing its constitution 

 Practicality says, if nobody gives a rats patootie,  they can change the game and the association any way  they damn well please . 

To be perfectly honest, I don’t care.

I am, however, a little bit surprised that no one else cares either

I guess we waste a lot of money every year sending out books with a copy of the constitution and class rules. The real rules are whatever the hell anybody feels like doing

To that end, if LP wants to build boats And sell them to us and we all want to go race them in ILCA’s contests, nobody gives a rats ass.  Our rules don’t matter. We may simply  choose the rules we care to follow blow off the rest and enjoy ourselves. 

The fact is absolutely zero of the rules thrown upon us by the ILCA will in any way shape or form change how 99% of us play the Laser game.

 Most of us just put together our old boats and go out and play with our local Fleet and then go have a beer afterwards . If we hit buoys  we do 360s if we could each other we do two turns. Nobody cares anymore whether you’re using a laser sail, an intensity knock off, a newfangled Radial Cut, a sunfish sail, or a sail you pulled off of your fireball and hung on your mast. We are just out there to play and have a beer after. 

 

Seriousiy,  why the hell do we even have a Class Association?? 

Come August when the association isn't allowed to use the Laser name or logo anymore due to not wanting to agree to the amended renewal terms, what would the association be called?  Do they need a vote to stop using the Laser name/starburst when they're no longer legally licensed to do so?

Or should there have been a vote by members on the renewal of the trademark licensing agreement with the details of the renewal made public?

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37 minutes ago, JMP said:

Come August when the association isn't allowed to use the Laser name or logo anymore due to not wanting to agree to the amended renewal terms, what would the association be called?  Do they need a vote to stop using the Laser name/starburst when they're no longer legally licensed to do so?

Or should there have been a vote by members on the renewal of the trademark licensing agreement with the details of the renewal made public?

Excerpts from the ILCA Constitution:

NAME

1. The name of the association shall be the INTERNATIONAL LASER CLASS ASSOCIATION, with head office at PO Box 49250, Austin, Texas 78765, USA.

INSIGNIA

2. The emblem of the Class shall be the recognised Laser symbol, and the insignia of the officers shall be those prescribed by By-Law.

AMENDMENTS

17. Amendments to this Constitution shall be approved by each of: (a) the World Council (b) the Advisory Council (c) at least two thirds of the membership replying in writing to the International Office of the Class in response to a postal ballot published by the International Office. Only those postal votes returned to the International Office within 6 months from the date of publication of the proposed change shall be valid.

It appears that a vote needs to take place to change the name of the Association and the symbol. However, simply not using them - as required legally - would not require a vote. There is nothing in there about changing the name of the boat. 

The other area where voting is required is to amend Bylaw 1- Rules :

31. AMENDMENTS

Amendments to these Rules shall be approved by each of: (a) the World Council, (b) the Advisory Council, (c) at least two-thirds of the membership casting a vote in response to a ballot published by the International Office of the Class. Only those votes submitted within one month from the date of publication of the rule change ballot shall be valid, and (d) World Sailing

Interesting to note that in Bylaw 1, one finds the following:

DEFINITION OF BUILDER

A Builder is a manufacturer that has the rights to use a Laser trademark, is manufacturing the hull, equipment, fittings, spars, sails and battens in strict adherence to the Construction Manual, and has been approved as a Laser Builder by each of World Sailing and the International Laser Class Association.

This being the case, it would appear that if both World Sailing and ILCA have decided to no longer approve LCE, then so be it - they are no longer a Builder. No vote of any kind required. Now, there may be something in the Builder's Agreement that could read differently...

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2 hours ago, JMP said:

Come August when the association isn't allowed to use the Laser name or logo anymore due to not wanting to agree to the amended renewal terms, what would the association be called?  Do they need a vote to stop using the Laser name/starburst when they're no longer legally licensed to do so?

Or should there have been a vote by members on the renewal of the trademark licensing agreement with the details of the renewal made public?

The way it looks, they are replacing all references to laser with "ILCA"  problem solved? 

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1 hour ago, Dazz said:

The way it looks, they are replacing all references to laser with "ILCA"  problem solved? 

problem solved? .... ..... .... after a round of voting I suspect.

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I have written to ILCA asking for clarification of why there was no membership vote for the change of name and emblem (as it looks to me like these are constitutional changes). Waiting to hear back.   

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5 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

@Curious

 Apparently you have not been reading my posts . 

 The problem is not a legal matter it is a class association matter.

 The association has specific rules that describe its operation .  The class has specific rules that describe who may play and in what sort of toys . 

 The class has specific methods for changing  it’s own constitution .

 The specific methods by which the officers or members are allowed to change the constitution have not been accomplished . 

  I can agree 100% with what those in charge want to do while still making it quite clear that the methods  currently being used to accomplish those goals are not proper . 

I keep bringing this up because it would be much better, in my view,  if we would accomplish the changes by operating within the rules described by our own association.

 If the class association is asked vote and does vote to change the name of the laser class association to the peanut butter and jelly fart Blossom Association that wouid be fine with me.  The change would have been accomplished within the rules the association has defined for changing its constitution 

 Practicality says, if nobody gives a rats patootie,  they can change the game and the association any way  they damn well please . 

To be perfectly honest, I don’t care.

I am, however, a little bit surprised that no one else cares either

I guess we waste a lot of money every year sending out books with a copy of the constitution and class rules. The real rules are whatever the hell anybody feels like doing

To that end, if LP wants to build boats And sell them to us and we all want to go race them in ILCA’s contests, nobody gives a rats ass.  Our rules don’t matter. We may simply  choose the rules we care to follow blow off the rest and enjoy ourselves. 

The fact is absolutely zero of the rules thrown upon us by the ILCA will in any way shape or form change how 99% of us play the Laser game.

 Most of us just put together our old boats and go out and play with our local Fleet and then go have a beer afterwards . If we hit buoys  we do 360s if we could each other we do two turns. Nobody cares anymore whether you’re using a laser sail, an intensity knock off, a newfangled Radial Cut, a sunfish sail, or a sail you pulled off of your fireball and hung on your mast. We are just out there to play and have a beer after. 

 

Seriousiy,  why the hell do we even have a Class Association?? 

I've read all your posts. 

You say "I keep bringing this up because it would be much better, in my view,  if we would accomplish the changes by operating within the rules described by our own association." Fair enough - let's play it your way.

That would mean another 6+ months of LPE continuing to churn out boats that may not be Lasers as we knew them, before a vote can be finished. The vote to dump LPE may also fail because of the European domination of the numbers. That means for the next 5, 10, 20 or 50 years LPE could be churning out boats that may not be Lasers, and be doing so while flouting a contract.

You are therefore apparently OK with the class having a builder that, when asked to honour the contract it has with the class or WS, says "get fucked". I'm not. You are also apparently OK with the prospect that in 20 years time we could have 12,000 Lasers out there with different layups, different materials, different core materials, different whatever. I'm not.

Not a single thing I said indicated that the Constitution doesn't matter. It does. But when one party breaks the rules, as LPE admits it has done, it is reasonable to take the actions that the class can legally take.

We have a class association so we can race Lasers. If LPE's actions were not addressed, we may not have been sailing Lasers. Instead we could have been sailing Lasers against boats that are not Lasers as described in the rules, but something faster. The class association is there to stop precisely that.
 

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3 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

 

Those of us who use the Laser word to organize and promote the Laser sailing game are the only reason the Laser name has any real value. Without the racing game the Laser is just another little plastic sailing  toy. 

LP should be THRILLED about our use of their logo and name. The fact LP seems to think they are doing us a favor to let us use their logo and name demonstrates there is a fundamental misunderstanding or problem that needs to be solved. 

10000% correct.

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1 hour ago, Curious said:

10000% correct.

Not using the Laser trademark solves this problem.

The ILCA Exec committee would have loved to have continued using the Laser trademark. It would seem that the cost was too high.

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11 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

And the Laser club edition is as much about running out materials as it is about a viable long-term business model. What else would you do with stockpiles of outdated boat building materials other than build the one model of boat that still uses them?

How much utter ignorance can one comment contain?? The quoted paragraph might win most contests. 

Golly gee! Who actually uses fiberglass mat, resin, gelcoat, coring foam, or aluminum tubing anymore?? 

Certainly a large percentage of Lasers are sold to racing enthusiasts, but lots of Lasers are simply sold as pretty little Sailboats.  

 

 

So hostile for so little reason. :rolleyes:

So my comment about outdated materials was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

Regardless, they have stocks of materials and a production line set up for building Lasers.

Their other product lines are trivial compared to their Laser line. They don't want to be left holding whatever stocks of materials they have.

So, they're continuing to build Lasers to run inventory down to a manageable level for a non-ICLA future.

Yours in utter ignorance etc.,

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31 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

@Curious Your rant about the possibility of different Lasers is based upon your assumption LP is or may be planning to build non- builder manual Lasers. LP and the ILCA have been like nvolved in a pissing match and LP’s supply on North America has been pathetic but there is no indication the LP boats are not Lasers. 

In fact, LP has continued to brag that its product is built by the book and LP has invited WS to inspect its building process. 

It certainly seems a whole lot less “nuclear option” to ask WS to send a representative. 

In fact some non -ILCA affiliated person might just take that opportunity to complain to LP about the absurdity of conducting an absurd  fight with the customers living in the Americas. 

“I am only here because you children can’t play nicely.”

instead, the ILCA pointed its fingers at one tiny LP Rule infraction and used that as an excuse to abandon its Constitution and Class rules. 

Sorry mr anonymous but curious, I don’t buy your entire set of excuses. 

I ESPECIALLY don’t buy the excuse, “The Europeans May vote against our plan.” WHAAAT??? Think about that one. 

If ILCA wants to terminate a relationship for failure to abide by the rules, ILCA MUST DO SO WITHIN THE RULES!!!! 

Last: If this mess ends up in a court, do you suppose a judge who is asked to look over our rules is going to slap down LP for our be infringement while endorsing the absolute abandonment of its own rules  by the ILCA ?? 

But Gouv, at the end of the day all that matters is if somebody who has proper standing is going to do anything about it.  And it appears the answer to that is no.  Right now its wait and see.

Those of us here might have an intellectual curiosity about the mess but come on... this is about sport and leasure... its fun... its not life and death.  If ILCA's actions allows sailors to still access boats, parts, and sails at the same prices and level of support that existed prior nobody is going to care.  LPE who?  Bylaws what?  Sailors just want to sail.   Nobody is going to fight or sue till it matters. For example, I think it can be argued that the club level use of generic sails and parts is inconsistent with various rules but not only does nobody do anything about it... its broadly supported as it benefits the sport and sailing.  What rules?

If through ILCA's actions we keep the Olympic slot, there are still supplied boats at major events, and people can still get boats, sails and parts at the same prices they did before nobody is going to care or do anything.  In fact they - even EU sailors - will be happy and supportive of ILCA actions.

Now on the other hand, lose the Olympic slot, see the level supplied boats dry up at major events, or have increased supply problems and/or price increases and then folks are going to take action.

The stuff we type here can be interesting or funny but it don't matter in real life!

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3 hours ago, Curious said:

...The vote to dump LPE may also fail because of the European domination of the numbers. 

 

28 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

If ILCA wants to terminate a relationship for failure to abide by the rules, ILCA MUST DO SO WITHIN THE RULES!!!! 

No vote is required. Provided World Sailing are onside with leaving LPE behind, this action is within the Constitution. What is key here is that World Sailing must be keenly aware of LPE's assholery or they would not have agreed to their dismissal as a builder. So, one would then surmise that all this will not have an impact on the Olympic selection. World Sailing cannot on one hand support the change, and then on the other hand penalize ILCA. 

DEFINITION OF BUILDER

A Builder is a manufacturer that has the rights to use a Laser trademark, is manufacturing the hull, equipment, fittings, spars, sails and battens in strict adherence to the Construction Manual, and has been approved as a Laser Builder by each of World Sailing and the International Laser Class Association.

In your response to me original text on this, Gouv, "LP has been un-buildered". There is no requirement for a vote. Nor is there a requirement for voting on any new builder. However, the clause should be changed to remove the words "has the rights to use a Laser trademark". As a change to the Constitution, his change would require a vote. Also, in the Constitution, a vote is supposed to take place to change the name of the association and the symbol. 

 

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13 minutes ago, bill4 said:

 

No vote is required. Provided World Sailing are onside with leaving LPE behind, this action is within the Constitution. What is key here is that World Sailing must be keenly aware of LPE's assholery or they would not have agreed to their dismissal as a builder. So, one would then surmise that all this will not have an impact on the Olympic selection. World Sailing cannot on one hand support the change, and then on the other hand penalize ILCA. 

DEFINITION OF BUILDER

A Builder is a manufacturer that has the rights to use a Laser trademark, is manufacturing the hull, equipment, fittings, spars, sails and battens in strict adherence to the Construction Manual, and has been approved as a Laser Builder by each of World Sailing and the International Laser Class Association.

In your response to me original text on this, Gouv, "LP has been un-buildered". There is no requirement for a vote. Nor is there a requirement for voting on any new builder. However, the clause should be changed to remove the words "has the rights to use a Laser trademark". As a change to the Constitution, his change would require a vote. Also, in the Constitution, a vote is supposed to take place to change the name of the association and the symbol. 

 

Absolutely agree with you re dumping the builder. Its why I think that WS and ILCA are holding hands in this and that it will not impact the Olympic selection.  And if nothing changes significantly for the sailors (price, supply, event boats) nobody is going to care about the rest.  All that remains to be seen is if LPE makes in-roads with the discounted club Laser at the grass roots level like generic sails/parts have. At a 20% discount I doubt they do, but even if they do, and even if they start a separate class that gains traction even for traveling Master sailors (ie wanting event boats), ILCA will continue to exists to support the Olympic class.

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

ILCA pointed its fingers at one tiny LP Rule infraction and used that as an excuse to abandon its Constitution and Class rules. 

 

Failure to honor licensor inspection clauses or actual inspection are very common causes of disputes and repudiations in licensed building contracts.  Calling a material clause 'a tiny rule infraction' shows a profound lack of understanding of business law.  Read up on 'laches'.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Remember as you read my comments “I am all for freeing our game from the Laser trademark.” 

 

Don’t pull things out of context and ignore the entire point of my post. 

The ILCA officers are absolutely and grossly not operating according to their own rules. 

My use of “one tiny” in the  context of my post was quite obviously hyperbole to emphasize the foolishness of claiming a rule was broken and then abandoning the rules as an attempted Solution. 

 

Remember as you read my comments “I am all for freeing our game from the Laser trademark.” 

you clearly don't understand what hyperbole means.  it doesn't mean 'false' or 'wrong'. 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Gouvernail said:

Remember as you read my comments “I am all for freeing our game from the Laser trademark.” 

 

Now you are being an asshole.

Why are you ignoring the main point of my post and focusing attention on my choice of verbiage?

The officers are acting outside their authority. I am suggesting they seek pretty much exactly  same final result but do so BY THE BOOK!!!

note to Clean: Although the BOOK is often used in other discussions to refer to a certain religious document,  ”by the book” as used in my post  does not  mean “while near a Bible.”

and Yes!! I can play asshole just as well as Clean can. Let’s stop. 

Remember as you read my comments “I am all for freeing our game from the Laser trademark.” 

 

How are the officers acting outside their authority? The Constitution says they and World Sailing get to approve the builders. There is no criteria for choice of Builder in the Constitution. If one were to disagree with what has been done, there is this:

APPEALS 14. Any dispute arising in relation to fleets, districts, regions, eligibility to race, the interpreting of this Constitution, the By-Laws or similar matter, other than any dispute as to the interpretation of the Rules or any protest within the jurisdiction of the applicable racing rules, may be made to the World Council whose decision shall be final and binding.

Now, since the World Council get to make the call, one would likely be pissing in the wind.

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Yes, they get to approve the builders, no quibble there.  But they don’t get to change the class insignia - see para 2 of the constitution:

INSIGNIA

 2. The emblem of the Class shall be the recognised Laser symbol, and the insignia of the officers shall be those prescribed by By-Law.

A change to this is surely a change of constitution, which requires two thirds of members to vote for it.  I really don’t understand the counter argument to this, but would love to be persuaded otherwise. 

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3 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Yes, they get to approve the builders, no quibble there.  But they don’t get to change the class insignia - see para 2 of the constitution:

INSIGNIA

 2. The emblem of the Class shall be the recognised Laser symbol, and the insignia of the officers shall be those prescribed by By-Law.

A change to this is surely a change of constitution, which requires two thirds of members to vote for it.  I really don’t understand the counter argument to this, but would love to be persuaded otherwise. 

Yup - Insignia and Name of the Association per #766 above.

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8 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Remember as you read my comments “I am all for freeing our game from the Laser trademark.” 

Every day each of us encounters some frustration that could be simply simply solved by a simple vigilante  action. 

Even when EVERYBODY agrees the vigilante solution wouid be perfect, the ruies of our society force us to solve our frustrations by the rules.

In some cases, even though EVERYONE agrees the vigilante solution is perfect, those who recognize the importance of  ruies  will choose operating according to the rules over the seductive simplicity of vigilantism. 

In a case where there is contention and likely objection  to a planned solution, foolish lack of attention to proper process often allows those who object to the solution to have that solution undone. 

There isn’t even a ballot for removing the trademark requirements from the builder description and the officers are moving forward as though the voting has been completed. 

I fear this lack of attention to our own rules will be used to cause our game grief. 

Remember as you read my comments “I am all for freeing our game from the Laser trademark.” 

 

 

 

When the Constitution was written, no one could have seen this shit storm as a possibility. So I don't think there was a lack of attention, just a lack of clairvoyance...

The Constitution definitely needs a workover, and I am sure ILCA will bei developing a number of proposed amendments. Firstly, IMHO, they need to change the requirement for a 6 month postal ballot. This is more old-fashioned and inefficient than the three part vang. Russian interference notwithstanding, an electronic balloting system could be easily set up. An email to all members with a 30 day voting process would be a big help.

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56 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

 

Why are you ignoring the main point of my post and focusing attention on my choice of verbiage?

The officers are acting outside their authority. I am suggesting they seek pretty much exactly  same final result but do so BY THE BOOK!!!

note to Clean: Although the BOOK is often used in other discussions to refer to a certain religious document,  ”by the book” as used in my post  does not  mean “while near a Bible.”

and Yes!! I can play asshole just as well as Clean can. Let’s stop. 

Remember as you read my comments “I am all for freeing our game from the Laser trademark.” 

 

I generally have trouble finding the main point in your arguments.  Regardless, I am focusing on your verbiage because words are how people communicate.  It seems silly for you to write words down in service of your argument and then complain that people focus on those words.

I am all for people following their rules, though I have not sat down and read the entire constitution or whatever governing agreements with world sailing are available for review, and it's been a while since i saw a copy of the LCM, so I am not sure what is or is not required.  

I do know that if international trademark law requires the class to change the name because of the expiration of an agreement, in most places that would trump any conflicting clause in a class constitution.  That's why they always have something in the rules reflecting that they are only 'as required' or 'as permitted' by law.

There is also probably a provision allowing a member or number of members to initiate their own vote or inquiry.  If the members want a different name, they should certainly have the ability to vote one in.

 

 

 

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Forgive me if this question has been asked before in the many pages of the four different threads.

The class builders only make hulls.  Everything else - sails, spars, blades, fittings - comes from suppliers.  These items are made according to class specifications, I'm assuming from the LCM.  However I am unsure of the relations and agreements between the class and these suppliers, and what it means going forward.

For example, consider the Mk II sail.  They are manufactured by North and Hyde and sold to the various builders.  Will the sailmakers now be making sails with the ILCA logo for PSA and PSJ while making the exact same sail with a Laser logo for LPE?  Or are there agreements in place that will prevent North and Hyde from selling the Mk II sail to LPE since they are no longer a class-authorized builder?

 

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27 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

 

In the time you have spent responding to my comments and nit picking about my deliberate representation of the “ inspections excuse” as barely a scintilla of the real big picture, you could have put on your lawyer wig, perused the ILCA constitution and Class rules, and offered the officers some well considered wonderfully helpful advice. 

 

Does it annoy you when the ignorant assume that it only takes a short time to knock together a good sailboat?  That's what it's like when you opine on how quickly one can do good legal analysis.

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Hire  a lawyer with expertise and experience in this sort of conflict, and follow that lawyer’s Advice. 

But bearing in mind that they are class officers who mostly hail from a very litigious country, and they know they are getting into a potentially litigious situation with a notably litigious opponent, how likely do you think it is that they haven't?

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6 hours ago, torrid said:

Forgive me if this question has been asked before in the many pages of the four different threads.

The class builders only make hulls.  Everything else - sails, spars, blades, fittings - comes from suppliers.  These items are made according to class specifications, I'm assuming from the LCM.  However I am unsure of the relations and agreements between the class and these suppliers, and what it means going forward.

For example, consider the Mk II sail.  They are manufactured by North and Hyde and sold to the various builders.  Will the sailmakers now be making sails with the ILCA logo for PSA and PSJ while making the exact same sail with a Laser logo for LPE?  Or are there agreements in place that will prevent North and Hyde from selling the Mk II sail to LPE since they are no longer a class-authorized builder?

Good question. If there are existing agreements, they are likely to favor LPE. (But LPE may be in breach of such agreements because they may not have paid their bills.)

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3 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Hanging my head in shame.... 

i get it. 

My real assumption is “professionally” a lawyer would look at this mess and think, “I would have to spend a lot of that client’s money just to gather sufficient information to start considering how I could help.”

On the other hand, even an ignorant layman like me can say, “Things could get nasty. Make certain you dot all your Is and cross your Ts. You are accusing LP of violating agreements. Make certain you are not violating any of those  agreements. Make certain your officers and board operate within any ruies of the law or your organization. 

Hire  a lawyer with expertise and experience in this sort of conflict, and follow that lawyer’s Advice. 

My understanding based on what they have put out is that ILCA have hired good attorneys.  If they have not, they are screwed.

Don't hang your head in shame, and don't worry about pissing matches.  I respect your opinion and your passion and always have.  I just want to bring enough legal fact to it to make sure the discussion is grounded in reality.  

 

 

 

 

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Gouv;

If (as we both believe) ILCA has obtained legal advice, then the overwhelming likelihood is they did follow the rules (or the rules as their lawyer believes them to be). The "rules" are not just the class Constitution, but also the laws about how such constitutions must be followed and when associations can deviate from them.

I've got no idea about the relevant law in ILCA's jurisdiction. However, it seems from a quick check that in English law, for example, it has been held that there is "no special magic" in an association's Constitution. A provision in a Constitution is just like any other provision in a normal contract. Sometimes they can be breached in order to avoid a greater wrong.  

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14 minutes ago, Curious said:

If (as we both believe) ILCA has obtained legal advice, then the overwhelming likelihood is they did follow the rules (or the rules as their lawyer believes them to be). The "rules" are not just the class Constitution, but also the laws about how such constitutions must be followed and when associations can deviate from them.

I've got no idea about the relevant law in ILCA's jurisdiction. However, it seems from a quick check that in English law, for example, it has been held that there is "no special magic" in an association's Constitution. A provision in a Constitution is just like any other provision in a normal contract. Sometimes they can be breached in order to avoid a greater wrong.  

The context is one where LPE are in breach of multiple contracts.

Yes, the ILCA have had legal advice and have the support of World Sailing for their latest moves.

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21 minutes ago, Gantt said:

The context is one where LPE are in breach of multiple contracts.

Yes, the ILCA have had legal advice and have the support of World Sailing for their latest moves.

Although the ILCA’s address is in Texas, I am not sure where the entity was (is) incorporated. Should LPE sue, it is likely they will bring the suit in that jurisdiction. If structured correctly, the ILCA’s Directors and Officers insurance will defend and indemnify all the directors and officers as well as the entity (ILCA). 

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10 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Although the ILCA’s address is in Texas, I am not sure where the entity was (is) incorporated. Should LPE sue, it is likely they will bring the suit in that jurisdiction. If structured correctly, the ILCA’s Directors and Officers insurance will defend and indemnify all the directors and officers as well as the entity (ILCA). 

You'd imagine they would have a venue clause and a choice of law clause or both

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40 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The ILCA officers authority to conduct the business of the ILCA is given to them by the ILCA. My concerns about their behavior have NOTHING to do with governments or their laws. 

Etc Etc

You will see my comment was regarding an instance where LPE sues ILCA. The Constitution and members will have sweet fuck all to do with this - LPE will sue ILCA claiming damages for their (eg) being wrongfully sacked via breach of contract (simplified). This could be an issue to the members if the courts side with LPE and clean out available insurance as well as any assets of ILCA. Plus the courts could undo everything done by ILCA resulting in several more years of confusion. 

But this is all builders agreement stuff. Nothing to do with the Constitution. 

As you often suggest - rig up and go sailing tomorrow. Count your blessings - it is 30F here and fucking snowing again...

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I overheard a conversation at the bar last night that Kirby and Rastegar are getting together to start a new class association

They have a boat, the name, the build document, what does the ILCA have?

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30 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

I overheard a conversation at the bar last night that Kirby and Rastegar are getting together to

Well, in Dante's inferno the deepest level of hell is indeed frozen over, so I suppose the prerequisites are there...

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

the convolutions of the mess are endless.

all kinds of people with different reasons for their positions

i maintain “Everyone has the same goal.” We all want somebody to build lots of Lasers. 

If all the effort already spent  on grabbing or holding onto control had been spent on, “Come  play with me.” And “Let me help you  own a boat!” There would be oodles of money and all kinds of stuff for control freaks to control. 

There is a whole lot of necessary work that hasn’t been done in years. 

The  notth American supply of toys has  been horrendous. Every discussion with our builder must commence with “what are we going to do to get stocking dealers  near every venue On the continent?

every clsss officer’s  first obligation is to get the game rolling at full tilt. We need to relentlessly invite people out to play, show them how we have a blast, and help them obtain  toys. -

We need to to relentlessly invite them back until They take over doing the inviting.

The class seems to think managing itself is a significant part of its duty. 

Let me be clear: Every second spent managing the Association is wasted time we could have spent sailing and recruiting new sailor playmates.

it is like growing crops, cooking, and washing dishes. It is necessary but the goal is to eat. 

My best contributions as a boat repairman are those that prevent future need for repairs. .

i want to grab LP by the  shoulders and scream in its face 

THE only way to increase the value of your IP is to put more  people in your boats. Focus your efforts in n building the game and those playing the game will buy your toys and increase the value of your IP. 

Making deals  with ILCA has NOTHING  to do with selling boats.

By the same token, the job of the ILCA is simply to help every human being on the planet become addicted to laser racing. 

Everything is all screwed up

 

 

 

 

They don’t have the same goal. 

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9 hours ago, Sailabout said:

I overheard a conversation at the bar last night that Kirby and Rastegar are getting together to start a new class association

They have a boat, the name, the build document, what does the ILCA have?

That got a laugh for sure.  Well done!

 

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