Senator Seditious Maximus

Chucktown Fuckery

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So this bit of drama popped up in my FB feed tonight.  I don't understand the issues since the acronyms are little used in my small circle of sailing.  Explainy please.  What happened and what's the issues?

John Bowden

This is a letter sent to the regatta chair of Charleston race week. In an absolute true act of sportsmanship I could not be prouder to call Mike Buckley my friend. This is what sailing is all about. Thank you Mike. And to all of the competitors in the melges 24 fleet. It is truly an honor to race against all of you regardless of how the results end up, this is an amazing fleet. Thank you to our team. Anthony Kotoun, Jane Rew Buckley, Caroline Main, and most importantly our leader Travis Weisleder.

Randy,

I was just informed of the decision of the jury to give Lucky Dog a DNE in the race that they were UFD.

I’ve been doing this for a long time and I have never seen something so absurd. This rule prevents competitors from defending themselves against a potential redress.

As the team that specifically BENEFITS from this decision we wouldn’t being doing the sport justice if I didn’t speak up on behalf of our competitor.

The event should reinstate their UFD to be dropped per normal racing rules.

Respectfully submitted,

Mike Buckley

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Regarding the acronyms:

- DNE: Disqualification that is Non-Excludable. Scores the same as a disqualification (DSQ), but can't be discarded from a series results.

- UFD: Per 30.3, " If flag U has been displayed, no part of a boat’s hull, crew or equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting line and the first markduring the last minute before her starting signal. If a boat breaks this rule and is identified, she shall be disqualified without a hearing, but not if the race is restarted or resailed. " In other words, like a black flag, only a bit less since if the race is restarted or resailed a boat so identified can sail in that restart/resail. If a boat is disqualified under this rule, they are scored UFD.

 

So, that's the terminology. Now for the more interesting bit, of why the DNE. https://yachtscoring.com/notice_board_summary.cfm

This seems to be the page where protest decisions are posted (I can't find the actual findings - if they're available that'd help). I can't see any hearing against Lucky Dog which would result in her DNE, although there is protest 16, LD vs ??, which is interestingly both 'open' and 'denied'. Given that this is by LD I presume that this is a request for redress/reopening (the comments section is blank).

 

Certainly an odd one, but without any information on what happened on the water, or in the hearing, hard to give any opinion regarding process/reasoning/etc.

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I think if you are UFD and you continue to race the whole race, RC can DNE you. Please confirm.

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Sailing Glossary
https://www.australiansailingteam.com.au/about/glossary/

Quote

DNE: Meaning “do not exclude", the ruling when the jury disqualifies a boat from a race and awards the maximum number of points for the race, points which may not be discarded from the overall score later

UFD: Meaning U-Flagged - a ruling where a boat is deemed to have prematurely started a race that is started under “U” Flag and is disqualified from that race and awarded the maximum number of points, unless that race is subsequently restarted.

 

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2 hours ago, Brain-O said:

I think if you are UFD and you continue to race the whole race, RC can DNE you. Please confirm.

Not sure if this can be automatic, the UFD is an automatic disqual, continuing to sail the race can turn  this into a unfair sailing issue R2, R69, which will make it a DNE, but I think you have to have a hearing for the R2 breach for this to stick. (Case 65)

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Look at the SIs for the race, it says that if you redress a starting penalty and lose, you get a DNE. 

That said, it’s  BS  that they do that. 

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Reason for that is probably that the leading concept for how to combat a UFD/BFD in the pointy/sea lawyery end of the sport is to ignore the fair sailing rules that say you should drop out, sail the race so that you have a result on the water, then try and get the starting infraction tossed. That line in the SIs is probably trying to reduce that urge, because unless you're going to push a rule 69 against a competitor there isn't really a good way to push down that way of fighting the redress urge.

We're a long way from Paul Elvström

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56 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Reason for that is probably that the leading concept for how to combat a UFD/BFD in the pointy/sea lawyery end of the sport is to ignore the fair sailing rules that say you should drop out, sail the race so that you have a result on the water, then try and get the starting infraction tossed. That line in the SIs is probably trying to reduce that urge, because unless you're going to push a rule 69 against a competitor there isn't really a good way to push down that way of fighting the redress urge.

We're a long way from Paul Elvström

Yea but, how many times in Black Flag starts is it the fault of an undersized/disorganized RC that got you there in the first place with a couple General Recalls?

Get GPS chips that flash red when they flag you - otherwise you waste too much time  in big, aggessive fleets like open Laser events with inexperienced sailors.

 

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If an RO progresses 'up the ladder' of prep flags (P, I, U, Blk) as a result of general recalls due to RC errors, then that's bloody poor form, and certainly not the case amongst ROs that I know and have worked with.

Perfectly acceptable if it's the competitors that can't get themselves together of course.

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5 hours ago, blunderfull said:

Yea but, how many times in Black Flag starts is it the fault of an undersized/disorganized RC that got you there in the first place with a couple General Recalls?

This is the same kind of thinking that has parents going after teachers for their students not succeeding rather than going after their kids to put down the Xbox and study more.

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On 4/13/2019 at 10:36 PM, JimBowie said:

So this bit of drama popped up in my FB feed tonight.  I don't understand the issues since the acronyms are little used in my small circle of sailing.  Explainy please.  What happened and what's the issues?

John Bowden

This is a letter sent to the regatta chair of Charleston race week. In an absolute true act of sportsmanship I could not be prouder to call Mike Buckley my friend. This is what sailing is all about. Thank you Mike. And to all of the competitors in the melges 24 fleet. It is truly an honor to race against all of you regardless of how the results end up, this is an amazing fleet. Thank you to our team. Anthony Kotoun, Jane Rew Buckley, Caroline Main, and most importantly our leader Travis Weisleder.

Randy,

I was just informed of the decision of the jury to give Lucky Dog a DNE in the race that they were UFD.

I’ve been doing this for a long time and I have never seen something so absurd. This rule prevents competitors from defending themselves against a potential redress.

As the team that specifically BENEFITS from this decision we wouldn’t being doing the sport justice if I didn’t speak up on behalf of our competitor.

The event should reinstate their UFD to be dropped per normal racing rules.

Respectfully submitted,

Mike Buckley

Its very nice to see the competitors themselves argue for what they think is right and wrong in terms of rules application.  Sailing needs more of this.

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17 hours ago, DFL1010 said:

If an RO progresses 'up the ladder' of prep flags (P, I, U, Blk) as a result of general recalls due to RC errors, then that's bloody poor form, and certainly not the case amongst ROs that I know and have worked with.

Perfectly acceptable if it's the competitors that can't get themselves together of course.

 

99 times out of 100, it's the competitors "pushing the edge"  thinking they're god's gift to racing...    our flying scott fleet makes me laugh, i need a starting box like horse racing for those asshats...   i was motoring out the committee boat and was having one of the volunteers pull the flags out of the bag and I asked for the general recall to be pulled too..   they didn't know what it was or had seen it ever been used, they had to look it up (the volunteer races olson 30's on a bigger lake and has done RC duty on their lake)   i used it  twice on the first race of the day..  third race i gave up and let them race, no one complained.  after the first recall they complained the line was too short,  the line was 200 yards for 15 boats..

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5 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

 

99 times out of 100, it's the competitors "pushing the edge"  thinking they're god's gift to racing...    our flying scott fleet makes me laugh, i need a starting box like horse racing for those asshats...   i was motoring out the committee boat and was having one of the volunteers pull the flags out of the bag and I asked for the general recall to be pulled too..   they didn't know what it was or had seen it ever been used, they had to look it up (the volunteer races olson 30's on a bigger lake and has done RC duty on their lake)   i used it  twice on the first race of the day..  third race i gave up and let them race, no one complained.  after the first recall they complained the line was too short,  the line was 200 yards for 15 boats..

 

600 foot line for 15 Flying Scots???  Way too long!!!!

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Funny thing is the SIs state:

20.3 If a boat requesting redress for OCS is not granted redress, the
the score in that race shall not be excluded. This changes SI 20.1(b), RRS 90.3 and A2.2

 

But the boat wasn't requesting redress for an OCS, she was requesting redress for a UFD. 

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18 hours ago, jackolantern said:

This is the same kind of thinking that has parents going after teachers for their students not succeeding rather than going after their kids to put down the Xbox and study more.

Those that can race, do.

Those that can’t,  blather on whilst baking in the sun & boozing.   

I appreciate volunteers who get stuck doing RC but, when you see the same old cocktail hounds baying on the RC boat I gotta say enough.   Try lawn bowling.

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2 hours ago, blunderfull said:

Those that can race, do.

Those that can’t,  blather on whilst baking in the sun & boozing.   

I appreciate volunteers who get stuck doing RC but, when you see the same old cocktail hounds baying on the RC boat I gotta say enough.   Try lawn bowling.

So because you're not a lawn bowling, boozing, tanning braying idiot you'll be volunteering for the Race Committee at next year's Charleston Race Week to show us all how its done then?

Glass houses and whatnot

 

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10 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

600 foot line for 15 Flying Scots???  Way too long!!!!

They'd be shocked if they showed up in Essex to race an E22.

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They wouldn't like our start line, where we have up to 19 23ft boats (above that they will split starts) or about 20 - 30 dinghies (<17ft) on the start line.

Video on the front page shows our start line from the box on the clubhouse roof, across to the headland on the opposite bank..

https://horning-sailing.club/index.php

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9 hours ago, fastyacht said:

They'd be shocked if they showed up in Essex to race an E22.

 

LOL!  For sure!  Fleet is rebuilding now, back up to 8 boats, after a decade in decline.  I am sitting out this spring series, to work on our new to us house, but will probably be driving a crash boat on Saturday.....

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4 hours ago, The Q said:

They wouldn't like our start line, where we have up to 19 23ft boats (above that they will split starts) or about 20 - 30 dinghies (<17ft) on the start line.

Video on the front page shows our start line from the box on the clubhouse roof, across to the headland on the opposite bank..

https://horning-sailing.club/index.php

How rude:

rude.thumb.jpg.9a43774487c554af3041fdf4a0c093f0.jpg

I'm not that interested.

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On 4/14/2019 at 11:31 AM, JohnMB said:

Not sure if this can be automatic, the UFD is an automatic disqual, continuing to sail the race can turn  this into a unfair sailing issue R2, R69, which will make it a DNE, but I think you have to have a hearing for the R2 breach for this to stick. (Case 65)

A big caveat here is that to receive the DNE penalty, you must be aware of the UFD, continue to race, AND intentionally inhibit another boat's progress in said race. That is a VERY high bar. As a sailor and regular RC and PC, the provision that if you ask for redress for OCS and lose, it becomes a DNE is frankly absurd and mean-spirited in my opinion. Rules are rules, and fortunately for Lucky Dog, the language was OCS, not UFD, which may have saved them from this provision that was likely there simply to save the RC and PC time. 

Sure, you can say this provision avoids the "sea lawyer," but I am firmly of the belief that you should be able to provide evidence and discuss rationally in a hearing if you believe a mistake was made. There are plenty of times where a mistake was made, but the incident doesn't meet the "through no fault of your own" threshold. Allowing a situation like that to become a DNE is bad practice and damages the sport and the fun people may have at events. Eating up some Jury time is a far lesser penalty for the good of sailing in an event than someone leaving pissed off because they didn't feel they were dealt with fairly. If they get DNE or don't file because the deck is so stacked against them, they may not come back next year. I'd much rather sit on the Jury or explain my actions as an RC member than have someone not return next year. 

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11 minutes ago, ScowLover said:

A big caveat here is that to receive the DNE penalty, you must be aware of the UFD, continue to race, AND intentionally inhibit another boat's progress in said race. That is a VERY high bar. As a sailor and regular RC and PC, the provision that if you ask for redress for OCS and lose, it becomes a DNE is frankly absurd and mean-spirited in my opinion. Rules are rules, and fortunately for Lucky Dog, the language was OCS, not UFD, which may have saved them from this provision that was likely there simply to save the RC and PC time. 

Sure, you can say this provision avoids the "sea lawyer," but I am firmly of the belief that you should be able to provide evidence and discuss rationally in a hearing if you believe a mistake was made. There are plenty of times where a mistake was made, but the incident doesn't meet the "through no fault of your own" threshold. Allowing a situation like that to become a DNE is bad practice and damages the sport and the fun people may have at events. Eating up some Jury time is a far lesser penalty for the good of sailing in an event than someone leaving pissed off because they didn't feel they were dealt with fairly. If they get DNE or don't file because the deck is so stacked against them, they may not come back next year. I'd much rather sit on the Jury or explain my actions as an RC member than have someone not return next year. 

By the simple fact of deciding to continue racing, you're intentionally inhibiting another boat's progress. Whether it's because they can't take a lane you occupy, whether you drop them some bad air, if they need to cross behind you, whatever. And by the way, the position you achieve by being over early and continuing to race, if you successfully argue redress for being called UFD, that position was made materially better by having a jump on the rule abiding portion of the fleet who were behind you at the start.

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4 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

How rude:

rude.thumb.jpg.9a43774487c554af3041fdf4a0c093f0.jpg

I'm not that interested.

It's not rude, it's a requirement by law in the EU that you notify anyone accessing your site, that you use cookies. That is a standard page brought up by many other sites.  In many other countries they just put the cookies on your computer without telling you. 

 

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So we had our share of blow come through this year while boats were actually racing and the RC just kept us going!  Nasty rain squall on Friday and then the 30knot front late Sunday.

Produced some fun and carnage on some of the last DW legs for some!

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4 hours ago, jackolantern said:

By the simple fact of deciding to continue racing, you're intentionally inhibiting another boat's progress. Whether it's because they can't take a lane you occupy, whether you drop them some bad air, if they need to cross behind you, whatever. And by the way, the position you achieve by being over early and continuing to race, if you successfully argue redress for being called UFD, that position was made materially better by having a jump on the rule abiding portion of the fleet who were behind you at the start.

You are assuming that the sailor knew they are UFD. Common training is to not hail the UFD boats because of the potential issue of the boat continuing to sail. Can you prove whether or not they heard the VHF hail if that is how you did it? If your radio happened to lose its waterproof seal that day and it started raining, is that worthy of a rule 69? No reasonable person wants to be involved in that particular fight as there are no winners. 

In therms of what it means to hinder another boat, Case 34 spells this out clearly. There must be intent to hinder, not just the fact that you are on the course. 

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2 hours ago, The Q said:

It's not rude, it's a requirement by law in the EU that you notify anyone accessing your site, that you use cookies. That is a standard page brought up by many other sites.  In many other countries they just put the cookies on your computer without telling you. 

 

+1

is is rude to let people know that they are about to tread in dogshit?  Every website you visit is likely to be putting that dogshit out there for you to tread in.

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On 4/15/2019 at 3:38 PM, blunderfull said:

Those that can race, do.

Those that can’t,  blather on whilst baking in the sun & boozing.   

I appreciate volunteers who get stuck doing RC but, when you see the same old cocktail hounds baying on the RC boat I gotta say enough.   Try lawn bowling.

It is this attitude that discourages well qualified sailors who also perform RC duty at a high level. Don't make a hasty generalization.

You will find that competitors at the top of a good fleet appreciate good RC work. Those near the tail end of that fleet act like a tail end.

Dave Ellis, and yes, I've won 7 Nationals and been PRO at a lot more.

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2 hours ago, sailwriter said:

It is this attitude that discourages well qualified sailors who also perform RC duty at a high level. Don't make a hasty generalization.

You will find that competitors at the top of a good fleet appreciate good RC work. Those near the tail end of that fleet act like a tail end.

Dave Ellis, and yes, I've won 7 Nationals and been PRO at a lot more.

Copy that Dave.  

Stand by my comments tho.   When you travel from Boston, to say...LIS as example, for any level event, and RC is just not up to task - that attitude as well “discourages”  good sailors from traveling down that way again.

 

 

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Yep, point well taken. If one has raced for a while, (decades!), they can site examples. Like an East Florida club where the long-posted on- line SIs had one letter different from the printed. No redress for the Sunfish that went "the wrong way." Sarasota Laser regatta where Mark M used the upwind leeward mark as the starting pin. RC said it was up to us to protest.St. Pete YC posted a change of course with compass bearing. The mark boat was really slow to move, so mark dropped 60 degrees off. Back of the 505 fleet happy. I was on the protest committee and we tossed that race. Some howled, others congratulated.

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remember RC, only hire BIMBO Union certified marksetters and you wont have these problems. Experienced labor isnt cheap and cheap labor isnt experienced!

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