Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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2 hours ago, chuso007 said:

"To win in Laser, you need to be the right size. Sailing is inevitably an equipment sport. The sailor should be allowed to tailor his equipment according to his size, weight and morphology. Not permitting this leads to a narrow weight/height band of competitive sailors in a given class, shutting plenty of morphology out of Olympic competition altogether."

Never looked at it this way... Interesting.

Very good read. I need a Finn....

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Most sports have an ideal size. 
300 pounds to be an NFL Lineman

100 is huge for women’s gymnastics

the sailor on the trapeze needs to be tall with big shoulders and skinny legs

a NFL lineman could not serve as helmsman in a J-24

There are no 300 pound soccer players or 125 pound sumo wrestlers. 

It even takes a certain size of body part to be a porn star. 

***
Various sized folks have various advantages in life. 
 

I am about eighty pounds too heavy to be competitive over a full season on our local lake. Some days I win because I am the biggest. 
If all that mattered were winning, most of the fleet’s sailors would rarely or never have a great experience. 
The fact is most of us just go out to Sail and be with our friends. 
 

I start every race with the intention of finishing so far ahead I can’t tell who is in second. I have the most fun when five or six of us cross the finish line so close together we have to ask who won. 

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Because olympic sports shouldn't lead to a narrow weight/height band of competitive athletes?  That's how sports works.  If you have a bigger crew, you have more morphology.

fumduk argument.

 

 

I just said it was an interesting point of view not that it was mine. Is Laser competition more "Olympic" than the Finn, Soling, 470, Dragon or Star? Because those are not SMOD.

Did you even read the article?

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na, it's just a modification of the same argument that's been rehashed for decades.  The concept of physioloigical diversity in small-team or non-team sports is vapid.

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2 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Really?  That's a very substantial part of the Olympic equipment argument, as the Radial typically needs a sailor's weight to be in excess of 60Kgs with a height of more than 170cm. That rules out a majority of women outside "the West" (ie Europe, NA, NZ/Oz) and hence closes out the sport to less affluent nations...

 You could argue that there should be weight divisions, as in martial arts, but that's not going to help with the cost of staging the events... and neither is the alternative of allowing individual sailors to tune their boats for their size and technique, since that leads to the sort of cost escalation that made the Europe "unaffordable"...

Cheers,

               W.

Do you think a 1,80m cyclist should use the exact same bicycle as a 1,65m one? Then why shouldn't a sailor be able to use a stiffer or softer mast if it suits him/her better. Finn sailors do it. Is it about the best sailor winning or the one with the perfect size and weight?

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4 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

na, it's just a modification of the same argument that's been rehashed for decades.  The concept of physioloigical diversity in small-team or non-team sports is vapid.

Yeah, well the article is about monopolies in olympic sailing and fair competition, not diversity.

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9 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

Yeah, well the article is about monopolies in olympic sailing and fair competition, not diversity.

yet the part you cited was a complaint about one-designs creating an optimal body type.

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The point in the article is this: the weight range in SMOD is much narrower than MCOD

Aarhus%20fleet%20comparison-1.png?width=

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

yet the part you cited was a complaint about single manufacturer one designs one-designs creating an optimal body type.

FIFY

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2 hours ago, chuso007 said:

 

The point in the article is this: the weight range in SMOD is much narrower than MCOD

Aarhus%20fleet%20comparison-1.png?width=

What I see first and foremost is the impact of the Finn getting the punt. 

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What I see is a guy my size and weight sailing a laser...That should give me some hope.

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31 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

What I see is a guy my size and weight sailing a laser...That should give me some hope.

I would like to see the dots that represent the medalists. 

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8 hours ago, tillerman said:

You can never have too many class associations.
 

For sure we need more class associations! Anything but ILCA please!  

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49 minutes ago, Wess said:

For sure we need more class associations! Anything but ILCA please!  

looks like I'm 49er helm size. Too bad I'm old.

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17 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

 

If all that mattered were winning, most of the fleet’s sailors would rarely or never have a great experience. 
The fact is most of us just go out to Sail and be with our friends. 
 

 

Truth right there.  You grow and sustain a fleet not from the elite and top down, but from the bottom up.

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23 hours ago, chuso007 said:

"The sailor should be allowed to tailor his equipment according to his size, weight and morphology. 

Never looked at it this way... Interesting.

It would be interesting to know how many different mast and sail designs were represented among those Finns. At Olympic level especially I reckon I've seen a tendency for everyone to pick the perceived optimum kit, not mix and match to body type. 

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Finns would all have a custom luff curve fitted to one of a few base sail models dependent on a mast built to their body weight and size.

The mast manufacturer's bend numbers are accurate enough for the sailmaker to put the correct luff curve on a new sail from just the numbers if they've been in the game long enough.

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15 hours ago, Wess said:

Truth right there.  You grow and sustain a fleet not from the elite and top down, but from the bottom up.

Well that is just completely wrong.   You need elite sailors who set the bar at a high level,  find enough competition to keep it interesting so they come out to play with the fleet and MOST IMPORTANTLY understand that the fleet sustains ONLY WHEN they worry about the bottom of the fleet and try to grow those sailors performance by sharing knowledge, mentor ship etc etc..    If you want to talk about a club ....sure... its about the bar and social scene and good friends.... tis why many yacht clubs....  stop racing and just do the supper club thing..     Stuart Walker was a member of your dinghy club... did you ever talk with him about what makes for successful fleet....  He kept a soling fleet alive for what 25 years post olympics? 

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For east coast people: the first container of Ovington ILCAs has been ordered, should arrive over the winter, with more behind.

They are working on southern US representation next.
 

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On 10/1/2020 at 7:16 AM, Wess said:

Yes and its his view I am repeating.  DUH, LOL!

So tell us more. What were the views of the venerable, sage of Annapolis on fleet- building?

 

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On 9/29/2020 at 10:28 PM, Bill5 said:

The point in the article is this: the weight range in SMOD is much narrower than MCOD

Actually, the point in my blog post at https://www.wb-sails.fi/en/sailmakers-log/olympic-sailing-monopolies1 is that SMODs should be opened so that everyone can manufacture not only the hulls but all parts, too. Like we would like to make Laser sails but are still waiting for a license. And 49er, Fx and Nacra.  "To address the antitrust issues, World Sailing has modified its procedures for selecting Olympic equipment and also adopted a new policy that requires all Olympic classes to put in place procedures that would enable any interested and qualified party to become an "approved builder" for that class and to have access to markets with no territorial restrictions."

lasers.png

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As I see it, World Sailing has formed a cartel by signing contracts with SMOD classes, preventing companies outside the cartel from manufacturing products for those classes. For the sails in the Olympics, North, Neil Pryde, McDiarmid, Hyde and Performance sails form the cartel with World Sailing.

EU cartel.jpg

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Not sure that’s the way World sailing ILCA or the EU themselves look at . Surely it only becomes a cartel if they is no way to enter the market and price fixing is involved .

i await to be educated by people who more about it than me :mellow:

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I thought the idea was the parts, including sails, would be opened up on a FRAND basis?  Or are ILCA taking their merry time over delivering on their promises?

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25 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I thought the idea was the parts, including sails, would be opened up on a FRAND basis?  Or are ILCA taking their merry time over delivering on their promises?

That's a good question.  I know Selden is still making aluminum spars, (and plastic spar/caps, pieces) down here in Charleston but haven't heard anything about others trying to get involved.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

So tell us more. What were the views of the venerable, sage of Annapolis on fleet- building?

 

I don't speak for the man obviously.  Great dude, sadly gone and sorely missed. He is a good part of why that club will never be a supper club and that is a good thing.  Its no secret that he shared his knowledge often, freely and easily and spoke often of the need to build from the bottom.  I think its pretty near a direct quote that he would say if you don't help the team in last place get better, they leave, and then the same happens for the next team in line to be in last place all the time and so on and so on and the fleet diminishes and dies.  You grow a fleet by helping the teams at the bottom of the score sheet, not the elites. I doubt this is a surprise or revelation to anyone who has been active in the racing scene especially if involved on the organizing side.  And I assume its clear but this doesn't mean a great social scene (though that club had and has a great laid back social scene and fantastic people) its means helping the bottom get better from a sailing and racing perspective.

Maybe because I heard him speak so often that I associate this with him; I would have sworn it was in some of his many books and writings.

Anyway; cool dude.  RIP Stuart.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

I don't speak for the man obviously.  Great dude, sadly gone and sorely missed. He is a good part of why that club will never be a supper club and that is a good thing.  Its no secret that he shared his knowledge often, freely and easily and spoke often of the need to build from the bottom.  I think its pretty near a direct quote that he would say if you don't help the team in last place get better, they leave, and then the same happens for the next team in line to be in last place all the time and so on and so on and the fleet diminishes and dies.  You grow a fleet by helping the teams at the bottom of the score sheet, not the elites. I doubt this is a surprise or revelation to anyone who has been active in the racing scene especially if involved on the organizing side.  And I assume its clear but this doesn't mean a great social scene (though that club had and has a great laid back social scene and fantastic people) its means helping the bottom get better from a sailing and racing perspective.

Maybe because I heard him speak so often that I associate this with him; I would have sworn it was in some of his many books and writings.

Anyway; cool dude.  RIP Stuart.

OK got it. Thanks. That fits with my experience in other classes. 

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On ‎10‎/‎1‎/‎2020 at 4:10 AM, BlatantEcho said:

For east coast people: the first container of Ovington ILCAs has been ordered, should arrive over the winter, with more behind.

They are working on southern US representation next.
 

Do you know who ordered them?

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47 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

Do you know who ordered them?

Isn't it obvious?

How many guesses do you need?

 

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

Isn't it obvious?

How many guesses do you need?

 

Well, I guess I need at last two. Both Zim and Colie sell ILCAs. I suppose Zim would be more likely. And Wess could have ordered a container to disrupt supply. 

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8 hours ago, Mikko Brummer said:

Actually, the point in my blog post at https://www.wb-sails.fi/en/sailmakers-log/olympic-sailing-monopolies1 is that SMODs should be opened so that everyone can manufacture not only the hulls but all parts, too. Like we would like to make Laser sails but are still waiting for a license. And 49er, Fx and Nacra.  "To address the antitrust issues, World Sailing has modified its procedures for selecting Olympic equipment and also adopted a new policy that requires all Olympic classes to put in place procedures that would enable any interested and qualified party to become an "approved builder" for that class and to have access to markets with no territorial restrictions."

 

What would the price be for an ILCA sail made by WB? 

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EE74F57C-E856-4B5E-A152-7E8A045D25B0.jpeg.e8640968bccf137b57863f2ea659e08c.jpeg

anyone wanting to help build the fleet from the bottom up could help by going to the laser forum and answering the almost daily questions of people new to the laser. It seems like there has been an increase  in the past 4-5 months on the forum in the number of people buying old lasers to sail for fun, with no intention of racing, who are completely new to the game.  They usually have questions about repairs and how to rig the boat, where to get parts, etc... very encouraging.

ps. Mr. Walker wrote some great books. Lasers on the cover!

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On 10/1/2020 at 7:16 AM, Wess said:

Yes and its his view I am repeating.  DUH, LOL!

oh right... I forgot... typically half baked thinking on your part .....      what part of Stuart Walker   "elite  olympic level sailor "   is defined as the bottom up... grass roots sailor? ....  So... if you don't think Stuart kept that soling fleet going at SSA for ever... perhaps you should recommend somebody in that fleet  for sailor of the year for their efforts?

" You grow and sustain a fleet not from the elite and top down, but from the bottom up. "  is nothing but banal pablum.  For all of your antipathy to the ILCA.... you fail to see how essential the top sailors are to keeping the grass roots going......     try this analogy.... a tree needs the canopy for photosynthesis and the roots for nutrients...   That is the entire point of using the grass roots as a metaphor for our human activity of racing toy boats.  When things go to shit.... the grass roots metaphor is used to get the top of the class to pay attention to the entire class.....  

Stuart Walker ANSWERED the questions of the new Soling guys... and was the role model for the middle of the fleet sailors to ANSWER THE QUESTIONS of the new Soling racers.    Sounds to me   Ol Yeller  understands  the process.... Newbies... Plus  Helpful racers starting from the top down.

 

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I've heard of some clubs/classes in the UK running a buddy system, where by each top sailor is buddied up with a newbie/back marker to help give rigging & technique tips. This will help them improve their game & have more fun.

Have any of you tried this at your clubs?

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5 hours ago, Martin T said:

I've heard of some clubs/classes in the UK running a buddy system, where by each top sailor is buddied up with a newbie/back marker to help give rigging & technique tips. This will help them improve their game & have more fun.

Have any of you tried this at your clubs?

We used to have a two day year end event. Day one, fleet racing and day two team racing. We would usually have teams of three. After racing on day one, we would pick the teams according to finishing position in the day's racing. So let's say it was a 15 boat fleet. The top 5 were captains. Teams were filled in reverse order of finish. So the First place finisher had the 15th and 10th on his/her team, 2nd had 14th and 9th, 3rd had 13th and 8th, 4th had 12th and 7th, 5th had 6th and 11th. This made it necessary for the the top guys to encourage/coach/yell at the lesser skilled team members.

Noting this all took place at dinner/party after Day one racing, to add to the fun, after the teams were selected we had a Calcutta where anybody at the dinner could bet on a team. (Note teams could bet on themselves only...). 

Anyway, the event was always a lot of fun, with great comradery and sharing.

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

We used to have a two day year end event. Day one, fleet racing and day two team racing. We would usually have teams of three. After racing on day one, we would pick the teams according to finishing position in the day's racing. So let's say it was a 15 boat fleet. The top 5 were captains. Teams were filled in reverse order of finish. So the First place finisher had the 15th and 10th on his/her team, 2nd had 14th and 9th, 3rd had 13th and 8th, 4th had 12th and 7th, 5th had 6th and 11th. This made it necessary for the the top guys to encourage/coach/yell at the lesser skilled team members.

Noting this all took place at dinner/party after Day one racing, to add to the fun, after the teams were selected we had a Calcutta where anybody at the dinner could bet on a team. (Note teams could bet on themselves only...). 

Anyway, the event was always a lot of fun, with great comradery and sharing.

Brilliant! Never heard of that one before.

At my first Sunfish North Americans they had a buddy system. My buddy rescued me when my rig fell down.
 

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On 10/3/2020 at 2:01 PM, tillerman said:


At my first Sunfish North Americans they had a buddy system. My buddy rescued me when my rig fell down.
 

Oh wow... lback in the day.... ... Tillerman is of the grass roots.... and his buddy is one of the experienced elites of the sunfish class......  worked out well... Tillerman is still going strong!   QED!

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14 hours ago, Tcatman said:

Oh wow... lback in the day.... ... Tillerman is of the grass roots.... and his buddy is one of the experienced elites of the sunfish class......  worked out well... Tillerman is still going strong!   QED!

How dare you. I am not a grass root. I am a weed. Check out my profile photo.

And I am only still going strong because I keep out of the way of lawnmowers. That and the drugs. Mainly the drugs.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

 That and the drugs. Mainly the drugs.

#noroundup

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Here in the night...

When was the evening?

Does back in the day refer to the afternoon or the morning?

The whole boat is soooo last century 

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On 10/4/2020 at 7:15 PM, Tcatman said:

Oh wow... lback in the day.... ... Tillerman is of the grass roots.... and his buddy is one of the experienced elites of the sunfish class......  worked out well... Tillerman is still going strong!   QED!

Always so angry.  You should get a cheap new Laser from LPE, join The Laser Class and go racing in a big OD fleet.  Its fun.  I guess I am not surprised that you don't get that somebody like SW could be both an elite sailor and help at the grass root level but many elite sailors do exactly that.  Those things are not mutually exclusive especially in larger dinghy fleets.  

Unfortunately those concepts are mutually exclusive for ILCA who are solely focused on the elite side of the spectrum which is why most grass roots and club level sailors don't join the class.

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10 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Here in the night...

When was the evening?

Does back in the day refer to the afternoon or the morning?

The whole boat is soooo last century 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

 

The whole boat is soooo last century 

Forget last century. Look to the future.
 


 

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

Unfortunately those concepts are mutually exclusive for ILCA who are solely focused on the elite side of the spectrum which is why most grass roots and club level sailors don't join the class.

Sooo not true!  At least in ILCA District 12!  Every regatta winner writes up a "winners circle" report which we distribute to our growing list of 90+ actively participating sailors.  A little over half are current ILCA class members and while we do encourage membership we don't hold anything back from those who don't join for whatever reasons.  We're now seeing events get a fair distribution of all rigs participating.  While we do have a couple of "elite" members, (guys on the Olympic development team and such) and we're proud to have them there's no way they have the time to assist in our grass roots movement.  But the "higher level" sailors in our district are heavily involved in keeping things moving in a positive direction.  It's going quite well.

Most clubs in our district now have sailing directors and along with ILCA sailing members, (me included) we're helping coach up the youngin's in the boat we love through loaner boats, doner boats and very well priced used boats.  

Things are what you make of them.  Sit on the sidelines and complain or get up and turn that chicken shit into chicken salad! 

 

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@RobbieB is ILCA.
The higher level sailors in his district are ILCA.
Half of the sailors who come to his regattas are ILCA.
ILCA are doing a great job of supporting grass roots sailing in ILCA District 12.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Gotta disagree.  Robbie is doing that; not ILCA.

Say there, Wess, when I challenged you about 10 times to tell me what it what was that ILCA used to do that appealed to you, you (finally) said INSPIRE. And then you went on to say: 

"There is a guy who sometimes posts here who used to play a significant role in the class a ways back.... He did and still does more for grass roots than any of the current crop of ILCA leaders do.  But you asked what they used to do Bill so there is your answer."

Funny enough, I came back to you saying that wasn't ILCA, it was the individual. And now, lo and behold, you are suddenly agreeing with me - albeit with a different individual.  Go figure. So I guess you still owe me an answer as what ILCA used to do for you. 

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I was idly musing on LP  llcs apparent predatory pricing. We know the differential is very little to do with license feed, sail buttons etc, but I wonder if it reflects a typical discounted price? It seems likely corporate sales in Europe were heavily discounted, and ISTR discounts were readily available to club members who banded together. 

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Predatory pricing LOL. Good luck with that one. Bill my answer is the same. If you really can’t understand it I am sorry but that is your problem not mine.

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12 hours ago, Wess said:

Always so angry.  You should get a cheap new Laser from LPE, join The Laser Class and go racing in a big OD fleet.  Its fun.  

I must have missed something. Can you buy one in North America? Where are the big fleets? Wessworld? 

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17 hours ago, Wess said:

Gotta disagree.  Robbie is doing that; not ILCA.

When I reach out to the ILCA they support every request I make.  

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13 hours ago, Bill5 said:

I must have missed something. Can you buy one in North America? Where are the big fleets? Wessworld

After all these months and months and months and months  still 4-6 weeks

"Please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery.
Sales Team will contact you regarding shipping this order"
 
 

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51 minutes ago, Wess said:

Mother may I?

  • Fisherman's Friend Menthol Cough Suppressant Lozenges Cherry Sugar Free - 20 ct
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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Mother may I?

Ok.  I'm struggling to follow here.  What are you expecting?  Are you expecting the class to drive from the top down specifically what they want their District Secretaries doing to drive grass roots activity?

I was also District Secretary for a J24 district some years ago. They were there when you needed them, (just like ILCA) but no one was driving district/grass roots activity from the national level.

US Sailing doesn't even do that.

IF that's what you're looking for then tell us WHO, (what classes) manage in this way?

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Same makers, same prices.. I own a Rooster practice sail and I won last year's club Gran prix with it... Won't pay 4x the price of a practice sail to participate in the class regattas. It's a rip off. There's simply no justification for the legal sail price.

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2 hours ago, chuso007 said:

I own a Rooster practice sail and I won last year's club Gran prix with it... Won't pay 4x the price of a practice sail to participate in the class regattas. It's a rip off. There's simply no justification for the legal sail price.

I don't want to make a comment on price, but I do want to point out that Rooster say the following

Quote

The sail cloth (3.8oz with a heavy yarn tempering which makes it perform extremely well against the official sail)   This is a quality product and will be ideal for those who are looking for the perfect training sail.  Our sail has a little more gust response than the official - making it ideal for sailing on inland waters.

So you are happy winning while using a sail that the maker states is better! To me, that defeats the whole purpose of the Laser. Does this mean that if I am one of those battling to win (even at club level) what i need to do is test all the practice sails from all the makers to see which will give ma an advantage. Or do I ask a sailmaker to make me a practice sail that looks alike the official sail but which has some changes to help me go faster?

I wouldn't have the same issue if the maker claimed the sails performed the same and were made from the same material, but the Rooster is also made from different material.

I am pleased I don't sail one designs, because this would annoy the shit out of me.

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5 hours ago, chuso007 said:

. Won't pay 4x the price of a practice sail to participate in the class regattas.

Laser Radial Sail (Rooster)

Rooster Sailing

$247.00

Out of stock

 

North ILCA 6 Sail, Class Legal (Compatible with Laser®  Radial)

North

$575.00
*FREE SAIL NUMBERING

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7 hours ago, SimonN said:

I don't want to make a comment on price, but I do want to point out that Rooster say the following

So you are happy winning while using a sail that the maker states is better! To me, that defeats the whole purpose of the Laser. Does this mean that if I am one of those battling to win (even at club level) what i need to do is test all the practice sails from all the makers to see which will give ma an advantage. Or do I ask a sailmaker to make me a practice sail that looks alike the official sail but which has some changes to help me go faster?

I wouldn't have the same issue if the maker claimed the sails performed the same and were made from the same material, but the Rooster is also made from different material.

I am pleased I don't sail one designs, because this would annoy the shit out of me.

I get you point, but I also sail with hull #106952 (1983) and a bent daggerboard, so I don't feel like I'm cheating or anything. And my rudder and boom are cheap illegal copies too so becoming legal would cost me well over 1.000€ + the class fee. Not going to happen.

5 hours ago, VWAP said:

Laser Radial Sail (Rooster)

Rooster Sailing

$247.00

Out of stock

 

North ILCA 6 Sail, Class Legal (Compatible with Laser®  Radial)

North

$575.00
*FREE SAIL NUMBERING

It's actually a bit more that 4x, not counting that "copies" include battens and telltails:

It's a rip off!!

1.png

2.png

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6 hours ago, chuso007 said:

I get you point, but I also sail with hull #106952 (1983) and a bent daggerboard, so I don't feel like I'm cheating or anything. And my rudder and boom are cheap illegal copies too so becoming legal would cost me well over 1.000€ + the class fee. Not going to happen.

It's actually a bit more that 4x, not counting that "copies" include battens and telltails:

It's a rip off!!

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You mentioned the rooster sail. The practice radial does not include battens sail numbers etc

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

WOW that is EXPENSIVE!!!  Thanks again ILCA.  So much for cheaper under FRAND.

Who do you suppose is responsible for these differences? 

Boat

Intensity Price

Other Price

Sunfish

$119

$335

Club 420

$390

$840

Opti

$90

$575

JY15

$385

$675

Flying Scot

$560

$1755

Force 5

$159

$535 (some yrs ago)

And this quote from Intensity:

"Our sail has a little more gust response than the official - making it ideal for sailing on inland waters."

Ahem. I had an Intensity sail and there are a few kicking around in the fleet. Great value, but "more gust response"? Give me a break. What does that even mean? The nut on the end of the tiller should be responding to gusts. Advertising BS.

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1 hour ago, VWAP said:

You mentioned the rooster sail. The practice radial does not include battens sail numbers etc

I responded to the link from Intensity sails saying that I wouldn't pay 4 times the price of their practice sail for a legal one. 

I also said I own a Rooster sail.

These two statements are independent.

 

(I will say though, that I didn´t buy the Intensity sail due to the shipping and potential customs costs.)

 

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Unless you wish to lie Bill, then clearly ILCA is responsible for FRAND and the ever increasing prices that accompany their decision to adopt that model.

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Does anybody remember the price of the Mk II sail when it first came out? 

 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Does anybody remember the price of the Mk II sail when it first came out? 

 

Who needs memory? In Sep 2015, ILCA announced that Mark II sails  would become available on November 1st. https://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Laser-Class-announces-new-Standard-Mark-II-sail-legal-from-November-1/-138368?source=google

The Wayback Machine has a copy of the West Coast Sailing website from Nov 4th 2015, with the Mark II sail priced at $530. Battens were sold separately at $64.

355378389_ScreenShot2020-10-08at2_43_41PM.thumb.png.4c9b512e412caf051236c7a6647c78bd.png

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3 hours ago, chuso007 said:

I responded to the link from Intensity sails saying that I wouldn't pay 4 times the price of their practice sail for a legal one. 

I also said I own a Rooster sail.

These two statements are independent.

 

(I will say though, that I didn´t buy the Intensity sail due to the shipping and potential customs costs.)

 

the link was to class legal sails

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Who do you suppose is responsible for these differences? 

Boat

 

Intensity Price

 

Other Price

 

Sunfish

 

$119

 

$335

 

Club 420

 

$390

 

$840

 

Opti

 

$90

 

$575

 

JY15

 

$385

 

$675

 

Flying Scot

 

$560

 

$1755

 

Force 5

 

$159

 

$535 (some yrs ago)

 

And this quote from Intensity:

"Our sail has a little more gust response than the official - making it ideal for sailing on inland waters."

Ahem. I had an Intensity sail and there are a few kicking around in the fleet. Great value, but "more gust response"? Give me a break. What does that even mean? The nut on the end of the tiller should be responding to gusts. Advertising BS.

OMG,OMG,OMG are the super duper super secret long tentacles of the ILCA now collecting super duper super secret  fees from other classes so they can go on their super duper super secret  globe trottin vacay's OMG,OMG,OMG 

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Who do you suppose is responsible for these differences? 

Boat

 

Intensity Price

 

Other Price

 

Sunfish

 

$119

 

$335

 

Club 420

 

$390

 

$840

 

Opti

 

$90

 

$575

 

JY15

 

$385

 

$675

 

Flying Scot

 

$560

 

$1755

 

Force 5

 

$159

 

$535 (some yrs ago)

 

And this quote from Intensity:

"Our sail has a little more gust response than the official - making it ideal for sailing on inland waters."

Ahem. I had an Intensity sail and there are a few kicking around in the fleet. Great value, but "more gust response"? Give me a break. What does that even mean? The nut on the end of the tiller should be responding to gusts. Advertising BS.

IS TLC   collecting super duper super secret fees on their class legal sails?

 

 

MK II Laser Sail

The Mark II Laser Sail is more durable due to it's bi-radial construction, it is manufactured out of longer lasting 4.5 ounce Dacron and comes with TLC Button and Folded Sail Bag. 

sku: 94116
$595.00
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59 minutes ago, tillerman said:


The Wayback Machine has a copy of the West Coast Sailing website from Nov 4th 2015, with the Mark II sail priced at $530. Battens were sold separately at $64.
 

Thanks, Tiller. I should have asked for the time just before the FRAND shitstorm. Can you check, say, Sept of 2019? I can't figure out how to navigate that Wayback Machine. 

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1 hour ago, Bill5 said:

Thanks, Tiller. I should have asked for the time just before the FRAND shitstorm. Can you check, say, Sept of 2019? I can't figure out how to navigate that Wayback Machine. 

I am pretty sure I paid about US750 including battens in 2017.

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

Unless you wish to lie Bill, then clearly ILCA is responsible for FRAND and the ever increasing prices that accompany their decision to adopt that model.

Nice troll. I will humor you.

Where have I lied? That chart is not a lie. All sailmakers sails are relatively expensive compared to Intensity and their ilk.  No lie. 

And I don't believe ILCA unilaterally decided to adopt FRAND. Do you? 

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2 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Thanks, Tiller. I should have asked for the time just before the FRAND shitstorm. Can you check, say, Sept of 2019? I can't figure out how to navigate that Wayback Machine. 

Sorry. Can't find it for that date.

How long does a Mark II sail last? Any better than the Mark 1 sails?



 

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2 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Sorry. Can't find it for that date.

How long does a Mark II sail last? Any better than the Mark 1 sails?
 

My experience is they last a lot longer. 

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

And not as nicely shaped out of the box. And yes Bill. Oh and Opti.

They sure look good the first time you go upwind in a blow. 
Um, what is it you are saying “yes” to? And Opti...?

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Apparently, contrary to reports here by some... they ain't dead yet.  Or so says email from The Laser Class.  Seems like a good thing to me.

 

Register for the Annual General Meeting and Vote on the Constitution


Now that the preliminary Constitution has been written, the final step is to have you, The Laser Class members, to vote on approving it! A poll is available at thelaserclass.com for you to cast your vote by 21 October. On the same page you are able to register for the virtual Annual General Meeting at 1pm Central European Time on 24 October. Registration for the AGM ends midnight Central European Time on 21 October.

You can vote on the Constitution and register for the Annual General Meeting