Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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How many hulls per year do the top olympic Laser sailers really need? And how many masts, booms, sails etc? 

What are the total costs for equipment per olympic class and season? 

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3 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

How many hulls per year do the top olympic Laser sailers really need? And how many masts, booms, sails etc? 

I don't know, probably lots. But suffice to say an Olympic campaign is a lot of money in all classes.  The point is all Olympic aspirants are going to be spending a fortune to stay competitive - not just the Laser. 

Meanwhile, back on earth,  the vast, vast, vast percentage of Laser/ILCA sailors have no Olympic aspirations,  and I believe we are all aware of the Laser/ILCA shortcomings going in. I knew exactly what I was getting every time I purchased a Laser and had no misconceptions whatsoever. The first time I laid eyes on a Laser, as I was rigging my Solo, I knew the Laser wasn't oozing quality build. And I was 13.

So for dozens of years now, we have all known Lasers were not the most durable boat on the market. And we have been told for years there are better ways to build them much cheaper. Nothing new in any of this. 

So we have one camp that wishes the boat had never changed, or changed to a much lesser degree, and another camp that wants carbon rigs, mylar sails, and a new construction manual. So what does everybody do? I know - blame ILCA! 

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31 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

How many hulls per year do the top olympic Laser sailers really need? And how many masts, booms, sails etc? 

What are the total costs for equipment per olympic class and season? 

Olympic Laser sailors travel to many venues so they charter most of the time and bring their own sails etc with them. 

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5 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I don't know, probably lots. But suffice to say an Olympic campaign is a lot of money in all classes.  The point is all Olympic aspirants are going to be spending a fortune to stay competitive - not just the Laser. 

Meanwhile, back on earth,  the vast, vast, vast percentage of Laser/ILCA sailors have no Olympic aspirations,  and I believe we are all aware of the Laser/ILCA shortcomings going in. I knew exactly what I was getting every time I purchased a Laser and had no misconceptions whatsoever. The first time I laid eyes on a Laser, as I was rigging my Solo, I knew the Laser wasn't oozing quality build. And I was 13.

So for dozens of years now, we have all known Lasers were not the most durable boat on the market. And we have been told for years there are better ways to build them much cheaper. Nothing new in any of this. 

So we have one camp that wishes the boat had never changed, or changed to a much lesser degree, and another camp that wants carbon rigs, mylar sails, and a new construction manual. So what does everybody do? I know - blame ILCA! 

Heard Nautivela  recently got the molds to start building boats.         

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16 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Olympic Laser sailors travel to many venues so they charter most of the time and bring their own sails etc with them. 

Means a new hull for every major event... Heard a story where two different dealers supplied charter boats. One had brand new ones, the other had boats that had been used for two events before. Sailers who had to use these "old" boats were pissed. Boats that had been on the water for two weeks... Again, nothing new.

Main problem in my view is that different users from grassroots, Kids, Masters and olympic sailers have very different needs. Not easy to solve, no matter what ILCA does, for a big portion of the members it will be wrong.

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9 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

Main problem in my view is that different users from grassroots, Kids, Masters and olympic sailers have very different needs. Not easy to solve, no matter what ILCA does, for a big portion of the members it will be wrong.

Add to that a few lawsuits, a rogue builder, FRAND, IOC, WS and you have the nightmare ILCA is living. Take it away, @Wess

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17 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

Means a new hull for every major event... Heard a story where two different dealers supplied charter boats. One had brand new ones, the other had boats that had been used for two events before. Sailers who had to use these "old" boats were pissed. Boats that had been on the water for two weeks... Again, nothing new.

Main problem in my view is that different users from grassroots, Kids, Masters and olympic sailers have very different needs. Not easy to solve, no matter what ILCA does, for a big portion of the members it will be wrong.

Those that were upset at that event thought they were paying for a new boat. Lesson learned by both sides. 

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37 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Heard Nautivela  recently got the molds to start building boats.         

I don't know much about them. Reputation wise, how would they compare to Ovington?

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5 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Add to that a few lawsuits, a rogue builder, FRAND, IOC, WS and you have the nightmare ILCA is living. 

I think they have done a reasonable job given the circumstances. With what has been going on worldwide this year you can not really count it as part of the timeline for resolving any of the issues. 

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Another solid builder!

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9 hours ago, jgh66 said:

How many hulls per year do the top olympic Laser sailers really need? And how many masts, booms, sails etc? 

What are the total costs for equipment per olympic class and season? 

Coming from someone who has campaigned for the last four years, I'll give you a rough estimate.

Boat - usually 1 per year, depends a bit on which events you want to do. For those of us not from Europe, this usually means having at least 1 boat in Europe, and one at home. Depending on what sort of deal you get (some national teams have sponsorship type arrangements with builders/dealers), you'll look to spend 6000 euros on a boat roughly + 1500 in freight/import taxes sending it to the EU. As an Aussie, you can recoup a lot of that by selling the boat at the end of the season.

Sails - new sail per event + say 2- 3 training sails a year = roughly 10 sails at 500 euros or whatever they go for in EUR. 

Spars - probably 2 - 3 bottom masts per year. Booms and Carbon Top Sections usually only need 1 per season. 

Then factor in the small things we go through somewhat regularly ie ropes, blocks etc = roughly 300 euros.

This is for someone who wants to do it at a competitive level with the top guys, whilst on a budget. A lot of the top guys have 1 boat in Europe, 1 in Japan, and 1 in their home country.

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2 hours ago, greenwhiteblack said:

Coming from someone who has campaigned for the last four years, I'll give you a rough estimate.

Boat - usually 1 per year, depends a bit on which events you want to do. For those of us not from Europe, this usually means having at least 1 boat in Europe, and one at home. Depending on what sort of deal you get (some national teams have sponsorship type arrangements with builders/dealers), you'll look to spend 6000 euros on a boat roughly + 1500 in freight/import taxes sending it to the EU. As an Aussie, you can recoup a lot of that by selling the boat at the end of the season.

Sails - new sail per event + say 2- 3 training sails a year = roughly 10 sails at 500 euros or whatever they go for in EUR. 

Spars - probably 2 - 3 bottom masts per year. Booms and Carbon Top Sections usually only need 1 per season. 

Then factor in the small things we go through somewhat regularly ie ropes, blocks etc = roughly 300 euros.

This is for someone who wants to do it at a competitive level with the top guys, whilst on a budget. A lot of the top guys have 1 boat in Europe, 1 in Japan, and 1 in their home country.

Surprised you didn't mention two boats at home. One to do the serious training hours on, and one for the competitions. I guess you replace before each nats?

Interesting to hear about flicking the composite spars after one season. That was predicted (I think by Julian), so there is an emerging second hand market for the composite spars. Be interested to hear if you are getting more than half price for them. (I imagine you are. Haven't seen any advertised so probably are sold by word of mouth.)

Fairly sure that still makes the Laser the cheapest class to play the Olympic game in.

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Do you only sail 10 regattas? In the old times we did at max 28 including 505 worlds, several eurocups and 470 and 505 nationals.. and we were not really campaigning for the olympics.. 

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The Olympics 

Which of you who is posting in this thread has sailed a Laser in the Olympics? 
How about the Laser Worlds?? 

I raced in the Laser Worlds  37 years  ago and I don’t think I was one of the top ten from my country. The regatta would have been much less fun with only one from each country. (I wouldn’t have been there)

It would have been less of an event as about half of the top twenty sailors wouldn’t even have been there. 
 

some sailors who finished behind me would have been there if it had been the Olympics. 
 

don’t count me a a fan of having sailing In the  Olympics. 
I think the Olympics generally harm the sport of sailing. 


 

 

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4 hours ago, jgh66 said:

Do you only sail 10 regattas? In the old times we did at max 28 including 505 worlds, several eurocups and 470 and 505 nationals.. and we were not really campaigning for the olympics.. 

Depends on the year, and the timing in the quad. 

In general, regattas that we would use a new sail for;

- Palma

- Hyeres

- Laser Europeans

- Laser Worlds

- Japan World Cup 

- Nationals

Then depending on if you go to Miami, or want to use a new sail for a regatta like Sail Melbourne, that's a few more. If you're doing some high level training camps/coaches regattas, you'd also use a new sail for them as well

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4 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

The Olympics 

Which of you who is posting in this thread has sailed a Laser in the Olympics? 
How about the Laser Worlds?? 

I raced in the Laser Worlds  37 years  ago and I don’t think I was one of the top ten from my country. The regatta would have been much less fun with only one from each country. (I wouldn’t have been there)

It would have been less of an event as about half of the top twenty sailors wouldn’t even have been there. 
 

some sailors who finished behind me would have been there if it had been the Olympics. 
 

don’t count me a a fan of having sailing In the  Olympics. 
I think the Olympics generally harm the sport of sailing. 


 

 

Why don't you sail in an non olympic class?

What you say might be an american view, where the Olympics don't matter much. For the rest of the world this might be different. In most countries only olympic sports will get some kind of financial support, which includes much of the youth as well. With less government support the whole sport of dinghy racing will be hurt worldwide. That would be the case if we lose olympic status for sailing. I'm not willing to take part in the games myself, I just care for our kids. 

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7 hours ago, jgh66 said:

Do you only sail 10 regattas? In the old times we did at max 28 including 505 worlds, several eurocups and 470 and 505 nationals.. and we were not really campaigning for the olympics.. 

 I would bet you spent a lot less time training in old times - on and off the water - as present Olympic sailors do. And more time drinking beer...

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Yes, 505 sailing was mostly a beer drinking contest.. still the scandinavians used the 505s to select the 470 guys for the olympics, and many other olympic sailers used to take part.. 

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9 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

 

Fairly sure that still makes the Laser the cheapest class to play the Olympic game in.

When I go for a run I am playing an Olympic game.

When I go for a swim I am playing an Olympic game.

But I don't run or swim so that I can play an Olympic game. I do them for their own sake. It feels good to do them.

Why should sailing be any different?

I don't sail to play an Olympic game. I sail to sail. It's fun. It's exciting. it keeps me fit. It feels good.

I used to sail a Laser when it wasn't an Olympic class and when it was an Olympic class. It was just as satisfying to sail in the years when it wasn't an Olympic game.

Now I sail a boat that isn't in the Olympic game, an RS Aero. I sail an RS Aero to sail an RS Aero.

PS Welcome back @Bruce Hudson

 

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Fully agree that non olympic sailing is a lot more fun than olympic sailing. And I never said that it was a good idea to choose the Laser for the games. But it is what it is today, if ILCA members want to be olympic and MNA don't choose another boat it will be like that for quite some time. 

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24 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

Fully agree that non olympic sailing is a lot more fun than olympic sailing. And I never said that it was a good idea to choose the Laser for the games. But it is what it is today, if ILCA members want to be olympic and MNA don't choose another boat it will be like that for quite some time. 

Do ILCA sailors want the ILCA to be an Olympic class? Did anybody ever ask them?

And for the record, nobody asked us RS Aero sailors whether we wanted the RS Aero entered in the competition for the Olympic kiss of death, either.

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2 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Do ILCA sailors want the ILCA to be an Olympic class? Did anybody ever ask them?

And for the record, nobody asked us RS Aero sailors whether we wanted the RS Aero entered in the competition for the Olympic kiss of death.

Normally the members have to decide during an AGM or something depending on class rules. As far as I know the majority of ILCA members want to keep the boat in the Olympics. I know that the majority of 505 or Contender sailers don't want to become Olympic while both have won an Olympic selection event.. 

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50 minutes ago, tillerman said:

When I go for a run I am playing an Olympic game.

When I go for a swim I am playing an Olympic game.

But I don't run or swim so that I can play an Olympic game. I do them for their own sake. It feels good to do them.

Why should sailing be any different?

I don't sail to play an Olympic game. I sail to sail. It's fun. It's exciting. it keeps me fit. It feels good.

I used to sail a Laser when it wasn't an Olympic class and when it was an Olympic class. It was just as satisfying to sail in the years when it wasn't an Olympic game.

Now I sail a boat that isn't in the Olympic game, an RS Aero. I sail an RS Aero to sail an RS Aero.
 

Clearly I was talking to someone who had sights on Olympic gold, who was specifically talking about campaigning an Olympic class internationally.

Note that when you run you are surely playing an Olympic game, its just not the best game (because its not with a one design sailboat). Unless. The fastest running I have run recently was when I have put my dolly above the high tide mark, and my boat started floating away, so I needed to do a sub 14 second 100 m to catch it. (Then running is part of the best game.)

When you swim its because you have capsized, and it could very well be part of a most excellent Olympic game.

When you don't run or swim and are sailing, you may or may not be doing it as part of an Olympic campaign.

I used to sail the Laser before and after it was selected for the Olympics too. Bully for me. I sail Lasers for fun. The last boat I sailed in was a Laser. It was fun. The next boat I will sail in will be a Laser. It will be for fun. I know that my sailing for fun has nothing to do with the conversation above.

You sail an Aero? I never knew!! You should tell more people. You may even build a half decent fleet one day. There is an amazing fleet of thousands and thousands of people sailing the four Aeros in New Zealand. Or is it six. Can't remember. But apparently, one day a few years back, two sailed together! (So it was fleet sailing). Definitely qualifies NZ to have a dot on the Aero website don't you think? Yes, you should definitely throw your oar in, make pertinent points about the relative costs of Olympic classes by talking about running and swimming, say that you sail for fun, and DEFINITELY PROMOTE THE AERO. Because the Aero needs promoting.

Important: I hold absolutely no grudge against the Aero or any other one design class.

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28 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

 DEFINITELY PROMOTE THE AERO. 


OK. Whatever rocks your boat.

Screen_Shot_2020-05-27_at_10_16.07_AM.thumb.png.3fa73e27fd5b9ae841ee81340162fec6.png

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11 minutes ago, tillerman said:


OK. Whatever rocks your boat.

Screen_Shot_2020-05-27_at_10_16.07_AM.thumb.png.3fa73e27fd5b9ae841ee81340162fec6.png

You wrote previously you like new things, so you might start a new thread on the Aero. 

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On 5/29/2020 at 3:41 PM, Firefly-DC said:

yes it is.  Still happily sailing and racing

 

wow- I had access to a dealer boat in the late 80's and raced it several times.  Always wondered what it would be like with a fixed keel instead of the centerboard.  The check stays were always cockpit spaghetti and took them off.  It handled surprisingly well in big breeze going upwind was pretty squirrely offwind.  Pretty sure it was the only one I ever saw.

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

When I go for a run I am playing an Olympic game.

When I go for a swim I am playing an Olympic game.

But I don't run or swim so that I can play an Olympic game. I do them for their own sake. It feels good to do them.

Why should sailing be any different?

I don't sail to play an Olympic game. I sail to sail. It's fun. It's exciting. it keeps me fit. It feels good.

I used to sail a Laser when it wasn't an Olympic class and when it was an Olympic class. It was just as satisfying to sail in the years when it wasn't an Olympic game.

Now I sail a boat that isn't in the Olympic game, an RS Aero. I sail an RS Aero to sail an RS Aero.

PS Welcome back @Bruce Hudson

 

I have a different view. Sailing, swimming, horseback riding, running, walking, bike riding, weightlifting, skiing and driving a car are all activities. They do not become a game (and maybe not even a sport) until there is competition. I just went for a run this morning - not a game and not even a sport in my mind. I sailed my Laser on Saturday - first time this year and it was blowing hard so I just blasted around the lake. Not a game and not sure if it is even a sport. It was fun and it was exercise, but no race = no game.

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On 5/31/2020 at 3:57 PM, jgh66 said:

I am also curious about the Opti. Do the champs sail old boats?

When the new IOD 95 class rules came out, we started to build a plug to the new rules since the company we had bought was a bigger supplier of the old rules Optis in one european country. We still have some of these boats in our club. We pulled a mold from an old Opti that was known to be the closest in shape to the new rules boat, and pulled a plug that we started to finish to the rules. There were no other builders that already that had a mold at that time. I can just tell you that it was very difficult to build a plug, then a mold and then a finished boats that measures. It´s easier today due to new resin systems. We stopped since we had too much developement work to do on other boats at that time, but I had a deeper look into the system. I can tell you that there is close to nothing to increase the performance of the finished boat, so all current Optis are very identical, and you can win with boats from every builder. Tolerances a very tight. Optis stay stiff for a long time, so you can use it for a long time. But Opti parents like to buy brandnew boats, love to pay a premium to buy a boat that they believe might be a tiny bit better. But that´s far from true. The latest trend is to use old style woven roving at 0/90° instead of +-45° biaxial knitted fabric which is allowed under the rules to make the boat a bit softer and more flexibel - crazy idea for Laser sailers...... The class currently has 30 builders wordwide from small shops that sell only locally without dealer markups to bigger international builders that have a dealer network. Seems to work quite fine.  So yes, it is technically possible to win races with an old boat. Problem is the brain.

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2 hours ago, Bill5 said:

I have a different view. Sailing, swimming, horseback riding, running, walking, bike riding, weightlifting, skiing and driving a car are all activities. They do not become a game (and maybe not even a sport) until there is competition. I just went for a run this morning - not a game and not even a sport in my mind. I sailed my Laser on Saturday - first time this year and it was blowing hard so I just blasted around the lake. Not a game and not sure if it is even a sport. It was fun and it was exercise, but no race = no game.

Good point.

I sail and run  because I enjoy the activities. The games can be fun too but they are not the reason I sail or run.

I swim because I enjoy the activity but I never compete in swimming races.

I have enjoyed sailing many different boats and have won games in some of them.

Some boats suck, but not many.

Life is too short to sail boats that suck.



 

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8 hours ago, tillerman said:

Do ILCA members want the Laser to continue to be an Olympic class? Did anybody ever ask them?

FIFY.

This ILCA member says yes.

(There aren't many ILCA members here in this forum).

PS: The last Olympics in Rio the Olympic rings replaced Laser logo on the sails, and guess what, the boats were still called Lasers.

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44 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

FIFY.

This ILCA member says yes.

(There aren't many ILCA members here in this forum).

PS: The last Olympics in Rio the Olympic rings replaced Laser logo on the sails, and guess what, the boats were still called Lasers.

I am indifferent. If it were to come to a vote, I am sure I would vote "yes", but wouldn't be too concerned if the majority went "no". 

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:



Life is too short to sail boats that suck.



 

Honestly don't think I have ever sailed a boat that sucked.  Sailing never sucks regardless of the boat.

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8 hours ago, Bill5 said:

I have a different view. Sailing, swimming, horseback riding, running, walking, bike riding, weightlifting, skiing and driving a car are all activities. They do not become a game (and maybe not even a sport) until there is competition. I just went for a run this morning - not a game and not even a sport in my mind. I sailed my Laser on Saturday - first time this year and it was blowing hard so I just blasted around the lake. Not a game and not sure if it is even a sport. It was fun and it was exercise, but no race = no game.

Nice framing of the distinction between an activity, sport and game.   The entire laser fubar is solely about the integrity of the game.  Competitors play the game  at all levels and so  that is why you need complete integrity in the rules, equipment etc top to bottom,  otherwise... why bother.   This should be the ILCA's primary focus.  However, some us want the Class Association role to be broader and reach out to those who are  just into the activity or casually in the sport...  Basically a boat owners group as well.   Only MamboKings has described a class association (Viper 640) that does a good job of this other (and I argue essential role).   The fact of the matter is that as racers/competitors  we don't give a fig about those who sail XXX for an activity or dabble in the sport of sailing.   Once upon a time boat dealers did this job.    What does it look like for laser sailors going forward?

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On 5/31/2020 at 1:02 PM, Bill5 said:

Add to that a few lawsuits, a rogue builder, FRAND, IOC, WS and you have the nightmare ILCA is living. Take it away, @Wess

OK; will do.

On 5/29/2020 at 8:48 PM, Firefly-DC said:

hey wess tell us about the hidden fees, receipts or they aren't real

 

 

OK; sorry for the delay.  Military orders and commitments. Swamped so will have to be quick though this is a topic I love so thanks for asking.

First I don't know what a hidden receipt is and am sure I never used that term - or recall anyone else on this thread using it - so I there I will have to defer. But hidden fees. Oh yes they are very real, alive and well in ILCA land.  Since you ask I am happy to oblige.

There are now more fees than ever (both number of fees and dollars total) on ILCA boats, they are a direct result of ILCA actions and they are not disclosed to buyers of boats thus making them hidden.

If you buy a boat from Ovington for example included in the purchase price are fees imposed by both WS, ILCA, and PSA/ILCA.  These fees total hundreds of dollars (USD).  I originally posted they totaled between $250 and $500  (and closer to $500) but I was told I was wrong (low).  There are fees to Kirby, there are fees to WS.  There are FRAND licensing fees and one time upfront fees (amoritized over time and added to the purchase prices of boats sold).  There are plaques fees and button fees and on and on and on. 

Not only are these fees hidden from buyers of boats they are significantly increased both in terms % of boat sale price and as absolute dollars.  And finally, not only are the fees hidden, and at historically higher than ever as a direct result of ILCA action, in many cases they are virtually unprecedented across Olympic sports the buyer gets absolutely nothing of benefit from them.

This is all good if you want to sail an ILCA in the Olympics, but for 1000s and 1000s of grass roots and club levels sailors this is bad.  It is in fact, in combination with other ILCA actions and in-actions the reason the ILCA market has been in decline for so long and why club level sailors ignore and don't join or support ILCA in ever increasing numbers.

Thank you for bringing this up. It is one of my favorite topics.  And God knows with the Nation going to hell in a hand-basket it makes a nice diversion.

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46 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

There are now more fees than ever (both number of fees and dollars total) on ILCA boats, they are a direct result of ILCA actions and they are not disclosed to buyers of boats thus making them hidden.

If you buy a boat from Ovington for example included in the purchase price are fees imposed by both WS, ILCA, and PSA/ILCA.  These fees total hundreds of dollars (USD).  I originally posted they totaled between $250 and $500  (and closer to $500) but I was told I was wrong (low).  There are fees to Kirby, there are fees to WS.  There are FRAND licensing fees and one time upfront fees (amoritized over time and added to the purchase prices of boats sold).  There are plaques fees and button fees and on and on and on. 

Not only are these fees hidden from buyers of boats they are significantly increased both in terms % of boat sale price and as absolute dollars.  And finally, not only are the fees hidden, and at historically higher than ever as a direct result of ILCA action, in many cases they are virtually unprecedented across Olympic sports the buyer gets absolutely nothing of benefit from them.

 

 
Do most ILCA members support the decisions of the ILCA to add all these hidden fees into the price of ILCAs?

Were members of the ILCA ever asked for their views on all these new fees on ILCAs?

Do most members of the ILCA even know about why ILCAs will cost so much?

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If you can see the fees, then they aren't exactly hidden.

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On May 28, 2020 at 7:55 AM, Bill5 said:

This all looks great, Julian - especially on the new builder. The following chart shows the revenue generated by ILCA for plaques and sail stickers:

image.png.bd6bf38b4b876f320f461bbb6f37a6ea.png

And here are the boats built for the corresponding years (from ILCA):

2017      212236 – 214962 (2726)
2018      214963 – 216182 (1292)
2019      216183 – 217579 (1396)

So for plaque fees, that's $89/boat for 2017, $84/boat for 2018 and $93 for 2019. Variances can be explained, as boats built one year may not be sold until the next, and 2019 was a projection.  Sail button fees are trickier because they aren't just sold with new boats. However I am told the "red button" sails are ~$10 and the "orange button" sails are ~$20 (to defray development costs of the Mk 2).

I also received some information from ILCA on going forward fees. There will be a "Kirby fee" of $100 per hull which will be collected from all the builders - which I am told that, depending on the builder, is less than before. Also, there will be a fee for QR stickers that will be applied to all boats and parts, like this:

image.png.c5d4d9e1d545966cea30a08a20ec6d62.png

This sticker will confirm things like the manufacturer, date of manufacture and so forth. So the idea is that when there is measurement at regattas these get scanned to ensure compliance. This is all part of the overall need for stricter controls which goes hand in hand with other measurement tightening - including more frequent visits to facilities etc.. Development is taking some time in finding stickers that robust, but apparently a solution has been found. Note the legacy builder (PSA and PSJ) will get a cut of the QR sticker fee per boat. This is the price to pay for them allowing unrestricted completion under alternate brand names. 

I was assured the total amount of fees are not driving the price of the boat and nobody is getting rich. As an Olympic boat, compliance is key. 

The final tally for fees will be published, however "the final skirmishes need to be dealt with".

In the meantime, guessing at fees and guessing at boat prices from multiple builders is a mug's game. But we do know a few things:

1) There will be more builders than before.

2) Builders will be under closer scrutiny.

3) For those who find this distasteful/unacceptable, and money is a main driver in your purchase, there is the LP Laser. 

 

image.png

@Wess and @tillerman  I guess you two old codgers either can't keep up or can't remember this post where, courtesy of ILCA when I asked them, the updated fees are described. We don't know the QR sticker fees nor the final costs for boats but will. And it makes no difference to me when. Now lay back down for a nap. And stop asking the same questions over and over and over. But I understand - my grandma used to do that in her 90's as well. Do you remember which one of you has the Aero and which one has the trimaran? 

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Blather on!! Let’s get to a new page today!!!

 

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I did see that post and even responded Bill.  And no rest for the weary.  Or naps. As I am duty bond to remind you again that your post re fees is inaccurate in amount and incomplete in its list. And if you don’t consider $500 as driving up the costs OK but you are clearly far more wealthy than me or most out there. Congratulations on that but for many that is a pretty significant sum and it’s a huge increase. But maybe Bill, just maybe.... you could think a bit on this. Maybe this is the problem. That you and ILCA don’t think $500 matters. That $10K (USD) boats don’t matter. That changing the name doesn’t matter - along with the vision of what it was. That you don’t see how this whole path is contrary to what the Laser was which was affordable great OD racing. Now it’s fragmented and fragmenting further and expensive. Wildly expensive for what you get. And you really canntt understand why people at the club level don’t join the class? Seriously? Five hundred bucks matters. Heck, one hundred bucks matters. Especially when it’s unprecedented and money for nothing. Well other then supporting a class infrastructure that spends more time and money globe trotting than they do doing anything for grass roots club level sailing. 

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6 hours ago, Bill5 said:

@Wess and @tillerman  I guess you two old codgers either can't keep up or can't remember this post where, courtesy of ILCA when I asked them, the updated fees are described. We don't know the QR sticker fees nor the final costs for boats but will. And it makes no difference to me when. Now lay back down for a nap. And stop asking the same questions over and over and over. But I understand - my grandma used to do that in her 90's as well. Do you remember which one of you has the Aero and which one has the trimaran? 

Love you man. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wess said:

I did see that post and even responded Bill.  And no rest for the weary.  Or naps. As I am duty bond to remind you again that your post re fees is inaccurate in amount and incomplete in its list. And if you don’t consider $500 as driving up the costs OK but you are clearly far more wealthy than me or most out there. Congratulations on that but for many that is a pretty significant sum and it’s a huge increase. But maybe Bill, just maybe.... you could think a bit on this. Maybe this is the problem. That you and ILCA don’t think $500 matters. That $10K (USD) boats don’t matter. That changing the name doesn’t matter - along with the vision of what it was. That you don’t see how this whole path is contrary to what the Laser was which was affordable great OD racing. Now it’s fragmented and fragmenting further and expensive. Wildly expensive for what you get. And you really canntt understand why people at the club level don’t join the class? Seriously? Five hundred bucks matters. Heck, one hundred bucks matters. Especially when it’s unprecedented and money for nothing. Well other then supporting a class infrastructure that spends more time and money globe trotting than they do doing anything for grass roots club level sailing. 


Now I have to repeat myself. Buy an LP Laser or a used boat. That way you save thousand of dollars and, as a grassroots sailor like me, you don’t miss a beat. Or buy an Aero - a bit more money but less fees. Or buy a trimaran and rid yourself of the grief. 

PS - grassroots sailors have not bothered joining the association for years and years. In 1983 when I was the District Secretary and we had 3:1 vangs there were plenty of non members racing.

Edited by Bill5
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38 minutes ago, Bill5 said:


Now I have to repeat myself. Buy an LP Laser or a used boat. That way you save thousand of dollars and, as a grassroots sailor like me, you don’t miss a beat. Or buy an Aero - a bit more money but less fees. Or buy a trimaran and rid yourself of the grief. 

PS - grassroots sailors have not bothered joining the association for years and years. In 1983 when I was the District Secretary and we had 3:1 vangs there were plenty of non members racing.

And then I need to repeat myself.

1.) This dynamic you describe is bad.  For all.  But lets start with builders. 

1a.) Its bad for builders that ILCA has set up a system that has added so many hidden fees at such a high cost and made so many changes to the boat, contrary to the original vision, that it is so expensive.  So expensive that grass roots folks don't buy new.  But it would be better for all if they did (buy new because new boats were affordable instead of expensive).

2.) I ain't so old that I don't remember that many at a club level were joining ILCA in the past (OK long past but at least in the US they were).  And frankly I would like to join again but I want to join a class association that cares about more than the elite, the Olympics, China/Asia, and PSA and ILCA doesn't.  I knows you will say they do and they will say they do but its all talk and lipstick on a pig.  I judge by what they do and their actions consistently hurt not help club level grass roots Laser sailing.

3.) I am not, was not, and never have been in love with LPE so am not keen to buy their boat.  Doubt I am the only one.  I could be convinced IF it was clearly viable at the club level the same as generic sails are but I doubt it will be.  I expect ILCA will take proactive actions and decision such that the ILCA boat and LPE Laser are different to the point that the LPE Laser is no longer the same and therefore not viable.  ILCA has never embraced generic sails and have already taken action to try to stop generic boats.  More fracturing is coming in my opinion.

But you can have the last word as I have too much work to do.

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Posted (edited)

Last word? I doubt that. But I do offer a solution to your woes, and those of other grass rooters that are distraught:

image.thumb.png.370b46163e181fd7e4427467b56403a1.png

 

image.png

Edited by Bill5
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23 hours ago, Wess said:

OK; will do.

OK; sorry for the delay.  Military orders and commitments. Swamped so will have to be quick though this is a topic I love so thanks for asking.

First I don't know what a hidden receipt is and am sure I never used that term - or recall anyone else on this thread using it - so I there I will have to defer. But hidden fees. Oh yes they are very real, alive and well in ILCA land.  Since you ask I am happy to oblige.

There are now more fees than ever (both number of fees and dollars total) on ILCA boats, they are a direct result of ILCA actions and they are not disclosed to buyers of boats thus making them hidden.

If you buy a boat from Ovington for example included in the purchase price are fees imposed by both WS, ILCA, and PSA/ILCA.  These fees total hundreds of dollars (USD).  I originally posted they totaled between $250 and $500  (and closer to $500) but I was told I was wrong (low).  There are fees to Kirby, there are fees to WS.  There are FRAND licensing fees and one time upfront fees (amoritized over time and added to the purchase prices of boats sold).  There are plaques fees and button fees and on and on and on. 

Not only are these fees hidden from buyers of boats they are significantly increased both in terms % of boat sale price and as absolute dollars.  And finally, not only are the fees hidden, and at historically higher than ever as a direct result of ILCA action, in many cases they are virtually unprecedented across Olympic sports the buyer gets absolutely nothing of benefit from them.

This is all good if you want to sail an ILCA in the Olympics, but for 1000s and 1000s of grass roots and club levels sailors this is bad.  It is in fact, in combination with other ILCA actions and in-actions the reason the ILCA market has been in decline for so long and why club level sailors ignore and don't join or support ILCA in ever increasing numbers.

Thank you for bringing this up. It is one of my favorite topics.  And God knows with the Nation going to hell in a hand-basket it makes a nice diversion.

What's the matter @Firefly-DC? Don't like facts?

Are you ever going to tell us what happened to the NA ILCA builder? 

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Just now, Wess said:

What's the matter @Firefly-DC? Don't like facts?

Are you ever going to tell us what happened to the NA ILCA builder? 

what facts, you have presented no facts, just speculation to what some builders fees may be.   when you give me line by line exact values then you will have given me facts.  you have not done that.  until that you're nothing more than a toddler screaming in the cereal isle that you want you're fruity laser puffs.

 

as far as NA ILCA builders, I have no idea.  I am not now nor have i ever been a member of the ILCA.  I do not know anyone involved in the management of the ILCA.  Both of my lasers were built by NA builders.  but you keep screaming and stamping your feet an maybe you'll get you're fruity laser puffs

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If you have never given a sufficient shit to join the class, why the fuck are you wasting our time scrolling past your irrelevant input ? 

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Just now, Gouvernail said:

If you have never given a sufficient shit to join the class, why the fuck are you wasting our time scrolling past your irrelevant input ? 

then just keep scrolling

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Just now, Firefly-DC said:

then just keep scrolling

And posting

Gotta do both 

and sail an  AERO

 

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But seriously... if you don’t care how the class operates why do you waste your time suggesting how it should operate??

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Just now, Gouvernail said:

But seriously... if you don’t care how the class operates why do you waste your time suggesting how it should operate??

i'm not.  i don't have a problem with what they are doing.  have they made mistakes? possibly, but i have not seen any indication of any self serving or ulterior motives by the leaders if ILCA that wess appears to see.

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26 minutes ago, Firefly-DC said:

what facts, you have presented no facts, just speculation to what some builders fees may be.   when you give me line by line exact values then you will have given me facts.  you have not done that.  until that you're nothing more than a toddler screaming in the cereal isle that you want you're fruity laser puffs.

 

as far as NA ILCA builders, I have no idea.  I am not now nor have i ever been a member of the ILCA.  I do not know anyone involved in the management of the ILCA.  Both of my lasers were built by NA builders.  but you keep screaming and stamping your feet an maybe you'll get you're fruity laser puffs

 

You say you have never been a member of ILCA but you owned two Laser built by NA builders... why didn't you join ILCA?

 

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6 minutes ago, Wess said:

Wow; you seem kinda angry. 

People who have anger issues end up blocking others.

(You know, like you did to me. ;)

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13 minutes ago, Wess said:

Wow; you seem kinda angry. 

And you say you have never been a member of ILCA but you owned two Laser built by NA builders... why didn't you join ILCA?

 

not angry but I find your continuous whining and complaining annoying.

 

not owned, own.  I am a member of USSailing, MBSA, PHRF-NE, PHRF Marblhead, ORR, DSA and QYC.  I do not see the value to me of joining another association as someone who is just another club sailor.

 

I use Intensity sails as well

 

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12 minutes ago, Firefly-DC said:

 

 

I use Intensity sails as well

 

Ahhh!! So you do t even race Lasers

 

i am not complaining about that . New Lasers are no longer available in most of the world 

Well,,,,,,, maybe it is time to try an AERO 

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Just now, Gouvernail said:

Ahhh!! So you do t even race Lasers

 

i am not complaining about that . New Lasers are no longer available in most of the world 

Well,,,,,,, maybe it is time to try an AERO 

I race my lasers with an intensity sails and nautos cleats for the outhaul and cunningham and a self made 6:1 vang with harken blocks.  now tell me I can't because I'm not using legal equipment.

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There is a difference between facts, complaining, and lying.

For example while you seem to disagree or dislike it I answered your question honestly about hidden fees.

They are not disclosed to buyers of ILCA boats (heck they have not yet even been fully disclosed by ILCA and I bet they never will be) so they are hidden.  They are also far greater both in terms of number of fees and types of fees and add up to both a greater % of an ILCA boat's selling price and a greater amount in absolute dollars.  I think even the most ardent ILCA supporter would agree that is undisputed truth and that kinda tells the story.

You then complain I have not disclosed the exact amount of each hidden.  I canntt help you; aim that complaint at ILCA.  I have no way to disclose what they have not disclosed. They still haven't disclosed the total list of all fees that are piled onto ILCA boats. I do have a list from someone who in theory would be in the know and generally the information they have provided has been proven accurate but I can't know for sure that it is or isn't and since its confidential its not for me to post it.  If they want to they can. 

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1 minute ago, Wess said:

There is a difference between facts, complaining, and lying.

For example while you seem to disagree or dislike it I answered your question honestly about hidden fees.

They are not disclosed to buyers of ILCA boats (heck they have not yet even been fully disclosed by ILCA and I bet they never will be) so they are hidden.  They are also far greater both in terms of number of fees and types of fees and add up to both a greater % of an ILCA boat's selling price and a greater amount in absolute dollars.  I think even the most ardent ILCA supporter would agree that is undisputed truth and that kinda tells the story.

You then complain I have not disclosed the exact amount of each hidden.  I canntt help you; aim that complaint at ILCA.  I have no way to disclose what they have not disclosed. They still haven't disclosed the total list of all fees that are piled onto ILCA boats. I do have a list from someone who in theory would be in the know and generally the information they have provided has been proven accurate but I can't know for sure that it is or isn't and since its confidential its not for me to post it.  If they want to they can. 

so you don't know exactly what if any hidden fees may or may not be charged of builder by ILCA or if they have changed.    but you do have super secret information that you cantt share. 

do you have the negative of the Zapruder film as well?

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11 minutes ago, Wess said:

There is a difference between facts, complaining, and lying.

Wess should be listened to on all three topics, as he has considerable first-hand experience. :) 

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OMG this is good.

Everybody who can fog a mirror and can tell the truth knows all the old fees are still there (Kirby, buttons, plaques etc...), various old ones have been significantly increased (such as WS), and many new ones (FRAND licensing and FRAND upfronts being amortized) of been imposed. There is nothing secret about it.  They are more and they take more. 

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1 minute ago, Wess said:

OMG this is good.

Everybody who can fog a mirror and can tell the truth knows all the old fees are still there (Kirby, buttons, plaques etc...), various old ones have been significantly increased (such as WS), and many new ones (FRAND licensing and FRAND upfronts being amortized) of been imposed. There is nothing secret about it.  They are more and they take more. 

what are they, line by line, dollar by dollar

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They are already listed in the thread,  I am not doing your homework for you.  See Bill's post for an incomplete list of them and some of the amounts.  If I recall that very incomplete list adds up to about $300.

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

They are already listed in the thread,  I am not doing your homework for you.  See Bill's post for an incomplete list of them and some of the amounts.  If I recall that incomplete list adds up to about $300.

incomplete

 

about

 

3% of the cost of a new boat

 

oh, the horror

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And round and round it goes. You may be wealthy enough that $300 (incomplete) or $500 or $700 does not matter.  You may not care that what used to cost $7K now costs $10K but to others that kind of money matters.  You are quick to throw away other people's money.  All while you yourself said you see no reason to join another club... ILCA.  My argument is that ILCA should be doing things that make grass roots sailors want to join instead of not join as you didn't.  Picking sailor's pockets of more and more money while doing nothing for them and everything for Olympic sailors is but one example.

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Come back Firefly. I have faith that given enough time you will eventually say something semi-intelligent!  Don't tell me you threw the hook. Guess I will have to try again tomorrow.

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Sorry Gouv; almost got you your new page but the fly flew away and its my bed time.

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

And round and round it goes. You may be wealthy enough that $300 (incomplete) or $500 or $700 does not matter.  You may not care that what used to cost $7K now costs $10K but to others that kind of money matters.  You are quick to throw away other people's money.  All while you yourself said you see no reason to join another club... ILCA.  My argument is that ILCA should be doing things that make grass roots sailors want to join instead of not join as you didn't.  Hitting folks up for more and more money while doing nothing for them and everything for Olympic sailors is but one example.

the laser has been an olympic class for as long as I have owned one, and ILCA have never tried to hide that from me or anyone else.  I knew just what kind of class I was buying into when I bought my USED boats.  there are no hidden fees for used boats and that's what most grass roots sailors buy.  the difference between $7k and $10K is alot more than $300.  so where is the missing $2700, or is ILCA secretly taking that too.  A class made up of people who will pay $10k for a new boat and complain about $300 to the class is not one I want to be a member of. 

 

I on the other-hand don't believe you will ever speak with any intelligence but keep demanding those fruity laser puffs

image.png.4b13c7aacffd0e6825d75f29fd03ac67.png

 

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1 hour ago, Firefly-DC said:

the laser has been an olympic class for as long as I have owned one, and ILCA have never tried to hide that from me or anyone else.  I knew just what kind of class I was buying into when I bought my USED boats.  there are no hidden fees for used boats and that's what most grass roots sailors buy.  the difference between $7k and $10K is alot more than $300.  so where is the missing $2700, or is ILCA secretly taking that too.  A class made up of people who will pay $10k for a new boat and complain about $300 to the class is not one I want to be a member of. 

 

I on the other-hand don't believe you will ever speak with any intelligence but keep demanding those fruity laser puffs

image.png.4b13c7aacffd0e6825d75f29fd03ac67.png

 

LaserPerformance

$6,990.00
 

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2 hours ago, Firefly-DC said:

I race my lasers with an intensity sails and nautos cleats for the outhaul and cunningham and a self made 6:1 vang with harken blocks.  now tell me I can't because I'm not using legal equipment.

By definition, you are not racing Lasers when you use non builder supplied sails and certain other non-builder supplies items. 
If you claim you are sailing a Laser when it is not a Laser you should be brought before a hearing committee and banned from all sailboat racing 

 

please do not dig that hole for yourself 

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

Hey...I agree Lasers are sucky pieces of shit built by troglodytes ...I believe I agreed with you...My advice is : Buy a new boat as every second a Laser is used it gets softer and slower..

 

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And that ^ doesn’t need any (mis)interpretation.  Seems flawed logic buying a new sucky piece of shit when you could buy a new nice thing though.  

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42 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

And that ^ doesn’t need any (mis)interpretation.  Seems flawed logic buying a new sucky piece of shit when you could buy a new nice thing though.  

Buy an AERO to sail

buy a Laser to play the racing game 

fir some of us, the AERO game already is stocked with diverse and enough players to play our game to the personal Full use.

unfortunately, that game doesn’t yet exist near my home 
sometimes the game exists in lasers around here but it has been dying a little more every year since 2002.

dome of our former best events aren’t even happening and the largest have fallen from over eighty boats to barely breaking 20.

i sure do hope one of the new builders decides to promote its product 

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45 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

And that ^ doesn’t need any (mis)interpretation.  Seems flawed logic buying a new sucky piece of shit when you could buy a new nice thing though.  

I have said for the last 60 years:

if there is a fifty boat fleet that regularly races porcelain bathtubs with masts one the drain holes, bedsheets for sails and chopping boards as leeboards and  rudders (with tight one design rules) I will be there twice a week all summer and go to a couple regattas every year.

it isnt about what toy. It is about having good sized fleets of those  toys. 

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Are Lasers built by troglodytes or highly experienced and skilled craftsmen?

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59 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

it isnt about what toy. It is about having good sized fleets of those  toys

But it is very important that the right stickers are on that toys.....!?!? and it is made sure they are only made by troglodytes?!? 

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4 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

sometimes the game exists in lasers around here but it has been dying a little more every year since 2002.

dome of our former best events aren’t even happening and the largest have fallen from over eighty boats to barely breaking 20.

i sure do hope one of the new builders decides to promote its product 

So, by your own words,  isnt that an indication that the Laser game is dying and the Aero type game isnt? So why prop the Laser game up? Let it die its natural death. At some stage, it needs to let the others breathe new life in to our game and rest in peace of its own accord.

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