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Shootist Jeff

Reparations for Slavery

Slavery Reparations Policy  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the US Gov't Pay Reparations to descendants of Slavery?

    • Yes
      8
    • No
      26
  2. 2. If Reparations are paid out, will this end the racism question once and for all?

    • Yes
      1
    • No
      33
  3. 3. Why should we pay Reparations?

    • It will solve the current Racism issue finally
      0
    • White Guilt
      1
    • It will address past wrongs from 300 years ago
      7
    • It will make me feel good
      1
    • It will not solve anything
      25
  4. 4. Reparations vs Social Programs

    • Should we pay Reparations to only blacks with direct Slave ancestry
      2
    • Pay Reparations to all Blacks
      3
    • Pay Reparations to only Poor Blacks (Not Doctors, Lawyers and such)
      0
    • We should enact social programs that lift everyone (even whites) out of poverty
      29


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It was the big topic on PBS Newshour and other mainstream news.  

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/point-taken/should-us-pay-reparations-black-americans/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/12/us/georgetown-reparations.html

All started by a Georgetown University (my alma mater) student vote on paying slave descendant's reparations.  

Now it seems it's become a litmus test for democRATic candidates out on the campaign trail.  It's like ya'll really want Trump to win again in 2020.  

So where do you stand on this?  Good, bad or indifferent?

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My take is we should definitely pay reparations to descendants of black slaves from Africa.  We could then finally end the butthurt from 400 years ago and move on to a colorblind society finally where everyone succeeds or fails based on their own individual effort and such.  Even though I don't feel like I had any hand in slavery or perpetuating the racism from Jim Crow, or holding a black man down and the like.... I'm willing to do my part to get past this and move on.  So how much do I need to write the check for?  What will it take to move past this current phase?

And yes, I get that the pendulum needs to swing well into the other direction before anyone is willing to take a deep breath and step back from the precipice so they can feel they got a little revenge on the man.  

 

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I am 25% Irish.  My people were discriminated against and mistreated when they came to America.  I want some of that reparations cash too.

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  1. Yes 
  2. Yes
  3. Address 300 years
  4. All Blacks.

However.

  1. This burden does not belong just to this generation. Maybe they are the least culpable. 
  2. America has already given the black community trillions of compensatory reparation through and endless list of programs and affirmative actions. What ever calculation is made needs to account for that. 
  3. It must be a mutual agreement. It can not be some sort of validation for continuing  racism 
  4. lastly it should be an annuity over generations that is given to a the  black community not individuals. 
  5. The use and distribution of these funds to be determined by a paid professional commission of Canadians appointed by the Canadian Parliament
    1. WTF you say? Just trying to keep US politics and corruption out of the distribution. Seemd like a clever way. maybe you have a better plan.
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This passover I'm gonna make a motion at the family seder to petition the Egyptian government for reparations. 

We wuz kangz slaves, yo.

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

We could then finally end the butthurt from 400 years ago and move on to a colorblind society finally where everyone succeeds or fails based on their own individual effort and such. 

I think this kind of statement should make individuals qualify to become "perpetual donors" to the fund. The program should reward those escaping their racial stereotypes and overt racism with economic benefits.

Fully tongue in cheek. 

But seriously, Jeff, statements like this show that you'd only resent any solution imposed upon you by the gubmint. Congratulations for making the survey only modestly offensive.

For you to think that slavery was only impactful 300-400 years ago is a statement of such blinding stupidity that it's unfair to expect any progress from you on the issue. If slavery ended, and men became equal at the end of the war against secession, this conversation wouldn't have to occur.

The question of "who gets reparations" is a good one.

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Great questions.   One more.   Who pays?   My ancestors weren’t even in America during the slave days, nor for the end of reconstruction when the Jim Crow Redeemers got power back.   Do I get a tax break for my ancestoral innocence?   This is one of the stupid Democrat ideas.   Trying to outstupid the Republicans is a challenge they seem eager to take on.   

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22 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

I think this kind of statement should make individuals qualify to become "perpetual donors" to the fund. The program should reward those escaping their racial stereotypes and overt racism with economic benefits.

Fully tongue in cheek. 

But seriously, Jeff, statements like this show that you'd only resent any solution imposed upon you by the gubmint. Congratulations for making the survey only modestly offensive.

For you to think that slavery was only impactful 300-400 years ago is a statement of such blinding stupidity that it's unfair to expect any progress from you on the issue. If slavery ended, and men became equal at the end of the war against secession, this conversation wouldn't have to occur.

The question of "who gets reparations" is a good one.

So sons of union soldiers should get reparations from the secession of the south?

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Just get Joe Trudeau to issue a formal apology to them.

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Wait, what? Geeze I thought reparations was about paying former slave owning families for the loss of "property" due to emancipation.

Tongue in cheek of course but an equally stupid idea.

What really bothers me is that some slimy politicians are using this as a means to buy votes and know damn well that anyone against reparations will be forever labeled a racist...… true or not.

Ugly, very ugly.

Most revealing thing about this thread is to learn JB is a Jesuit.

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Now, instead of picking on the Negros... how about the Chinese? Mr. Stanford exploited them for his railway and his bastion of liberalism University? Do they deserve reparations? When he used them to make his money and racistly railed against them for political power?

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1 hour ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

You are forgetting the Japanese we put in interment camps. 

You're talking about the ones that were buried?

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Money pays for all evil..:rolleyes:

I'd be open to paying any living children or grandchilden of slaves just compensation for stolen wages. (i'm including our indigenous people in this they were de facto slaves..paid only in rations)

I think it's fair to say two generations are directly impacted by the economic wellbeing of their parents or grand parents.(otherwise, why do so many people leave their money to their kids or grandkids.?)

But there's no "deal" involved..Money won't ever compensate for the "butt hurt" as Jeff so delicately puts it.

 

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2 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

Wait, what? Geeze I thought reparations was about paying former slave owning families for the loss of "property" due to emancipation.

Tongue in cheek of course but an equally stupid idea.

What really bothers me is that some slimy politicians are using this as a means to buy votes and know damn well that anyone against reparations will be forever labeled a racist...… true or not.

Ugly, very ugly.

Most revealing thing about this thread is to learn JB is a Jesuit.

Seriously ... If you are not used to them calling you a racist yet you never will be. 

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27 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Money pays for all evil..:rolleyes:

I'd be open to paying any living children or grandchilden of slaves just compensation for stolen wages. (i'm including our indigenous people in this they were de facto slaves..paid only in rations)

God, you're ignorant.

Agreed, they were paid in rations but the point you miss probably because you never knew it, was - the *whole tribe* was paid in rations, not just the workers. And they were only needed for musters et al which were almost always organised around the tribal ceremonial life.

The wonderful union movement took the squatters to court insisting that they pay full adult wages the same as white men were getting, in the full knowledge that the property owners couldn't pay that.Pretty sure it was the AWU in fact. End result, the lease holders stopped employing & feeding the tribes resident on their leases, in some cases pushed them off, thereby breaking the connection to the land.

The result of *that* was a lot of land claims failed that should have succeeded when eventually we got to regognising land claims.

All thanks to the union movement at least as much as the property owners.

FKT

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2 hours ago, phillysailor said:

I think this kind of statement should make individuals qualify to become "perpetual donors" to the fund. The program should reward those escaping their racial stereotypes and overt racism with economic benefits.

Fully tongue in cheek. 

But seriously, Jeff, statements like this show that you'd only resent any solution imposed upon you by the gubmint. Congratulations for making the survey only modestly offensive.

For you to think that slavery was only impactful 300-400 years ago is a statement of such blinding stupidity that it's unfair to expect any progress from you on the issue. If slavery ended, and men became equal at the end of the war against secession, this conversation wouldn't have to occur.

The question of "who gets reparations" is a good one.

Blood test?  Payments indexed on DNA %?  What, barcode tattoos on our wrists?  Implants?

oh dear, what could go wrong?

One time  payment? Tax credit over time?  People are going to feel special immediately!

 

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No reparations. Money won't solve this problem, because there are still lots of Americans who actually believe that our country is now largely non-racist.

We can't do anything about personal racism, other than wait it out. But institutional racism, that's a tractable problem, we can solve that problem ... we can find a way to stop imprisoning so many Black men, we can find a way to prevent so many unarmed Black people from being shot by otherwise well-meaning cops. We can find ways to bring wealth and equity to ghettos and rural enclaves, and we can find a way to bring health to people in poverty. We can find a way to stop criminalizing the act of being a Latino, and we can solve the problem of widespread unemployment with Black people, two time the national average. 

Those who are discriminated against don't need handouts, they need a more even playing field so they can succeed. Because the single most offensive idea I've seen are all these middle-class and upper-class people who actually believe that they are where they are because of their own work ethic and bootstraps.

 

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12 minutes ago, mikewof said:

No reparations. Money won't solve this problem, because there are still lots of Americans who actually believe that our country is now largely non-racist.

We can't do anything about personal racism, other than wait it out. But institutional racism, that's a tractable problem, we can solve that problem ... we can find a way to stop imprisoning so many Black men, we can find a way to prevent so many unarmed Black people from being shot by otherwise well-meaning cops. We can find ways to bring wealth and equity to ghettos and rural enclaves, and we can find a way to bring health to people in poverty. We can find a way to stop criminalizing the act of being a Latino, and we can solve the problem of widespread unemployment with Black people, two time the national average. 

Those who are discriminated against don't need handouts, they need a more even playing field so they can succeed. Because the single most offensive idea I've seen are all these middle-class and upper-class people who actually believe that they are where they are because of their own work ethic and bootstraps.

 

Rational thought will not help you here.  The 2 extremes have done a mind meld, and the rational center will not hold.  So the answer won’t be anything except the theater....

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I’m ok with reparations or no, to me the debate is what brings the country forward.

The fact is, nothing sharpens the mind like having skin in the game.  If you realized that backwards attitudes and acceptably camouflaged racist policies were causing you to lose money, you’d cut that shit out right quick.

As it is, whites are fully able to enjoy institutionalized racism while claiming their being blind to racism. If you can ignore climate change, the degradation of our democracy by Trump Inc, the politicization of all aspects of our federal government, then ignoring statistics which demonstrate the underlying racism in America is easy. 

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4 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

My take is we should definitely pay reparations to descendants of black slaves from Africa.  We could then finally end the butthurt from 400 years ago and move on to a colorblind society finally where everyone succeeds or fails based on their own individual effort and such.  Even though I don't feel like I had any hand in slavery or perpetuating the racism from Jim Crow, or holding a black man down and the like.... I'm willing to do my part to get past this and move on.  So how much do I need to write the check for?  What will it take to move past this current phase?

And yes, I get that the pendulum needs to swing well into the other direction before anyone is willing to take a deep breath and step back from the precipice so they can feel they got a little revenge on the man.  

 

Jeff, be honest, this is a kill zone, and you know it.

So what the fuck are you really doing?

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How do we make the native Americans pay for enslaving each other for hundreds of years before Europeans even arrived?

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Another question is how do we make African slave owners pay for enslaving other Africans?

 

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I don't see how we can lift blacks out of poverty while ignoring all the other impoverished citizens in America. Let's lift them all out of poverty, that sound byte could gain traction and work for everyone in need. 

If we elect a Democratic majority in 2020 we can make Bill and jzk pay for all of it.

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28 minutes ago, Troglodytarum said:

tumblr_pptz1dKc5Z1y5xcxlo1_1280.jpg

Now the right wants to watch? :blink:

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15 minutes ago, J28 said:

Another question is how do we make African slave owners pay for enslaving other Africans?

 

Only if it’s in their economic interest!  

-jzk

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1 hour ago, Amati said:

Jeff, be honest, this is a kill zone, and you know it.

So what the fuck are you really doing?

Just read his post. A lot - maybe ALL - of the USA right would be plenty willing to write a one-time check to every Black they can find *if it meant the end of Affirmative Action, voting rights laws, minority set asides, or pretty much anything that happened post WW II regarding race*.  I think the theory would be "We gave you your check, now GTFO if you don't like eating at the colored counter".
Come to think of it, I bet a very good portion of what you would think of as non-racist non-MAGA America would be like that - you got your check now fuck off and don't ever bother us again. Be very very careful of this reparations idea, it could cause incredible harm.

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34 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

I don't see how we can lift blacks out of poverty while ignoring all the other impoverished citizens in America. Let's lift them all out of poverty, that sound byte could gain traction and work for everyone in need. 

If we elect a Democratic majority in 2020 we can make Bill and jzk pay for all of it.

Can we really lift anyone out of poverty? Maybe we can start by just removing the financial incentive that the wealthy have to keep poor people in poverty.

Your point is solid though ... racism has regularly been used effectively against poor whites. They end up in prison for nonsensical bullshit as well.

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Should US tax donkey pay reparations to the countries they destroyed during the regime change wars? 

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6 minutes ago, Rat's ass said:

Should US tax donkey pay reparations to the countries they destroyed during the regime change wars? 

No

If you must go to war, kill people, blow shit up, go home leaving a note "Don't fuck up and piss us off  again".

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1 hour ago, badlatitude said:

I don't see how we can lift blacks out of poverty while ignoring all the other impoverished citizens in America. Let's lift them all out of poverty, that sound byte could gain traction and work for everyone in need. 

If we elect a Democratic majority in 2020 we can make Bill and jzk pay for all of it.

I will be collecting my freedom dividend.

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4 minutes ago, jzk said:

I will be collecting my freedom dividend.

Oh snap!

Tearing America apart, one post at a time?  The only problem with that,  jzk, is that America loves you! ;)

 

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38 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Maybe we can start by just removing the financial incentive that the wealthy have to keep poor people in poverty.

What is this financial incentive, and how does one start cashing in on it?

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9 minutes ago, jzk said:

I will be collecting my freedom dividend.

Do you want fries with that?

 

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3 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Do you want fries with that?

 

FREEDOM fries, and Hunt’s ketchup?  Or is it Catsup?

This is important......

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6 minutes ago, jzk said:

What is this financial incentive, and how does one start cashing in on it?

See, mike?  I’m going to find a mirror in my own house, just to LOOK at a capitalist, and shout obscenities at whomever that might be!  

jzk?  Find a mirror and start kissing it!  Please?

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6 minutes ago, Amati said:

FREEDOM fries, and Hunt’s ketchup?  Or is it Catsup?

This is important......

HUNT's????

You some kind of republican?  HEINZ is the only way to Kerry on.

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48 minutes ago, Rat's ass said:

Should US tax donkey pay reparations to the countries they destroyed during the regime change wars? 

They do. A dead iraqi/afgani civilian is worth quite a bit.

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Reparations is not the correct word. Its compensation. 

Historical slavery should be recognized by the law and those that have been affected should be able to sue for compensation   The government could be the insurer and pay outs should be capped.

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Question,

If an “African” American  person is found to be half African and half white, should they still get reparations or does the whole being half white thing cancel the being  half slave thing out?

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Sea warrior said:

Question,

If an “African” American  person is found to be half African and half white, should they still get reparations or does the whole being half white thing cancel the being  half slave thing out?

 

 

See #18 above....  

1100011000001101111101 = $$$?

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This is utterly unworkable.

First off, who pays? Holland? England? Spain? France? Slavery in the Americas was a *European* invention, Indians enslaving other Indians notwithstanding. (did they do that??) What about the African tribes that made big money selling slaves to be exported? Do they get to pay up? No way would a few white people off a boat be able to run around Africa grabbing people. Forgetting all that, would it be the USA current federal government or the states that comprised the CSA? Why should northern states that never had slavery and sent their sons to die in the war to free the slaves pay?

Now who collects? Would you have to prove your ancestors really were slaves or just have dark skin? How African would you have to be? 50%? 25% One Drop Rule? Would a Nigerian that moved in last week be eligible? What about Irish slaves/indentured servants that ran away from brutal conditions and hid out in the mountains? Their descendants are pretty poor today. Do they get a cut?

 

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15 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

This is utterly unworkable.

First off, who pays? Holland? England? Spain? France? Slavery in the Americas was a *European* invention, Indians enslaving other Indians notwithstanding. (did they do that??) What about the African tribes that made big money selling slaves to be exported? Do they get to pay up? No way would a few white people off a boat be able to run around Africa grabbing people. Forgetting all that, would it be the USA current federal government or the states that comprised the CSA? Why should northern states that never had slavery and sent their sons to die in the war to free the slaves pay?

Now who collects? Would you have to prove your ancestors really were slaves or just have dark skin? How African would you have to be? 50%? 25% One Drop Rule? Would a Nigerian that moved in last week be eligible? What about Irish slaves/indentured servants that ran away from brutal conditions and hid out in the mountains? Their descendants are pretty poor today. Do they get a cut?

 

Here’s some info on ancestry, in a system already established

http://genetics.ncai.org/tribal-enrollment-and-genetic-testing.cfm

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7 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

It was the big topic on PBS Newshour and other mainstream news.  

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/point-taken/should-us-pay-reparations-black-americans/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/12/us/georgetown-reparations.html

All started by a Georgetown University (my alma mater) student vote on paying slave descendant's reparations.  

Now it seems it's become a litmus test for democRATic candidates out on the campaign trail.  It's like ya'll really want Trump to win again in 2020.  

So where do you stand on this?  Good, bad or indifferent?

Another race thread? Really?

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3 minutes ago, Amati said:

Here’s some info on ancestry, in a system already established

http://genetics.ncai.org/tribal-enrollment-and-genetic-testing.cfm

Proving you are African and proving your ancestors were slaves are not the same thing. Does the Nigerian that moved in last week get a cut or not?

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7 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Proving you are African and proving your ancestors were slaves are not the same thing. Does the Nigerian that moved in last week get a cut or not?

Does an NA tribe have to accept an applicant?

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2 hours ago, jzk said:

What is this financial incentive, and how does one start cashing in on it?

If you want to exploit people in poverty, buy stock in credit card banks, or start a business in a place that gives people arrest records for minor infractions. You might also want to get into a business that employs lots of undocumented workers, and then call in an anonymous tip to ICE when you don't need their services anymore. Poor people tend not to have bank accounts due to the usury process of overdraft fees, even though the computers can simply disallow the debit. So buy stock in cash transfer services. Also sell nearly expired produce at inflated prices in urban food deserts.

There are many other ways to exploit those in poverty, these are just the tip of the iceberg. But in general, if you want to grow wealthy off of broken people, you'll need to first convince yourself that their poverty is their own fault, rather than due to economic and policy forces, along with a shortage of money and a shortage of economical choices in some areas.

Best of luck in your new endeavor.

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a whole raft of German companies have paid reparations (in the tens of billions) 

for profiting from Nazi slave labor a long time ago . .  

Are you for that and against slavery reparations ? Why. what is the difference ? 

(Slavery reparations, to my understanding, will go to community building - not to individuals) 

 

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25 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

(Slavery reparations, to my understanding, will go to community building - not to individuals) 

So slavery "reparations" will go to communities based on skin color ratio?  

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3 minutes ago, silent bob said:

Buy them a one way ticket back to their Mother Land.

Already tried.  Terrible results....

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13 hours ago, phillysailor said:
15 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

We could then finally end the butthurt from 400 years ago and move on to a colorblind society finally where everyone succeeds or fails based on their own individual effort and such. 

I think this kind of statement should make individuals qualify to become "perpetual donors" to the fund. The program should reward those escaping their racial stereotypes and overt racism with economic benefits.

Fully tongue in cheek. 

But seriously, Jeff, statements like this show that you'd only resent any solution imposed upon you by the gubmint. Congratulations for making the survey only modestly offensive.

For you to think that slavery was only impactful 300-400 years ago is a statement of such blinding stupidity that it's unfair to expect any progress from you on the issue. If slavery ended, and men became equal at the end of the war against secession, this conversation wouldn't have to occur.

The question of "who gets reparations" is a good one.

My statement was mostly tongue in cheek as well...  Lighten up, francine.  

And FTR, I am fully supportive of any solution that gets up past this racism we seem to find ourselves mired in.  Although, I would submit that the claims of racism are massively overblown by the current SJWs who need a rallying cry and a way to assuage their guilt.  And Just to be clear, I'm not in anyway suggesting that racism doesn't exist, and more in some pockets of the country than in others.  It certainly needs more discussion.  The biggest issue is there is no discussion currently.  It is Blacks and white-guilt SJWs preaching to the rest of society telling us how bad and evil the rest of us white folk are.  Nice way to shut down the conversation, btw.  

If you want to come up with a scheme to drive a deeper wedge between the races, destroy any semblance of improving race relations, slam the door shut on any conversation between the races - I cannot think of a better way to do this than with the concept of reparations to slaves.  Congrats on finding THE MOST divisive topic possible.  

If this becomes an issue and a litmus test for D presidential candidates - congrats for doing your absolute best to re-elect trump in 2020.  If you want to ensure another 4 years of this nightmare - this is definitely the way to ensure it happens.  Just saying.  

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9 hours ago, badlatitude said:

I don't see how we can lift blacks out of poverty while ignoring all the other impoverished citizens in America. Let's lift them all out of poverty, that sound byte could gain traction and work for everyone in need. 

 

Well, there's a prominent black activist who disagrees with you.  From a PBS Newshour segment on Reparations from 2 days ago:

Quote

 

  • Yamiche Alcindor:

    Others argue policies that are not race-specific can't be called reparations. Again, Eva Paterson:

  • Eva Paterson:

    I think it is foolish to say that if we help all people, we will help African-Americans. If you look at any programs that have been instituted in our country, when you lump everybody in, white people get a leg up. It's just the way it is. It doesn't mean they're evil. The system is set up to privilege and favor white people.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/what-2020-democrats-think-about-reparations

 

 

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7 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Another race thread? Really?

Yes, really!  If this discussion makes you uncomfortable, remember that reading my posts is completely voluntary......

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7 hours ago, mikewof said:

If you want to exploit people in poverty, buy stock in credit card banks, or start a business in a place that gives people arrest records for minor infractions. You might also want to get into a business that employs lots of undocumented workers, and then call in an anonymous tip to ICE when you don't need their services anymore. Poor people tend not to have bank accounts due to the usury process of overdraft fees, even though the computers can simply disallow the debit. So buy stock in cash transfer services. Also sell nearly expired produce at inflated prices in urban food deserts.

There are many other ways to exploit those in poverty, these are just the tip of the iceberg. But in general, if you want to grow wealthy off of broken people, you'll need to first convince yourself that their poverty is their own fault, rather than due to economic and policy forces, along with a shortage of money and a shortage of economical choices in some areas.

Best of luck in your new endeavor.

+1

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7 hours ago, mikewof said:

If you want to exploit people in poverty, buy stock in credit card banks, or start a business in a place that gives people arrest records for minor infractions. You might also want to get into a business that employs lots of undocumented workers, and then call in an anonymous tip to ICE when you don't need their services anymore. Poor people tend not to have bank accounts due to the usury process of overdraft fees, even though the computers can simply disallow the debit. So buy stock in cash transfer services. Also sell nearly expired produce at inflated prices in urban food deserts.

There are many other ways to exploit those in poverty, these are just the tip of the iceberg. But in general, if you want to grow wealthy off of broken people, you'll need to first convince yourself that their poverty is their own fault, rather than due to economic and policy forces, along with a shortage of money and a shortage of economical choices in some areas.

Best of luck in your new endeavor.

Hiring poor people is hardly "exploiting" them.

The payday loan industry, I will agree, is troubling.  I had an employee once that came to me and asked me for advice.  He had gotten into a 525% interest payday loan.  At that time, I honestly didn't even know that was possible.  I paid the loan for him, and then had him pay me back out of his pay.  A payday loan is about the most stupid thing anyone can get.  No matter how poor you are, how desperate, a payday loan is only going to make things worse. 

So, do we allow people the "freedom" to be stupid?  

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11 minutes ago, jzk said:

Hiring poor people is hardly "exploiting" them.

The payday loan industry, I will agree, is troubling.  I had an employee once that came to me and asked me for advice.  He had gotten into a 525% interest payday loan.  At that time, I honestly didn't even know that was possible.  I paid the loan for him, and then had him pay me back out of his pay.  A payday loan is about the most stupid thing anyone can get.  No matter how poor you are, how desperate, a payday loan is only going to make things worse. 

So, do we allow people the "freedom" to be stupid?  

Do we allow people "freedom" to lie, steal, and cheat?

Honesty, do you righties EVER see any side of any question, other than blaming the victim?

-DSK

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Do we allow people "freedom" to lie, steal, and cheat?

Honesty, do you righties EVER see any side of any question, other than blaming the victim?

-DSK

Can your brain see the difference between stealing from someone and offering them a voluntary deal that is bad for them?

With one scenario, I forceably take money way from someone.  In the other, they voluntarily give it to me.  To "save" them from the ability of making a bad deal requires that we take away their freedom.  Are they children?

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8 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Do we allow people "freedom" to lie, steal, and cheat?

Honesty, do you righties EVER see any side of any question, other than blaming the victim?

-DSK

Yes.  Do you lefties ever see any side of the equation other than being a victim?

 

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2 minutes ago, Saorsa said:
11 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Honesty, do you righties EVER see any side of any question, other than blaming the victim?

 

Yes.  Do you lefties ever see any side of the equation other than being a victim?

 

OK, good

Name one

-DSK

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7 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

a whole raft of German companies have paid reparations (in the tens of billions) 

for profiting from Nazi slave labor a long time ago . .  

Are you for that and against slavery reparations ? Why. what is the difference ? 

(Slavery reparations, to my understanding, will go to community building - not to individuals) 

 

I have met holocaust survivors. They are/were actual living people, not 150 years later *maybe* descendants.

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6 hours ago, Amati said:

Already tried.  Terrible results....

One result was the returned slaves set themselves up as overlords over the locals causing strife that persists to this day :rolleyes:

Besides for that, the "motherland" is the USA for them at this point. If your ancestors were slaves, your family has been here longer than most.

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19 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Do we allow people "freedom" to lie, steal, and cheat?

Honesty, do you righties EVER see any side of any question, other than blaming the victim?

-DSK

This was how the USA was run in the 1800s. Do what you can get away with and never give a sucker an even break. If your dumb enough to take out a payday loan, I'm smart enough to give you one ;)

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17 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

OK, good

Name one

-DSK

People who take out payday loans.

People who take out student loans and then drop out before they learn to read a loan application.

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32 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:
8 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

a whole raft of German companies have paid reparations (in the tens of billions) 

for profiting from Nazi slave labor a long time ago . .  

Are you for that and against slavery reparations ? Why. what is the difference ? 

(Slavery reparations, to my understanding, will go to community building - not to individuals) 

 

I have met holocaust survivors. They are/were actual living people, not 150 years later *maybe* descendants.

The one point he's got is that some of the same institutions, the same companies, are around from the time when chattel slavery was US law; similar to German companies that used Nazi-enslaved workers.

IMHO the US gov't "paid reparations" by financing and running a major war to end slavery here. We already paid an astronomical price including over 300,000 lives.

The only further "reparations" I am willing to pay is to rebuild the US along the lines it tried to live up to, and came close to doing so, for many many years: land of opportunity, with liberty and justice for -ALL-

-DSK

 

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1 hour ago, jzk said:

Hiring poor people is hardly "exploiting" them.

The payday loan industry, I will agree, is troubling.  I had an employee once that came to me and asked me for advice.  He had gotten into a 525% interest payday loan.  At that time, I honestly didn't even know that was possible.  I paid the loan for him, and then had him pay me back out of his pay.  A payday loan is about the most stupid thing anyone can get.  No matter how poor you are, how desperate, a payday loan is only going to make things worse. 

So, do we allow people the "freedom" to be stupid?  

Hiring poor people is great. Hiring poor people without workplace protections is exploitive. Hiring them illegally and using ICE as a form of free Pinkerton service is exploitive.

The payday loan ... you apparently think they are "stupid" for using one. But why do you think they do it? Don't you think they would rather enjoy the luxury of a bank? Do you think they use those services because they are too "stupid" to know better?

Why do you think they use those?

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1 hour ago, jzk said:

To "save" them from the ability of making a bad deal requires that we take away their freedom.  Are they children?

People tend to make bad deals when they have no other choice, right? We collectively create protections when we can run money through it, and that tends to disproportionately benefit wealthier people.

Here's s non-financial example ... when you get pharmaceuticals, you are assured that the FDA signed off on the relative safety of them. So you pay for your copay of your doctor's appointment and your antidepressants, say it all comes to $50/month, on your salary of $5,000/month or 1/100 of your salary from your administrative job at Microsoft. In exchange, you are now able to pop a Paxil or a Zoloft and function reasonably well.

But if you are a 30 hour-per-week pizza chef at Pizza Hut, you don't have health insurance that is subsidized by the American taxpayers like the Microsoft job, so can't afford the psychiatrist and Zoloft that isn't subsidized by your fellow Americans. Yet clinical depression is a bitch, so you self medicate with malt liquor or maybe a nickel bag of Mexican pot that you bought downtown in a parking lot. If you do go the Zoloft route without the public subsidies that the Microsoft employee gets, then you're looking at about 1/2 of your monthly salary or even more.

The weed and booze might help in the short term, probably not in the long term. Then you get a public intoxication charge or a marijuana misdemeanor, and if you miss your court date, heaven help you, you are now living on the fringes of society because you have an arrest warrant out for you.

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3 hours ago, jzk said:

Can your brain see the difference between stealing from someone and offering them a voluntary deal that is bad for them?

With one scenario, I forceably take money way from someone.  In the other, they voluntarily give it to me.  To "save" them from the ability of making a bad deal requires that we take away their freedom.  Are they children?

Of course.

go a little farther, though- there is a scenario where people actually steal a human being.  That doesn’t really fit inside your neat Marxist duality (Or is it a Cartesian duality?<_<), even if it’s a binary matrix ^^^^^.  Carnagie was said to have had a copy of Das Kapital in his back pocket most of the time. So at the risk of helping the Devil,

https://www.amazon.com/Das-Kapital-Gateway-Skeptical-Reader/dp/089526711X

 

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3 hours ago, Saorsa said:

Yes.  Do you lefties ever see any side of the equation other than being a victim?

 

You’re actually making the argument that Trump is a leftie!

Neat!

:lol:

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

The one point he's got is that some of the same institutions, the same companies, are around from the time when chattel slavery was US law; similar to German companies that used Nazi-enslaved workers.

IMHO the US gov't "paid reparations" by financing and running a major war to end slavery here. We already paid an astronomical price including over 300,000 lives.

The only further "reparations" I am willing to pay is to rebuild the US along the lines it tried to live up to, and came close to doing so, for many many years: land of opportunity, with liberty and justice for -ALL-

-DSK

 

You racist fuck!  You mean you're not willing to give FOCs* their due compensation?  Why do you hate black people so much?  

*FOC = Folks of Color

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

IMHO the US gov't "paid reparations" by financing and running a major war to end slavery here. We already paid an astronomical price including over 300,000 lives.

Try doubling that figure - and then some.

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:
2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

IMHO the US gov't "paid reparations" by financing and running a major war to end slavery here. We already paid an astronomical price including over 300,000 lives.

Try doubling that figure - and then some.

I was talking about the ones fighting to END slavery....... :mellow:

The figure I recall from years of reading history is a bit over 300k soldiers KIA on the Union side, a bit under that for the Confederacy. I think that's been revised upward a bit lately.

-DSK

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For Democrats, all paths to the White House run through the House of Sharpton

https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-sharpton-democrats-presidential-20190404-story.html

I watched a montage of Sharpton "administering" a pledge to support reparations to the 2020 Democratic candidates at his NAN conference.  It was one of the most disgusting displays of pandering and ring-kissing I have every seen.  If Democrats think supporting reparations will help them appeal to moderate Democrats and independents, they're even more deluded than I thought.

 

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11 minutes ago, J28 said:

For Democrats, all paths to the White House run through the House of Sharpton

https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-sharpton-democrats-presidential-20190404-story.html

I watched a montage of Sharpton "administering" a pledge to support reparations to the 2020 Democratic candidates at his NAN conference.  It was one of the most disgusting displays of pandering and ring-kissing I have every seen.  If Democrats think supporting reparations will help them appeal to moderate Democrats and independents, they're even more deluded than I thought.

 

Discovering that the depths of your self proclaimed cynicism are but that of a tea saucer (measured in millimeters) should lead you to explore your own feelings of conservative romanticism, for the truth is, you, in particular, may never be cynical enough, even if it ruins your life, and the lives of those around you.  You must apply yourself to the task, with vigor, sir!  There is still a chance of success!

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3 hours ago, mikewof said:

Hiring poor people is great. Hiring poor people without workplace protections is exploitive. Hiring them illegally and using ICE as a form of free Pinkerton service is exploitive.

The payday loan ... you apparently think they are "stupid" for using one. But why do you think they do it? Don't you think they would rather enjoy the luxury of a bank? Do you think they use those services because they are too "stupid" to know better?

Why do you think they use those?

Can you provide an example of where getting a payday loan wouldn't be stupid?

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

You racist fuck!  You mean you're not willing to give FOCs* their due compensation?  Why do you hate black people so much?  

*FOC = Folks of Color

Race-baiter

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1 hour ago, jzk said:

Can you provide an example of where getting a payday loan wouldn't be stupid?

Getting a payday loan is always stupid. But sometimes it's unavoidably stupid.

Would you like to know why an intelligent person in poverty would be forced into a payday loan?

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Just now, mikewof said:

Getting a payday loan is always stupid. But sometimes it's unavoidably stupid.

Would you like to know why an intelligent person in poverty would be forced into a payday loan?

Forced at gunpoint?  Forced how?

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11 minutes ago, jzk said:

Forced at gunpoint?  Forced how?

Forced into it by the conditions of living in poverty.

Now you are supposed to say something like "your friend is in poverty because he took out a payday loan to buy a new clutch pack for his truck!"

Then I say "yeah, that's the point. When my truck breaks down and I don't have the money for parts, I can walk to the bus because I live in an area served by public buses, then I can go to a family member to borrow the money then I can fix the truck to do my job."

So now a question will pop into your head, but you won't write it here because it will demonstrate the point of this thread ... "why is my JZK Bank regulated to prevent this nonsense, but that payday loan outfit that charged my employee 300% mostly unregulated in my state?"

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Just now, mikewof said:

Forced into it by the conditions of living in poverty.

Now you are supposed to say something like "your friend is in poverty because he took out a payday loan to buy a new clutch pack for his truck!"

Then I say "yeah, that's the point. When my truck breaks down and I don't have the money for parts, I can walk to the bus because I live in an area served by public buses, then I can go to a family member to borrow the money then I can fix the truck to do my job."

So now, your question should be pop up into your head, but you won't write it here ... "why is my JZK Bank regulated to prevent this nonsense, but that payday loan outfit that charged my employee 300% mostly unregulated?"

If you regulated it, then you would eliminate it.  Then, they wouldn't be able to get the loan.  What would they do?  They would die because of their poverty?

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7 minutes ago, jzk said:

If you regulated it, then you would eliminate it.  Then, they wouldn't be able to get the loan.  What would they do?  They would die because of their poverty?

States that regulate their payday loan industry (it's worth billions of dollars btw) don't lose their payday loan industries. That's just some nonsense that you made up.

You're presenting a silly idea. You're suggesting that businesses that aren't legally allowed to financially rape their customers won't want to be in that business anymore. Except that actual banks stay in business even with heavy State oversight.

So now, you might ask ... "Then why don't poor people just go to the bank rather than the check cashing place? Why are these businesses even legal?"

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