Fakenews

Notre Dame is burning to the ground

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Notre FLAME

That's OK I'll post a link

 

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Well, while taking exception to the hyperbole of the thread title, this is a very sad sight.  Perhaps one of the 5 most famous buildings in the world and certainly the heart of Paris.

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4 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

Your the definition of an Ugly American..

That high grade Florida education is showing again Gator. 

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2 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Well, while taking exception to the hyperbole of the thread title, this is a very sad sight.  Perhaps one of the 5 most famous buildings in the world and certainly the heart of Paris.

I don’t think it’s hyberbole the roof has collapsed the spire is gone only the tower looks like it will stand.

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would firefighting aircraft help?  Just asking, don't know if its feasible nor if any nearby.

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awful

 

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If the stones fall down it will take some dedicated mofo's to put that thing back together. I hope they do it.

I literally climbed up on the part the hunchback did. First night in paris at 1am my wife and I sat outside and had a cointreau at a place as it was closing and looked at it. We also stayed on Ille St Louis a block away and walked by and around it many times. Very impressive piece of architecture regardless of religions etc.

It really ties the room together so to speak.

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Was just there last week.  There were thousands of people in and around the cathedral.  I can't imagine the chaos of such a horrible situation. 

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42 years ago for me.   I feel like crying.

 

We still have Notre Dame here in Jackson Square, beautiful but not the same...

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44 minutes ago, mad said:

That high grade Florida education is showing again Gator. 

Fuck the pa numnutts have invaded with their special form of stoopid. Did the nurse turn the lights off for their little circle.

 

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Undergoing $6.8 million EUR reno to the roof and spire.  Church spokesperson saying there will be nothing left of the 52 acres of wood in the framing and interior.  Reports are water drops are not possible.  

So sad.

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4 minutes ago, J28 said:

52 acres of wood 

An acre is an odd unit to measure wood.  

Tragedy all the same.  

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A terrible thing for sure. I am sure that they will rebuild it, might take 20 years and it won't be the same. You can't replace the actual history of a place like this.

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20 years since I was there. A massive loss. Report I saw says they are writing off everything but the frame and expect the lose the entire wood interior. Efforts to save artwork is the priority at the moment. 

Damn. 

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3 minutes ago, bugger said:

An acre is an odd unit to measure wood.  

Tragedy all the same.  

 

The cathedral contains one of the oldest surviving wood-timber frames in Paris, involving around 52 acres of treesthat were cut down in the 12th century. Each beam is made from an individual tree. For this reason, the lattice of historic woodwork is nicknamed "the Forest."

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1 hour ago, Fakenews said:

I don’t think it’s hyberbole the roof has collapsed the spire is gone only the tower looks like it will stand.

Sounds like that's on fire now too. 2 days from now would be the 1 year anniversary of me visiting it.

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7 minutes ago, austin1972 said:

Sounds like that's on fire now too. 2 days from now would be the 1 year anniversary of me visiting it.

Spire went down hours ago.. there is a fire in one of the two bell towers that is being fought, fortunately the bell towers are mostly masonry 

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4 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Spire went down hours ago.. there is a fire in one of the two bell towers that is being fought, fortunately the bell towers are mostly masonry 

Masonry walls.........bet that's frigging hot in there...........wonder if they've pulled out and gone defensive with exterior large caliber streams only. They must have been working interior for a while if they were trying to salvage art work and other treasures. Those frenchies are pretty good firefighters and I'm sure they've pre-planned this fire a million times.

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Actually it sounds like they didn’t have much of a plan from what I’ve heard so far.

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The first fire was reported to have been seen about 10 minutes after closing... the eye witness accounts will be interesting to hear, just where the fire was seen

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Its a sad day for humanity.   One of our few enduring achievements, lucky enough to survive world war, is now destroyed.   I didn't make it to Paris in time.  I can only imagine the beauty, based on Saint Stephens,  etc.   

1 minute ago, shaggy said:

Any idea how it started?  

It wasn't in Louisiana, so American bigots are likely not involved (hopefully).   

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9 minutes ago, J28 said:

Actually it sounds like they didn’t have much of a plan from what I’ve heard so far.

Hard to believe. Why do you think that?

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7 minutes ago, Lark said:

Its a sad day for humanity.   One of our few enduring achievements, lucky enough to survive world war, is now destroyed.   I didn't make it to Paris in time.  I can only imagine the beauty, based on Saint Stephens,  etc.   

It wasn't in Louisiana, so American bigots are likely not involved (hopefully).  

Congratulations for being the first.... at something :angry:

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They tried to save some of the artwork.  Ancient copper statues had been removed a short time ago because of the reno work.

Reports are firefighters first on scene didn’t know what to do.  It didn’t appear like the fire hose were able to put water onto the fire from outside the walls.

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24 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Masonry walls.........bet that's frigging hot in there...........wonder if they've pulled out and gone defensive with exterior large caliber streams only. They must have been working interior for a while if they were trying to salvage art work and other treasures. Those frenchies are pretty good firefighters and I'm sure they've pre-planned this fire a million times.

That’s exactly what it looks like they’re doing.  Great cascades of water on the walls.  Worry is that the bell will fall and the tower with it.  It’s unbelievable to see.  I’ve there half a dozen times and each time in awe of the beauty and history of that place

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12 minutes ago, J28 said:

Actually it sounds like they didn’t have much of a plan from what I’ve heard so far.

Well you’re a moron so that accounts for what you heard.

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8 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Hard to believe. Why do you think that?

It did take 2 hours for a strong presence of fire fighters to be seen. TV talking heads have pointed this out and said contributing to the slow response were the large crowds in the streets... virtually all is speculation at this point 

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2 hours ago, nolatom said:

would firefighting aircraft help?  Just asking, don't know if its feasible nor if any nearby.

That’s what Trump suggested, so you know the answer

Actually, only precision helo drops if there was the danger of fire spreading to nearby buildings, but it doesn’t seem to be the case

 

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47 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Gone forever ... impossible to replace... hundreds of years old craftsmanship lost 

Bullshit.

All the skills needed to rebuild it are still available.

That's just more of the "lost art" bullshit that comes up whenever the subject of a formerly commonplace, now rare work skill comes up.

Like wooden boat building or automotive panel beating or stone carving or stained glass making etc. etc. etc.

It will be rebuilt. The real loss is the contents - many of them are irreplaceable.

What I can't understand is why there was (apparently) no fire suppression system IN the place.

Glad I saw it long ago - this is indeed a huge tragedy for the entire world.

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3 minutes ago, J28 said:

They tried to save some of the artwork.  Ancient copper statues had been removed a short time ago because of the reno work.

Reports are firefighters first on scene didn’t know what to do.  It didn’t appear like the fire hose were able to put water onto the fire from outside the walls.

I really find it hard to believe they didn’t know what to do. Sometimes things go on that are not seen. They certainly could not have reached the upper portions with exterior hose streams, and I don’t know much about the details of the construction but those old churches have lots of spaces that are really tough to access from the inside as well. It’s possible that given the location and volume of fire on arrival, they would focus solely on evacuation/search and salvage of treasures. 

It’ll be interesting to hear how it went.

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The damage of air drops before the roof collapsed did rule that tactic out as we’ll as getting such resource on scene in time ... that said the roof went very early and after that was gone the help water drops would have been the best choice for getting water onto the fire

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3 minutes ago, austin1972 said:

Not if you were just scurrying to get the paintings out.

You do realize scurrying into the floor with burning heavy roof timber  falling from great height all about... sounds like a good idea... when in practice not so much 

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Surround and drown. Very sad loss. 

 

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16 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Bullshit.

All the skills needed to rebuild it are still available.

That's just more of the "lost art" bullshit that comes up whenever the subject of a formerly commonplace, now rare work skill comes up.

Like wooden boat building or automotive panel beating or stone carving or stained glass making etc. etc. etc.

It will be rebuilt. The real loss is the contents - many of them are irreplaceable.

What I can't understand is why there was (apparently) no fire suppression system IN the place.

Glad I saw it long ago - this is indeed a huge tragedy for the entire world.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pariss-notre-cathedral-is-on-fire/2019/04/15/c487906e-5fa1-11e9-bf24-db4b9fb62aa2_story.html?utm_term=.aa2bb65e0cae

“It’s not just the medieval features,” tweeted Kate Wiles, a scholar at Kings’ College London. “It's a palimpsest of work and rework, and building and rebuilding, and we've lost all those layers. It's not just the 'original' masterpiece we're losing, but the culmination of some 900 years of history, which can't just be rebuilt.” 

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23 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

You do realize scurrying into the floor with burning heavy roof timber  falling from great height all about... sounds like a good idea... when in practice not so much 

Probably why they did it when heavy timber wasn’t falling from great height....

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I assume the French have surrendered to the fire?

 

I think it's tragic and fully expect to go to hell.

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Watched a CNN report. Very moving to hear the crowd gathered spontaneously singing hymns in sorrow. Very genuine human moment. 

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Sad to see this...  glad I had the means and opportunity to take my son to the top when we visited there a while back.  

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39 minutes ago, weightless said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pariss-notre-cathedral-is-on-fire/2019/04/15/c487906e-5fa1-11e9-bf24-db4b9fb62aa2_story.html?utm_term=.aa2bb65e0cae

“It’s not just the medieval features,” tweeted Kate Wiles, a scholar at Kings’ College London. “It's a palimpsest of work and rework, and building and rebuilding, and we've lost all those layers. It's not just the 'original' masterpiece we're losing, but the culmination of some 900 years of history, which can't just be rebuilt.” 

“It's a palimpsest of work and rework, and building and rebuilding, and we've lost all those layers.

Which is of interest only to historical scholars.

And to people who uses words like Palimpsest.

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7 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

Sad to see this...  glad I had the means and opportunity to take my son to the top when we visited there a while back.  

Hard for me not to feel a bit crushed....it was on my list.....now it’s too late. 

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Impossible to process this :(

I doubt they'll attempt a rebuild. You can't replicate the smell and atmosphere or the emotional attachment to this Icon.

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And now other places shall be destroyed by Fire Suppression Modifications 

 

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To borrow from a classic work.....perhaps “Tom the Builder” will help rebuild......I can’t help but recall the chapters on the burning of the cathedral and Prior Phillips efforts to save the precious bones of Saint...somebody or other, I can’t recall......

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Just now, Shortforbob said:

Impossible to process this :(

I doubt they'll attempt a rebuild. You can't replicate the smell and atmosphere or the emotional attachment to this Icon.

Disney is going to build the replica 

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Just now, Shortforbob said:

Impossible to process this :(

I doubt they'll attempt a rebuild. You can't replicate the smell and atmosphere or the emotional attachment to this Icon.

Of course they will.

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Not clear that rebuilding is the best goal for an 800 year old historical landmark. Rebuilding a functioning church on the site for the congregation is a different goal. NYC didn't rebuild the twin towers. 

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The French do amazing replicas, (lascaux) but this?

It would be pointless...There are many many beautiful buildings of this vintage and older across the world. What would be the point of spending unimaginable billions to create a hollow replica of just one of them. Let Notre Dame RIP. 

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12 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Impossible to process this :(

I doubt they'll attempt a rebuild. You can't replicate the smell and atmosphere or the emotional attachment to this Icon.

I don’t recall a particular smell but maybe they can have special air freshener made to fix that.

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2 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

The French do amazing replicas, (lascaux) but this?

It would be pointless...There are many many beautiful buildings of this vintage and older across the world. What would be the point of spending unimaginable billions to create a hollow replica of just one of them. Let Notre Dame RIP. :)

Between Notre Dame and Sacré-Cœur Basilica...  The basilica wins in my book...  but still a very sad day with the loss of Notre Dame

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Just now, Fakenews said:

I don’t recall a particular smell but maybe they can have special air freshener made to fix that.

You probably didn't notice..all these old Cathedrals have a smell..of ancient stone, incense, old clothes, people, damp and dust

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1 minute ago, nacradriver said:

Between Notre Dame and Sacré-Cœur Basilica...  The basilica wins in my book...  but still a very sad day with the loss of Notre Dame

There's still Sainte-Chapelle on the Isle de la Cite. a jewel box of a cathedral..

 

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7 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

I don’t recall a particular smell but maybe they can have special air freshener made to fix that.

Maybe because you were too busy enjoying and smelling your own farts..

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3 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

There's still Sainte-Chapelle on the Isle de la Cite. a jewel box of a cathedral..

 

There are a ton of old churches through out Europe... as my wife says   "ABC  another bloody church, but each has it's own personality and charm.."

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6 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

There are a ton of old churches through out Europe... as my wife's says   "ABC  another bloody church, but each has it's own personality and charm.."

Of course...I have to confess though..I can't remember any particular feature of the interior of Notre Dame..Chartres, Salisbury, Notre Dame de Reims... they tend to blur a bit

image.jpeg.40abc501a144f9a315ba2790cc3e028a.jpeg

Everyone has a different memory or reason for mourning things of wood and stone..It's a sad Day for the people of Paris though.

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12 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

There's still Sainte-Chapelle on the Isle de la Cite. a jewel box of a cathedral..

 

We saw a wonderful  performance there...

Eurpoe Kit larry 021.JPG

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There have been many ongoing projects to do hi res laser scans of relics like Notre Dame. I watched an excellent account of the preservation work done in this manner in Constantinople showing the Sofia Hagia a couple of weeks ago and the technology has come a long way in the past few years.

 

This guy, Andrew Tallon seems to be on the forefront of such work, this is the National Cathedral in the US though.

 

This is a hand held 3d camera look by Andrew of Notre Dame  Paris.

Anyone with a IPad can do point cloud scans these days. This is of the Notre Dame in Montreal.

http://www.builditsoftware.com/2015/11/photogrammetry-in-cultural-heritage-experiments-with-a-cloud-based-service-and-an-ipad/

 

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Italian experts - and we have accumulated experience in church fires over the centuries - are saying that unfortunately the thread title may be apt, and Notre Dame a total loss. This because marble exposed to very high temperatures undergoes calcination - so columns still standing after the fire has been put out probably will have little residual bearing strength

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The mayor says that the "structure" seems to have survived.  I believe that they will rebuild.  Notre Dame is so iconic, that it would be to culturally painful to have it left as an accidental ruin hovering over the Seine and haunting the city, memorializing carelessness.   

Two quotes that are relevant:

Paris fire brigade chief Jean-Claude Gallet told reporters outside the cathedral: "We can consider that the main structure of Notre-Dame has been saved and preserved."

Speaking outside the cathedral Emmanuel Macron, the French president, said it would be rebuilt and he would seek international help to do so. He said: "We will  rebuild." 

It may take 50 years, however.  The current (disastrous) restoration was planned to take 25 years.  

Some marble in the interior, but mostly granite, IIRC.  The mortar will likely be fire damaged, and if so, the walls may be able to be strong backed or reinforced on the interior.  

The windows can be replaced, but not with 12th - 15th century glass.  But they are well documented.  

 

.

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Yay, looks like the main structures been saved!!

I had an Idea that the spire was a later addition anyway..so all may not be lost...of course it may have to come down anyway prolly unsafe.

 

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3 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

The mayor says that the "structure" seems to have survived.  I believe that they will rebuild.  Notre Dame is so iconic, that it would be to culturally painful to have it left as an accidental ruin hovering over the Seine and haunting the city, memorializing carelessness.   

It may take 50 years, however.  The current (disastrous) restoration was planned to take 25 years. 

These guys have plenty of experience with this... there were structures in the major German cities that I have seen where it was very hard to tell the new from old.  As good as the Norden bomb-sight was at the time, it was really not that precise..  let alone what the Russian's stripped and sent back to Mother Russia

 

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7 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Yay, looks like the main structures been saved!!

I had an Idea that the spire was a later addition anyway..so all may not be lost...of course it may have to come down anyway prolly unsafe.

 

I hope so but just because they are still standing does not mean they are structurally sound, the walls are basically stacked stone supported on the outside with the flying buttresses and supported on the inside by the now missing vaulted  cathedral  ceilings...the two bell towers seem to have had the least damage 

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Emmanuel Macron: 'We will rebuild Notre-Dame'

Speaking outside the ravaged cathedral Mr Macron thanked the "extreme courage and professionalism" of the more than 500 firefighters who battled the flames

He said: "Notre-Dame is our history, our literature. It is the epicentre of our life, it is the gold standard. It is so many books, paintings. It is the cathedral of all the French people even those who have never visited. This is our history.

"We will put out an appeal for the greatest talents and we will rebuild Notre-Dame because that is what the French people expect, because that is what our history deserves, because that is our profound destiny"

He announced the launch of a national fundraising efforts to this end.

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Ahah, the spire was built of wood in the 19c..a replacement for the 13c original..maybe it looks worse than it is.

The Cathedral's flèche or spire, which was destroyed in the April 2019 fire,[23] was located over the transept and altar. The original spire was constructed in the 13th century, probably between 1220 and 1230. It was battered, weakened and bent by the wind over five centuries, and finally was removed in 1786. During the 19th century restoration, Eugène Viollet-le-Duc decided to recreate it, making a new version of oak covered with lead. The entire spire weighed 750 tons.

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I am crushed. Today we are all Parisians.

By an extraordinary twist of fate, my daughter and wife are in Paris sightseeing today, and took this picture.

 

I've fought a fire in a church before, and it was, in retrospect, a terrifying fire for the department.

Not only were slate shingles exploding and sliding down the roof of the rectory to smash three stories below, but the fire quickly extended along space between the roof of the the church and the ceiling of the church, without any external signs. I was one of two teams which had made entry through the front of the church and had just reached the seat of the fire in the rectory behind the sanctuary when the safety officer pulled us all out, telling us to leave the hoses. We were all really frustrated and pissed off, wondering wtf? We were just about to save the church we thought! But the hoses had gone limp, so we had no choice.

After exiting out the side we saw fire coming from the front of the church, from under the eaves. About ten minutes later the ceiling fell, and the roof fell pretty much at the same time, right on our hoses. We kinda looked at the SO in a new light after that.

There was an old wooden building in the center of the local college campus, five stories tall. The plan of attack was to signal four alarms and buy marshmallows. After making a bonafide attempt to rescue anyone who needed it, surround and drown was the only safe thing to do.

Notre Dame 4:15.19.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Ahah, the spire was built of wood in the 19c..a replacement for the 13c original..maybe it looks worse than it is.

The Cathedral's flèche or spire, which was destroyed in the April 2019 fire,[23] was located over the transept and altar. The original spire was constructed in the 13th century, probably between 1220 and 1230. It was battered, weakened and bent by the wind over five centuries, and finally was removed in 1786. During the 19th century restoration, Eugène Viollet-le-Duc decided to recreate it, making a new version of oak covered with lead. The entire spire weighed 750 tons.

Unfortunately, that massive structure thing falling and casting burning embers and fuel throughout the structure is as good as napalm. The relics, paintings and lead stained glass windows are fragile, and their destruction will be total. A friend of mine wondered if they had a disaster plan, a cadre of people whose only job would be to grab a sacred or priceless item before evacuating.

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I found a French firm that specializes in scanning and preservation that hopefully was contracted to do a full scan of Notre Dame before the renovation work was begun. This is a screengrab from their website that is a point cloud scan with actual color captured to each of millions of individual points.

image.thumb.png.7c543ac7b66e569a839921623c5c0143.png

 

Same outfit same technique on Mont-St-Michael.

 

The Hunchback approves!

Image result for hunchback of notre dame

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As I reflect, I am reminded of one of my favorite quotes attributed to Edward Croker, Chief of the Department FDNY circa 1910 and my heart aches for my French Brothers and Sisters engaged in the firefight knowing how important this must be to them and how hard it must be to see it lost.

 

Quote

“I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a firefighter The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we who know the work which the firefighter has to do believe that his is a noble calling. There is an adage which says that, "Nothing can be destroyed except by fire." We strive to preserve from destruction the wealth of the world which is the product of the industry of men, necessary for the comfort of both the rich and the poor. We are defenders from fires of the art which has beautified the world, the product of the genius of men and the means of refinement of mankind. But, above all; our proudest endeavor is to save lives of men-the work of God Himself. Under the impulse of such thoughts, the nobility of the occupation thrills us and stimulates us to deeds of daring, even at the supreme sacrifice. Such considerations may not strike the average mind, but they are sufficient to fill to the limit our ambition in life and to make us serve the general purpose of human society.”

 

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44 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

Unfortunately, that massive structure thing falling and casting burning embers and fuel throughout the structure is as good as napalm. The relics, paintings and lead stained glass windows are fragile, and their destruction will be total. A friend of mine wondered if they had a disaster plan, a cadre of people whose only job would be to grab a sacred or priceless item before evacuating.

You might wait for the news to catch up with your speculation:

From Bloomberg

"But Mayor Anne Hidalgo said late Monday that firefighters were optimistic they could keep the towers that bookend the famous cathedral from going up in flames.

The fire chief in Paris went even further, saying his crews managed to stop the flames from reaching the belfry and prevented a catastrophic collapse.

Gallet says one firefighter was injured.

Hildago says the significant collection art work and holy objects kept inside the church has been recovered."

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