rkp

29er/49er/RS500 with trailer available in western US?

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I'm in Seattle for a year and am trying to acquire a small used double-hander with a trapeze and asymmetrical, preferrably in the $3-5K range. I'm aware of the 29er, 49er, RS500, Vanguard Vector, and i14 as potential dinghies that would fit the bill.

Anyone know of one of these or something similar available in the western half of the US? I'm monitoring the 29er classifieds site but haven't had any luck so far. I'd also require a road trailer to transport it. If anyone's trying to get rid of one of these or has suggestions about where to look, it'd be great to hear from you! Thanks--

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The 49er, the Vector, and I14's, being double trap boats, are very different and a lot more powered up than the 29er/RS500.  Wish I could help you in the search - are you looking for something to race, or just as a fun skiff to play with?

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3 hours ago, hdra said:

The 49er, the Vector, and I14's, being double trap boats, are very different and a lot more powered up than the 29er/RS500.  Wish I could help you in the search - are you looking for something to race, or just as a fun skiff to play with?

Ah, yup, the 29er and RS500 are my top choices for similar reasons. Mostly looking to have fun and go fast, as well as take some novice adrenaline-junky sailors out :)

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8 hours ago, rkp said:

Ah, yup, the 29er and RS500 are my top choices for similar reasons. Mostly looking to have fun and go fast, as well as take some novice adrenaline-junky sailors out :)

505 is an actual class. Boats are available at that price. Also the Flying Dutchman still exists in small numbers there. Both great boats.

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yep, there are a number of 505s in Seattle, Bellingham. We can get you out on one for nothing. But there are a number for sail on he USA505 and INT505 sites. Prices range from 1500 to 20k.

West coast sometimes also has 29ers. Only kids sailing those here for the most part. 

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What do you weigh? What is your experience? How old are you (you can say less than 18 as a general note)? Are you looking to sometime singlehand or always have someone with you?

The 29er handles best with a combined weight of less than 300freedomUnits. I considered optimum weight for racing to be around 270lbs, but I think top teams are racing a little lighter than that now. Over 300lbs and you need some wind to keep it from being a miserable sinking soap dish. Great boat, I still sit and fantasize about racing them again while I'm sitting at my desk (like i am today on a fricking sunday). A great mix of a fast boat that can still be manhandled around the racecourse when conditions merit. Designed as a youth boat, and the optimum weights reflect that, but I would very happily hop back in one to blast around the bay or race again - and I'm 28 going on 29 soon. If anyone east coast wants to get a geriatric 29er fleet going, I'm all in. The 29er is like riding a bicycle, very hard to stay upright if you're not moving, then it gets easier as you go faster, then harder as you get going really fast. Singlehandable, but it requires a lot of patience, practice, and skill. I sailed mine singlehanded a lot when i was a high schooler, i probably capsized about 30times a day. Didn't break a sweat though, but i might now... Pretty amazing being on a 3 sail reach just skimming the water. Pretty shitty to capsize and need to douse the kite by yourself while trying not to turtle and get the mast in the mud... 

The 505 is a great boat as well, definitely a lot more forgiving. It'll stay rightside up if you let go of it. If you go that route, if you're not looking to race, I would definitely try to find one without a a purchase system on anything that moves (which, if i was buying, i would want, but i'm a racer). They don't look as sexy as a sharp bowed skiff (or skiff-like boat), but the are plenty fast. Will beat 29er's around the racecourse in most wind conditions (with the price being more expensive boats, more expensive gear to maintain if you go all-out, and a much much higher optimum weight for racing (i weigh 130lbs). If i ever get back into dinghies, it'll probably be a 505. I need to move from philly first. 

Older gen 14's will fit your range. A bit finnicky sometimes - they can feel very stuck until ---- until they don't. Very fun. If you're stable on the trapeze then you can bring newer people out with you. They're the same length as the 29er with a lot more sail area. I know someone that would sometimes singlehand one, but i have no personal experience. 

Vector has a reputation for having a bit too much freeboard, so hard to get back in after righting, and maybe being a little too unstable in a class of boats known for being unstable. Also might require a bit of resourfulness for getting parts when things break. 

Can't speak to the RS boats, never seen one in person. 

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@rkp there won't be many RS800 in the states, but there should be more... pretty cheap second hand in the UK and still very competitive. I don't what the shipping links are like between West coast and RS HQ in the UK... but you can get one ready to go for £1800 or $2,400... I'm sure RS would like to see some pop up in the US. 

Comparable to the 29er in skill required to sail but much faster (probably mid way between a 29er and 49er). Twin wire, but can be sailed single with tramps and racks pushed out. Can be sailed with crew sheeting or centre main with cleat... depending on who you are sailing with / preference. 

 

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Lots of good choices, in theory, at least.  Its hard to know what you will find locally.  I sailed an RS800 years ago when Sunsail ran their Club Colonna facility in Antigua, and really loved the boat.  It was my first introduction to skiff sailing, and was pretty forgiving.  We capsized it a lot, but once we got it going it was amazing!   However, I have never seen one in the US, which is a shame!

Colonna had a couple 29ers as well, and we took those out when the RS800 was out of service.  As an older (40s at the time), bigger (175 lbs) guy, sailing with another older, bigger guy, I agree it is not the right boat for two regular sized adults.  It is doable, and once you are powered up its is a blast, but it is like sailing a sinker windsurfer until you are up on plane. 

The 505 sounds great, I don't have personal experience sailing them, I've always wanted to.   I'd look at older I-14's.   We have a One Design 14 now.  It is pretty heavy, at 200lbs, but it is rugged as hell so it is very forgiving of learning mistakes.  Like most skiffs, its happier upside down than right side up, but compared to a modern I-14, it is really stable.  And if you can find one, it will be cheap.   Market price seems to be about $1000, but expect to do some work replacing old blocks and line and minor glass repairs.  It won't be nearly as fast as a more modern skiff, but if you are just going out to have fun and train others on how to sail a skiff, you can have an amazing time blasting around double trapezing under its huge assymetric.  Unlike the 29er, the OD14 needs some weight to sail, and more importantly, to right.  We find that we need at least 310 pounds to get the boat up after a capsize.  So if you are light and want to sail with kids, this will not be a good choice.   There are lots of I-14s out there that are not OD14's, since it is a development class there is a ton of variation between them.  If you find an older boat with a helpful owner, you may get a great deal and some good coaching thrown in.  The I-14 sailors that I have met are super enthusiastic about trying to spread the love for the class.  However, these can be very demanding boats to sail, so if you are trying to introduce newbies to skiff sailing, think about it carefully.

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On 4/14/2019 at 8:23 AM, Locus said:

yep, there are a number of 505s in Seattle, Bellingham. We can get you out on one for nothing. But there are a number for sail on he USA505 and INT505 sites. Prices range from 1500 to 20k.

West coast sometimes also has 29ers. Only kids sailing those here for the most part. 

Cool cool, thanks for the intel. I suppose I was generally hoping for something with an asymmetrical, since it would be quite a bit easier to get the kite up with an inexperienced crew, but I will definitely add the 505 to my watchlist in case I can't find what I'm looking for.

On 4/14/2019 at 10:47 AM, mustang__1 said:

What do you weigh? What is your experience? How old are you (you can say less than 18 as a general note)? Are you looking to sometime singlehand or always have someone with you?

The 29er handles best with a combined weight of less than 300freedomUnits. I considered optimum weight for racing to be around 270lbs, but I think top teams are racing a little lighter than that now. Over 300lbs and you need some wind to keep it from being a miserable sinking soap dish. Great boat, I still sit and fantasize about racing them again while I'm sitting at my desk (like i am today on a fricking sunday). A great mix of a fast boat that can still be manhandled around the racecourse when conditions merit. Designed as a youth boat, and the optimum weights reflect that, but I would very happily hop back in one to blast around the bay or race again - and I'm 28 going on 29 soon. If anyone east coast wants to get a geriatric 29er fleet going, I'm all in. The 29er is like riding a bicycle, very hard to stay upright if you're not moving, then it gets easier as you go faster, then harder as you get going really fast. Singlehandable, but it requires a lot of patience, practice, and skill. I sailed mine singlehanded a lot when i was a high schooler, i probably capsized about 30times a day. Didn't break a sweat though, but i might now... Pretty amazing being on a 3 sail reach just skimming the water. Pretty shitty to capsize and need to douse the kite by yourself while trying not to turtle and get the mast in the mud... 

The 505 is a great boat as well, definitely a lot more forgiving. It'll stay rightside up if you let go of it. If you go that route, if you're not looking to race, I would definitely try to find one without a a purchase system on anything that moves (which, if i was buying, i would want, but i'm a racer). They don't look as sexy as a sharp bowed skiff (or skiff-like boat), but the are plenty fast. Will beat 29er's around the racecourse in most wind conditions (with the price being more expensive boats, more expensive gear to maintain if you go all-out, and a much much higher optimum weight for racing (i weigh 130lbs). If i ever get back into dinghies, it'll probably be a 505. I need to move from philly first. 

Older gen 14's will fit your range. A bit finnicky sometimes - they can feel very stuck until ---- until they don't. Very fun. If you're stable on the trapeze then you can bring newer people out with you. They're the same length as the 29er with a lot more sail area. I know someone that would sometimes singlehand one, but i have no personal experience. 

Vector has a reputation for having a bit too much freeboard, so hard to get back in after righting, and maybe being a little too unstable in a class of boats known for being unstable. Also might require a bit of resourfulness for getting parts when things break. 

Can't speak to the RS boats, never seen one in person. 

Great, thanks for the info. I'm 29 also, about 155 lbs, lots of dinghy and windsurfing experience, and used to sail I-20s in the midwest. At the moment I'm mostly just looking for something simple and fast to sail with an athletic but inexperienced crew. Tipping over is no problem, but an asymmetrical spinnaker would be a big plus :)

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2 minutes ago, rkp said:

Cool cool, thanks for the intel. I suppose I was generally hoping for something with an asymmetrical, since it would be quite a bit easier to get the kite up with an inexperienced crew, but I will definitely add the 505 to my watchlist in case I can't find what I'm looking for.

Great, thanks for the info. I'm 29 also, about 155 lbs, lots of dinghy and windsurfing experience, and used to sail I-20s in the midwest. At the moment I'm mostly just looking for something simple and fast to sail with an athletic but inexperienced crew. Tipping over is no problem, but an asymmetrical spinnaker would be a big plus :)

I took out inexperienced people a few times, learn to sail kids from optis, random adults that wanted to see what a dinghy was like, a couple dates,etc. I was rarely consistently at the pointy end of the fleet, but I knew my way around the boat very confidently to keep it upright. In 8-16kts the 29er sails like most other boats. I enjoyed it as a relatively graceful boat in those conditions - but it won't light your hair on fire. It was a very refreshing change of pace from the FJ's and 420's in college - to just go out and blast around the bay on a plane in 13kts. 20-25kts I still get a lump in my throat thinking about it - and desperately want to do it again lol. 

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2 hours ago, rkp said:

Cool cool, thanks for the intel. I suppose I was generally hoping for something with an asymmetrical, since it would be quite a bit easier to get the kite up with an inexperienced crew, but I will definitely add the 505 to my watchlist in case I can't find what I'm looking for.

Great, thanks for the info. I'm 29 also, about 155 lbs, lots of dinghy and windsurfing experience, and used to sail I-20s in the midwest. At the moment I'm mostly just looking for something simple and fast to sail with an athletic but inexperienced crew. Tipping over is no problem, but an asymmetrical spinnaker would be a big plus :)

The 505 has a spin launcher more or less like the 29er.

Along with the dual poles on launchers makes it almost as easy as a assy boat. Its also a lot more comfortable to sit in vs the 29er. 

I take inexperienced people out all the time in lighter wind and they learn to fly the spin just fine. 

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At the risk of being too commercial, or favoring one boat over another....

We've sold 20-25x RS500s on the West Coast now. They are used as club trainers, fun and fast boats that generally require very little maintenance.
They aren't quite fast as a 505 or 29er, but most sailors can't tell at that speed anyway.

I don't know much about 505s aside from it being an awesome cult of cool people.
29ers come and go in popularity depending on coaches and programs and families investing and pushing.  It just never reaches critical mass around here aside from B.C.

 

If you are just looking at blasting around and having a good time, with limited hassle.  The 500 is basically really really good at that.
It's got the larger XL sails, as well as smaller S sails - so you can ease into it more so than any other skiff like boat like it.

Big fan of the boat for getting people into high performance sailing, without much fuss.
And yes, we happen to own a used one (gut traded it in for a Weta after hurting his back). But, my comments would be the same regardless.
 

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Cost-benefit.
Simplicity-complexity.
Fleet versus loner.

And some other things.
Asym is OK. But really, what is so bad about a proper spinnaker? Haha.

I sail a canoe  and a 505 and a number of other things too. The 505 is like a gentle giant compared to the canoe. But the latter is witchcraft. Especially upwind.

What I love about the 505 and always will is its astoundingly high average speed and mannerly behavior while never failing to be thrilling when it matters. 25 to 30 kts and you can be in epic planing mode, capsize in waves, and recover the boat with only one crew on the board.  Oh and it is the boat that will, if you are big, make you love being a crew. It is so much fun to crew. It is a real 50-50 team boat. Lots of skippers are the crew--with a helmsman steering. Plenty of owner crews. I'd say get out for a ride and see what happens.

The 505 is a good design for taking people out because it has good manners. You can self rescue it alone. At least I can (but I'm 100 kg). When I was 185 lbs I used to singlehand it a lot and it was a blast. Even put the spinnaker up alone! But I don't encourage that until you know it better.

The suggestion of a 14 is considerably farther over on the extremometer. Significantly smaller class, higher performance, trickier and more time consuming boatwright demands. But I've always wanted to sail them too. Who wouldn;t?

At the other end is the FD. Stable. Very. Unlike the 505 you can actually relax at the dock. Harder to recover in a big blow, nevertheless not hard to recover in most normal capsizes. They were the pinnacle of complexity in 1972. But don't have to be to be good boats. Boom is higher. You can rig a working jib. Quite versatile.  Less dinghylike but still the grand old big dinghy. I used to race a classic FD in the 90s.

Then there is the old fireball. Cool boat, great for lighter people. Or the 470 except they all go soft.

I guess you really should see what new (as in less than 10 years old) boats are like--if you can find them and afford them. But especially in the US it is hard to beat the classics for overall support. The "infrastructure" is there for them.
 

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Well said FastYacht

Also if your do look at the 505 the fleet here will support you very well. We have fleet members that are familiar with all the boats on the west coast, (and most in NA) and can assist you with getting the RIGHT boat for you based on price and usage. We have a fleet in Seattle, and Bellingham totaling over 20 boats . Add Vancouver  BC, Port Townsand and portland we have over 40 boats in the area. 

We also support our sailors with cheap sails, parts and expertise shared freely across the fleet. We have the World Champ come and do clinics, costs are  generally to cover expenses and a small stipend, and we have really good sailors that are happy to debrief and assist with tactics boat work etc. Good boat Great People is how it look at it. 

To add the what fastyacht said, the boat is very easy to sail, especially in 10-15. Fast stable no surprises. But in >15 it really lights up and gets fun. 

Its also easy to depower for lighter or inexperienced sailors. When i take friend out in 10-15 I rake back to the 17knot setting and the boat is completely docile. 

I know you said you are just going sailing, but if you are looking to Race locally I-14 s don't race often, No 29rs outside of youth sailing, and even then there are only 6 in the area. No RS500 or Vectors that i have seen. 505's race regularly and you are welcome to come try a boat  or race with us before you commit.  PM me if you want to get more info. 

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On 4/15/2019 at 2:00 PM, Locus said:

The 505 has a spin launcher more or less like the 29er.

Along with the dual poles on launchers makes it almost as easy as a assy boat. Its also a lot more comfortable to sit in vs the 29er. 

I take inexperienced people out all the time in lighter wind and they learn to fly the spin just fine. 

Ahhh I did not know the 505 had a dual polessystem... that would be a game changer indeed, not having to go through complicated pole-jibing choreography. I will definitely keep it in mind as I continue my search. Thanks!

On 4/15/2019 at 3:38 PM, WestCoast said:

At the risk of being too commercial, or favoring one boat over another....

We've sold 20-25x RS500s on the West Coast now. They are used as club trainers, fun and fast boats that generally require very little maintenance.
They aren't quite fast as a 505 or 29er, but most sailors can't tell at that speed anyway.

I don't know much about 505s aside from it being an awesome cult of cool people.
29ers come and go in popularity depending on coaches and programs and families investing and pushing.  It just never reaches critical mass around here aside from B.C.

 

If you are just looking at blasting around and having a good time, with limited hassle.  The 500 is basically really really good at that.
It's got the larger XL sails, as well as smaller S sails - so you can ease into it more so than any other skiff like boat like it.

Big fan of the boat for getting people into high performance sailing, without much fuss.
And yes, we happen to own a used one (gut traded it in for a Weta after hurting his back). But, my comments would be the same regardless.
 

I would definitely be more than happy with an RS500 :) . I've seen the one on your site too, and it's definitely on my radar if I can summon up a bit more cash! 

On 4/16/2019 at 8:36 AM, Locus said:

Well said FastYacht

Also if your do look at the 505 the fleet here will support you very well. We have fleet members that are familiar with all the boats on the west coast, (and most in NA) and can assist you with getting the RIGHT boat for you based on price and usage. We have a fleet in Seattle, and Bellingham totaling over 20 boats . Add Vancouver  BC, Port Townsand and portland we have over 40 boats in the area. 

We also support our sailors with cheap sails, parts and expertise shared freely across the fleet. We have the World Champ come and do clinics, costs are  generally to cover expenses and a small stipend, and we have really good sailors that are happy to debrief and assist with tactics boat work etc. Good boat Great People is how it look at it. 

To add the what fastyacht said, the boat is very easy to sail, especially in 10-15. Fast stable no surprises. But in >15 it really lights up and gets fun. 

Its also easy to depower for lighter or inexperienced sailors. When i take friend out in 10-15 I rake back to the 17knot setting and the boat is completely docile. 

I know you said you are just going sailing, but if you are looking to Race locally I-14 s don't race often, No 29rs outside of youth sailing, and even then there are only 6 in the area. No RS500 or Vectors that i have seen. 505's race regularly and you are welcome to come try a boat  or race with us before you commit.  PM me if you want to get more info. 

Cool cool, thanks for the info! Yes, I'm getting more sold on the 505 by the minute. They sound quite fun and fast... Thanks for the offer, too—I may PM you later on.

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Here are a couple jibes on 505 with dual poles

Outside the boat

 

Inside the boat with commentary. This is a Seattle area boat and sailor (crew at least) Taken at the Gorge in 20+ knots. In lighter air its very easy to pull off

 

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So I assume there are dual guys correct??  And bungees on the poles??  Any pics of the pole fitting and or the bungee setup??

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That first video is at Larchmont, that is Peter Alarie coaching. I've sailed that training session back in 2010. I think this one might be 2011 or 2012. I know the boat and the guys sailing it. They are better at it than I am:-)

 

13 minutes ago, shaggy said:

So I assume there are dual guys correct??  And bungees on the poles??  Any pics of the pole fitting and or the bungee setup??

 

Yes but more than one way. The bungee is in the pole. And the guys and sheets are separate so four total. Oh but endless sheet so 3.5/

The setups vary. There is a takeup system. The pole bungee pulls the pole back and the guy takeup makes that part work magically.
I still use a single pole.

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Mine works like this:

1. Bungee from the back end of each pole into the boom to the front then the back to the other pole. So 1 bungee retracts both poles. Makes adjusting it easier.

2. There is a small diameter line that runs fore to aft of the pole with a kite block on it. That block goes to a second bungee running on top of the boom. This keep the poles near the boom and out of your face.

2. Launcher line goes through cleat at partners up to pole mount (Custom Waterrat) back to rear of pole and all the way through to a guy ring on the front end of pole. 

3. Guy comes out side near mast goes through guy ring and to clew. 

4. Sheet is normal, to stern then to the clew

So when launching you pull the launcher and it sucks the guy to the pole and sets the pole. Release it and the pole retracts and the guy goes slack.

So to gybe you trip the live pole throw the boom across and launch the new pole. Very easy fast and keeps the boat moving. 

 

Just have to watch for the pole snap back when gybing or dousing. 

Pic below is my boat. I setup the poles myself with some assistance from the fleet guru

505 Launcher.jpg

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10 hours ago, Locus said:

Here are a couple jibes on 505 with dual poles

Outside the boat

 

How is it 'wire to wire' if the crew sits on the deck as he comes in and before going out?

Certainly a nice gybe though, and I think sitting is kind of unavoidable in 505, 470 and Fireballs with a low boom to get under... but it's not 'wire to wire' which would have been significantly impressive. 

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5 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

How is it 'wire to wire' if the crew sits on the deck as he comes in and before going out?

Certainly a nice gybe though, and I think sitting is kind of unavoidable in 505, 470 and Fireballs with a low boom to get under... but it's not 'wire to wire' which would have been significantly impressive. 

Wire to Wire is actually accomplished by going round the forestay :-P

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@rkp I've got a Devoti D-One for sale for $6k.  You can play on it solo and then take a friend out on it once in a while.  

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13 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

How is it 'wire to wire' if the crew sits on the deck as he comes in and before going out?

Certainly a nice gybe though, and I think sitting is kind of unavoidable in 505, 470 and Fireballs with a low boom to get under... but it's not 'wire to wire' which would have been significantly impressive. 

So i only sit on the tank on when coming in to keep the pole from wacking me in the face as i trip. On the new side i stand up pull the pole and swing out. Any butt hitting is just due to proximity.  Its not a 49er where you run across and it is slower because we have to operate the poles. but only slightly slower when done right. 

One thing i like about it is if something goes wrong prior to the gybe starting or before the new pole goes out the boat is totally stable. Running deep the chute is covered so we have time when we f-up. Swam many times on the 49er because i didn't run fast enough and the boat is not truly stable with the kite in that position. 29 is better but still seems a bit out of balance when sailed very deep.

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