Sign in to follow this  
Kris Cringle

The worst ideas on old boats:

Recommended Posts

This is the winner on my 1961 Alden Challenger:

341658491_Hatframedamagedcut_.thumb.jpg.309b55502970157ba53186fe5d068b2c.jpg

Alden contracted with the Halmatic yard in the UK to cast the hulls and decks on the 52 Design # 949's. Structural 'Hat Frames' were were built of layers of glass around an aluminum former to distribute the load of the chain plates to the hulls. Just before the solid glass decks went onto the hulls, Halmatic slipped the backing plates for the chainplates, into the hat frames, then the deck was bolted to the hull flange and the whole joint closed in resin and glass. The problem was, the used mild steel for the backing plates. Halmatic probably thought, they are entombed and will never get wet. Water finds a way. 

 

I've replaced a few backing plates. The usual method isn' too difficult: Cut an incision into the side of the hollow hat frame, pull out the rusted, rotted mild steel backing plate, install a new SS plate, then glass it all back up. 

But the backing plate in this hat frame I found behind the ceiling and furniture in the head of my boat, expanded 4x's or more and burst the hat frame from inside. I had to grind most of it out because of the broken layers where the hat frame actually cracked open. 

Hatframe_ground_.thumb.JPG.1742073406a18728b97e91b5a54f9fdb.JPG

With no hat frame, only the top to start the shape (which was ground to a scarf of about 8, 10 to 1), I cut a mold out of a scrap of 4x4", wrapped it in plastic. The forward side open, once it cured I removed the mold and installed the new SS backing plate. Then I could lay another layer of 10 oz. cloth over the whole thing to form a hat frame to layer up a new one. 

502887855_newhatframebuilding.thumb.jpg.ebed4aada3509be4d5bc01651832b66d.jpg

This all cured, the new backing plate installed and epoxied inside, the new bolts wrapped in Teflon tape, I started the layup of a total of 10 layers of 10 oz. cloth. Most went on before curing to assure a chemical bond.  

I installed some cleats on the bulkheads and strong backs. From those I kept a post under pressure to assure the hull was fair (by springing a batten outside) during the process. 

Interspersed between the 10 oz. I laid 3 layers of 24 oz woven roving. The middle layer of the roving was glassed on the bias. 

1717631437_newhatframebuilding-3.thumb.jpg.a17ce0c767c38b57df5b6f80eba4f1ad.jpg

Finally, layer 10 and a full cure before removing the supports. The lay up was longer than original going well over the 'rib' below in full thickness. The structure is a tad thicker than the 1/4" of the original that I cut out. When tapped with a hammer, it rings like steel. 

2006817048_Finishedhatframeandchainplate.thumb.jpg.29d4e2341016a53133aaeaf5a7288568.jpg

The work wasn't as bad as it looks. Hopefully as I replace the last few, they will only require the side cut method that saves the hat frame. The head needed a good cleaning anyway. 

1486989652_Headwork.thumb.jpg.8a3973154cdcba52bb35b464556722d1.jpg

Any other terrible old boat ideas that are as bad as this one? 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't wait to see the completed project! Any exterior photos to share?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I admire your love of a good boat

I have owned lots of crappish ones

Bad ideas are buying a boat from a glue gun cowboy

also

as a serial owner of westerlies floppy head-linings that have failed because the foam rubber has given up the ghost have also been a curse

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

Can't wait to see the completed project! Any exterior photos to share?

 Alden's first fiberglass hull and deck, the designers were sort of split between the future and the past. They are nice old boats  full of peculiarities like this because of the new materials they had to embrace. Alden quickly mastered the change, but they never stopped building in wood, as well. 

 

Nobody to blame and thank, the builders and designers are all gone now. 

1684180779_Cairntablelampboatdusk.thumb.jpg.873f15e8193739fc9a912e612542611d.jpg

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, there was one of Vanderbilt's AC boats that had a steel hull, copper sheathing for bottom anti-fouling, an aluminum deck (to save weight), bronze fittings and cast iron ballast.  

The whole thing sizzled into powder in about 6 months.  

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Well, there was one of Vanderbilt's AC boats that had a steel hull, copper sheathing for bottom anti-fouling, an aluminum deck (to save weight), bronze fittings and cast iron ballast.  

The whole thing sizzled into powder in about 6 months.  

On the other hand, it did manage to win the America's cup in that time frame...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it was purpose built.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Well, there was one of Vanderbilt's AC boats that had a steel hull, copper sheathing for bottom anti-fouling, an aluminum deck (to save weight), bronze fittings and cast iron ballast.  

The whole thing sizzled into powder in about 6 months.  

a floating boat-shaped battery.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The worst I’d say is using any red oak in place of white oak for any purpose.

Especially laying up a laminated keel and laminated frames and looking for any longevity. 

Red oak sucks up water and rots where white oak has intercellular barriers that prevents water intake through osmosis. 

I have a 26’ catboat  hull laid up in that fashion. Luckily, the whole keel and frames were preservative soaked and epoxied and have not suffered any loss of structural integrity after 40 years. 

The PO said he couldn’t find any local white oak so he bought the red oak and knew he would have to soak the wood through with the old 70’s preservatives.

It worked..

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The complete lack of any kind of ergonomics in the cockpit area in the 70s/80 production boats 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also my engine is mounted on 2 4x4s that were fibreglassed over and then the mounts lag bolted in. Of course waters got in and rotted out the inside.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

On the other hand, it did manage to win the America's cup in that time frame...

That was Colin Chapman's theory of a perfect racing vehicle - disintegrates, completely used up as it crosses the finish line.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glassing metal - even S/S into the laminate, as detailed by the OP was a terrible idea.

I can understand how they figured it was buried so deep that it would be O/K but they should have consulted someone who lived in a rain forest first.

They would have learned that you can never entirely keep water out, you can only trap it in.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Around here (Canadian east coast) there are lots of old wooden fishing hulls and not a few wooden schooners and sailboats. The hulls that were built to anything less than yacht-standard were typically pine on oak with galvanized fastenings and the designed lifespan was 25 -30 years. Hull getting leaky and soft? No problem - strip her down to bare wood (or as close as you can get with a mini-grinder) and put a few layers of glass on her...with polyester resin, of course. Makes a good party boat for a couple of years. Certain death for a wood hull.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wauquiez deciding that everything - I mean EVERYTHING - from deck fittings to seacocks - must be entombed in glass to meet their interpretation of a Lloyds standard. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Glassing metal - even S/S into the laminate, as detailed by the OP was a terrible idea.

I can understand how they figured it was buried so deep that it would be O/K but they should have consulted someone who lived in a rain forest first.

They would have learned that you can never entirely keep water out, you can only trap it in.

 

Some time, long after the last boat was launched,  the problem with the mild plate steel backing plates was realized. The backing plates which are not glassed into the hat frames are in an air tight void. Alden added one of many sheets to the blue prints, to drill holes into the hollow in the bottoms of the hat frames, to allow them to drain. I never saw one of those sheets but I have a couple of an original small hat frame, likely a mizzen stay, from 1959 when they were designing the boats. I still drill this drainage hole or clear the hole, even after the new SS backing plates are installed. You make me think, I should drill a fairly large hole to allow air movement as well as drainage. Either way, it's my last trip into this space. :)

1818626583_949Hatframedetail2copy.jpg.497e0dfe27bcced7bbbcbddc23c2dba7.jpg

This is the typical cut to remove a rusted backing plate. 

1091848156_Chainplate1-2copy.thumb.jpg.a9a751946a3e7be73da64036e571b92b.jpg

After the old corroded plate, often in pieces is removed, the new SS plate is slid into the air space. Then following correct glass practice, the cut is repaired. Here's a typical boat yard repair. 

916790210_Chainplate3-2copy.thumb.jpg.9c5fb564fb546d9f64866dceb3ede9b4.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure Kris's fix is going to last longer than he's going to own the boat (cuz he sounds kind of crusty, like me) but I really think I would have gone with bronze or silicone bronze for those glassed in backing plates. I'd be afraid that sealing stainless with epoxy is only going to restrict access to oxygen and make it go active. Maybe I'm just over complicating things-I often do, but I'd worry about that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

 Alden's first fiberglass hull and deck, the designers were sort of split between the future and the past. They are nice old boats  full of peculiarities like this because of the new materials they had to embrace. Alden quickly mastered the change, but they never stopped building in wood, as well. 

 

Nobody to blame and thank, the builders and designers are all gone now. 

1684180779_Cairntablelampboatdusk.thumb.jpg.873f15e8193739fc9a912e612542611d.jpg

What a beauty! Thanks for sharing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Early Sabres had their chainplates encapsulated in glass. That's one reason I steered clear of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Early Sabres had their chainplates encapsulated in glass. That's one reason I steered clear of them.

??  Don't think this is true.  Certainly was not the case on my 1980 Sabre 30. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, monsoon said:

??  Don't think this is true.  Certainly was not the case on my 1980 Sabre 30. 

Older than that.  60's and 70's and Sabre wasn't the only one.

Remember, I'm poor and usually shopped for boats that were built in the 60's and 70's.  ;)   Upgrading to my '82 Tartan was the purest stroke of luck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

the worst thing about old boats is often  the old engines

 

The trick to that, is to use them as little as possible while lavishing love, attention and praise upon them. ;)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dylan winter said:

the worst thing about old boats is often  the old engines

 

I feel conflicted about old engines. On the one hand they are simple, less sensitive to contamination than some high pressure common rail system, and once you've converted them to common accessories, it's less of a treasure hunt. 

On the other hand new engines are quieter, lighter, more fuel efficient, leak less oil - basically everything an engine is supposed to do - and can tell you where it hurts with a OBDII reader. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

 Alden's first fiberglass hull and deck, the designers were sort of split between the future and the past. They are nice old boats  full of peculiarities like this because of the new materials they had to embrace. Alden quickly mastered the change, but they never stopped building in wood, as well. 

 

Nobody to blame and thank, the builders and designers are all gone now. 

I beg to differ. Rust and leaks existed before fiberglass.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Elegua said:

I feel conflicted about old engines. On the one hand they are simple, less sensitive to contamination than some high pressure common rail system, and once you've converted them to common accessories, it's less of a treasure hunt. 

On the other hand new engines are quieter, lighter, more fuel efficient, leak less oil - basically everything an engine is supposed to do - and can tell you where it hurts with a OBDII reader. 

Beta diesels have earned a good reputation. Simple, robust and easily maintained. If/when my Universal dies, I'm going Beta... or electric but probably Beta.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ajax said:

Beta diesels have earned a good reputation. Simple, robust and easily maintained. If/when my Universal dies, I'm going Beta... or electric but probably Beta.

Yeah, I've heard that too - hard to go wrong with a Kubota long/short block and Beta is good enough to tell you the non-marinized part numbers.  If I had to re-power today, that's what I'd pick. 

I rebuilt my Perkins 4-108 about 6 seasons ago. For better or worse, it probably will run for a while yet. The added sounddown takes it from very loud to just loud, it doesn't leak oil, has stopped eating starter motors after the first year, and starts on the first spin - I can't really complain. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have gone from keeping old diesels to putting in new Yanmars to keeping old diesels again, it’s a learning curve.

New motors generally benefited the next owner more than me.

OTOH there is no way I would waste money on rebuilding my old Volvo 2003 if it breaks down, it’s cheaper to replace it.

There are a couple of recent YouTube’s on repairing old VP 2003’s which are quite interesting, but I have a spare VP 2030 in the shed in case this one goes on me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Ajax said:

Older than that.  60's and 70's and Sabre wasn't the only one.

Remember, I'm poor and usually shopped for boats that were built in the 60's and 70's.  ;)   Upgrading to my '82 Tartan was the purest stroke of luck.

Not especially important, but I still think you're not right. Sabre's first boat was the 28 in 1972.  Here's a pic of a '76 and you can see where the chainplates are bolted to the bulkhead. Was exactly the same in my 30 and in the several 34s I've 

Picture clipping.pictClipping

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Elegua said:

Yeah, I've heard that too - hard to go wrong with a Kubota long/short block and Beta is good enough to tell you the non-marinized part numbers.  If I had to re-power today, that's what I'd pick. 

I rebuilt my Perkins 4-108 about 6 seasons ago. For better or worse, it probably will run for a while yet. The added sounddown takes it from very loud to just loud, it doesn't leak oil, has stopped eating starter motors after the first year, and starts on the first spin - I can't really complain. 

 

I've noticed re-powers are becoming the biggest issue on many older boats for sale. As the curve of the value of older boats continues it's direction - down, the price of new machinery coupled to the going price for marine skilled labor continues in the other direction. Nothing new but the two tracks are growing farther and farther apart. 

 

As these opposed $$ curves continue in different directions, the length of old used boat that is worth less than a current re-power, is growing. 

 

This has resulted in more and more used marine engines for sale, and the value appears to be rising. I've seen 'used' engine prices that make me burst out laughing. Then I think of someone with an older 32+'er, with a worn out or blown engine. Choices are: Boat yard re-power :more than the value of many old 35'ers.

 

The worst part of this perceived (on my part) trend is that these boats, worth some $$ with a working engine, are now being picked up by unknowing newbs.

 

These old neglected boats may get used as housing in this stage - for a while, but they are on a way one trip to the grinder.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Carbon (when it was a new thing) 16’ skiffs with aluminium backing plates glassed in. 

Salt water, carbon glass, aluminium. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, monsoon said:

Not especially important, but I still think you're not right. Sabre's first boat was the 28 in 1972.  Here's a pic of a '76 and you can see where the chainplates are bolted to the bulkhead. Was exactly the same in my 30 and in the several 34s I've 

Picture clipping.pictClipping

Dang, I believe you're right. I'd *swear* that I read posts on Sailnet regarding encapsulated chainplates on older Sabres but I can't find a single one, anywhere, now.

My apologies for spreading misinformation and thanks for setting me right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

 

I've noticed re-powers are becoming the biggest issue on many older boats for sale. As the curve of the value of older boats continues it's direction - down, the price of new machinery coupled to the going price for marine skilled labor continues in the other direction. Nothing new but the two tracks are growing farther and farther apart. 

 

As these opposed $$ curves continue in different directions, the length of old used boat that is worth less than a current re-power, is growing. 

 

This has resulted in more and more used marine engines for sale, and the value appears to be rising. I've seen 'used' engine prices that make me burst out laughing. Then I think of someone with an older 32+'er, with a worn out or blown engine. Choices are: Boat yard re-power :more than the value of many old 35'ers.

 

The worst part of this perceived (on my part) trend is that these boats, worth some $$ with a working engine, are now being picked up by unknowing newbs.

 

These old neglected boats may get used as housing in this stage - for a while, but they are on a way one trip to the grinder.  

 

 

Interesting - I wonder what I could get for my pretty fresh Perkins? 

I was surprised at how small the delta was between between re-power and a proper re-build once you add in the cost of re-doing the engine bay, replace the accessories and all the hoses. 

No money will ever be recovered on these older boats. I don't even think about it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In our area if you have an old engine you had better be ready to work on it yourself. Getting a marine mechanic down to the dock to even look at an old out of production motor is difficult. 

I had read that all Island Packets had glassed in chain plates. For the way the boats are used it is probably not a big deal, but why they continued the practice in the modern era is a mystery. Apparently titanium is a decent alternative, more expensive but corrosion is a non issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/19/2019 at 11:46 AM, steele said:

In our area if you have an old engine you had better be ready to work on it yourself. Getting a marine mechanic down to the dock to even look at an old out of production motor is difficult. 

I had read that all Island Packets had glassed in chain plates. For the way the boats are used it is probably not a big deal, but why they continued the practice in the modern era is a mystery. Apparently titanium is a decent alternative, more expensive but corrosion is a non issue.

Not sure if all, but some Cape Dorys used glassed in steel rebar to reinforce their chain plate areas.  Seemed like saving pennies on an expensive and otherwise well put together boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, and the way Morgan 27's were constructed.  One of my favorite boats, but the stock inboard chain plates were just through bolted to the deck with some small backing plates.  The boat would seem to fold up in the middle with big puckers on each side of the hull.   The cabin sole was a nice teak and holly plywood but laminated onto a weird fiberglass mesh and marble dust / polyester filler assuring it would get water saturated and rot out.  A lot of work to fix those issues.  Getting the floor up was like an archeological dig.  Sweet sailing boat though!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dynastarts.

Dynastart-Siba-Volvo-Penta-MB10-001.jpg

It's a starter! It's a charger! It sucks at both!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

Dynastarts.

Dynastart-Siba-Volvo-Penta-MB10-001.jpg

It's a starter! It's a charger! It sucks at both!

Oops.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was a cool idea that failed bigly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a boat with both a dynastart and an alternator strapped on a Volvo diesel. The dynastart worked fine as a starter (small diesel) and managed to keep the start battery charged. The alternator charged the house bank. I guess there was some redundancy built in, as the diesel could be hand-cranked if the dynastart failed and the dynastart could provide some low level charging if the alternator failed. But it was an expensive system, with all Bosch components including the voltage regulator/starter relay. So, yeah, maybe not the worst idea on an old boat, but far from the best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 4:38 PM, Sail4beer said:

The worst I’d say is using any red oak in place of white oak for any purpose.

Especially laying up a laminated keel and laminated frames and looking for any longevity. 

Red oak sucks up water and rots where white oak has intercellular barriers that prevents water intake through osmosis. 

I had no idea. This is helpful to know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Lex Teredo said:

I had no idea. This is helpful to know.

It's true. I watched a demonstration of this on "Tips from a Shipwright" with the Bob Ross of wooden boat building- Lou Sauzedde. Fascinating stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Ajax said:
1 hour ago, Lex Teredo said:

I had no idea. This is helpful to know.

It's true. I watched a demonstration of this on "Tips from a Shipwright" with the Bob Ross of wooden boat building- Lou Sauzedde. Fascinating stuff.

In the real world, it's pretty interesting to take a 3-foot length of straight-grained red oak and blow through it. Kinda weird feeling your breath coming out of the other end of a stick. .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

In the real world, it's pretty interesting to take a 3-foot length of straight-grained red oak and blow through it. Kinda weird feeling your breath coming out of the other end of a stick. .

You can blow bubbles in a pail of water with a red oak straw, and capillary action will make the water climb right up the straws in reverse. White oak has tyloses blocking the pores; tyloses are basically ear wax for trees. But not all species with tyloses are rot-resistant, and not all rot-resistant trees have tyloses. Other defenses include gums; production of turpenes, hexanes, or phenols; and uptake of silicates (teak).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

You can blow bubbles in a pail of water with a red oak straw, and capillary action will make the water climb right up the straws in reverse. White oak has tyloses blocking the pores; tyloses are basically ear wax for trees. But not all species with tyloses are rot-resistant, and not all rot-resistant trees have tyloses. Other defenses include gums; production of turpenes, hexanes, or phenols; and uptake of silicates (teak).

Thank you for this excellent information.  We would not want our wood going all soft and mushy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps McDonalds can move over to red oak straws...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

Perhaps McDonalds can move over to red oak straws...

Maybe it would act as a filter for the sludge they serve...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are a lot of varieties of oak, and lumber can be misidentified. The saying about red oak was "8 years or 80", probably depending on what exact variety  it was. 

Pete Seeger`s Clearwater had its frames replaced after about 8 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

There are a lot of varieties of oak, and lumber can be misidentified. The saying about red oak was "8 years or 80", probably depending on what exact variety  it was. 

Pete Seeger`s Clearwater had its frames replaced after about 8 years.

Oak in particular can be hard to speciate. To the point that all the oak in my shop (not very much of it -- no call for it these days) gets crayoned RED or WHT as it goes in the rack, for future reference. Almost the only woods I need to label. Some red oak is very white & some white oak shades reddish. Pore size & distribution and the blow-thru test are two indicators, as is the size and appearance of medullary rays. At some point, the range of qualities between trees of a single species can be greater than the difference between two species.   I.e., you might get some really strong, dense, rot-resistant red oak, or some sappy weedy white oak without functioning tyloses. And any wood repeatedly exposed to water and air is gonna rot eventually.

All oaks smell like cat piss; red oak more so.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/25/2019 at 12:05 PM, Ajax said:

the Bob Ross of wooden boat building- Lou Sauzedde.

I don't know if Lou would appreciate that.

image.png.841ae1d3197ccdbe9806f23df7b0b49c.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Smoking a joint and watching Bob Ross was fun. It was almost hypnotic the way he could produce a completed painting in 1/2 hour, complete with several happy little trees.

His process absolutely defined the word Facile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He could have done black velvet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Certainly - but not nudes. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had to go to Las Vegas on business a few times in the 90’s.  The hotel I stayed at actually had a store that sold portraits on black velvet of: Tom Selleck, Don Johnson, and Jeezus. Blue-haired ladies were carting them out of there at a steady clip.

 

If they’d had Alfred E. Neuman, I’d have gone for it. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps it doesn't qualify for one of the "worst" ideas, but I find the overuse of dark wood below on many older boats makes the cabin dark and suffocating. Truth be told, the Euro/airport lounge interiors you see on a lot of new boats (rarely with any sea berths or handholds) don't do much for me either. The old mainsail boom roller furling systems weren't so hot. Gasoline inboards are just fine, until they're not... and then it can get real bad, real quick.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, toddster said:

I had to go to Las Vegas on business a few times in the 90’s.  The hotel I stayed at actually had a store that sold portraits on black velvet of: Tom Selleck, Don Johnson, and Jeezus. Blue-haired ladies were carting them out of there at a steady clip.

 

If they’d had Alfred E. Neuman, I’d have gone for it. 

Or Burt Reynolds.

- Stumbling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, stumblingthunder said:

Or Burt Reynolds.

- Stumbling

Oh, and Elvis, of course.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, toddster said:

Oh, and Elvis, of course.  

All three, Jesus, Elvis and Burt, together on black velvet!

- Stumbling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do it as a wrap on a boat.

Not real velvet of course but they could get the look.

Bull, what do you think of it on your H-Boat?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/22/2019 at 10:43 AM, bridhb said:

Not sure if all, but some Cape Dorys used glassed in steel rebar to reinforce their chain plate areas.  Seemed like saving pennies on an expensive and otherwise well put together boat.

Really? Which ones? I worked there and never heard or saw anything like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fabricating the new hat frame structure meant removing the 'furniture' around it. The good thing about really old boats is they were all stick built. The bad thing is most of the little bronze wood screws, now nearly 60 years old, don't UN-screw. You can waste a lot of time fiddling (probably where the word fettling comes from - or vice versa?), with them. I have no patience and find something electric that will cut it. Mostly I use a multi tool and cut from the back side.

 

I took the linen locker facade - doors and all - out in one piece. 

681337498_Headwork.thumb.jpg.0f850044aa354d07a4597f3559c54cea.jpg

While taking it out, it took a few minutes of twisting and turning the whole piece, a clunky Rubiks cube, until I found a way that it would back out.

Ha! I stopped right there and took a photo of the moment (now upside down for some reason): 

IMG_1757.thumb.JPG.52b7be6f3ba5deb0d72a04c4154376b4.JPG

With rain and cold the norm this spring, I put an hour or so in every few days, under the cover.  Sure enough, it wouldn't go back in and I remembered the pic. Iphone, the new most important tool in your pocket. 

 

The facade, sink and stuff, I took to my warm shop to refurbish.

 

This type of work - restoration, away from the carnage onboard, is good for my head.

 

A little sanding and a couple coats of varnish, a coat of white enamel, easy stuff. The original THOR sink is bullet proof and looks like new after a little Brasso.

 

The sink fixtures,  salvaged from an old brownstone in Brooklyn by a BIL, got new washers and stem packing and a quick buff. Worthless in a bathroom today, these ancient fixtures: 4 turns to fully open, are great water savers on a boat.  

 

With rain pelting the cover yesterday, I reconnected the plumbing. Good bye Top Hate Frame, have a nice life back there behind the towels.

 1728280024_Headre-installed_.thumb.jpg.ef26c57310bc27979e508c981f487fb0.jpg 

 

 

 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, DrewR said:

Really? Which ones? I worked there and never heard or saw anything like that.

https://www.sailfeed.com/2012/03/this-is-not-what-a-chainplate-should-look-like/   and this guy likes the rusty backing plates:  https://missionmariah.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/in-defense-of-the-cape-dory-chainplate-design/

And correctly, I have not seen this myself.  I owned two CD's, a tyhoon and a 22, both which were small enough to probably not require much chainplate reinforcement if any and I never had any problems.  I did personally see a fairly new CD 30 that pulled the deck away from the hull in the chainplate area and was repaired under warranty after a lot of fuss.

You working there would certainly know more about it than I do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As you all probably know, stainless steel, even 316, doesn't really like being sealed up and wet.  Add a little organics and scratch the surface and it can rust like crazy. Just look at my old rudder shaft.

That said, my 1975 Soverel 36 had chainplates glassed into the hull, with strands of roving fed through holes in the plates..  During a major refit in late 90s early 2000s (like: gutted the boat, added structural foam coring above the waterline and additional laminates below, and built all new interior and install all new systems...stupid, I know), I was worried about them and drilled through the interior hull near the bottom of one. Water drained out, a LOT of water.  

I sighed and cut them all out from the inside.  Imagine my shock when the first one came out shiny without a speck of corrosion.  So did all the others.  I don't know what alloy they used, but I strongly suspect it was not a "stock" stainless alloy.  So, maybe it wasn't as stupid as I thought for them to install them that way. 

I still spent a lot of time redoing them, and am more confident with their present configuration.  I used the same chainplates, but inserted sst threaded "backing plates" into their locations in the hull, glassed over those, then bolted through the chainplate holes into the backing plates (multiple large bolts), leaving the chainplates on the interior surface of the hull.  It moved them inboard a half inch on deck, but who cares?  Now I will be able to see if any water is penetrating the deck.  The "backing plates" are separated entirely from the deck, so no leak worries there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, SVArcturus said:

As you all probably know, stainless steel, even 316, doesn't really like being sealed up and wet.  Add a little organics and scratch the surface and it can rust like crazy. Just look at my old rudder shaft.

That said, my 1975 Soverel 36 had chainplates glassed into the hull, with strands of roving fed through holes in the plates..  During a major refit in late 90s early 2000s (like: gutted the boat, added structural foam coring above the waterline and additional laminates below, and built all new interior and install all new systems...stupid, I know), I was worried about them and drilled through the interior hull near the bottom of one. Water drained out, a LOT of water.  

I sighed and cut them all out from the inside.  Imagine my shock when the first one came out shiny without a speck of corrosion.  So did all the others.  I don't know what alloy they used, but I strongly suspect it was not a "stock" stainless alloy.  So, maybe it wasn't as stupid as I thought for them to install them that way. 

I still spent a lot of time redoing them, and am more confident with their present configuration.  I used the same chainplates, but inserted sst threaded "backing plates" into their locations in the hull, glassed over those, then bolted through the chainplate holes into the backing plates (multiple large bolts), leaving the chainplates on the interior surface of the hull.  It moved them inboard a half inch on deck, but who cares?  Now I will be able to see if any water is penetrating the deck.  The "backing plates" are separated entirely from the deck, so no leak worries there.

Yes I've heard that. Tough choice: Alden cried foul on the mild steel claiming they didn't know Halmatic used mild steel for the backing plates. Decades later, Alden advised drilling the top hat frames to allow them to drain. Would Alden have preferred Halmatic used Stainless steel instead? I wonder that but all the Alden heads are now gone. 

 

At any rate, before I put the old ceiling back over the new hat frame and chainplate (with new SS screws and trim washers thu the wood slats, for easy-ish inspection), I drilled 2,  1/4" holes in the hollow, one below the backing plate and one at the top. Not exactly ventilated but not sealed air tight, and if any water gets in it can drain (and the 1/4" holes are large enough not to foul). 

 

What is the life span of a 1961 fiberglass hull? When will we know? Then assuming the design is worth (stays popular) keeping up all the other parts in the future(?), what is the modern - forever - solution to connecting a main mast upper port stay, to this area of the hull, inside a linen locker? 

353152016_Headre-installedcloseupsink_.thumb.jpg.1aa5b16ce387b0f6719bc1c75473be25.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/27/2019 at 12:54 PM, Ishmael said:

You could flock it and get pretty close. We're going to need a lot of spray glue.

98k1003s2.jpg

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=44669&cat=1,250,43298,43300,44669

The cabin overhead of my old Aphrodite 101 was a fuzzy glued on material pretty close to flocking. It looked good in the '70's, but by the time 30 years of mildew had done its job I wanted it gone. But it was not coming unstuck. In lieu of grinding I decided it would be a great gluing substrate. I should have thought of doing a mural...  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/30/2019 at 7:24 AM, Oceanconcepts said:

But it was not coming unstuck.

That stuff is the worst.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 6:24 AM, Oceanconcepts said:

The cabin overhead of my old Aphrodite 101 was a fuzzy glued on material pretty close to flocking. It looked good in the '70's, but by the time 30 years of mildew had done its job I wanted it gone. But it was not coming unstuck. In lieu of grinding I decided it would be a great gluing substrate. I should have thought of doing a mural...  

My 27ft motorboat built 1969 for the hire fleets, had originally, mostly formica lining (on chipboard :wacko:in some places!!!!), at some point in it's life that was covered with short pile synthetic carpet. Cream, light brown and dark brown. All of which I've been able to lift a corner and then pull to remove it.  Except....

The exterior of the Toilet /|Shower Compartment, has dark brown carpet... I don't know what glue they've used, but it's seriously looking like it will be easier to replace the bulkhead rather than get that carpet off..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also had some sort of weird, suede/fuzzy shit glued to the overhead of my pilot bunk. Nasty after 35 years.

I stripped it off this winter and I'm looking to cover the bare fiberglass with a thin, Arex panel or just some sort of thin, white plastic panel so that it looks like the rest of the cabin overhead. Thank God Tartan limited the use of that stuff to just 2 very small areas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I also had some sort of weird, suede/fuzzy shit glued to the overhead of my pilot bunk. Nasty after 35 years.

I stripped it off this winter and I'm looking to cover the bare fiberglass with a thin, Arex panel or just some sort of thin, white plastic panel so that it looks like the rest of the cabin overhead. Thank God Tartan limited the use of that stuff to just 2 very small areas.

Tartan... you could have been looking up at...

th[6].jpg

(Loud McCleod Tartan)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Q said:

Tartan... you could have been looking up at...

th[6].jpg

(Loud McCleod Tartan)

In the early 70's I had a pair of fat pants in that exact Tartan. :o:blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ajax said:

I also had some sort of weird, suede/fuzzy shit glued to the overhead of my pilot bunk. Nasty after 35 years.

I stripped it off this winter and I'm looking to cover the bare fiberglass with a thin, Arex panel or just some sort of thin, white plastic panel so that it looks like the rest of the cabin overhead. Thank God Tartan limited the use of that stuff to just 2 very small areas.

My West Wight Potter featured a headliner made out of that mouse fur stuff and glued up with mastic. Amazingly tenacious stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The cushions in my mid 70s Paceship 26 were upholstered in an orange version of that Tartan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

In the early 70's I had a pair of fat pants in that exact Tartan. :o:blink:

Bellbottoms with huge cuffs?  I'm just guessing, of course.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/19/2019 at 11:29 AM, Elegua said:

These old neglected boats may get used as housing in this stage - for a while, but they are on a way one trip to the grinder.  

 

I am glad you're not including boats like yours, i.e. old but cared for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My H-Boat had a lot of weird crap attached to the interior with contact cement, some of it like indoor/outdoor carpet (hull liner) and some of it a perforated foam material (head liner). I ripped it all out, cleaned up the residue of the contact cement, and painted it. A nasty job but well worth it. Not the best Before & After, but you get the idea: clean, painted surfaces vs. fuzzy, mildew traps.

Before:

673039026_H-BoatWarwick6.jpg.52465bbed17bc3c87613a644c30929f2.jpg

After:

IMG_1931.jpg.16d0090e43f4ddca503251b39e0946ee.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, monsoon said:

Bellbottoms with huge cuffs?  I'm just guessing, of course.

Exactamundo. :D

Actually, not so much bell bottoms - they were wide all the way up hence the moniker Fat Pants.

I could have upholstered a 20 footer with all the fabric in those things. People could hear them from two blocks away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Bull City said:

My H-Boat had a lot of weird crap attached to the interior with contact cement, some of it like indoor/outdoor carpet (hull liner) and some of it a perforated foam material (head liner). I ripped it all out, cleaned up the residue of the contact cement, and painted it. A nasty job but well worth it. Not the best Before & After, but you get the idea: clean, painted surfaces vs. fuzzy, mildew traps.

Before:

673039026_H-BoatWarwick6.jpg.52465bbed17bc3c87613a644c30929f2.jpg

After:

IMG_1931.jpg.16d0090e43f4ddca503251b39e0946ee.jpg

That stick on carpet stuff is referred to as mouse fur round here.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, olaf hart said:

That stick on carpet stuff is referred to as mouse fur round here.....

Similar odor, no doubt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After looking at loads of neglected old boats, the naked fiberglass liner (with a few stains you just just clean up) looked like a good deal to me.  Call me a foot-Philistine. 

And the overhead too.  There’s a nice blank textured rectangle molded into the ceiling of the salon.  Laying on the settee, you think about what sort of artwork to frame in it.  Maybe project a movie onto it.  Projection of the globe? Maybe a bit presumptuous.  Moldy?  Just wipe it off.  

Been thinking about an iPad bracket to break up the view over the v-berth... 21st century telltale and porn uh, art film viewer.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Bull City said:

I am glad you're not including boats like yours, i.e. old but cared for.

That exact quote is from Kris, but I fully agree with your sentiments. Boats can live as long as we care to care for them. I'll care for mine as long as I am able and as long as it is the right platform for what I want to do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Bull City said:

My H-Boat had a lot of weird crap attached to the interior with contact cement, some of it like indoor/outdoor carpet (hull liner) and some of it a perforated foam material (head liner). I ripped it all out, cleaned up the residue of the contact cement, and painted it. A nasty job but well worth it. Not the best Before & After, but you get the idea: clean, painted surfaces vs. fuzzy, mildew traps.

Before:

673039026_H-BoatWarwick6.jpg.52465bbed17bc3c87613a644c30929f2.jpg

After:

IMG_1931.jpg.16d0090e43f4ddca503251b39e0946ee.jpg

What  was your method for removing the old contact cement?  My old boat had that stuff and I have hit it with both a  brass and nylon brush on a drill.  Sort of smoothed it out but didn't get it off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites