Fakenews

Notre Dame is burning to the ground

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16 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Totally agree with Ed’s post. The last time I was in Paris - and it was in relativeLy low-season November - the queue to get into Notre Dame was snaking all over the square, with a waiting period of 2-3 hrs. Skipped that, of course

But the epitome of bucket-list tourism is without a doubt the Mona Lisa room in the Louvre: crammed with chinese tourists, an orgy of selfies, impossible and senseless getting within five rows of the picture

Yes impossible savor ...find a moment when you can stand back and take in the art and some fool walks up right in front of your face....it is too much for me....South America is on my bucket list before it too is crushed by tourism

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2 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Nice. When York Minster went up, 260 oaks were donated for the new roof.

easily! big beam wood structure consume lots of big, old, trees. looking at the pictures here for ND:

http://www.notredamedeparis.fr/en/la-cathedrale/architecture/la-charpente/

it appears you've got beams 13m long and .5m or so square? You don't get those from 100 year old oak; it doesn't grow fast enough. so many other places to put that wood these days. so many cool places in france that'll need renovation.

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11 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Yes impossible savor ...find a moment when you can stand back and take in the art and some fool walks up right in front of you face....it is too much for me....South America is on my bucket list before it too is crushed by tourism

I love impressionist art and I went to the Musee D'orsay to see some of the best around.  The Van Gogh room was completely crowded with people of course and I doubt many of them had bathed recently.  It almost made me sick and I had to leave without really getting to appreciate the art because the smell was so bad.  Fucking tourists could at least bathe now and then.

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5 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

I love impressionist art and I went to the Musee D'orsay to see some of the best around.  The Van Gogh room was completely crowded with people of course and I doubt many of them had bathed recently.  It almost made me sick and I had to leave without really getting to appreciate the art because the smell was so bad.  Fucking tourists could at least bathe now and then.

I would pay a premium to go at night with a controlled crowd size...pretty much the same all over Paris...the crowds don't seem to bother my wife...I simply can not relax and enjoy any of it and get pissed off by the days end

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58 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Yes impossible savor ...find a moment when you can stand back and take in the art and some fool walks up right in front of your face....it is too much for me....South America is on my bucket list before it too is crushed by tourism

What makes you think South America, at least the famous bits, aren't crushed by tourism? Best you can do is visit in the off season or at least shoulder season. We went o Machu Picchu in the least visited season and it still was pretty busy. A few months ago we went to Iguazu Falls and there were many, many people. A good option is to spend most of your time in not famous bits, there are still lots of those that are worth visiting.

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23 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Modern materials???? That would be worse than just letting it sit as-is. I am sure it will be rebuilt with stone or what would be the point? Note that the original construction has lasted nearly 1,000 years. There was nothing wrong with the materials or engineering of the original.

I imagine that new wood used will have fire retardants and a sprinkler system. There was a news report here (Toronto) about our Anglican cathedral having three fires over almost 200 years. Damage in the last one was quite minor due to a sprinkler system that had been fitted during a renovation.

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3 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

I don't ? I get that a number of wealthy people have come forward to rebuild this iconic structure with a total of pledges being north of a billion euros.

I also get that some people are enormously wealthy. That they run companies that market products that are widely sought after and command a high percentage of profit. Now personally I don't care for such luxury items and what not but at the same time don't behoove to condemn those that do. Why you give a crap about the ultra wealthy I do find curious, envy is an odd emotion I guess.

Anyhow, back to my point. I am glad we live in a world where wealthy individuals can and will step forward to rebuild the likes of Notre Dame. I applaud them for supporting such a cause.

I rest my case.

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42 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

A good option is to spend most of your time in not famous bits, there are still lots of those that are worth visiting.

That's the answer.  My first visits to Europe were to visit and stay with family.  My grandparents lived in a very nice part of Rome where there is nothing for tourists to see.  When I wanted to see the famous sights, In about 15 minutes walking, I could be in the middle of Rome and all of its glories.  Experiencing that at an early age taught me to appreciate how the locals live and where they eat, etc.  Since then, when I travel, I might catch some of the must see things but then I just like to wander down the side streets and investigate the out of the way things.  I have had some wonderful food and met some wonderful people that way.  In my younger days, walking 10 miles or more was no problem.  Unfortunately, I don't walk very well now and my wandering days are pretty much over. 

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1 hour ago, Ed Lada said:

I love impressionist art and I went to the Musee D'orsay to see some of the best around.  The Van Gogh room was completely crowded with people of course and I doubt many of them had bathed recently.  It almost made me sick and I had to leave without really getting to appreciate the art because the smell was so bad.  Fucking tourists could at least bathe now and then.

Actually, that was the locals. ;)

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Oh fuck, the pa crowd has taken over this thread bringing in their own special stoopid

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18 hours ago, Tax Man said:

How many take a neighbor down at the same time?  Buildings that old tend to be in clusters.

well the museum in brazil was a wake up call,  everyone just hit the snooze alarm..   those buildings are old as shit, you shouldn't be storing irreplaceable artwork in them.. Brazilian museum didn't even have a sprinkler system.

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3 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

I would like to present a different, dissenting view of the event in Paris,   blah, blah blah  .... there are too many tourists everywhere.       they suck

 

there fixed it for you..

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How about Buffing it out and put a retractable dome over the whole place

allowing those who saw it before to wait in line to see what happened 

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Thanks guys, especially Ed. I think I’ll give Paris a miss, or at least the major tourist spots. I’m done with going to places destroyed by tourism. 

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I’m struck by the paradox of the general view that “we” need to be a more informed, experienced, insightful citizens of the world and irritated that they’re out there “experiencing”. The reality is as travel becomes more accessible and easier, that is going to happen more. I sympathize with the notion that waiting for hours to see beautiful things as part of a herd is something I want no part of either. If I cannot find alternative times that make the experience enjoyable then I’d pass as well, but I think it’s usually possible to engineer it to a satisfactory experience. 

Everybody does the best they can.......mostly.

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2 hours ago, Xlot said:

Totally agree with Ed’s post. The last time I was in Paris - and it was in relatively low-season November - the queue to get into Notre Dame was snaking all over the square, with a waiting period of 2-3 hrs. Skipped that, of course

But the epitome of bucket-list tourism is without a doubt the Mona Lisa room in the Louvre: crammed with chinese tourists, an orgy of selfies, impossible and senseless getting within five rows of the picture

Huh...was there last November on a Monday.  Walked right into to Notre Dame at mid-day. Timing is everything I guess.

 

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Agree old churches are dime a dozen in Europe. You can pass one every few blocks in Rome.  In any other city they would be cultural and artistic attractions. IMHO St Peters is more remarkable for its immense size than its unique beauty. And Siena, Florence, etc. all have their own collections. I think ND Paris is "special" in part because, being on an island, you can appreciate it's architecture from far enough away even on a tour boat to appreciate it. Many other EU cathedrals are so crowded by surrounding buildings that make them harder to appreciate.

 

 

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I know this has drifted nautical miles from its origin, but I think we can distill this down to two types of tourism.  Note that I don't think one is better than the other - just there are two types. 

1. Industrial tourism.  That is the kind where you line up to see those very rare and very famous places on earth.  Eiffel tower.  Rome's coliseum.  Pyramids.  Grand canyon.  

2. Local tourism.  Where you go somewhere and look around to see what is in some particular area.  That could be in an urban area (New York, Paris, London, Tokyo) or some rural area that is known for its natural beauty (Cotswolds in England, Tuscany in Italy and Dordogne in France come to mind; all places I have been).  There are (likely) millions of such uncrowded interesting places to visit.  

Walking the Camino de Santiago used to be local tourism but (I've heard) it has moved to the industrial category with more than 300,000 walkers last year.  

Pick the kind of tourism you like and go for it.  I still think that all travel is good travel and opens our eyes to the world around us.  

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my mother,,  went on a baltic cruise...   she said every  cultural shore excursion, no mater where they landed, you visited churches..  and bless her cynical heart as she got older,

 

"you see one damn church, you've seen them all,  what a waste of time" 

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Personally my idea of a great vacation is somewhere with no crowds but for the love of all things holy nothing is worse than grumpy people, crowds or not.  If you want to complain stay home and yell at the TV and the kids on your lawn.

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1 hour ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

well the museum in brazil was a wake up call,  everyone just hit the snooze alarm..   those buildings are old as shit, you shouldn't be storing irreplaceable artwork in them.. Brazilian museum didn't even have a sprinkler system.

I forgot, how many is a brazillion?  

 

21 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Personally my idea of a great vacation is somewhere with no crowds but for the love of all things holy nothing is worse than grumpy people, crowds or not.  If you want to complain stay home and yell at the TV and the kids on your lawn.

Thanks for reminding me.  Get off of my lawn!  My dogs have already destroyed it enough.

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30 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

my mother,,  went on a baltic cruise...   she said every  cultural shore excursion, no mater where they landed, you visited churches..  and bless her cynical heart as she got older,

 

"you see one damn church, you've seen them all,  what a waste of time" 

As my wife says "ABC...another bloody church..."

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Notre Dame de Paris 5,500[citation needed]   1163–1345 Paris 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France Catholic (Latin)

Roof and main spire destroyed by fire on 15th April 2019.

 

 

Hagia Sophia 7,960[citation needed] 255,800 [18] 532–537 Istanbul 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey Eastern Orthodox (Ecumenical Patriarchate) Originally built as a church, then converted into a mosque, now a museum

 

The Hagia Sophia only had four fires and 5 earthquakes in its 1500 year history. Could probably hold 2 or 3 Notre Dames.

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1 hour ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

there fixed it for you..

I pretty much said that at the end of my post in the TLDR.  

I feel I need to uphold my well deserved reputation here for being rather verbose.  I don't want to disappoint anyone.  I don't have much energy nowadays so luckily I don't do it very often now.  I will sleep well tonight because of the exertion from all this writing.

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15 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

I forgot, how many is a brazillion? 

It's not a number, it's a shaved pussy.

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54 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

my mother,,  went on a baltic cruise...   she said every  cultural shore excursion, no mater where they landed, you visited churches..  and bless her cynical heart as she got older,

 

"you see one damn church, you've seen them all,  what a waste of time" 

I like her.

A lot. :D

If you lover her then get her to stop travelling on those floating petri dishes.

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12 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:
Notre Dame de Paris 5,500[citation needed]   1163–1345 Paris 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France Catholic (Latin)

Roof and main spire destroyed by fire on 15th April 2019.

 

 

Hagia Sophia 7,960[citation needed] 255,800 [18] 532–537 Istanbul 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey Eastern Orthodox (Ecumenical Patriarchate) Originally built as a church, then converted into a mosque, now a museum

 

The Hagia Sophia only had four fires and 5 earthquakes in its 1500 year history. Could probably hold 2 or 3 Notre Dames.

The fact that people have spent so much time and money throughout history to build these huge churches always amazes me.  As an atheist, I believe this fact among others proves that the whole religion thing is a myth.  If Jesus was who he is reputed to be, I doubt he would approve of it all.  I don't know about Mohamed.  I think if the Catholic church were true to Christian principles, they should disband the institution and sell off St. Peter's and all of the Vatican treasures to pay reparations to all of the sex abuse victims.   At least Creflo Dollar is honest in beseeching his congregation to keep buying him bigger jets so he can spread the gospel.  

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Humorous anecdote:  I was on a cycling vacation in Germany and Austria and with some friends.  My friends are deeply religious Catholics.  

I enjoy touring churches for the history, art and architecture.  I don't think my friends were too impressed when I kept looking at the 300 year old art and kept asking question like "They painted Jesus with blond hair and blue eyes.  How many people from the eastern Mediterranean do you know that look like that?" or "Was Jesus a black man?" or "Why does god look like Santa Claus in that painting?".  

They are still my friends.   

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They confuse religion with the church.

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To help get back on track, here is something from today's New York Times:

Inside the cavernous cathedral of Notre-Dame in Paris, the last Mass of the day was underway...when the first fire alarm went off. It was 6:20 p.m.... someone went up to check the most vulnerable part of the medieval structure — the attic, a lattice of ancient wooden beams known as “the forest” — but no fire was found.... 

At 6:43 p.m., another alarm rang. It was just 23 minutes later, but when they returned to the attic, it was clear they had a major problem: It was on fire. 

Here is a lesson for everyone:  don't ignore alarms until you are absolutely positively 100% double-triple gold-standard-certified it was a false alarm.  Trust your instrumentation!  

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

I’m struck by the paradox of the general view that “we” need to be a more informed, experienced, insightful citizens of the world and irritated that they’re out there “experiencing”. The reality is as travel becomes more accessible and easier, that is going to happen more. I sympathize with the notion that waiting for hours to see beautiful things as part of a herd is something I want no part of either. If I cannot find alternative times that make the experience enjoyable then I’d pass as well, but I think it’s usually possible to engineer it to a satisfactory experience. 

I don't think it's a paradox - it's a reality that the tourist sites we've decided are worth seeing can't survive the number of people who want to see them. the evolution of the tourist trade is it's become about collecting "experiences" - so everyone packs into the Louvre to see the Mona Lisa, the Uffizi to see Venus on the half shell, and eventually the experience part disappears.

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Thanks guys, especially Ed. I think I’ll give Paris a miss, or at least the major tourist spots. I’m done with going to places destroyed by tourism. 

Paris is one of the most walkable and enjoyable cities in the world, with pleasures around every corner.  And those "major tourist spots" are major for a reason.  Don't go in July or August because it can get pretty hot to enjoy your stroll and the tourists are definitely present.  But the density of history and culture exceed perhaps any other place I've been, including Rome, London, Peking, Vienna, Tokyo.   May, October, December are all great.

Even if you want to miss Notre Dame, the Louvre, the Champs, Sacre Couer, the Eiffel Tower, the Arch de Triomphe, the Tuilleries, Montmartre, Centre Pompidou (although I have NO idea why you wouldn't want to explore them) there are plenty of places that remain among the finest in the world:

The stroll along the Seine Embankment, Ile de Saint Louis, the Musee Picasso,, Musee Rodin, the Carnavalet, Musee Conajc-Jay, the Arab Center, the Jardin des Plantes, Boulevard Mouffetard, the little restaurants and cafes in the 9th, the Opera House, des Invalides, La Musee des Pommes, strolling through the Marais, a bit of shopping in La Samaritaine, Les Halles district, Parc de Palais-Royale, Bois de Bolounge, Parc Montsouris (great neighborhood), Parc de Villette.  Well, I could go on and on.  

BTW1:  The trick with museums is to buy a three day museum pass which allows you to cut all the lines.  You even get to use the hidden little side door into the Louvre saving hours of queuing under the Pyramid.  

And you can rent a car and or take a train out to the chateaux Fountainebleau, Versailles, etc.  Driving in the French countryside is a delight.  

BTW2:  The best place to rent a car in Paris is actually in the Louvre underground mall, step through the side door of the rental joint, your in the garage, in your car and out onto the Place de La Concorde in seconds.  (Stay right, don't slow down, go around again if you miss your turn.)

Just my three cents.

 

BTW3:  I didn't put Musee d'Orsay on either list because, while the collection is fabulous, the redesign of the museum is hideous.

 

 

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Apparently the original roof framing was Beech..... I imagine the replacement will be laminated, and of a different species, but I don't think that'll matter as much as getting it done, and done as properly as possible while incl. some fire suppression.

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2 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

well the museum in brazil was a wake up call,  everyone just hit the snooze alarm..   those buildings are old as shit, you shouldn't be storing irreplaceable artwork in them.. Brazilian museum didn't even have a sprinkler system.

Tha Cairo Museum is incredibly bad. It houses incredible antiquities and looks like it was last updated in 1955. It is a tragedy waiting to happen.

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8 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

 

 

BTW3:  I didn't put Musee d'Orsay on either list because, while the collection is fabulous, the redesign of the museum is hideous.

 

 

Yes, it's a travesty.  A great idea gone bad.

And they need to improve the ventilation, I can still smell those foul tourists!

 

BTW1:  I am going to have to disagree with you on one point, when it comes to culture and history Rome has Paris beat by a a mile.  Paris is a baby compared to Rome.  The Romans had a culture and indoor plumbing long before Paris existed and the French never really had an Empire worth mentioning, Napoleon not withstanding.  

BTW2:  When I was a young GI in Nürnberg back in the '70s I was a baker and later a cook in the Army hospital there.  Us single enlisted pukes had rooms in the barracks at the hospital but we were allowed to live off post as long as we showed up for formations, etc.  So one of my fellow bakers and I scored a deal on a nice apartment on the 3rd floor of a house right around the corner from the hospital.  As we were finalizing the details with the landlord who also lived in the house, he asked us what day of the week we took our bath.  I looked at my friend and he looked at me.  We gently informed the landlord that we had a hot sweaty job and we preferred to bathe every day.  The landlord appeared to be a little puzzled at first and then he shrugged and said OK.  Being in a crowded strassenbahn (streetcar) on a hot summer day back then was a real treat, all those raised arms hanging on to the straps...    Upon returning to Germany in the late '90s, I was relieved to learn that Europe had  generally improved their hygiene habits. 

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16 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Apparently the original roof framing was Beech..... I imagine the replacement will be laminated, and of a different species, but I don't think that'll matter as much as getting it done, and done as properly as possible while incl. some fire suppression.

Shit, the steps in my house are Beech.  They're only 9 years old but I better check for fire regularly.  Thanks for the heads up.

 

Stairs 1.jpg

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today the froggie governement announced an international architectural contest to decide if the spire would be rebuilt as it was, or for a totally new and different spire ... will be an interesting decision knowing the spire that fell down was designed by Viollet Le Duc, one of the most iconic french architects or something totally new and different, one can expect a load of discussion and polarisation ... but everybody with a wee bit of insight in building and restoration matters is saying the Macron's idea to rebuild in 5 years is a dangerous dream

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On 4/15/2019 at 2:30 PM, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

aGZ7dK5_700bwp.webp

Thats funny shit right there

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6 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

This thread makes me want to reread "The Pillars of the Earth"

Me too.  (2nd book was okay, too, but haven't gotten to the third one yet....)

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Where are the priest going to touch little boys now.to much i know but i am just a dick 

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3 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Me too.  (2nd book was okay, too, but haven't gotten to the third one yet....)

Yeah it got me back on that classic too and i bought an e-copy for Mer after she and Joey watched it all burn for a while. 

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35 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

Yes, it's a travesty.  A great idea gone bad.

And they need to improve the ventilation, I can still smell those foul tourists!

 

BTW1:  I am going to have to disagree with you on one point, when it comes to culture and history Rome has Paris beat by a a mile.  Paris is a baby compared to Rome.  The Romans had a culture and indoor plumbing long before Paris existed and the French never really had an Empire worth mentioning, Napoleon not withstanding.  

BTW2:  When I was a young GI in Nürnberg back in the '70s I was a baker and later a cook in the Army hospital there.  Us single enlisted pukes had rooms in the barracks at the hospital but we were allowed to live off post as long as we showed up for formations, etc.  So one of my fellow bakers and I scored a deal on a nice apartment on the 3rd floor of a house right around the corner from the hospital.  As we were finalizing the details with the landlord who also lived in the house, he asked us what day of the week we took our bath.  I looked at my friend and he looked at me.  We gently informed the landlord that we had a hot sweaty job and we preferred to bathe every day.  The landlord appeared to be a little puzzled at first and then he shrugged and said OK.  Being in a crowded strassenbahn (streetcar) on a hot summer day back then was a real treat, all those raised arms hanging on to the straps...    Upon returning to Germany in the late '90s, I was relieved to learn that Europe had  generally improved their hygiene habits. 

Rome totally beats France until 500 AD, when it turned into a sewer for more than a thousand years.  Then it was nice again, then a sewer again. 

 

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3 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Rome totally beats France until 500 1400 AD, when it turned into a sewer for more than a thousand years.  Then it was nice again, then a sewer again. 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Albatros said:

today the froggie governement announced an international architectural contest to decide if the spire would be rebuilt as it was, or for a totally new and different spire ... will be an interesting decision knowing the spire that fell down was designed by Viollet Le Duc, one of the most iconic french architects or something totally new and different, one can expect a load of discussion and polarisation ... but everybody with a wee bit of insight in building and restoration matters is saying the Macron's idea to rebuild in 5 years is a dangerous dream

Not dangerous, but likely hopeful and unrealistic.  

But Windsor Palace took five years, and the Apollo moonshot program took five years. (But getting the Twin Towers rebuilt took for-fucking-ever.)

 

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57 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

Yes, it's a travesty.  A great idea gone bad.

And they need to improve the ventilation, I can still smell those foul tourists!

 

BTW1:  I am going to have to disagree with you on one point, when it comes to culture and history Rome has Paris beat by a a mile.  Paris is a baby compared to Rome.  The Romans had a culture and indoor plumbing long before Paris existed and the French never really had an Empire worth mentioning, Napoleon not withstanding.  

BTW2:  When I was a young GI in Nürnberg back in the '70s I was a baker and later a cook in the Army hospital there.  Us single enlisted pukes had rooms in the barracks at the hospital but we were allowed to live off post as long as we showed up for formations, etc.  So one of my fellow bakers and I scored a deal on a nice apartment on the 3rd floor of a house right around the corner from the hospital.  As we were finalizing the details with the landlord who also lived in the house, he asked us what day of the week we took our bath.  I looked at my friend and he looked at me.  We gently informed the landlord that we had a hot sweaty job and we preferred to bathe every day.  The landlord appeared to be a little puzzled at first and then he shrugged and said OK.  Being in a crowded strassenbahn (streetcar) on a hot summer day back then was a real treat, all those raised arms hanging on to the straps...    Upon returning to Germany in the late '90s, I was relieved to learn that Europe had  generally improved their hygiene habits. 

What is the point of your BTW2?  

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5 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

I love impressionist art and I went to the Musee D'orsay to see some of the best around.  The Van Gogh room was completely crowded with people of course and I doubt many of them had bathed recently.  It almost made me sick and I had to leave without really getting to appreciate the art because the smell was so bad.  Fucking tourists could at least bathe now and then.

We are the crowd!

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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

This thread makes me want to reread "The Pillars of the Earth"

Another book along that theme is "Sarum".  It is a similar story set among the construction of Salisbury Cathedral. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarum_(novel)

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37 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

What is the point of your BTW2?  

Smelly tourists.  I mentioned them in my original post.

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1 hour ago, Mrleft8 said:

Apparently the original roof framing was Beech..... I imagine the replacement will be laminated, and of a different species, but I don't think that'll matter as much as getting it done, and done as properly as possible while incl. some fire suppression.

Everything I read said it was oak...https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/notre-dame-fire/h_f15ba521f928da7aca3871c7647108ca?utm_source=twCNN&utm_medium=social&utm_term=image&utm_content=2019-04-15T22%3A55%3A05

Quote

Notre Dame’s medieval roof structure, known as "the forest," has been lost to the massive fire, according to Msgr. Patrick Chauvet, the rector of the cathedral.

“The framework from the 13th century is called a forest, because it required a forest of trees to build it,” he said.

The cathedral's wooden frame, which primarily consists of oak, contains beams that date as far back as the first frame. It features trees cut down between 1160 and 1170, forming one of the oldest parts of the structure.

Most of the current frame dates from the year 1220, according to the church's website

According to the Notre Dame website, it’s one of Paris’s oldest frameworks. Learn more about the construction of the famous cathedral here.

 

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3 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

my mother,,  went on a baltic cruise...   she said every  cultural shore excursion, no mater where they landed, you visited churches..  and bless her cynical heart as she got older,

 

"you see one damn church, you've seen them all,  what a waste of time" 

sounds like a fine lady

 

my friend regarding his mother-in-law who passed  a month ago at the age of 103:"she gave up smoking at 95...never gave up the whiskey" :D

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2 hours ago, Albatros said:

today the froggie governement announced an international architectural contest to decide if the spire would be rebuilt as it was, or for a totally new and different spire ... will be an interesting decision knowing the spire that fell down was designed by Viollet Le Duc, one of the most iconic french architects or something totally new and different, one can expect a load of discussion and polarisation ... but everybody with a wee bit of insight in building and restoration matters is saying the Macron's idea to rebuild in 5 years is a dangerous dream

The could make a huge cell and broadband antenna and disguise it like the old one. Get the telecoms to pay for it.

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2 hours ago, sledracr said:

Me too.  (2nd book was okay, too, but haven't gotten to the third one yet....)

I stopped with Pillars. It seemed anything more would be anticlimactic. How can you improve on Tom the Builder, Prior Phillip, Jack and Ellen.....besides it was kinda depressing......I thought some things should just be done. I know.......a little odd.

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5 hours ago, Point Break said:

I’m struck by the paradox of the general view that “we” need to be a more informed, experienced, insightful citizens of the world and irritated that they’re out there “experiencing”. The reality is as travel becomes more accessible and easier, that is going to happen more. I sympathize with the notion that waiting for hours to see beautiful things as part of a herd is something I want no part of either. If I cannot find alternative times that make the experience enjoyable then I’d pass as well, but I think it’s usually possible to engineer it to a satisfactory experience. 

Everybody does the best they can.......mostly.

Granada seems to manage The Alhambra quite well. Limited Tickets must be purchased well in advance, limited groups and if you miss your time slot? too bad. I booked in the second group for the day 8.30 start. The group spread out after the first room and the next 2 hours was quite peaceful. got a bit crowded as later groups caught up. We'll be in Venice in June for 4 days..Staying as far away from St Marks as possible without falling off..Should be OK with a sunrise start and after the day trippers gets back on their "boat" after 8ish

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3 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

 he asked us what day of the week we took our bath.  I looked at my friend and he looked at me.  We gently informed the landlord that we had a hot sweaty job and we preferred to bathe every day.  The landlord appeared to be a little puzzled at first and then he shrugged and said OK.  Being in a crowded strassenbahn (streetcar) on a hot summer day back then was a real treat, all those raised arms hanging on to the straps...    Upon returning to Germany in the late '90s, I was relieved to learn that Europe had  generally improved their hygiene habits. 

When I lived in England - '60 to '62 - the Saturday night bath was still the norm.

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3 hours ago, Knut Grotzki said:

http://www.notredamedeparis.fr/en/la-cathedrale/architecture/la-charpente/

Please do not understand this wrong (lower right button)

image.png.ec47bbdeba9ff4421d55f70371489007.png

Attic framing looks very straightforward and competent.  Pretty similar to the attic of my sister's 8th century hill town building above Nice.  Her's is a bit cruder, as you would expect.  

I wonder if they will consider trunnels for the connections again.  There are certainly people around who know how to make and frame with them.  Wooden boat builders may be in demand as that is quite probably the last place that tradition is carried on.  

 

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6 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Shit, the steps in my house are Beech.  They're only 9 years old but I better check for fire regularly.  Thanks for the heads up.

 

Stairs 1.jpg

Nice stairs. Beech is a very fine, strong wood. It's difficult to dry. and it's difficult to work in large planks. It's exceptionally wear resistant, and very hard. Close grain, with interlocking fibers, which would make it a great structural timber, if it were available in lng clear lengths..... Apparently, 800 years ago it was.

 Beech( In the Fagus family)is often used as a substitute for  Oak. (esp. English brown Oak, or Quericus Robur)

 It can grow to an immense girth, but it usually branchy, and round crowned.....

 

 

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9 hours ago, DA-WOODY said:

How about Buffing it out and put a retractable dome over the whole place

allowing those who saw it before to wait in line to see what happened 

Excellent idea

Only need a one sided jumbotron hanging from ceiling  to broadcast what is going on up front or a documentary of what happened.  Letterbox at bottom of screen. Great platform for sound and lighting effects.

Only real issue is will Cowboy owner Jerry Jones license them the phrase "The roof opens up so God can watch too"  or "Le toit s'ouvre pour que Dieu puisse regarder aussi"  ;<)

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1 hour ago, Left Shift said:

Attic framing looks very straightforward and competent.  Pretty similar to the attic of my sister's 8th century hill town building above Nice.  Her's is a bit cruder, as you would expect.  

I wonder if they will consider trunnels for the connections again.  There are certainly people around who know how to make and frame with them.  Wooden boat builders may be in demand as that is quite probably the last place that tradition is carried on. 

Timber framers use them.

Just one more "lost art".

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Timber framers use them.

Just one more "lost art".

I wonder if there is engineering data in the International Building Code to cover their design and installation for an assembly use in Type III, single story but high rise construction.  Nope, I'm not going to look that up.  

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9 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

Nice stairs. Beech is a very fine, strong wood. It's difficult to dry. and it's difficult to work in large planks. It's exceptionally wear resistant, and very hard. Close grain, with interlocking fibers, which would make it a great structural timber, if it were available in lng clear lengths..... Apparently, 800 years ago it was.

 Beech( In the Fagus family)is often used as a substitute for  Oak. (esp. English brown Oak, or Quericus Robur)

 It can grow to an immense girth, but it usually branchy, and round crowned.....

 

 

Poland has very sandy soil so Pine trees are the most common tree here, I am quite tired of seeing them actually, I have 5 of them in my back yard.  Birch trees appear here and there and groves of Beech trees aren't unusual.  The Beech trees here are quite straight and tall and don't branch until a ways up.  Acacia, Oak and a few Maples  round out the majority of the trees here but Pine by far is the most common.

We had a local carpenter here make the stairs, he did a great job.  After 9 years they are solid and not a squeak to be heard.  I love the opposing, subtle curves on the stringers.

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13 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Granada seems to manage The Alhambra quite well. Limited Tickets must be purchased well in advance, limited groups and if you miss your time slot? too bad. I booked in the second group for the day 8.30 start. The group spread out after the first room and the next 2 hours was quite peaceful. got a bit crowded as later groups caught up. We'll be in Venice in June for 4 days..Staying as far away from St Marks as possible without falling off..Should be OK with a sunrise start and after the day trippers gets back on their "boat" after 8ish

Good luck in Venice, it is almost impossible to avoid crowds there, the city is just too small for the amount of visitors.  Especially in the summer.  Those who have never been there until recent years will never know how truly magical that city was when not overwhelmed by the unwashed hordes.  It is still magical but extremely annoying which takes a lot of the magic out of it.  By the way, just spend the money and ride on a gondola.  Usually they offer to take you down the Grand Canal or on the smaller quieter small canals.  I think the smaller canals is a better trip and viewing the city from water level is an entirely different experience.  And you largely avoid people contact although of course there will be other boats in the canals.

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1 hour ago, Ed Lada said:

Good luck in Venice, it is almost impossible to avoid crowds there, the city is just too small for the amount of visitors.  Especially in the summer.  Those who have never been there until recent years will never know how truly magical that city was when not overwhelmed by the unwashed hordes.  It is still magical but extremely annoying which takes a lot of the magic out of it.  By the way, just spend the money and ride on a gondola.  Usually they offer to take you down the Grand Canal or on the smaller quieter small canals.  I think the smaller canals is a better trip and viewing the city from water level is an entirely different experience.  And you largely avoid people contact although of course there will be other boats in the canals.

I think they should expand Venice so that it is not so crowded. They could bring the Disney people in, they are good at that sort of thing. (Now where did I leave my purple crayon?)

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20 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

I think they should expand Venice so that it is not so crowded. They could bring the Disney people in, they are good at that sort of thing. (Now where did I leave my purple crayon?)

Maybe have Disney build a "Venice for cruise ships and tour buses" somewhere else where the water is shallow and a bit fetid.  Maybe near the ship breaking beaches in Bhatiari.  Most of those tourists wouldn't know the difference.  As a bonus, perhaps a cruise ship or a dozen could be grounded and dismantled on the spot.  

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1 hour ago, Ed Lada said:

Good luck in Venice, it is almost impossible to avoid crowds there, the city is just too small for the amount of visitors.  Especially in the summer.  Those who have never been there until recent years will never know how truly magical that city was when not overwhelmed by the unwashed hordes.  It is still magical but extremely annoying which takes a lot of the magic out of it.  By the way, just spend the money and ride on a gondola.  Usually they offer to take you down the Grand Canal or on the smaller quieter small canals.  I think the smaller canals is a better trip and viewing the city from water level is an entirely different experience.  And you largely avoid people contact although of course there will be other boats in the canals.

This will be my 5th or 6th trip to Venice...I don't need to see the Doges palace and usually avoid St Marks. It's a cliche but the best way to see venice is to get lost in it's quieter sestieri very early in the morning. Done the Gondola thing years ago. Kids can get a Traghetto if they must .Trick is to get up at sunrise and take the first Vaporetto from st Lucia along the GC..walk back . Dorsoduro and Canareggio are much quieter ..you can always find a quiet canal in Venice.

Then I'm going to Athens :)

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1 hour ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

I think they should expand Venice so that it is not so crowded. They could bring the Disney people in, they are good at that sort of thing. (Now where did I leave my purple crayon?)

There is sort of a Disney Venice ..it's in France

Cruse boats welcome

Port Grimaud..

Image result for Port grimaud

I actually sailed from there to San Tropez once. :D

https://www.google.com/search?q=Port+grimaud&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-gbAU714AU714&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrqInl39nhAhVZbysKHSh9BUIQ_AUIDigB&biw=1366&bih=625

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A pic from earlier today.... more scaffolding up to secure the spires.    A sad but hopeful scene on a beautiful Spring day.

 

NotreDame.jpg

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22 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Not dangerous, but likely hopeful and unrealistic.  

But Windsor Palace took five years, and the Apollo moonshot program took five years. (But getting the Twin Towers rebuilt took for-fucking-ever.)

 

my verbiage was very precise, have spent several years in architecture school and an ex of mine was responsible (as architect) for the restoration of brussels cathedral, which took over 10 years ... the danger is cutting corners, trying to stay within that very narrow timeframe. Best thing they can do now is take a breather, really assess the situation, really assess the options and then only consider what can and should be done, then find the best sources and contractors and then only think about starting, for that a 5 years timeframe is as good as impossible, not to start, but to finish in a good way.

 

on a lighter note, one of our own artists has just announced that he will send in a proposal for a new spire, the man is known all over the arty-farty world (and made a fortune in it) for a couple err...... thingmybobs, that some would call art, like :

 

for your amusement, here we have the cloaca machine, yep, on one side food goes in and on the other side shit comes out

67188dd6-d91f-3db7-b922-69c8783c7488_120

and also, his real moneymaker, tattoo'd pigs, the man has a pigfarm in China just for that

b5b7d685-bac8-3430-8364-050c472ee807_135

 

 

 

 

a tattoo'd shit spreading spire perhaps ? plenty of options, have at it , grin

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28 minutes ago, Albatros said:

my verbiage was very precise, have spent several years in architecture school and an ex of mine was responsible (as architect) for the restoration of brussels cathedral, which took over 10 years ... the danger is cutting corners, trying to stay within that very narrow timeframe. Best thing they can do now is take a breather, really assess the situation, really assess the options and then only consider what can and should be done, then find the best sources and contractors and then only think about starting, for that a 5 years timeframe is as good as impossible, not to start, but to finish in a good way.

 

on a lighter note, one of our own artists has just announced that he will send in a proposal for a new spire, the man is known all over the arty-farty world (and made a fortune in it) for a couple err...... thingmybobs, that some would call art, like :

 

for your amusement, here we have the cloaca machine, yep, on one side food goes in and on the other side shit comes out

67188dd6-d91f-3db7-b922-69c8783c7488_120

and also, his real moneymaker, tattoo'd pigs, the man has a pigfarm in China just for that

b5b7d685-bac8-3430-8364-050c472ee807_135

 

 

 

 

a tattoo'd shit spreading spire perhaps ? plenty of options, have at it , grin

Well, I sincerely doubt that they will cut corners to make the hopes of an unpopular prime minister come true.

I bring a 40 year career running my own architectural firm specializing in historic rehabilitation to inform my opinion.  So that may account for something.  If replication is the approach taken, and money apparently not a problem, the greatest difficulty will be sourcing materials and craftsmen.  However, it appears several owners of oak forests have offered trees.  

 

Never tattooed a pig and don’t want to.  I make my own poop daily and don’t need more.  And if I was being precise, I would have used “wording” or “diction” not “verbiage”.  

 

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On 4/17/2019 at 10:57 AM, Ed Lada said:

That's the answer.  My first visits to Europe were to visit and stay with family.  My grandparents lived in a very nice part of Rome where there is nothing for tourists to see.  When I wanted to see the famous sights, In about 15 minutes walking, I could be in the middle of Rome and all of its glories.  Experiencing that at an early age taught me to appreciate how the locals live and where they eat, etc.  Since then, when I travel, I might catch some of the must see things but then I just like to wander down the side streets and investigate the out of the way things.  I have had some wonderful food and met some wonderful people that way.  In my younger days, walking 10 miles or more was no problem.  Unfortunately, I don't walk very well now and my wandering days are pretty much over. 

Yup - for me?  Trestavere was an awesome place.   The Sistine chapel and Vatican museum?   It felt like we were going to be stampeded if we didn't keep running.  I much more enjoyed going into St Peter's Basilica at night just before closing time when nobody was around.  Venice?  Go in March - before Carnivale. 

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8 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Well, I sincerely doubt that they will cut corners to make the hopes of an unpopular prime minister come true.

I bring a 40 year career running my own architectural firm specializing in historic rehabilitation to inform my opinion.  So that may account for something.  If replication is the approach taken, and money apparently not a problem, the greatest difficulty will be sourcing materials and craftsmen.  However, it appears several owners of oak forests have offered trees.  

 

Never tattooed a pig and don’t want to.  I make my own poop daily and don’t need more.  And if I was being precise, I would have used “wording” or “diction” not “verbiage”.  

 

Reason for mentioning this archiwhatsit background and connections was nowhere near to get into a "mine is longer than yours" contest, just saying I know what I know, if you know that too and even more .. fine with me. But also knowing my froggie neighbours ways, there is really a danger that if Macron tries to make this into some kind of a prestige project, which he might well do even if it's against his current gilets jaunes problem, there is a distinct danger.

at least they will need to come up with a plan asap to cover the whole thing, a gigantic umbrella , the inner vaults would probably not survive a winter when left open, let alone the walls, that alone will keep them busy for the next months at least.

For the spire I would suggest asking Jeff Koons to come up with one of his balloon structures, a  50 meter high golden dildo or somesuch ? wink

on the verbiage fun ... I'd go for the UK explanification as it also includes the tonge in cheek level that was intended when using just that term

 

verbiage
/ˈvəːbɪɪdʒ/
noun
noun: verbiage; noun: verbage
  1. 1.
    excessively lengthy or technical speech or writing.
    "the basic idea here, despite all the verbiage, is simple"
    synoniemen: verbosity, verboseness, padding, wordiness, prolixity, prolixness, superfluity, redundancy, long-windedness, lengthiness, protractedness, discursiveness, expansiveness, digressiveness, convolution, circumlocution, circuitousness, rambling, wandering, meandering; Meer
    informalwaffle, waffling, wittering, flannel;
    rarelogorrhoea
    "there is plenty of irrelevant verbiage but no real information"
  2. 2.
    US
    the way in which something is expressed; wording or diction.
    "we need to look at how the rule should be applied, based on the verbiage"
Herkomst

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45 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Yup - for me?  Trastevere was (for the usual reason) an awesome place.   The Sistine chapel and Vatican museum?   It felt like we were going to be stampeded if we didn't keep running.  I much more enjoyed going into St Peter's Basilica at night just before closing time when nobody was around.  Venice?  Go in January - before Carnivale. 

You’re right, a Venetian calle in the fog can be unbearably romantic - provided it doesn’t coincide with acqua alta high tide

 

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Perhaps the Vatican can sell burnt chards of the roof to raise money 

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Well, they have a good supply of ashes for many foreheads to come......

Still too soon?

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1 hour ago, Albatros said:

 

For the spire I would suggest asking Jeff Koons to come up with one of his balloon structures, a  50 meter high golden dildo or somesuch ? wink

 

Jeff Koons, the Renoir of the current age.  

 

(Just to be clear, that is not a complement to either.)

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