Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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WS is monitoring Clean says.  Great!!  So happy to hear they haven't already gone bankrupt and that the bunch of fools (who was it who signed who's name to what forged document again... its so hard to keep up with their incompetence??) have such important things to do like follow SA.

But hey WS since Clean says you are here maybe you could be so kind as to tell us how much money you suck out of each new Laser sold?  And what exactly it is that you did to deserve that money?

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12 minutes ago, Wess said:

WS is monitoring Clean says.  Great!!  So happy to hear they haven't already gone bankrupt and that the bunch of fools (who was it who signed who's name to what forged document again... its so hard to keep up with their incompetence??) have such important things to do like follow SA.

But hey WS since Clean says you are here maybe you could be so kind as to tell us how much money you suck out of each new Laser sold?  And what exactly it is that you did to deserve that money?

Defund World Sailing. 

Sailing isn't one thing. It's many things. 

It's crazy to have one governing body for sailing like you do for soccer, say.


Sailing includes dinghy sailing and keelboat sailing and multihull sailing and windsurfing and kiteboarding and riding foils in a UFO or an AC75. For those who want to race there is short course racing around the buoys and races around the world and everything in between. You can sail on lakes or rivers or bays or down the coast or across an ocean. You can try and set speed records over 500 meters or across the Atlantic or around the world. You can sail in a wooden boat you made yourself or some high-tech marvel of carbon-fiber equipped with all manner of electronics and gizmos and other amazing technologies. Sailing is everything from a gentle sail in the setting sun with the love of your life, to taking five years to cruise around the world, to racing around the world with a crew of a dozen sweaty hairy men. It is a couple of billionaires frittering away their fortunes trying to win the America's Cup; and it is a man and his wife day-sailing in a Catalina 30 on their local bay.

It's a shame that the word "sailing" was ever invented. It confuses people. It makes them think there is such a thing. There isn't.


There is no such thing as sailing. It's many things.

Defund World Sailing.

Can you hear me now?

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5 hours ago, VWAP said:

 This means that master sailors can not participate with an “ILCA dinghy” which are not approved by The Laser Class.

Thas's not only sad, it's also stupid.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Defund World Sailing. 

Sailing isn't one thing. It's many things. 

It's crazy to have one governing body for sailing like you do for soccer, say.


Sailing includes dinghy sailing and keelboat sailing and multihull sailing and windsurfing and kiteboarding and riding foils in a UFO or an AC75. For those who want to race there is short course racing around the buoys and races around the world and everything in between. You can sail on lakes or rivers or bays or down the coast or across an ocean. You can try and set speed records over 500 meters or across the Atlantic or around the world. You can sail in a wooden boat you made yourself or some high-tech marvel of carbon-fiber equipped with all manner of electronics and gizmos and other amazing technologies. Sailing is everything from a gentle sail in the setting sun with the love of your life, to taking five years to cruise around the world, to racing around the world with a crew of a dozen sweaty hairy men. It is a couple of billionaires frittering away their fortunes trying to win the America's Cup; and it is a man and his wife day-sailing in a Catalina 30 on their local bay.

It's a shame that the word "sailing" was ever invented. It confuses people. It makes them think there is such a thing. There isn't.


There is no such thing as sailing. It's many things.

Defund World Sailing.

Can you hear me now?

Sorta like World Health

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4 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Several people from WS monitor this thread as one of the few places to monitor for curated info on the TLC/ILCA issue.

OMG,OMG,OMG, first those globe trottin WS peeps  collect super duper super secret fees on our Laser  ILCA. Laserish  boats  for their super duper super secret vaycay's and now they are spying  monitoring our thoughts  about the Laser   ILCA   Laserish boats  some of us  who actually sail Lasers  ILCA  Laserish boats  using the interweb.   OMG,OMG,OMG,

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:




It's crazy to have one governing body for sailing like you do for soccer, say.

 

one?

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48 minutes ago, VWAP said:

one?

Ain’t a bunch of the soccer folks in jail or under investigation for various nasty things involving them taking other people’s money? Maybe I read that wrong but pretty sure it’s true.

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*****INTERRUPTION****
 

Dick Tillman is not doing well. If you have a favorite Dick story this might be a good time to share it. 
 

*****phooey*****
 

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12 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

*****INTERRUPTION****
 

Dick Tillman is not doing well. If you have a favorite Dick story this might be a good time to share it. 
 

*****phooey*****
 

Jesus that sucks. 

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

*****INTERRUPTION****
 

Dick Tillman is not doing well. If you have a favorite Dick story this might be a good time to share it. 
 

*****phooey*****
 

Shit. First met him at Rick White's sailing school, must have been almost 25 years ago.  Nice guy.

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Dick Tillman deserves a front page thread starter, not getting buried in this cesspool. He deserves - requires - much better treatment than that!

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Just now, CenterboardBrake said:

Dick Tillman deserves a front page thread starter, not getting buried in this cesspool. He deserves - requires - much better treatment than that!

There is a thread in the Sailing Anarchy.

 As Dick has always found a way to get along with everybody, I thought it appropriate to interrupt the fight while we chat about what matters. 
 

I understand the urge to flame... just don’t. 

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On 9/16/2020 at 7:07 AM, Wess said:

Good for them.  That is funny right there.  Screw ILCA; join The Laser Class and tell the elite money sucking pick pocket fools to shove it.  Don't you love a good brouhaha Robbie?  Its almost as good as rum.  :D

This is absolutely hilarious!  So If I read this right....  "We have proudly chosen to align ourselves with a class/builder who can't supply parts. In the meantime please continue to use the competitors gear until our supplier can pay their bills.  We'll really stick it to the other guys by putting a cheap assed black tape X mark across their logo"!    I say go for it!

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23 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

 

 

On 9/16/2020 at 11:41 AM, CenterboardBrake said:

Oh the irony! You hold a regatta under "The Laser Class" rules which won't allow ILCA boats or equipment. But then you realize you can't get sails from the benevolent LP so you grudgingly allow ILCA sails (thereby acknowledging that they are no different after all) but only if you swear allegiance to LP by crossing out the logo?

I can only hope they post pictures from this event, it will be great to see this explained to World Sailing during their upcoming international status application review.

 

We're applying for NEW, er scratch that... ALMOST, no damn it.... WORKING ON IT Olympic Status! Yeah that's it!

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Westcoast 

I am still waiting for a straight forward answer to my straight forward questions. 

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So much for a kind word for Dick. Though crowd. 

And Robbie I just love the picture and concept of blacking out the ILCA name. As you know I am not much of an LPE fan either but the crossed out ILCA logo is funny. And deserving. 
 

 

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Still lots I don't understand about these "elite money sucking pick pocket fools". One thing is that I don't understand is why LPE isn't seen to be in that group. For years they have been charging the customer fees that they haven't passed on to Kirby they are meant to. So who's pockets have they been picking? The customer or Kirby.

I also still don't understand why you think it is unreasonable for Kirby and/or his designated successors to receive a fee that has been contracted for. Nobody forced the builders to enter into the contract. The views I have heard on this sounds to me just like an insurance company refusing to continue to pay an annuity because somebody has lived too long - a contract without expiry date was entered into and some now want to change those terms. Seems totally wrong to me and the court seems to agree, which is why LPE has had millions of dollars awarded again them.

As for the class, other class associations run the same model, taking fees on new boats and key parts to fund the association. Surely your problem isn't the fees as such, but the fact that you don't like how the class is spending its revenues. That is something I could get behind, because the answer isn't not to charge the fees, it is to change what the association does with the money. 

 

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This is the last Dick Tillman post from

me in this thread. I started another thread in sailing Anarchy 

sorry for interrupting the madness 

 

A92C83E6-6D3D-4FF9-B363-CFE9EDD22BE3.jpeg

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Dick Tillman - his books helped me understand Lasers when I got my first one - which ultimately led to this career choice.

Never met him, but, god, I remember trying to figure out why the heck tying a bunch of knots/making loops in my vang was so darn important.
 

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55 minutes ago, WestCoast said:

Dick Tillman - his books helped me understand Lasers when I got my first one - which ultimately led to this career choice.

Never met him, but, god, I remember trying to figure out why the heck tying a bunch of knots/making loops in my vang was so darn important.
 

I met him at his home club in FL back in '95.  It was like meeting one of those super celebrities for me.  I think I gushed a little about how his 1st book was so important for me as a kid and I used his hiking bench plans that were published in that book to build my first one.  He was super friendly then and he's kept it up.  One of the great ones for sure!   

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1 minute ago, RobbieB said:

I met him at his home club in FL back in '95.  It was like meeting one of those super celebrities for me.  I think I gushed a little about how his 1st book was so important for me as a kid and I used his hiking bench plans that were published in that book to build my first one.  He was super friendly then and he's kept it up.  One of the great ones for sure!   

I built a hiking bench in the 1980s from the plans in Dick's book too  - and I still have it.

I met Dick at a major Sunfish event (maybe a Worlds or perhaps a Midwinters - so long ago I can't remember.)  I was randomly assigned to his team in one of those drunken silly games that they used to have at the dinners at those events. I have a photo somewhere but will not post it to save the innocent from embarrassment. 

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I never met Dick, but he was certainly the first Laser Superstar! His book has helped thousands over the years. 

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One more who built Dick’s hiking bench and still have it. Haven’t used it in ages; spending more time running. Might be a good time to break it out and get back on it.

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10 hours ago, WestCoast said:

Dick Tillman - his books helped me understand Lasers when I got my first one - which ultimately led to this career choice.

Never met him, but, god, I remember trying to figure out why the heck tying a bunch of knots/making loops in my vang was so darn important.
 

Re Dick Tillman - I remember buying his book  when trying to get to grips with my first laser.

Re WestCoast - I am still waiting for a straight answer to my simple questions. 

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6 hours ago, Xeon said:

Re WestCoast - I am still waiting for a straight answer to my simple questions. 

I saw your request the first time.
I sent you a PM earlier in the week answering.

You're not going to get a public reply, no matter how many times you keep asking.
There are damn good reasons for that, which, I imagine are self evident to anyone who follows this thread.

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I won’t ask again. Thanks for the message . It still makes no sense to me on a personal or company level. 

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Pretty sure the situation in the Netherlands will blow over soon enough. There is a small group that runs the class association who aren't very popular with the majority of sailors I spoke with, though there was some ambivilance. The majority of people in the Netherlands I spoke directly with at the time of the vote were critical of those running the class association and supportive of ILCA. Very few were not.

I predict that if they survive the next year or two, there might even be two class associations for a while, and there will be a new ILCA representation, necessary for ILCA events.

It will be irrelevant for most club sailing.

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ILCA has had the website of the illegitimate "The Laser Class" removed from the internet under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act for repeated infringement of ILCA's IP, including illegal use of ILCA's registered copyrights. The infringement included word for word plagiarisation and, unbelievably, the scanning and publication of measurement diagrams from ILCA's class rules.
Any further infringement will likely result in the filing of a federal lawsuit, which would likely name the individual directors of the fake class as defendants. 
ILCA remains the sole authority recognized by World Sailing for the organization and conduct of activities for the ILCA sailboat worldwide and we will continue to protect our rights when necessary.
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I can see a ton of problems in doing what Rastegar is attempting to do, made worse by how he is attempting to do it.

I'm left perplexed as to why anyone in their right mind would support the Laser Class. (Not who would, by why if they could think it through, they would.) 

Things have slowed down because of the pandemic - and its to everyone's advantage that the time is spent reflecting on the best way forward, particularly those who appear to be supporting Rastegar in his latest endeavors - like those in the Netherlands...

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I'm still wondering what "TLC" Full Rigs will look like, given they can't use the MK2 design.  Wouldn't surprise me if the usual sailmakers don't want to deal with them

 

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5 hours ago, aroy210677 said:
ILCA has had the website of the illegitimate "The Laser Class" removed from the internet under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act for repeated infringement of ILCA's IP, including illegal use of ILCA's registered copyrights. The infringement included word for word plagiarisation and, unbelievably, the scanning and publication of measurement diagrams from ILCA's class rules.
Any further infringement will likely result in the filing of a federal lawsuit, which would likely name the individual directors of the fake class as defendants. 
ILCA remains the sole authority recognized by World Sailing for the organization and conduct of activities for the ILCA sailboat worldwide and we will continue to protect our rights when necessary.

OMG,OMG,OMG so it appears those that joined the super duper super fake super duper free "The Laser class" were  ah freeloadin off all of us that do the super duper right thing and join the real ILCA class OMG,OMG,OMG

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12 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Pretty sure the situation in the Netherlands will blow over soon enough. There is a small group that runs the class association who aren't very popular with the majority of sailors I spoke with, though there was some ambivilance. The majority of people in the Netherlands I spoke directly with at the time of the vote were critical of those running the class association and supportive of ILCA. Very few were not.

I predict that if they survive the next year or two, there might even be two class associations for a while, and there will be a new ILCA representation, necessary for ILCA events.

It will be irrelevant for most club sailing.

 

After three days of champagne sailing at the Dutch Masters I can say that we all managed to work great together. The main dealer now stocks both LP and Ovington/ILCA stuff and we had three ILCA sails in the competition, most without the black cross. Everybody just had fun.  A lot of fun! 

 

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1 hour ago, schj said:

The main dealer now stocks both LP and Ovington/ILCA

That's the way to go, I wonder how it'll work here in Spain...

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1 hour ago, schj said:

 

After three days of champagne sailing at the Dutch Masters I can say that we all managed to work great together. The main dealer now stocks both LP and Ovington/ILCA stuff and we had three ILCA sails in the competition, most without the black cross. Everybody just had fun.  A lot of fun! 

 

Here are the results...

33 Standard Lasers - https://www.wsvh.nl/results/ODSC 2020/Standard uitslagen.HTM

30 Laser Radials - https://www.wsvh.nl/results/ODSC 2020/Radial uitslagen.HTM



 

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1 hour ago, schj said:

 

After three days of champagne sailing at the Dutch Masters I can say that we all managed to work great together. The main dealer now stocks both LP and Ovington/ILCA stuff and we had three ILCA sails in the competition, most without the black cross. Everybody just had fun.  A lot of fun! 

 

The way it should be.  Let the sailors decide with their feet.

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8 hours ago, JMP said:

I'm still wondering what "TLC" Full Rigs will look like, given they can't use the MK2 design.  Wouldn't surprise me if the usual sailmakers don't want to deal with them

 

Considering they had to "allow" ILCA MKII sails at their 1st, (maybe last) official event it appears that may already be the case.  LP is a shoe in for the "Shot in the foot" award. 

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2 hours ago, schj said:

The main dealer now stocks both LP and Ovington/ILCA stuff

There's a couple of dealers in the US trying to do this now.  I can see the LP boat, (with whatever sail/gear options they are eventually allowed to equip the hull with) being great club boats, or resort boat options.  Several small boat manufacturers have managed to make a good living off of that market.  Beyond that though I think they are pretty much toast as an official OD class.  Especially when they are forced to jack back up the sale price so they can make a euro.

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1 hour ago, VWAP said:

are you a member of  the new "the laser class"


I have been a member of the Laser class in various places since the early 1980s. I am not a member of "the new the laser class."









 

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The only logical thing to do know for LP would be to bite the bullet, become an authorised builder again, quit the Laser brand bullshit and carry on.

And of course, keep the new prices or explain if they've been ripping off everyone all these years.

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14 minutes ago, tillerman said:


I have been a member of the Laser class in various places since 1980. I am not a member of "the new the laser class."

Fun fact about TLC's supposed membership totals. A few months ago TLC organized several webinars from top sailors, including Nick Thompson and Bruno Fontes. The webinars were free; however, you had to join TLC for access to the webinar. I contacted Nick about it at the time to see if he was aware of the requirement and he was not. I know of a few young Canadian sailors who "joined" the class (at no cost) just so they could access the webinars.

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12 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

The only logical thing to do know for LP would be to bite the bullet, become an authorised builder again, quit the Laser brand bullshit and carry on.

And of course, keep the new prices or explain if they've been ripping off everyone all these years.

I, for one, would be delighted it ILCA were to authorize LP as a builder again but I am not sure what you mean by "quit the Laser brand bullshit."  If LP did become an ILCA authorized builder I hope that LP would continue to keep the Laser brand alive.

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2 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I, for one, would be delighted it ILCA were to authorize LP as a builder again but I am not sure what you mean by "quit the Laser brand bullshit."  If LP did become an ILCA authorized builder I hope that LP would continue to keep the Laser brand alive.

Yeah, maybe probably I didn't express my thoughts very well. I meant reaching an agreement with ILCA in such terms that the boat (or the class) doesn't have to change names ever again.

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15 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

Fun fact about TLC's supposed membership totals. A few months ago TLC organized several webinars from top sailors, including Nick Thompson and Bruno Fontes. The webinars were free; however, you had to join TLC for access to the webinar. I contacted Nick about it at the time to see if he was aware of the requirement and he was not. I know of a few young Canadian sailors who "joined" the class (at no cost) to tune in to the webinars.

"Please join the class to take advantage of the services we offer."

Isn't that the proposition that every class makes? 

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1 minute ago, chuso007 said:

Yeah, maybe probably I didn't express my thoughts very well. I meant reaching an agreement with ILCA in such terms that the boat (or the class) doesn't have to change names ever again.

Agreed!

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Plus, the sooner they become approved builders again, the less market share they will lose to the new builders.

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21 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

The only logical thing to do know for LP would be to bite the bullet, become an authorised builder again, quit the Laser brand bullshit and carry on.

And of course, keep the new prices or explain if they've been ripping off everyone all these years.

 

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22 minutes ago, tillerman said:

"Please join the class to take advantage of the services we offer."

Isn't that the proposition that every class makes? 

you're joking, right?

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No; quite serious. Would not rejoin ILCA but would join the The Laser Class and give that a shot. 

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9 minutes ago, Wess said:

No; quite serious. Would not rejoin ILCA but would join the The Laser Class and give that a shot. 

Have at 'er. 

thelaserclass.com

 

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The question that needs to be asked about LPE is not whether they will ever become an authorised builder, but how long they will survive. Right now, they are all but insolvent. If it were not for an appeal waiting in the courts, LPE would have to close their doors. 

Consider this. The court has ruled that they do owe Kirby and his successors fees under the contract they had. They are appealing. If they lose the appeal, they are insolvent. One of the remedies is that LPE has to stop building boats to the Kirby/ILCA specification and, in a slightly grey area, to the Kirby design, not because Kirby has any remaining rights over the design, but because they breached a contract that basically states they won't build to that design without paying the fees.

But it is more than that. They do not have permission to build in accordance with the construction manual. There will come a point in the game where they will have no option but to change the construction of their boats to one that is non compliant. The other problem for LPE is that if they lose their appeal, they have to give up all their tooling. Sure, they can make new tools, but technically they cannot take a mould off an existing boat but have to start from scratch, making a new plug, which, by the very fact of doing so, makes the boats out of class, because all moulds have to come off the master plug.

Then there is the already mentioned problem of LPE getting class approved parts, such as sails and spars. It won't be long until they can only supply hulls, which probably won't be class legal anyway.

I cannot see any way that LPE is part of the class future, and I think it is unlikely that they will be in the game for the long term.

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Imagine if all the effort expended over the last 20 years to BE IN CHARGE had been spent on building the game. 

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But ILCA wants to be in charge.  As does PSA.  And LPE.  And, and, and...

So just ignore them all, get the cheapest new Laser  (which would be an unplaqued boat), a generic sail, and go sailing at your home or club and you need not care about any of them.  Do what you do (organize local fun stuff).  Keep your money and have more fun free from ILCA plaque nazis.

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11 hours ago, SimonN said:

The question that needs to be asked about LPE is not whether they will ever become an authorised builder, but how long they will survive. Right now, they are all but insolvent. If it were not for an appeal waiting in the courts, LPE would have to close their doors. 

Consider this. The court has ruled that they do owe Kirby and his successors fees under the contract they had. They are appealing. If they lose the appeal, they are insolvent. One of the remedies is that LPE has to stop building boats to the Kirby/ILCA specification and, in a slightly grey area, to the Kirby design, not because Kirby has any remaining rights over the design, but because they breached a contract that basically states they won't build to that design without paying the fees.

But it is more than that. They do not have permission to build in accordance with the construction manual. There will come a point in the game where they will have no option but to change the construction of their boats to one that is non compliant. The other problem for LPE is that if they lose their appeal, they have to give up all their tooling. Sure, they can make new tools, but technically they cannot take a mould off an existing boat but have to start from scratch, making a new plug, which, by the very fact of doing so, makes the boats out of class, because all moulds have to come off the master plug.

Then there is the already mentioned problem of LPE getting class approved parts, such as sails and spars. It won't be long until they can only supply hulls, which probably won't be class legal anyway.

I cannot see any way that LPE is part of the class future, and I think it is unlikely that they will be in the game for the long term.

Better buy up those LPE non-plaque boats quick!

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3 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Better buy up those LPE non-plaque boats quick!

I think the market says otherwise. A fairly new second hand laser sells for more than a new 'club laser' here in NL. And if you want to spend say a thousand euro just by an old laser and have fun. 

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2 hours ago, schj said:

I think the market says otherwise. A fairly new second hand laser sells for more than a new 'club laser' here in NL. And if you want to spend say a thousand euro just by an old laser and have fun. 

Of course.  The ILCA class will hold better value because they are supported by an actual class.  

I was just sayin' for those loyal LPE'ers. They better get those super-duper, class yet to be determined, extra special discounted, mix and match parts to make a complete boat, Laser wanna be boats while they still can cause it's looking like the courts are gonna shut that shit down soon....

 

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10 hours ago, Wess said:

But ILCA wants to be in charge.  As does PSA.  And LPE.  And, and, and...

So just ignore them all, get the cheapest new Laser  (which would be an unplaqued boat), a generic sail, and go sailing at your home or club and you need not care about any of them.  Do what you do (organize local fun stuff).  Keep your money and have more fun free from ILCA plaque nazis.

Or, you may want to consider a novel approach that only tens of thousands have taken - buy a good used boat and keep your options open. You keep even more money than you would buying an unplaqued boat. 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Or, you may want to consider a novel approach that only tens of thousands have taken - buy a good used boat and keep your options open. You keep even more money than you would buying an unplaqued boat. 

I think you are wrong to describe LPE boats as "unplaqued." They are not unplaqued. They are just differently plaqued.

Here is a photo of The Laser Class Interim Executive Secretary Beat Heinz ceremonially affixing a The Laser Class plaque to a Laser at the RYA Dinghy Show earlier this year.
1586252969_ScreenShot2020-09-22at6_47_25PM.thumb.png.f9415369133aaf72f4d4e3b41996f94e.png

You may want to modify the training classes for your Plaque Nazi Squads to make sure they understand this.

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1 hour ago, Sailinginmygenes said:

The laser class website has had the plug pulled.

Laser Performance are blaming  ILCA if so well done ILCA.

Found this on twitter

https://twitter.com/TheLaserClass/status/1308484458589413378?s=20

 

"TLC websites are temporarily down due to ILCA falsely claiming to the site hosts that the Class Rules posted was copyright infringement of the ILCA construction manual. This isn't the first time this type of harassment has happened & TLC is exploring all options to resolve this."

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12 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

Found this on twitter

https://twitter.com/TheLaserClass/status/1308484458589413378?s=20

 

"TLC websites are temporarily down due to ILCA falsely claiming to the site hosts that the Class Rules posted was copyright infringement of the ILCA construction manual. This isn't the first time this type of harassment has happened & TLC is exploring all options to resolve this."

ILCA did it, for sure. Andy Roy posted that they had done it in one of the many The Laser Class/ILCA lovefest threads on Dinghy Anarchy.

 

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13 minutes ago, tillerman said:

ILCA did it, for sure. Andy Roy posted that they had done it in one of the many The Laser Class/ILCA lovefest threads on Dinghy Anarchy.

 

scroll up, it's actually in this thread :P

 

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On 9/20/2020 at 6:22 PM, aroy210677 said:
ILCA has had the website of the illegitimate "The Laser Class" removed from the internet under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act for repeated infringement of ILCA's IP, including illegal use of ILCA's registered copyrights. The infringement included word for word plagiarisation and, unbelievably, the scanning and publication of measurement diagrams from ILCA's class rules.
Any further infringement will likely result in the filing of a federal lawsuit, which would likely name the individual directors of the fake class as defendants. 
ILCA remains the sole authority recognized by World Sailing for the organization and conduct of activities for the ILCA sailboat worldwide and we will continue to protect our rights when necessary.

I can't help but smile...

Will LP refund my TLC membership?

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16 hours ago, Wess said:

But ILCA wants to be in charge.  As does PSA.  And LPE.  And, and, and...

So just ignore them all, get the cheapest new Laser  (which would be an unplaqued boat), a generic sail, and go sailing at your home or club and you need not care about any of them.  Do what you do (organize local fun stuff).  Keep your money and have more fun free from ILCA plaque nazis.

 

15 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Better buy up those LPE non-plaque boats quick!

That's what I first thought. I now think you would be a fool to do so.....

At the moment, the LPE boats are built to the construction manual and, just like has always happened, we take that on trust. Assume for a moment that LPE doesn't win their appeal and they continue to manufacture their version of the boat, they will have to change the construction to one that is not class compliant and is not from class approved moulds (see my post above). I think there is a great deal of difference between a class compliant, non-plaque boat built from previously approved moulds to the construction manual and a boat not made to the construction manual and is out of new moulds that LPE has made themselves. Currently, at club level, people have been happy with certain non class compliant gear, such as sails, because they are, essentially the same. What we are talking about is different, because everybody will know that the boats are different to an unquantifiable amount.

So why not wait for that moment to arrive, and enjoy the cheap LPE boats while you can? Because how will people know what is a compliant non-plaque and what is a non- compliant boat? Yes, there are dates of manufacture and boat numbers etc., but my view is that people will simply steer clear of all non-plaque LPE boats and that will hit the s/h market hard.

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20 minutes ago, SimonN said:

 

 

So why not wait for that moment to arrive, and enjoy the cheap LPE boats while you can? 

You might have to wait a while to get deliver (if ever) for a boat
 
"Please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery.
Sales Team will contact you regarding shipping this order"
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2 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

I can't help but smile...

Will LP refund my TLC membership?

 

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7 hours ago, SimonN said:

 

That's what I first thought. I now think you would be a fool to do so.....

At the moment, the LPE boats are built to the construction manual and, just like has always happened, we take that on trust. Assume for a moment that LPE doesn't win their appeal and they continue to manufacture their version of the boat, they will have to change the construction to one that is not class compliant and is not from class approved moulds (see my post above). I think there is a great deal of difference between a class compliant, non-plaque boat built from previously approved moulds to the construction manual and a boat not made to the construction manual and is out of new moulds that LPE has made themselves. Currently, at club level, people have been happy with certain non class compliant gear, such as sails, because they are, essentially the same. What we are talking about is different, because everybody will know that the boats are different to an unquantifiable amount.

So why not wait for that moment to arrive, and enjoy the cheap LPE boats while you can? Because how will people know what is a compliant non-plaque and what is a non- compliant boat? Yes, there are dates of manufacture and boat numbers etc., but my view is that people will simply steer clear of all non-plaque LPE boats and that will hit the s/h market hard.

Oh there is risk for sure I agree.  In my opinion its pretty clear this is personal and ILCA leadership is determined to put LPE out of business. I doubt this fight ever ends while the current leaders both in LPE and ILCA are in place until one organization or the other kills the other.  It feels like a death match LOL.  And in terms of the boat that used to be a Laser, ultimately ILCA holds all the cards.  They clearly can and I would guess will change the boat such that LPE boats (even if kept the same) would be different from ILCA boats.  LPE could always reverse engineer and build a generic copycat but would they want to?  The leadership of ILCA has stated clearly that they see a future for the boat and class in a changed boat even if its just the rig and I would bet it will not be just the rib but changes to the hulls as well (mast step, deck stiffening (we already have seen some of this), etc...).  Hard to know what happens at the club level if all that comes to play.  Essentially ILCA would, through those changes, obsolete used existing club boats in terms of being competitive in an ILCA event and to some small extent already have (in theory but not much that it matters in practice yet IMHO) done some of this. But for some time now the vast majority of Laser sailor don't join ILCA and don't follow their rules.  Non-legal generic sails and generic parts are quite common in club events.  So if ILCA boats change as expected and obsolete existing club Lasers which way do club sailors go?  Does LPE stay in business or die?  I woulds guess they stay in business since they clearly hold the Laser trademark and can build a generic version of the boat and regardless the Laser itself was a small part of the larger business but who knows for sure.  Death matches rarely end in hugs and kisses.

But yea it presently it seems foolish to buy anything new Laser/ILCA related plaqued or not. 

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I'd think LPE will stay in business as long as the Portugal Government are funding them.  When that dries up, wouldn't expect Rasty to keep shelling out cash to keep them afloat

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13 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

I can't help but smile...

Will LP refund my TLC membership?

Only 50% for now. 

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21 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Found this on twitter

https://twitter.com/TheLaserClass/status/1308484458589413378?s=20

 

"TLC websites are temporarily down due to ILCA falsely claiming to the site hosts that the Class Rules posted was copyright infringement of the ILCA construction manual. This isn't the first time this type of harassment has happened & TLC is exploring all options to resolve this."

TheLaserClass is back up again.

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9 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

Any knowledge about that TLC event on Lake Garda, scheduled for September?

Not that I am planning to go; just curious...

1021805630_ScreenShot2020-09-23at5_28_30PM.thumb.png.7c9de90168a6f2fc5981d84c045a0023.png

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Quote

17. Will TLC follow FRAND policy for European competition?

Yes. A process for approval of builders is being developed. Once a builder successfully fulfills the requirements for a new builder, they will be required to sign a royalty-free licensing agreement with the trademark holder in the territories in which they expect to distribute.

Interesting on TLC website.

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

TheLaserClass is back up again.

So what LP/TLC did was to delete the link to the 'standards and measurements' in the following paragraph on the TLC website

11. What is the difference between Lasers boats with WS-ILCA plaques and The Laser Class plaques?

ILCA issued WS-authorized plaques to LaserPerformance for use for the duration of 2019.  Hence, LP sailboats are One Design compliant and, going forward, TLC considers the LP boat measurements to be the standards for One Design.  Those standards and measurements can be found here. All WS-ILCA plaqued Laser boats are recognized by TLC up to the end of 2019 and, going forward, Laser boats issued with TLC plaques can participate in all TLC-sanctioned events.  Once World Sailing approves TLC, then we expect that WS will authorize TLC to issue plaques on their behalf.

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3 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

 

 

11. What is the difference between Lasers boats with WS-ILCA plaques and The Laser Class plaques?

ILCA issued WS-authorized plaques to LaserPerformance for use for the duration of 2019.  Hence, LP sailboats are One Design compliant and, going forward, TLC considers the LP boat measurements to be the standards for One Design.  Those standards and measurements can be found here. All WS-ILCA plaqued Laser boats are recognized by TLC up to the end of 2019 and, going forward, Laser boats issued with TLC plaques can participate in all TLC-sanctioned events.  Once World Sailing approves TLC, then we expect that WS will authorize TLC to issue plaques on their behalf.

 

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15 hours ago, Wess said:

In my opinion its pretty clear this is personal and ILCA leadership is determined to put LPE out of business.

I cannot see how you come to that conclusion. The only reason why LPE will go out of business is if the appeal court upholds the multi million dollar award against LPE, which they do not have the funds to pay (I believe they have admitted this). The ILCA leadership are not part of that legal case. Now, If you had said that Kirby and his successors were determined to put LPE out of business, then I would totally agree with you. I guess you will try to link ILCA with the "Kirby Group", but I would remind you that the class broke with Kirby (by changing the class rules) at least 2 years before it broke with LPE.

Why are the "Kirby Group" trying to sink LPE? A few seem to think it is so that PSA can gain global domination. For me, that does not stack up. What we do know is that for years (I think at least 3, but it could be 4), LPE collected money from its customers that everybody believed was being paid to the "Kirby Group", which needed to have been paid to legally put ISAF/WS stickers on their boats and which LPE implied was being paid. They were conning the whole Laser world with that one and the court agrees, which is why they ruled against LPE and awarded the "Kirby Group" millions. My understanding is that part of the reason why the court found against LPE is that on one hand, LPE was saying it didn't owe the Kirby Group" money because there was no valid contract while at the same time, they were collecting the money due under that contract and implying that it was being paid.

I still don't understand why people constantly overlook this behaviour by LPE.

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39 minutes ago, SimonN said:

I still don't understand why people constantly overlook this behaviour by LPE.

Myopia and intransigence?

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14 hours ago, tillerman said:

TheLaserClass is back up again.

You just can’t keep them down LOL. 
 

Simon - While I disagree with you re ILCA you seem to think I am a fan of LPE.  I’m not.  They were stupid enough to walk into a trap and deserve what they got. And I doubt their going forward plans as stated will be successful. 

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On 9/22/2020 at 1:20 AM, SimonN said:

The question that needs to be asked about LPE is not whether they will ever become an authorised builder, but how long they will survive. Right now, they are all but insolvent. If it were not for an appeal waiting in the courts, LPE would have to close their doors. 

Consider this. The court has ruled that they do owe Kirby and his successors fees under the contract they had. They are appealing. If they lose the appeal, they are insolvent. One of the remedies is that LPE has to stop building boats to the Kirby/ILCA specification and, in a slightly grey area, to the Kirby design, not because Kirby has any remaining rights over the design, but because they breached a contract that basically states they won't build to that design without paying the fees.

But Laser Performance Europe stopped builder Lasers some time ago and that company is no longer trading in any realistic sense. The European Lasers are being built by an entirely different company, Laser Performance LLC, albeit presumably under much the same ownership. Laser Performance LLC are not a party to any of the court cases. What the implications are of that relative to the court proceedings I don't know. AIUI Laser Performance (Europe) were contractually prohibited from selling the moulds to Laser Performance LLC, but I'm not sure there was anything prohibiting Laser Performance LLC from buying them. I imagine sorting all that out would be another ten years of lawyers.

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