gn4478

Keel Failure

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STS5LRE2ZFGMRL4DKZX2XT4KXA.thumb.jpg.4eb539a1d5f341ab1b6530abaaf065ed.jpg

It tore a big hole when it left. 

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That looks like a catastrophic grounding or similar - not like one of the all too common razor blade keels dropping off.

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Paging @Steam Flyer

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

That looks like a catastrophic grounding or similar - not like one of the all too common razor blade keels dropping off.

The  waves look like they are breaking on a shalllow bar.

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Looks like the rudder is 1/2 gone as well

 

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and muddy water...

 

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Looks like it isn't the first!

Maybe a change in thread title is in order!

Screen Shot 2019-04-15 at 3.45.47 PM.png

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Anyone find out anything else about this? Judging by the waves in that pic, and the shoaling at the entrance - I could see some pretty nasty conditions that could toss you up onto the shallows pretty easily...

1197418249_ScreenShot2019-04-18at5_49_51PM.thumb.png.ad8d967a7c24144d8b7f8ec283e9bab9.png

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Been through there a few times, mostly in much smaller boats. That channel has claimed plenty of victims thanks to nasty tides and shifting shoals.. Absolutely a grounding-related keel failure - that looks like an encapsulated keel, the way it tore the hole so big and so far outboard on the hull. Also note that the rudder is damaged, and oh yeah - the diver is STANDING next to the RIB, in breaking waves. That boat hit bottom.

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21 minutes ago, LotsO'Knots said:

Been through there a few times, mostly in much smaller boats. That channel has claimed plenty of victims thanks to nasty tides and shifting shoals.. Absolutely a grounding-related keel failure - that looks like an encapsulated keel, the way it tore the hole so big and so far outboard on the hull. Also note that the rudder is damaged, and oh yeah - the diver is STANDING next to the RIB, in breaking waves. That boat hit bottom.

STANDING?  Are you sure?  Where's the rig?  I'm just asking. I look at the pic posted, maybe there's a shadow of the rig and main in the water, maybe not....

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11 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

STANDING?  Are you sure?  Where's the rig?  I'm just asking. I look at the pic posted, maybe there's a shadow of the rig and main in the water, maybe not....

Yep standing. Water is at his ribs. Unless he's treading water pretty hard - you ever try to pull yourself into a dinghy wearing a SCUBA rig? That rig is sunk and the yacht is on the ground. By the way - science says waves break when the depth of the water is half the height of the wave itself - how tall you think that wave is behind him?

Screen Shot 2019-04-19 at 9.43.39 AM.png

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31 minutes ago, LotsO'Knots said:

Yep standing. Water is at his ribs. Unless he's treading water pretty hard - you ever try to pull yourself into a dinghy wearing a SCUBA rig? That rig is sunk and the yacht is on the ground. By the way - science says waves break when the depth of the water is half the height of the wave itself - how tall you think that wave is behind him?

Screen Shot 2019-04-19 at 9.43.39 AM.png

I agree that it is shallow and failure caused by grounding but had always heard that a wave will break in a depth of water 1.3 times the height of the wave, ie a 6 foot wave will break in 9 feet of water, a 3 foot wave in 4 feet of water, etc.

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2 hours ago, ROADKILL666 said:

Holland design?

That's what I'm trying to figure out too. I agree with LoK above that it looks like it was an older encapsulated keel since there's not even a stub left. And you'd think that if they pounded that hard for a while, the damage would have been pushing the keel up into the boat. It just doesn't look like that from these pics. Strange.

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No matter how you look at it it sucks ass.At least they are safe.

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1 minute ago, Rasputin22 said:

Why do you ask 'Holland design'? 

Whitbread maxi Drum

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I doubt either - that boat appears to have significant deadrise and maybe even a largish garboard radius. It's hard to tell with all that ripped up glass.

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Very hard to tell boat type but it looks similar to a C&C 35. 

However I can attest it is rather hard to rip the keel out of one of those.

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On 4/19/2019 at 9:45 AM, LotsO'Knots said:

Yep standing. Water is at his ribs. Unless he's treading water pretty hard - you ever try to pull yourself into a dinghy wearing a SCUBA rig? That rig is sunk and the yacht is on the ground. By the way - science says waves break when the depth of the water is half the height of the wave itself - how tall you think that wave is behind him?

Screen Shot 2019-04-19 at 9.43.39 AM.png

 

I don't believe he is standing, just using the bouyancy of the inflatable.  Rig would have to be gone for it to be that shallow.

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The rig is gone

image.thumb.png.87c3baa2bbc6c3962dd1956ecbf60b4e.png

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22 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

The rig is gone

image.thumb.png.87c3baa2bbc6c3962dd1956ecbf60b4e.png

 

Looks like the headsail and main showing under the surface?

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I don't know if I would call this one a keel failure, rather a bad grounding where the boat got pummelled to death on the bottom. 

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Perhaps the keel actually pounded into the cabin interior before it fell back out. Looks about 5’ depths there at most. That boats deck is sitting on the sand. 

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18 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Perhaps the keel actually pounded into the cabin interior before it fell back out. Looks about 5’ depths there at most. That boats deck is sitting on the sand. 

Retractable keel?  No, ours is detractable.

- Stumbling

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3 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

I don't believe he is standing, just using the bouyancy of the inflatable.  Rig would have to be gone for it to be that shallow.

Well, with a hole that big in the bottom out the hull,  that yacht sure ain't floating. So either the rig had gone (hardly surprising once the hull rolls and the rig hours the bottom) or the rig is touching the bottom and the hull is balancing on top of it,  which doesn't seem likely. 

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14 minutes ago, Jackett said:

Well, with a hole that big in the bottom out the hull,  that yacht sure ain't floating. So either the rig had gone (hardly surprising once the hull rolls and the rig hours the bottom) or the rig is touching the bottom and the hull is balancing on top of it,  which doesn't seem likely. 

Actually with the keel gone no reasons to not keep floating (remember Cheeki Rafiki). However it does seem to be floating surprisingly high at the bow – either air trapped at the front of the boat or vestige of the rig stuck in the bottom.

 _75075610_140523-n-zz999-002.jpg

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1 minute ago, KC375 said:

Actually with the keel gone no reasons to not keep floating (remember Cheeki Rafiki). However it does seem to be floating surprisingly high at the bow – either air trapped at the front of the boat or vestige of the rig stuck in the bottom.

 

 _75075610_140523-n-zz999-002.jpg

 

 Not the same thing.  Look how low Cheeki Radio is floating.  With no weight of keel to support,  she's sunk down until the buoyancy  of the materials she's made of (plus possibly a few pockets of air trapped in lockers etc) is enough to keep her afloat. For typical yacht construction that results in the hull being almost fully submerged, if not sunk. The yacht in the opening post would need to be constructed off nothing denser than balsa to be floating that high with a hole that size in her bottom. 

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4 minutes ago, Jackett said:

 Not the same thing.  Look how low Cheeki Radio is floating.  With no weight of keel to support,  she's sunk down until the buoyancy  of the materials she's made of (plus possibly a few pockets of air trapped in lockers etc) is enough to keep her afloat. For typical yacht construction that results in the hull being almost fully submerged, if not sunk. The yacht in the opening post would need to be constructed off nothing denser than balsa to be floating that high with a hole that size in her bottom. 

your right she is too far out of the water to be floating

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Keel/centerboard with remnants of the board housing???

If so, long shot guess, Tartan 34

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4 hours ago, billy backstay said:

Looks like the headsail and main showing under the surface?

Exactly - and the pic with the hull inverted shows the shadow of the rig in the same place - the boat rolled over and snapped the rig.image.png.e3ffa2f42dfc028aec7215cd0612dab8.png

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1 hour ago, rstone said:

Keel/centerboard with remnants of the board housing???

If so, long shot guess, Tartan 34

That’s the best guess so far. I couldn’t figure out the busted out port garboard until you posted that. Good eye!

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On 4/19/2019 at 9:44 AM, ROADKILL666 said:

Holland design?

Possibly.  They have shallow areas like this one in Holland too.

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On 4/20/2019 at 5:10 PM, rstone said:

Keel/centerboard with remnants of the board housing???

If so, long shot guess, Tartan 34

I'm trying to do the mental gymnastics on this thing. You have the keel-less boat laying over to port in what looks to be shallow water.

image.png

 

Then it looks to have continued to turtle, ripping what I assume was a keel-stepped mast and base out of the keel sump?

keel.png.f917b70d23fc33c37ca5dc6344f1f0e3.png

So my question is - is that horizontal piece indicated by the arrow part of the keel stub - or was this just a centerboard boat with no extended keel? It's just weird. I can't figure it out. Doesn't look to be a T34 though...

lOnLift-BoardDown.jpg

 

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On 4/19/2019 at 10:14 AM, ROADKILL666 said:

Whitbread maxi Drum

That was the result of a manufacturing flaw, not a design issue.

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13 hours ago, luminary said:

That was the result of a manufacturing flaw, not a design issue.

No, it was a design flaw, apparently a pretty obvious one too. Or maybe at best it was a bit of both.

 

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I'd really like to know what make/model this boat was. Anyone local that know more about this incident?  /Bjarke

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23 hours ago, PaulK said:

Possibly.  They have shallow areas like this one in Holland too.

So, would that then be Holland compatible?

- Stumbling

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On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 6:47 PM, Hitchhiker said:

Looks like it isn't the first!

Maybe a change in thread title is in order!

Screen Shot 2019-04-15 at 3.45.47 PM.png

Change the title of the thread to "Navigation Failure!" it would seem.

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1 hour ago, BillDBastard said:

Change the title of the thread to "Navigation Failure!" it would seem.

 

The forgot to put the wheels on the keel!!

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6 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

No, it was a design flaw, apparently a pretty obvious one too. Or maybe at best it was a bit of both.

It was bad welding, not bad design.

"the boat lost its keel because the builder failed to heat treat the structure holding the keep to the yacht as specified by the designer, a necessary step after welding aluminum."

Holland is one of the all time great designers.

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26 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

The forgot to put the wheels on the keel!!

Now there is an idea that should gain some traction.

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The entire GA and SC coastlines are littered with unmarked and moving shoals.  They only way to stay away from them is keep it out past the 3 mile line.  Charts from 1983 don't do anything for the, (sometimes monthly) shifts around inlets and barrier islands.

Make any approaches during the day and in as controlled and calm conditions as you can. 

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9 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

No, it was a design flaw, apparently a pretty obvious one too. Or maybe at best it was a bit of both.

 

Ron Holland appeared at the inquiry and showed them the design standards he used. Simply it was 2.5 times the keel weight, applied as pressure at the base. 1000 pound keel, 2500 pounds pressure at the base. Drum had the top keel section made from aluminium, with a flat plate at the bottom. The keel was bolted to the plate. It was shown that the aluminum welds were not satisfactory. That is the way I remember it. Maybe someone has other info.

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21 minutes ago, Unkle Krusty said:

Ron Holland appeared at the inquiry and showed them the design standards he used. Simply it was 2.5 times the keel weight, applied as pressure at the base. 1000 pound keel, 2500 pounds pressure at the base. Drum had the top keel section made from aluminium, with a flat plate at the bottom. The keel was bolted to the plate. It was shown that the aluminum welds were not satisfactory. That is the way I remember it. Maybe someone has other info.

Only a thousand pound keel for that big race boat? You must have dropped a decimal.

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42 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Only a thousand pound keel for that big race boat? You must have dropped a decimal.

I used those numbers as an example. They are not the actual weights. There are three ways to research or remember the keel leaving Drum. News of the day, Inquiry, Google search. News of the day mentions possible welding problems. The Inquiry said it was welding problems, Google says it was welding problems. I read the inquiry report. IMO, it seemed that initially Ron was on the hook, but he did an excellent job explaining how he made his design conclusions. It satisfied the inquiry people. I used his numbers when adding weight to my dagger board boat. Drum also ran aground in the Bay of Islands NZ. Having said the above, if someone wants to believe it was a design flaw, then so be it. It seems to be the modern way.

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4 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

 

Holland is one of the all time great designers.

No guarantee of always getting it right, especially if you're pushing the limit. 

The only boat I ever had keel trouble with was a quarter pounder designed by him, the Eygthene 24. Another I know of broke off the part of the rudder stock when sailing & nearly sank. But there were lots of quality issues with that boat. I've no idea what was design spec & what was just shitty builders. 

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16 minutes ago, Unkle Krusty said:

I used those numbers as an example. They are not the actual weights. There are three ways to research or remember the keel leaving Drum. News of the day, Inquiry, Google search. News of the day mentions possible welding problems. The Inquiry said it was welding problems, Google says it was welding problems. I read the inquiry report. IMO, it seemed that initially Ron was on the hook, but he did an excellent job explaining how he made his design conclusions. It satisfied the inquiry people. I used his numbers when adding weight to my dagger board boat. Drum also ran aground in the Bay of Islands NZ. Having said the above, if someone wants to believe it was a design flaw, then so be it. It seems to be the modern way.

I remember the initial story I read at the time said the builders hadn't J'd or otherwise captured the studs in the casting and the lead simply slid off them.

I found out later that I was misinformed.

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My recollection of the Drum keel failure was that the welds supporting the keels should have been full penetration welds which if properly done would have equaled the strength of the parent material.

What they got was a pair of fillet welds which allowed tension stress across the root of the fillets which in a fatigue situation gives about 10% of the strength of the parent material.

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4 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

My recollection of the Drum keel failure was that the welds supporting the keels should have been full penetration welds which if properly done would have equaled the strength of the parent material.

What they got was a pair of fillet welds which allowed tension stress across the root of the fillets which in a fatigue situation gives about 10% of the strength of the parent material.

TH. Agreed. They were British welders too, if I remember correctly. Ron Holland is originally from Onehunga in Auckland NZ, home to the Onehunga Pub, plus several others. The publican at that pub earned a Victoria Cross, if anyone wants more trivia. That was in the sixties, that the publican was there. Onehunga is at the inner most end of the Manakau Harbour. The old bridge got hit often by coastal freighters. 

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17 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

It was bad welding, not bad design.

"the boat lost its keel because the builder failed to heat treat the structure holding the keep to the yacht as specified by the designer, a necessary step after welding aluminum."

From Wikipedia, written by whom, Ron, Butch, you?

In any case by someone who doesn't understand much about aluminum construction and heat treatment.

 

17 hours ago, SloopJonB said:



Holland is one of the all time great designers.

"Here's a word you are apparently unfamiliar with.

You should study it.

Hyperbole".   quote SloopJonB   :rolleyes:
 
Sure, one of the great of his generation, of about 10 of them, IMHO.

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14 hours ago, Unkle Krusty said:

.,..

Drum had the top keel section made from aluminium, with a flat plate at the bottom. The keel was bolted to the plate. It was shown that the aluminum welds were not satisfactory. That is the way I remember it. Maybe someone has other info.

 " Drum had the top keel section made from aluminium, with a flat plate at the bottom. The keel was bolted to the plate." 

I believe that is a correct description. Does that type of design/construction make a lot of sense? Draw it out and look at it!

 

13 hours ago, Unkle Krusty said:

I used those numbers as an example. They are not the actual weights. There are three ways to research or remember the keel leaving Drum. News of the day, Inquiry, Google search. News of the day mentions possible welding problems. The Inquiry said it was welding problems, Google says it was welding problems.

There is at least one more way, by word of mouth, from people who were there actually.

I read the inquiry report. IMO, it seemed that initially Ron was on the hook, but he did an excellent job explaining how he made his design conclusions. It satisfied the inquiry people.

I have searched for that report previously, if you could tell me where to find it I would be grateful.

I used his numbers when adding weight to my dagger board boat. Drum also ran aground in the Bay of Islands NZ. Having said the above, if someone wants to believe it was a design flaw, then so be it. It seems to be the modern way.

Nothing to do with the modern way, it's glaring obvious, and I have it from a reliable old fashioned source, BTW.

And as I said before, bad welding may have been part of the problem, or rather exacerbatet the design and construction flaw. And btw, a good construction drawing will indicate the welding, did the enquiry report show those details?

 

 

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6 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

My recollection of the Drum keel failure was that the welds supporting the keels should have been full penetration welds which if properly done would have equaled the strength of the parent material.

What they got was a pair of fillet welds which allowed tension stress across the root of the fillets which in a fatigue situation gives about 10% of the strength of the parent material.

"which if properly done would have equaled the strength of the parent material."

Sorry Terry, with all respect for your usual excellent engineering insights, that statement is simply not true, or hardly ever, ever.

Aluminum 6061T6 for example will loose 30-50 % (or more) of its strength after welding. To get better results than that is a complicated matter.

 

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14 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I remember the initial story I read at the time said the builders hadn't J'd or otherwise captured the studs in the casting and the lead simply slid off them.

I found out later that I was misinformed.

I think that was the case with Martela OF

image.jpeg.9f157a3e9b6a843c9df6ab14296dc84b.jpeg

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50 minutes ago, mad said:

I think that was the case with Martela OF

image.jpeg.9f157a3e9b6a843c9df6ab14296dc84b.jpeg

Great picture, for sure!

Frers Maxi, build by Baltic Yachts. Hard to believe the keel bolts pulled out just like that, but entirely possible. At least one other Frers design lost its keel a few years earlier, there the reason was that the hull was simply bending too much. Could be the same with Martela, causing the fore and aft keel bolts to overstress, and then slowly pull out, then the next bolts, and finally total failure and belly flop. Just guessing here. ;)

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56 minutes ago, mad said:

I think that was the case with Martela OF

image.jpeg.9f157a3e9b6a843c9df6ab14296dc84b.jpeg

Very unique episode. I was told by a couple of the crew that no one got wet. They knew it was coming, they were nursing the boat along, all necessary gear on deck and when the big pop and gushhhhhh happened they all just climbed over the lifelines and as she rolled made they way onto the bottom.

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9 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Great picture, for sure!

Frers Maxi, build by Baltic Yachts. Hard to believe the keel bolts pulled out just like that, but entirely possible. At least one other Frers design lost its keel a few years earlier, there the reason was that the hull was simply bending too much. Could be the same with Martela, causing the fore and aft keel bolts to overstress, and then slowly pull out, then the next bolts, and finally total failure and belly flop. Just guessing here. ;)

Some of the guys didn't even get their feet wet, just climbed over the lifeline and walked onto the hull as she rolled over.  Story I heard was that the keel bolts had been slowly working their way out with progressive tightening at other stopovers, they were slowly wound out over time.........

Edit.

Bill beat me too it, its true as well, I knew a couple of the guys on board at the time.

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7 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Very unique episode. I was told by a couple of the crew that no one got wet. They knew it was coming, they were nursing the boat along, all necessary gear on deck and when the big pop and gushhhhhh happened they all just climbed over the lifelines and as she rolled made they way onto the bottom.

Pretty amazing feat, and just as well in that cold water. Suppose the boat or boats that rescued them were already on their way and close by.

Any one with a link to the whole story???

I did hear that in Drum's case, which happened suddenly and totally unexpected to them, that Phil Holland (Ron's brother) did also manage to climb onto the bottom, and stayed dry. But that was in relatively warm English summer temperature's. Some others stayed dry inside, at least for a while. Imagine if that would have happened at night, hate to think of that.

 

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13 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Pretty amazing feat, and just as well in that cold water. Suppose the boat or boats that rescued them were already on their way and close by.

Any one with a link to the whole story???

I did hear that in Drum's case, which happened suddenly and totally unexpected to them, that Phil Holland (Ron's brother) did also manage to climb onto the bottom, and stayed dry. But that was in relatively warm English summer temperature's. Some others stayed dry inside, at least for a while. Imagine if that would have happened at night, hate to think of that.

 

https://www.facebook.com/nyssearrudasailing.news/posts/volvo-ocean-race-legends-series-o-maxi-martela-of-1989-90/1715216485212744/

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6 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

From Wikipedia, written by whom, Ron, Butch, you?

In any case by someone who doesn't understand much about aluminum construction and heat treatment.

 

"Here's a word you are apparently unfamiliar with.

You should study it.

Hyperbole".   quote SloopJonB   :rolleyes:
 
Sure, one of the great of his generation, of about 10 of them, IMHO.

 

Yeah, I'm sure you know a lot more than the people who were there and the people who investigated it so we'll go with what you have to say.

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FB. Finding things like the inquiry report these days is about impossible, and or too time consuming for me. It was a few years ago. My memory is not fried, and generally fairly accurate. I paid attention at the time, and read the reports, and repeated what I remember here. If Ron had of been at fault in any way, that info would likely be readily available. There is none that I know off. Just the opposite. The inquiry folks were quite satisfied with the information he provided. It would be pushing it to argue otherwise.

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15 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Pretty amazing feat, and just as well in that cold water. Suppose the boat or boats that rescued them were already on their way and close by.

Any one with a link to the whole story???

I did hear that in Drum's case, which happened suddenly and totally unexpected to them, that Phil Holland (Ron's brother) did also manage to climb onto the bottom, and stayed dry. But that was in relatively warm English summer temperature's. Some others stayed dry inside, at least for a while. Imagine if that would have happened at night, hate to think of that.

 

Phil Holland DID manage to stay dry, along with (IIRC) at least one other. They were essential in the rescue of the rest of the crew, as they were able to pull them up onto the hull. The bottom was to slick for the swimmers to make it up unaided.

And the failure of the keel was due to poor welding of the spacer, I had access to the official findings report.

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14 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

 

Yeah, I'm sure you know a lot more than the people who were there and the people who investigated it so we'll go with what you have to say.

None of the people who were there and the people who investigated it seem to post in this thread. We have 2 reliable accounts of the final conclusion of the report, but not the whole picture. Since Ron Holland lives near you, why don't you go over and ask him how many keel structures like Drum he designed since that failure. Then also ask him why near sister ship Lion New Zealand's keel was done different in certain details.

Might as well ask him for the report of the official investigation, as well as the keel drawings while you are there.

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18 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Thanks for that, pretty amazing story really..

BTW, the link didn't quite work, but found this one:

https://m.facebook.com/nyssearrudasailing.news/posts/1715216485212744

Martela's keel was made in Germany by Speedwave. There was a problem fixing the bolts to the fin, which was steel. They hit an oil pipe during the first leg and the bolts slipped already then. The keel was fixed after that, but clearly not good enough.

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9 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

None of the people who were there and the people who investigated it seem to post in this thread. We have 2 reliable accounts of the final conclusion of the report, but not the whole picture. Since Ron Holland lives near you, why don't you go over and ask him how many keel structures like Drum he designed since that failure. Then also ask him why near sister ship Lion New Zealand's keel was done different in certain details.

Might as well ask him for the report of the official investigation, as well as the keel drawings while you are there.

Yeah, I'll get right on that.

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37 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Yeah, I'll get right on that.

These days, what is more important to me, is keeping the keel attached on my Viking 33. I only hit mud once last year, so my record is improving. I halved my bottom hits, and doubled my salmon catch. The 21 foot boat that I added weight to the keel, and later sold, hit a rock and sheared off the keel. I was keen to know where it sheared. Was near the hull, and not where I had been working. They retrieved the broken of bit and put it back together. Happened in Lake Cowichan. Boat is GOFF, if anyone knows it.

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Dick Durham of Yachting Monthly says, "I would not sail across an ocean in a boat without an integral keel."

 

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"Indeed, so concerned is the sport’s governing body, ISAF, about the incidences of keel failure that it has formed a Keel Structure Working Party to investigate the issue. Part of the group’s initial work was to develop a database of the reported failures. Currently, the list includes 72 cases since 1984, and in those 24 lives have been lost – a small number perhaps when compared with the many thousands of boats that have been built over this period, but unacceptable nonetheless."

https://www.yachtingworld.com/news/keel-failure-shocking-facts-60006

 

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1 hour ago, Unkle Krusty said:

These days, what is more important to me, is keeping the keel attached on my Viking 33. I only hit mud once last year, so my record is improving. I halved my bottom hits, and doubled my salmon catch. The 21 foot boat that I added weight to the keel, and later sold, hit a rock and sheared off the keel. I was keen to know where it sheared. Was near the hull, and not where I had been working. They retrieved the broken of bit and put it back together. Happened in Lake Cowichan. Boat is GOFF, if anyone knows it.

FWIW, back in the day when the V-33 was a current hot boat, one went on the bricks in Porlier Pass.

The keel was bent and they had to remove it.

It had to be cut off - even after a hit like that it failed to loosen enough to be removed otherwise. Word on the street at the time was that their keels were epoxied on.

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Is that what you really old guys call it now "keel Failure "  wink wink 

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8 hours ago, captain_crunch said:

Dick Durham of Yachting Monthly says, "I would not sail across an ocean in a boat without an integral keel."

 

Well that one had me rolling my eyes. Much overall respect to Dibley - but this one is stupid.

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2 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Well that one had me rolling my eyes.

"If that keel separates from the hull, that leads to the catastrophy.". :rolleyes:

 

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Drum and Ron Holland had separated long before the keel fell off, I think it's fair to credit him with the lines plan, but the eventual fit out was a more on the hoof affair, not the designers fault.

The keel manufacturer blamed the flexibility of the hull, an early kevlar carbon nomex affair, with possibly under spec'ed / not to plan fore and aft stiffness in the keel pan / mast step.   This caused a further problem with the (bomb proof) re-made aluminium spacer partially failing on the first leg, the short term solution to complete their lap being a fuck off big mild steel keel pan being bolted into the boat, which still keeps the keel on to this day.

Still miss the Whitbread, fastest finisher wins, the all or nothing glory days, pre volvo global trade rally.

(ref: Skip Novaks book, "One Watch at a Time" brilliant read, available on amazon, great man I would like to meet one day)

 

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2 hours ago, maxstaylock said:

(ref: Skip Novaks book, "One Watch at a Time" brilliant read, available on amazon, great man I would like to meet one day)

By referencing to it, do you mean all that "knowledge" in your somewhat garbled post is from Skip Novak's book ?

 

2 hours ago, maxstaylock said:

Still miss the Whitbread, fastest finisher wins, the all or nothing glory days, pre volvo global trade rally.

"fastest finisher wins", really ?

 

 

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On 4/24/2019 at 6:14 AM, mad said:

I think that was the case with Martela OF

image.jpeg.9f157a3e9b6a843c9df6ab14296dc84b.jpeg

Is this boat aground too?  The hull is sticking 'way out of the water. 

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Anyone that knows anything about the boat that ran aground at Seabrook or have you all used up all your energy on different boats in trouble?

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On 4/25/2019 at 7:06 PM, Rasputin22 said:

image.png.df1591041575d959164e3217c6676d21.png

That brings back memory.   I remember them coming to Tampa a few months (I think,) before that to be the Olympic Torch barge between St. Petersburg and Tampa on its way to Atlanta for the Olympics.    They came up the Hillsborough river and did a "fast pass" in front of the Convention center before docking to set the torch off for its next relay.   Then I next read that they sank out in the Gulf.

Anyone remember what was determined about the failure, was it the keel structure, bulb, keel bolts or the sump grid structure that failed?

- Stumbling

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13 hours ago, PaulK said:

Is this boat aground too?  The hull is sticking 'way out of the water. 

Unlikely, it’s in the Southern Ocean. :wacko:

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2 hours ago, BjarkeMC said:

Anyone that knows anything about the boat that ran aground at Seabrook or have you all used up all your energy on different boats in trouble?

It really looks very much like one of those Kraken's, making a mockery of the integral  keel hypothesis.

And isn't the Kraken a Scandinavian/Danish thing?

and we do like Danish tits, BTW.

 

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5 hours ago, stumblingthunder said:

That brings back memory.   I remember them coming to Tampa a few months (I think,) before that to be the Olympic Torch barge between St. Petersburg and Tampa on its way to Atlanta for the Olympics.    They came up the Hillsborough river and did a "fast pass" in front of the Convention center before docking to set the torch off for its next relay.   Then I next read that they sank out in the Gulf.

Anyone remember what was determined about the failure, was it the keel structure, bulb, keel bolts or the sump grid structure that failed?

- Stumbling

    I raced against that boat the year before I think in the CORC or CORT or whatever they were calling it at the time. I met the owner who was somehow kin to a good friend of mine from New Orleans in whose house on St John I had been living. I got the tour of the boat which was pretty impressive for its very nice interior yet the boat was still smokin' out on the racecourse. They got a lot of grief about the engine running during racing as evidenced by a steady stream of exhaust/cooling water spewing out the transom. They said it was just the generator running to keep the Faux Chamonix interior coverings from getting damp when hauling big wet spi's down for packing while racing. Maybe it was really the bilge pump trying to keep up with the keep leaks!?

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