MichalD

Newick Summer Salt 26: akas & sockets

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Hey All,

I recently purchased a Newick Summer Salt 26 trimaran. It doesn't fold but it does come apart with the akas (beams) plugging into sockets in both the main hull and the amas (outrigger hulls). The forward akas have their ends in rough shape at the end walls. The main hull sockets seem to have been filled but this created a half wall at the end and a spider web of gaps.

What do you guys think of this structurally?
How would you approach any fixes?

Cheers,

Michal

sparky July 2017-5.jpg

newick_aka_2.small.jpg

newick_aka_1.small.jpg

newick_socket_2.jpg

newick_socket_1.jpg

newick_aka_zoomout.small.jpg

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Cool boat, congratulations.  Looks like Sparky?

http://dicknewickboats.com/outrigger26/

It's a little hard to grasp what we are looking at in these photos?  Two of them appear to show the main hull sockets for the forward beams?  Which end of the beam is this one (below), outboard or inboard?

2 hours ago, Michal Dobrogost said:

newick_aka_1.small.jpg

From the color (and cracks), the filler appears to be low density microballoons?  Soft, not intended for a structural application like this:
https://www.westsystem.com/407-low-density/

Maybe better to use 404 High-Density instead?
https://www.westsystem.com/404-high-density/

Is there movement between the beams and sockets?  What are the issues you want to solve?  More photos?

This appears to be the inboard end of the aft port beam?  (socket)

2011109_10.jpg

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Hey ProaSailor,

Nice sleuthing! Yes the boat is sparky, originally "banana split".

Correct - the picture you sent is the inboard end of the aft port beam socket. The forward main hull sockets are similarly built into a forward bulkhead. The pictures I sent before are of the inboard ends of the forward beams and the main hull sockets from inside. The outboard beam ends are flat while the inboard ones are round (useful for the additional pictures).

I did not see movement of the beams within the sockets although I haven't had the boat out on the water yet. The beams flex quite a bit even just as I was moving around while the boat was on the trailer with amas attached.

I want to make sure that the beams are not deteriorating over time as they flex to the point where they fail under sail. (Whether this is because the inboard beam end crack propagates or because of point loads caused by the "spiderweb" in the socket.)

More beam pics

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Cool boat, Michal. The most interesting photo is looking inside the socket. It seems obvious that the "molded" part of the fit was done by spreading thickened epoxy inside the socket and inserting the waxed beam. It looks like the loads were not spread evenly (maybe especially at the skinny end of the socket) because of the spotty load bearing. This may mean that the way to really fix the problem is to add the needed laminate to the beams and re-cast the sockets. Is there room to work inside the sockets if you wanted to remove the thickened epoxy? Maybe only the butt (skinny) end of the beams need repair and re-casting.

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Ahh, thanks for taking a look Russell. Yes, I think there should be enough room to work on removing the thickened epoxy from inside the socket although it gets pretty tight on the skinny end (maybe 3").

Here's what I was thinking for the butt end of the beams: cleanup the filler, sand down the face and sand a bevel on the face edge. Fiberglass epoxy over the face and bevel and sand back to the original shape. The one unknown is what the inside filler looks like and how much will start crumbling out once I get started on it (and exactly what to replace it with - 404 makes sense to me). I guess I'll know more about that once I get started on it.

Fun fact: the original owner said that the boat was designed to be self righting and the original foam in the beams was meant to help with this somehow - although I never really got the full story on how self righting would work or whether it was abandoned as a design concept. 

What are you thinking for re-casting the sockets? I'm having trouble imaging an approach different from what you described as probably being the original process - thickened epoxy spread into the socket before inserting the waxed beam.

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Russell, is correct, you are in good hands.  You might try using the green wrapping film from Uhaul for a release agent on the male plug ends.  I have had good luck with it with Aluzine epoxy.  It works as the release barrier between the socket and the beam.  I  just molded  similar sockets for my Proa.  Please try a sample layup with your resin/cloth layup before the big one.  Nice boat.  Aloha, Guerdon. 

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I think that maybe the reason only the inboard ends of the beams are showing damage is because of spotty load bearing and because there was not much laminate covering the ends of the beams in the first place. Another option that wouldn't involve removing epoxy from inside the sockets would be to use the router to remove some of the putty and foam from the ends of the beams (say 1/2") deep and glue in round disks of plywood. The beam laminate looks substantial and could be left intact besides sanding the inside edges where the plywood would bond. You would have to lightly glass the plywood, but I think plywood would be good for that kind of load. Re-casting the sockets at the inboard ends should be done, I think and Guerdon's idea of using stretch film may be the right release. This may not be too serious.

Your thoughts Zonker?

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Are these beams hollow tubes or is there an internal I-beam or uncrushable core of some kind to keep them from deforming?  Especially at the ends inside the sockets on the main hull, where the load is highly concentrated?

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I would guess that only the builder knows what's inside the beams. They couldn't have been easy to build and are pretty small in section, so they must be pretty strongly built. A sheer web would certainly be a good idea and maybe one could tell by tapping on them. The boat and the beams are beautiful and look nicely built. It's always easier to work on something nice-looking.

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6 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

What holds all of that together on a boat like that? 

Tension of the nets.

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Tension of nets - correct. The shroud tension would also have a component squeezing the outriggers together although I don't know how much tension there would be on the lee shroud while under sail. The hydrodynamic forces also have components holding everything together - the beam dives down into the outrigger so the outrigger's buoyancy forces it deeper onto the beam. I have more trouble imagining the forces at the interaction of the beam and main hull. I suppose they're rotational.

Shear Webs & I-Beams - My suspicion is that the laminate is a hollow circular cross section although I agree that it's hard to tell for sure. Some history I dug up on the boat suggests that the original foam got wet and deteriorated at which point the beams were filled with a 2-part expanding foam insulation and this was (maybe) later removed so what's actually there now is somewhat of a mystery. I spent some time thinking about I-Beam construction too. Perhaps the intention was to reduce drag by allowing the outriggers to move through waves free of the main hull? I also researched more structural replacements for a 2-part expanding foam without much luck. When I originally tapped around on the beams they sounded hollow to me without any change on the transition from "inside" to "outside" the main hull socket. With that said, I wasn't specifically looking for a shear web and I'm uncertain what a hollow beam should or shouldn't sound like. They certainly are beautiful - like giant mastodon tusks.

Casting Sockets - Do you have any pictures of what your socket casting guerdon? Are you casting the sockets with thickened epoxy or a composite material or something altogether different? The boat sounds cool - any pics? I'm still trying to figure out what the correct process for casting my sockets should be. I've thought about turning the boat on its side with the sockets up, filling the socket with some straight epoxy (no filler) and casting that way in an attempt to reduce voids. Sounds really impractical though.

Wooden disks - Thanks for the suggestion Russell, this is my current plan. Just taking a look at the inboard end of a beam now it looks like there is some filler in place of the laminate on the outside of the beam (see images attached). The bottom also shows a similar crack on the butt, I guess that top and bottom is where most of the force goes. I may have some more work on this beam.

Stretch film release - are you guys worried about wrinkles or tears as I jam the beam into the socket? Release wax is pretty toxic stuff, right?

I hope to dig into the beams this weekend.

2019-04-22-213146_976x1487_scrot.small.png

2019-04-22-213146_976x1487_scrot_small.png

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You're getting some very high level help at an excellent price.  My feeling, as a guy with a somewhat similar tri that has been pounded pretty hard, is that if it ain't broke it's probably ok.  Go out in bumpy conditions, have somebody else drive and sit inside and watch how things flex and move.  I once saw a carbon ring frame delaminating that way, pretty exciting!  I really like Mr. Brown's plywood idea and a few layers of well-applied carbon here and there usually gives one a warm feeling when the peepee gets rough.

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In all the excitement I forgot to mention, you have an extremely cool boat there, congratulations!

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My guess is the beams are hollow with no shear web.  You might be able to see a faint seam running down the middle of beam, then you have one.  In my dim memory   vacuum/bladder bags were not used yet and a curved mandrel would be pretty exotic tooling for this time.  I am also going to guess she was made with E glass and polyester.  Scratch the laminate if it smells faintly of almonds that means it has styrene in the layup and is polyester, which would be expected for this era.  Happy sailing.

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1 hour ago, mundt said:

In all the excitement I forgot to mention, you have an extremely cool boat there, congratulations!

Yeah, nice boat with the worst name from the marketing sense in multihull history. I think it was originally the Sumersault 26. 

Don't do a sumersault in the doggie poop!

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The one in Ithica also has the below deck tiller linkage. Sparky has an above deck tiller.

Haha, yeah, unfortunate name for a multihull but cheeky. I think Dick Newick had "summer salt 26" originally in his plans.

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Quote

Release wax is pretty toxic stuff, right?

Not at all - unless you are joking. A good carnuba car wax is fine.

I'd use a release film here too. A few layers of wax (well 5 or 6 to be sure) are not that thick. So unless you are very, very sure that the beam tapers in all directions and has no local surface imperfections that could lock in the beam. See sketch (exaggerated imperfection in beam)
image.thumb.png.410d4c954abb6f9df6d8685411803783.png

 

I would also consider a shear web of plywood that would be a tight fit into the beam as deep as the socket.

Coat it with a few coats of epoxy and tap it into place with a hammer.

Put fillets of thickened epoxy on either side of it. Tape a tongue depressor to a stick and load it up with epoxy and reach in that way.

image.png.64703131f6bcfeb44574f3af3f5dc418.png

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Haha, I was not joking but I appreciate the clarification!

Thanks also for the clear explanations and diagrams. Hammering a shear web in would be tricky because the beam tapers from a ~6" diameter at the outboard socket end to a ~3" diameter at the inboard socket wall (see attached picture showing a starboard beam looking through the boat from stern to bow). I would hopefully only open up the 3" end of the beam (left side of the picture).

For those interested there are more pics / vids of the same class boat "nada" here.

beam-fore-aft.small.jpg

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Oh, sorry I only meant a shear web in the socket area, not the whole beam.

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I got into the beam with a chisel and then a router which demystifies some things (eg. cross section, foam fill). The outer wall actually looks like a sandwich with a very hard blue core. Some of that blue core is crumbly. I plan to add the plywood face suggested earlier and also fill the cracks in the blue core with milled glass & epoxy for what it's worth. Progress should be easier now that I have the beams at home.

I also added a picture of the entire beam to give you guys a better sense of what the circumference looks like at different points of the beam. I was left thinking that a fair amount of the force pushing the beam deeper into the main hull socket can be taken by the taper (vs the end face). I wouldn't be surprised if that additional filler in the main hull socket was to prevent the beams from jamming in really tight into the sockets.

small.jpg

small2.jpg

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About how much do the beams weigh? I think it's safe to say that however they were built, it wasn't an easy job. I do wonder what the blue filler is. 

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Hrm, mystery blue core. It felt very hard on my fingernail. The forward beam I'm working on came in at 37lb. The aft beams are slightly shorter.

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Looks like powdered marble dust and or talc and blue chalk to me.  If you scrub a bit with some sandpaper and it smells like baby powder, it's baby powder and straight line blue chalk.  Lavender scented and makes it look like you molested a smurf if you need to grind it.      

Cheap.  Creamy to squeeze into stuff, unlike cotton flock or long strand/ground glass that doesn't like to get pumped into parts.  Talc doesn't compress and explode like straight cabosil thickened resin does.   Pearson used to use the purple chalk and ground marble in fillets and coves... which is a little bit stinkier to grind than talc. 

 

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Whatever that blue stuff is, at 37 pounds they are likely well built beams and the blue stuff may be only at the ends.

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Latest update: plywood cut out, sanded to shape, 2 layers of glass put on, entire assembly glued in place with epoxy + milled glass. 

I'm considering putting another layer of glass over the entire face now. I'll have to do a dry fit of the socket after. Any ideas on what you guys would cast with? 

1557711204953.jpeg

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Nice work! Do you think you need to re-cast the sockets? It's a pretty risky task because the tiniest imperfection could make it really hard to remove the beam. Your plywood beam ends will spread the loads out much better than the foam and filler that was there. 

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I'm tempted to leave the sockets as is at least until winter. It should be a good learning experience to see how the reworked beam does over the summer and also if I would do anything differently for the other beams. I'm anxious to get the boat out on the water for the summer at this point as well. 

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I'd use tinted resin for your two layers of additional cloth.  If the diameter gets too thick it's easier to grind with careless abandon if things are different color.  Cloth thickness on a radius does strange things to the overall diameter. 

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Cool to see this, good luck with repairs! I have the prototype, it went up on SA and I nabbed it a couple of years ago, but life got complicated, so I haven't started on it yet, but will fix it up as soon as I can manage...

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@Zach: Thanks for the tip. I ended up leaving the socket ends as is. As the season wore on I've started to really appreciate the strength of fiberglass. With the season wrapping up I'll post a picture here of what the beam end looks like.

The boat has been a blast to sail. We did a 12 day trip with the wife and son. The interior was small but surprisingly functional. Day 11 was fun - 10 knots upwind in 10 knots of breeze even with a seriously loaded boat. Unfortunately we got dismasted soon after. The forestay went right at the swage up top. We were able to motor from Port hope to Toronto and I've been blown away by the fuel efficiency of this thing. Roller furler fix is still in progress.

@drivejunk: cool! Do you have any pics? What do you have to do?

 

 

 

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It's so great that you got to really use the boat, especially with your family along. Those experiences are priceless, even when it seems like a bit of a struggle. Cruising on smaller boats is more rewarding, I think.

Was your mast damaged? Having new wires made is pretty inexpensive.

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We had a great trip. A small boat especially with a two year old on board requires a lot of cooperation. My wife said it brought us all closer together so that says something. 

Thankfully there was no damage to the mast. The sails were down before it fell which made getting the mast back on the boat easier after the fact. I was standing right beside the mast and recall hearing the sidestays make ricochet sounds right before it fell. Maybe the mast was already hanging by the halyard at that point and the sidestays had more play. I heard a crack and yelled to Maggie to get out of the way (she was in the cockpit). Next thing I know the mast was in the water and the engine died (I think the boom hit the motor). Maggie got a better look and said it came down in 4 steps so it happened somewhat slowly. Daniel was woken up and Maggie had to run back and forth between consoling him in the cabin and yanking on the boom vang, now tied to the mast end, while I lifted the mast to take the pressure off at the other end. 

It's noteworthy how many systems can be brought down with a dismasting: sail power, engine power, masthead vhf.

The motor started up right away and I didn't realize until we were 2 hours from home the next day that the motor was hanging on 1.5 of 3 hinges and the remaining hinges were slowly twisting. That was scary. 

Only minor damage really: jib halyard, forestay, roller furler, mast rotation yoke, cabin top solar vent, motor mount hinges (replacements were a bitch to find). 

No damage to any fiberglass. 

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That boat looks like a gem. Hopefully it becomes a favorite family get-away machine. Hoping to get away on my favorite next week. It's getting cold here.

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On 9/25/2019 at 4:05 AM, MichalD said:

 

Would love to see more video but please hold the phone/camera in "Landscape" rather that "Portrait" orientation?  Two thirds of screen pixels are wasted in portrait mode.

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@ProaSailor Haha, yeah it doesn't look great on a desktop now that I see it. It is very natural on a cell phone or tablet though and it does have the benefit of allowing you to see more of the sail. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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On 9/28/2019 at 8:26 AM, MichalD said:

Where are you going to take the G32? 

I went up past the Northern end of the Straights of Georgia (between Vancouver Island and the mainland). It's quite beautiful and feels like going into mountains on your boat. I also have friends that live there that I like to visit. They have kids and are building a big catamaran so there's always something to haul up there. An excuse to go always helps. This trip was quite windless and I wasn't thinking it would be so I had only the three gallon tank for the outboard. Three gallons is good for about 75 miles, but I was running on fumes a couple of times. It was also quite cold. 

I did have a serious issue with my mast that I was able to fix while I was up there. The bolt rope track failed at the bottom end from having too much outhaul tension when reefed. Because the bottom end was stronger than the rest of it, I was worried about yanking the whole length of the track off, so I had to bond on some thick G-10 plates to the sides of the mast, which I got done about five minutes before it rained for a couple of days.

Anyway, that's where I went and sailing season is now over, so that's it. Is sailing season over where you are? 

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Sounds like a beautiful place to go sailing. We spent 6 years in Vancouver and we still miss it. Going up the east side of Vancouver island is Maggie's dream trip although it sounds like you had a wet go of it this time around. 

Yes, sailing season is over and fix-it season is upon us. I'll be pulling the boat out of the water next week. It's been sitting in a sad state with the mast down since the trip while I figured out the roller furler which is done now. 

I've been thinking about how to rebuild the mast tiller. Searching for mast tiller on the forums actually brought up your blog. It's a rather beautifully built tiller and I wouldn't mind trying my hand at more composite work. How did you lock it in place? I don't see any lines running to the tiller in the last picture. 

Pictures of the old mast tiller are attached for everyone's bemusement. 

15707451933620.jpg

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Here is what the beam ends look like after the season. My conclusion is that they are more than beefy enough for the loads. Pics (not that interesting to look at). 

I also had a chance to look at the boat plans from the previous owner. The beams all come from a single mold with the rear beams cut short from the outboard end. The aft beams are sealed while the forward ones are not. Layup specified: 8 plies of orcon s-500 (unidirectional s-glass, 2 plies at a bias) + 8 oz woven roving inside & out. 

 

 

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Hi Michal

I have Lady  Bug  Outrigger # 8.  We are in upstate NY near Schenectady. 

I have been restoring Lady Bug since I bought her as a  dry land wreck. .  I talked with Dick Newick several times.  I have also talked with Bill Murphy (builder) and have some of Dicks drawings for Summer Salt, design # 54 dated 21 May 1984.

I have encountered many of the problems you have.  When purchased, I had to repair the aka (beam) ends.  The forestay failed suddenly and the mast came down.  Harken technical rep was very helpful in advising me on how to rebuilding the furler extrusion assembly.  He stated the stay upper swage is subject to torsion and bidirectional bending especially on a rotating mast, and should be replaced frequently.  I suspect mine was original.  Since the swage is hidden inside the extrusion, it goes unseen and uninspected.     

I have many design improvements and drawings that I would be happy to share.  I am in the process of rebuilding the mast base to change to a tip up arrangement.  The Bill Murphy designed gin pole arrangement scared me witless, although he claimed it worked very well.  Something about a screwed together 2x4 column that was on the verge of buckling is unnerving.  The new mast base arrangement combines the functions of tip up to raise the mast,  internal halyards,  turning blocks that lead halyards  to Lewmar Clutches, and a colligio made ball for mast rotation.  

Where do you live?  Where do you sail Sparky?

Please contact me directly at dclayman@nycap.rr.com

 

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Hey @dclayman, great to hear from another summer salt owner! I've sent you an email. It would be great to see the work that you have done. 

I'm based out for a Toronto, Canada. We've spent last summer on lake Ontario and mostly near Toronto except for our trip out to Prince Edward county. We may try to trailer the boat somewhere else this summer for an extended cruise but we'll have to see how it goes with our youngest son (born last week). 

I attached a picture of the mast tiller mold I'm making. The idea is to close it off on top with flat fiberglass panel so it becomes a tapered box section to better resist twisting loads (the tiller control line is angled down). 

15795360243100.jpg

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Only just discovered this thread, so apologies if I'm miles too late ...

I once spent a few hours helping somebody take the beams out of his Summersault. It took a long time because the beams had jammed in place and we couldn't find a way to get them started moving. I'm sorry I don't know the ins and outs of the problem or what cure he eventually chose, but just be aware to plan how to take the beams out after they've been in a while, and test the plan every now and again.

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Construction of the beams is foam with matting wound around it roughly shaped , to later fit into the two outer halves of solid

fiberglass.These halves come out of a mold..Halves filled with polyester putty and then forced/squeezed over the roughly shaped 

inner part. Seam covered with fiberglass tape

On the ends at the main hull ; a bolt through the hull to prevent “working” in and out in rough seas which in the end causes wear.

To facilitate taking the outrigger ends out : put 3 mm spacing rubber at the ends before inserting and some form of long lasting lubrication.Also I beefed op the lids at the outrigger with carbon matting and use a wooden load dispersing block to hammer everything loose at the end of the season.

As for the boat iltself , change to a rudder with a wing , since the hull/outriggershape is dated and loves  hobbyhorsing .A winged rudder makes it a different boat.

 

 

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5BE3C592-9281-4AF9-AA9A-304ECBB38165.jpeg

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Hello Paranda,

greetings from Wilhelmshaven, Northwest Germany. Do you know somebody in Europe who wants to sell his Somersault? I tried to buy one last year in Canada, but  red tape, customs and shipping cost killed all my efforts.

 

Have fun, Michel

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Thanks djh. The beams were indeed a bit of work to get out at the end of last season but not that hard in the end. Previous owners recast the sockets and that made it better. 

Nice rudder paranada! Was it a DIY build? Here's a video of some hobby horsing under motor (excuse the low audio quality). Maybe it's exaggerated by the small low windage bow? 

Here's another video of some nice sailing last year to get us through to better times. Again, excuse the poor video quality but for me seeing water stream off the amas never gets old. It was actually a video of the echo II design "mocking bird" sailing that got me onto Newick's designs. 

Slow progress on the rebuild but only the boom needs fixing at this point. Does anyone have experience with brazing aluminum with products like this? https://www.amazon.ca/Bazona-2019-Alumifix-Flux-Cored-20pcs/dp/B07TBV33BP. The idea would be to close up the existing tears and drill new holes for the screws elsewhere. You can see the cap through the torn out hole in the image attached.

Cheers

IMG-20200410-WA0007.jpg

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Also paranada - do you have any photos of the rudder linkage mechanism under the rear hatch? 

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All this talk reminded me of a time I went out sailing with my sister, her friend and my toddler son on the summer salt last year. As fathers do I forgot the milk bottle at home and grabbed a plastic wine glass from the TMCC club house. My sister knows the basics of sailing but she was never on a multihull or a sailboat larger than 14 ft. She steered under motor while I fed and got my son to sleep in the forward bunk. We got some sails up and quickly reefed down as we started feeling the gusts come in. The sea state got rough once we got out in the open water and my sister's friend didn't seem to be enjoying himself. It was only after 20 minutes bashing upwind into the waves that they let me know that he didn't know how to swim and I got him off the upwind tramp and into the well protected cockpit. To my surprise my son had slept through all of this for a solid hour and a half. When he woke up and I went down below I was amazed to find the wine glass still standing on the port bunk where I had forgotten it in the commotion at the start. I remember being mesmerized and staring in disbelief at the milk barely swaying in the glass with not a drop spilled despite what was going on outside. 

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There are 2 Somersaults ,probably 3 in Europe ,mine , one in France  , both in good order.

Used to be one in Sweden some 20 years ago  but I doubt it still exists ...

I am 78 now so who knows...

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Hello Paranda,

so let me know if you want to sell your Somersault one day: ... michel.fe@gmx.de  ...  

Anyway, if I don't find one I will start building my own tri coming fall or winter. It is currently on the drawing board parallel to model making.

Do you see any similarities to the Somersault??? *smile*

tremosalt1.thumb.jpg.233e61ef944b653cd5a0becb53a2b375.jpgtremo5.thumb.jpg.8feb3349962f1c2fc8186a0aba209656.jpgtremo4.jpg.52de1bf333eebe47c5ed142730162fd5.jpgtremo3.jpg.9f81d8f2c8449926936feddc1c4566de.jpg248987662_GrandpaAmu.jpg.e069c2f9cd174d84ff2ee6e89ab49f38.jpg

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Last Picture is "Grandpa Amu", Find him on youtube. He is the only carpenter with 1,1 Million followers on youtube.

Enjoy a peaceful quarter hour every day, watching him with a cup of coffee or tea in your hand.

 

Have fun, Michel

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Need Advise

I rebuilt the akas  when we bought the boat in 2014.  Isought & received advice from both William Murphy and Dick Newick.  The akas were fitted to the ama sleeves, and the fit checked with chalk.  

The sleeves where they are bonded into the amas where cracking as below.

KIMG0047.thumb.JPG.04f029221d8ee002774fcd9e4e24856e.JPG

A bit of grinding showed the failure was extensive, and the cracks had initiated in voids in the joint.

KIMG0048.thumb.JPG.47ec657c5980e5017f256126d18b422a.JPG

 

I had previously  reached into the ama and added fillets of 1/4" (6.3mm) glass fibers & epoxy to seal & strengthen the joint.  As seen below, one season of sailing cracked that.  

1954515332_KIMG0257(1).thumb.JPG.6942b9caa3a27a3860c9254030ec3ed4.JPG

The indoard ends of the sleeves were rejoined to the deck molding.  The repair was braided 18 oz glass tape, and e-glass shopper gun stock wrapped around the opening to provide hoop strength.  Resin used is WEST 650 for its adhesion and high elongation to fail properties.

KIMG0117.thumb.JPG.b9fc42f2da48dc7350edf94f10f52c5b.JPG

 

I bought a bore scope to inspect the bulkheads and sleeves inside the amas .  What I found is - all the bulkheads have cracks at outboard ends of the aka sleeves.  The inboard ends of the sleeves where they go through the deck molding were also cracked. The sleeves end at the bulkhead.  They are not tabbed to the outboard surface of the ama.  They are close ended, but the end is short of the ama hull, leaving a large openingbetween the bulkheads and the ama hull.  This is contrary to the drawing that calls for the amas to have 3 water tight compartments.  I think this also left the ends unsupported which allowed them to crack the tabbing.  

KIMG0211.thumb.JPG.905b40f2830d46c2658f6153b895d6a4.JPG

 

This crack is typical of all four bulkheads.  I believe the failures were from prvious owners getting the akas stuck in the ama.  The ama was then laid on the ground,  aka in the air, held down, and one or more strong guys grabbed the aka and worked it around to loosen.  The breaks do not seem to be in the direction of either sailing rig loads or displacement loads.

how to repair?

I am looking for advice on how to repair these cracks/breaks.  Please help!

Here is what I think I will do-

  1. Open the deck plates to mount 6" deck plates.  This will give better access to the ama interior
  2. Reach in and sand the cracks.  Coat the areas with 650 andallow to start gel
  3. Apply pre-wetted DB120 in small pieces to the areas.  The gel and tack 650 will help hold the DB120 in place.
  4. Re-tab broken tabbing for bulkheads and chain plate backers  using same method
  5. Flip the amas over so the sleeveis down.  Hot melt glue a flexible tube to the end of a static mixer tube.  The pump Pro-Set 175/276 into the areas around the deck to sleeve joint on the ama inner join.  
  6. Build up the decks to have a flat surface for the 6" deck plates.  The amount of deck crown will cause the deck plates to leak.
  7. Shoot everything with Awlgrip
  8. Go sailing

Questions for the on line experts

  1. Does this soundlike a reasonable way to proceed?
  2. Should I tied the ends of the bulkheads and sleeves to the ama hull?
  3. Should I try to make 3 water tight compartments?
  4. Do I have to beef up the deck in the way of the enlarged deck plates?
  5. I have two 5 year old cartridges of ADV 175/276 are they still good?  I will mix  a small batch to check gel & cure times.  Or shoulod I just buy new since I am putting so much labor into the job?

I do a lot of boat repair on rowing boats.  But I always welcome help, advise beer and sandpaper.

Here is one of my projects

KIMG0297.thumb.jpg.77ab477c94120a86adb30223ace897e4.jpg 

 

 

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About 7 years ago I purchased a Balogh sail rig from Mark.  I promptly broke the aircraft aluminum aka at a joint.  During a great telephone conversation with Mark Balogh he explained that he would send a “doubling tube” to make that section of the aka double-walled- BUT.  He then explained that by doubling that section of the aka, we were just moving the failure point to another location on the rig.

 

He was right, and the aka failed at another point on the first day of a WaterTribe race.  Luckily another entrant who was withdrawing lent me his.

 

What is the relevance? You can continue to harden the failure point du jur almost indefinitely.  The solution is not pushing the boat outside the design envelope.  
 

PS- I took the loaned aka from Placida south to Key Largo and finished an around Florida race.  Once I learned to operate inside the envelope.

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It seems like you are well qualified to take on this job and it also seems like you are on the right track. Will the 6" holes be fore & aft of the sockets or just one side? 

Question 2 is a bit hard to answer without a sketch. The photo doesn't tell all. Also # 5 in the first column isn't clear to me. Also not familiar with WEST 650. Is that the super-slow?

Production boats all seem to have issues.I own one too. Building boats is not a good way to make money.

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It may be helpful to remember that stress flows like water.  If you visualize how something is flexing and allow the stress to flow off the joint to dissipate in the surrounding areas you will have a much longer lived structure.  Radius composite joints and taper laminate layups to spread loads over the largest area possible.  Our culture is very linear, natural flexing is not part of our training as builders.  Go watch a tree flex in the wind.

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Guerdon

Ypu are right about thinking in terms of shear flow.  When in doubt, get out Peterson's text on stress concentration factors.  This is a complex problem.   I am not trained or skilled in Naval Architecture.  The sleeve is unsupported at the end.  This is a stress riser, and most of the cracks have initiated from the end. But if tied into the outboard skin of the ama, I may casur a hardspot in the ama hull.  Was this done as a manufacturing decision to ease assembly?  Or is this design intent, as a way to allow the hull to deck flange absorb impact from hard docking?   My guess is the ama is stiffened by the prisma stringer, and the  partial bulkhead, and completing the bulkhead, tying it into the deck and the rest of the way up the hull will make the ama much more ridged.  It will just be vey difficult.  But is it necessary?      

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Hi Russell

Yes there are 4 ports per ama.  They are on each side of the bulkhead.  I assume this is how the ama was assembled.

 

The annotated picture may explain the ama.  To visualize, rotate the image 90 degrees counter clockwise.  The aka sleeve is then at the top of the image.  There is about 1 to 2 " gap between the outboard end of the sleeve and the outboard hull.  The top of the sleeve is not tied to the deck for several inches. 

783291466_STARBDAFTBULKHEADNOTEDcompressed.jpg.5cec0c57d79161c99346935099a3d222.jpg

West G/Flex epoxy is a viscosity epoxy, 15,000cps.  It has a low modulus and high oughness  compared to 105 resins and a very high strain to failure.  It is claimed to have better adhesion properties.   It has a fairly high pot life and gel time.  It is interesting stuff to work with.  Pricey though.

Hope that clears the problem statement up.

 

As to making boats is not a good way to make money... ask Mike Vespoli.

 

 

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Sorry, didn't remember G-Flex was #650. I use a lot of G-flex and like it. 

Is that a topside panel stringer? Is that photo looking aft on the stbd side? I still can't quite picture what's happening.

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That is the implosion stringer on the side of the hull.  The free end of the aka sleeve is bout 1 to 2" from the hull.  There is a gap between the end of the aka sleeve and the hull, and the deck.  I don't know if this was doen for ease of manufacture or the allow the hull/deck flange joint to flex under exuberant docking.

 

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Russell - Didn't you work on Mocking Bird, one of Mr. Newick's last projects?  Do you recall if the amas bulkheads were sealed?  

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That was my brother. I think that the socket doesn't touch the hull for ease of building, not structural reasons. When you can fit a camera in there and take a photo of the whole socket, i'd like to see it.

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A taper layup of 4oz biaxial over the crack should tie it together.  This cloth is used in sailplane mfg.  Do the largest patch first.   After all the plies are done, flow coat the area past the patch to insure a smooth transition. when it flexes.  Remember polyester gets brittle as it ages  [much like myself].  You have a wonderful old ballerina .

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Really interesting stuff, damn, the photo is enlightening, even if I don't know which way is up. I hear many times about "cracks" and it's always little spidery things in gelcoat. 

That is fucking broke!

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I cut open the decks to fit the larger deck plates.  Access to he bulkheads has been vastly improved.  I was able to get a caliper on the tabbing  It is about .06" thick.  This would be inline with DB170 which is .045" dry.   Ithink the repair schedule will be a mixture of WEST 105/206 and G/Flex 650.  The addition of the 650 improves adhesion and elongation of the resin.  I will try using DB170S for the base fabric, and DB170 for the second layer.  I will lay up over the cracks, rather than the proper prep of tapering the  area to a 1:12 slope.  Too difficult to work there. 

This lainate should not be notch sensitive.  Does anyone know if I need to drill a crack stop?:

 

 

KIMG0322.thumb.JPG.8f4534cc7e1862eebda221e09cfc412f.JPG

Once I have the cracks patched  I can figure out a way to tab the ends of the sockets to the deck and hull.

363502626_PortAftfowrdface.jpg.963c2b67c580010553a236a91e30eea0.jpg

I cannot load any more of the files.  I get an error code -200 file failed to upload.

These are cracks.  The boat did not break up.  It did not sink.  Just cracks.

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Are you able to reach in to prepare the surface? Are you using the G-flex just for priming the surfaces? Seems good to me.

I would throw lots of laminate at the issue. It's not like there's a big weight penalty for using lots of layers.

Looks pretty clean in there.

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Drill a crack stop if it is carbon or metal, a counrtsink seems to work on glass.  Glad that you are aware of notch strength issues, that's the concept that eludes many.

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Yup put a crack stop in then filled the area with g/flex epoxy & microballoons.  Then laid up 3 layers of DB120 (double bias 12 oz).  1321190532_Repair3layersDB120.jpg.f49f674b92b68ec8fca1544f1f019107.jpg1321190532_Repair3layersDB120.jpg.f49f674b92b68ec8fca1544f1f019107.jpg

Working blind.  Trying to follow the work on the bore scope, but sunlight washes out the display.  Laminate is a bit resin rich, but there does not seem to be any voids or bubbles.  The only way I can get this to work is to use g/flex.  The high viscosity sticky resin will hold the fabric in place as I wet it out.  

Think it will be good for another 30 years.  Ladybug is just getting heavier.

 

 

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Resin rich is really good when you can't see what you are doing and especially when the area is relatively small. The weight penalty is nothing. Glad you are priming with G-Flex.

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This is difficult and exasperating work.  I can't see the work, I have to use mirrors, bore scope and cell phone to see it.  I can only get one hand into the area.    I think part of the reason the failures occurred where they did, is the geometry.  The heavy double bias is curved from the flat bulkhead onto the ama socket.  In the area of the cracks, the cloth is in a recurved tight radius.  This is impossible for me to lay up over and get a good laminate with out the use of a vacuum bag.  

BUT, by filling the area with g/flex and microballoons I can make a large fillet that the glass easily follows.  The repair will be stronger & stiffer than the original. I think this is the difference between a series built boat,  and a painstakingly crafted owner built.  As Ian Farrier pointed out, many of his home built designs were built to a far higher quality than the factory could afford.  Also time has told me where the failure points are.

 

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On 9/22/2019 at 4:45 PM, MichalD said:

@drivejunk: cool! Do you have any pics? What do you have to do?

Um, everything! ;-)

I have finally started on it, but as it is the prototype, my plan is to throw it together with the absolute minimum of effort and money. It is significantly different than the production models, and I want to make sure it's a good boat worth saving before I get too far into making it pretty or upgrading anything. 

For instance, the sockets for the beams are round, not oval as in the production boat. I wonder of that will cause a lot of movement and therefor wear; rebuilding those will be a project. 

Also, the mast is 26', while the production mast is 31'. For SF, that may actually be better, I won't have to reef down all the time, but it also may be annoying in lighter places. 

I am working on it now, and finding that the boat is not very straight or level, it all seems inconsistent, though it could also be that the beams are not fully inserted, they may settle in while sailing, I may want to make some system of pulling them in more surely, like installing them with ratcheting tie-down straps.

It is very lightly built in some ways, but the cabin top is solid glass with semu-tubular reinforcemnts that don't see to work well, may want to glass on some foam. 

Cool boat though, and it seems like it could be a fast light boat that will be fun. I hope to put up a blog at some point with all the photos and info I have. I am sad that the Yahoo Group seems to have died when they went down, doing a group of FB is a waste of time if you want to have a searchable archive and other features of a group that work so well. I could maybe start up one at Groups.IO

 

Anton

 

 

 

in water.jpg

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