jackolantern

ORC For Dummies

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Alright. IRC is fading here on the east coast of the US. With the SORC series moving into ORC scoring, a number of bigger distance races following suit, and the ORC worlds coming to NYYC in 2020, it’s time to learn more. So in no particular order or importance:

-what’s the difference between ORCi and ORC Club? Is that like IRC endorsed vs IRC unendorsed? Does one require a more stringent measurement assuming your boat is already scanned? 

-What does ORC really like in a boat?. My gut says sporty racer cruisers with enough tweaks made to make them efficient around the cans

-What are no-nos? In the same way that IRC loves spinnaker area but hates headsail luff length, what does ORC penalize hard  

-how about sail configurations? Long bowsprit and no pole? Longer pole and no sprit? Normal pole and short sprit? What’s the thinking on that? Code Zeros smaller than 75% SMG are allowed but penalized hard? 

-How about the incremental hits and credits? IRC was -.002 for a 3 blade prop , but +.001 for an electric hydraulic Backstay. What kinds of stuff does ORC do this with. 

Thanks for discussing  I’m sure I’ll come up with more 

 

 

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I don't think there will be definitive trends, but will be more what your conditions are and tailoring the boat to the course and locale.  It largely will depend on how the RC implements the handicaps especially for long distance races.  Ex. Bermuda race tends to be more upwind and close reaching in moderately strong winds.  So if a boat is fast in those conditions but slow in most other conditions it will be somewhat favored because of the equal weighting given to other points of sail that may not have occurred during the race which will tell the algorithm that the boat is slower.  There are ways for the RC to specify conditions over the course to account for such, but I've rarely seen it done- literally one race back in the IMS days over my 50 plus years of racing have I seen the RC specify a percentage of wind direction and speed to be used for handicapping purposes. Usually you get an "ocean" or distance rating based on a circular random type approach. 

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Um, out here on the us west coast almost all of the orr scored races use a wind matrix to weed out the downwind flyers

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The difference between ORCi and ORCclub is how the input to the rating software is generated. For ORCi this is always by measuring the actual boat except that you can use an existing offset file (do make sure that it is the right one though...using the wrong or an incorrect offset file is more common than people like to think). The ORCclub input is simplified, may be owner declared and the "missing" data (mostly stability and freeboard measurement but can also involve other things even the hull file) is then estimated by the rating office issuing the certificate. Most often this is taken from sisterships and a good rating officer can generate consistent club certificates for "his" fleet but club certs from different rating offices are sometimes a bit "off". 

If one looks at the ORC-fleets here in northern Europe the consensus seems to be moderation. The norm (for sub 40') is a normal C/R with 105% jibs and smallish symmetrical spinnakers. Larger/faster boats that generate more apparent wind have moderately sized assys on sprits. The better boats work very hard on unrated performance gains like bottom finish, optimizing foils, removing unnecessary stuff, weight concentration etc.

Codes smaller than 75% has a rating hit but my opinion is that is a reasonable reflection of the performance increase gained. 

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6 hours ago, notallthere said:

Um, out here on the us west coast almost all of the orr scored races use a wind matrix to weed out the downwind flyers

that's a good thing.

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You can find the rules on orc.org but sail limits are:

image.png.c85c976a02cdbe3a96b9330d795ab7bd.png

Also register for sailor services and access all ORC certs since 2009

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The closer you get to having all the real data required for the ORCi cert, the better your rating gets (generally), as the ORC-club certificate is based on conservative estimates for things like boat vcg, rig weight and cg etc.

Doing the full measurement is not that bad, the inclining for the vessel weight and vcg only takes a few hours, and is a good opportunity to clear all unnecessary clutter from the boat.

For the rig measurement, if you regularly remove the rig for winter storage or maintenance, then take the time to weigh it (and find cg) before putting it back in.

While it does not affect your rating, the more sail data you put in, the better your polars and cross-over charts will be that the system outputs, which can be quite handy when racing.

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They say the two are compatible, but at our club there are OD Farr 40's using each, and the difference between the ORCi and ORCclub figures in not insignificant. I can look it up if you want but definitely not the same.

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1 hour ago, jackolantern said:

Does the quality of the ORC Club assumed data get better if your boat is a production boat? 

Generally yes but in my experience a lot depends on the individual rating officer issuing the cert.  

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I'm well aware of the ORR ecosystem and am purposefully asking about ORC. 

Your problem is that ORR is so convoluted and complicated that it needs a (slightly less complicated) offshoot to try and build participation at a grassroots level. What you ORR evangelizers at the CCA and ORA miss is that you're pushing a rule designed and pushed by a group of people who care more about utilizing incredibly perfect measurement and scoring methods than they did about making the rule easy to get into, easy to understand, easy to score, easy to implement, relatively affordable, and most importantly - attempts to be fair to all boats. Yes, ORR is a heavily typeforming rule with implicit biases and a direct descendant of IMS which was also developed by the same people who are now pushing ORR. After IMS failed at the global level for exactly the reasons I've just described, a few loudmouths rebranded it ORR and shoehorned into the Bermuda race where found favor and longevity primarily because it favors the increasingly outdated fleet of CCA member (or ORR committee member designed, if you're very cynical) yachts on CCA racetrack. 

There's a reason why CCA grand-poobah Ecclestone went from sailing the 2006 IRC Blue Yankee to buying the 1994 IMS Blue Yankee in his quest for an ORR St. David's Trophy. It's not because both boats weren't available.

So maybe take it as an indication of general sentiment towards the rule you're pushing that while ORR has been on the books for 20 years, that ORC is growing quickly on the east coast and that I'm here asking about ORC and not the Jim Teeters-lite rule. 

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One further example of why I have a philosophical disagreement with the "the good is the enemy of the perfect" mentality at the ORA is that when an easier, simpler, cheaper, faster, way of inclining boats for ORR (that has been accepted for inclining boats under ORC in Europe) was attempted to be brought over to the states, internationally recognized measurers were blackballed and stripped of their measurement certificates by U.S. Sailing for advocating those methods. 

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2 hours ago, jackolantern said:

One further example of why I have a philosophical disagreement with the "the good is the enemy of the perfect" mentality at the ORA is that when an easier, simpler, cheaper, faster, way of inclining boats for ORR (that has been accepted for inclining boats under ORC in Europe) was attempted to be brought over to the states, internationally recognized measurers were blackballed and stripped of their measurement certificates by U.S. Sailing for advocating those methods. 

Never mind what I said. You have a clear opinion about ORR. We can debate relative merit in another thread. To stay on topic, I'll bet if you spent a couple bucks with a designer they would tell you exactly how to optimize your boat for ORC. Just please don't put hidden water tanks in your transom :)

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3 hours ago, jackolantern said:

Now back to my thread. How does ORC seem to treat things like mainsail girth? Is moderate, IRC-typical, roach penalized?

My sincere apologies for the thread hijack. 

Best of luck trying to game optimize the boat for the system.  Long live IOR, MORC, IMS, etc etc :D

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5 hours ago, jackolantern said:

Any insights on the propeller and electrically powered hydraulic backstay points from above? 

The treatment of those (and everything else ;-) ) is described in the ORC-VVP documentation.

 https://orc.org/rules/ORC VPP Documentation 2018.pdf

The end effect is normally much the same as in IRC

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Looking at ORC as well after a while and perhaps someone here has some experience with rating the backstays. Basically I'm looking at a Fast40 rig here and the latest generation (in the Solent) have got runners only (upper aft rigging terminates mid-way the top mast and opposes a Mh0Fr0 only - no masthead reaching sails allowed). But those guys are all rated under IRC not ORC.

Under IRC, only the quantity of aft rigging gets counted, so single backstay on a crane or running backstays (for squarehead) is 1 set. and upper termination point does not impact the rating (or so I read the rule). A deflector on the upper set of aft rigging is always seen as a second set of aft rigging, regardless of position. A deflector on your checkstay is free as long as the deflector point on the rig (ferrule, block) is within 10% of IG, but your checkstay already means you have 2 sets of aft rigging.

For ORC, it is clear to me you have to declare whether you have a backstay (attachment above P-band) or runners, but (again, this is how I read the rule) here you can have a "free" deflector as long as it attaches within 10% of IG of the aft rigging termination point (F9.5 - IMS 2019). Reading the VPP documentation (link above, many thanks), running backstays are rated over single backstay (different lift coefficients for your sails) but I cannot find (explicitly) if in one of the fudge factors the rule penalises (or credits!) having runners only over running backstays.

So, anybody has any experience with running a certificate for a boat that compares having backstays (so certificate notes: "Runners: 0, without backstay: no" and "Runners: 1, without backstay: yes"). I'm looking to save my "test-certificates" for some other options that I feel require investigation.

Thanks,

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On 5/9/2019 at 12:59 AM, lostmydetailsagain said:

So, anybody has any experience with running a certificate for a boat that compares having backstays (so certificate notes: "Runners: 0, without backstay: no" and "Runners: 1, without backstay: yes"). 

Or having no backstay/runner at all? That should certainly warrant some rating credit right...

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On 5/11/2019 at 6:15 PM, him&her said:

Or having no backstay/runner at all? That should certainly warrant some rating credit right...

That is definitely not an option if chainplate positions for shrouds are fixed and you want headstay tension as well as mast-bend control... 

Or perhaps I should rephrase that and say that I have yet to experience a boat where I can sail at 37TWA and hold my lane in a fleet of 40&50ft racers designed for WL-racing.

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8 hours ago, lostmydetailsagain said:

That is definitely not an option if chainplate positions for shrouds are fixed and you want headstay tension as well as mast-bend control... 

Wait. So if they are not fixed you can do what? Have a set of chain plates further back that you can change on every gybe or risk loosing the mast? That is interesting, could be fun...

Of course dinghies just downfucker the crap out of their Cunningham's and vangs to bend the mast at will... Probably not possible on much larger boats huh.

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13 hours ago, him&her said:

Wait. So if they are not fixed you can do what? Have a set of chain plates further back that you can change on every gybe or risk loosing the mast? That is interesting, could be fun...

Of course dinghies just downfucker the crap out of their Cunningham's and vangs to bend the mast at will... Probably not possible on much larger boats huh.

The chainplates are already bonded in place. Otherwise you could have put them further back and provide the required support for running and reaching.

Never been able to replicate the dinghy style settings on a bigger boat. The vang for instance is limited in load to reduce the boom shell weight by about 25-30% so it is only strong enough to control the leach on running and reaching courses.

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6 hours ago, lostmydetailsagain said:

The chainplates are already bonded in place. Otherwise you could have put them further back and provide the required support for running and reaching.

Ohhhh got it yes swept back spreaders. Makes sense. 

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Really? Someone chooses how to rig backstays based on rating? Wow. That shows a remarkable lack of self esteem. Do you choose your car based on what your neighbor thinks?

Maybe it’s time to actually go sailing.

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1 hour ago, carcrash said:

Really? Someone chooses how to rig backstays based on rating? Wow. That shows a remarkable lack of self esteem. Do you choose your car based on what your neighbor thinks?

Maybe it’s time to actually go sailing.

Unfortunately everyone does. Look at all of the IRC optimized designs from the "big boys" such as JPK and Jeanneau...

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7 hours ago, carcrash said:

Really? Someone chooses how to rig backstays based on rating? Wow. That shows a remarkable lack of self esteem. Do you choose your car based on what your neighbor thinks?

Maybe it’s time to actually go sailing.

I believe you are looking at this wrong: if all else is equal (initial runs show no measurable difference in sail performance between options) then one would go for the solution that results in the lowest rating. However as we are limited in the number of trial certificates, we are not in a position to get a rating specifically on the backstay question. So as above the question is not which solution is better but if anybody has experience with the specific part of ORC and the impact on rating (quantifiable). 

To take on your analogy, if I am looking at 2 cars but with different colour interiors I will ask people who got similar coloured interiors on their experience on wear, reflection, stuff like that: yes. 

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3 hours ago, lostmydetailsagain said:

 However as we are limited in the number of trial certificates

As far as I know there is no limit on trial certs in ORC except cost...If the boat already has an ORC cert you can run the trials yourself for 10€ a piece on ORC sailor services.l

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On 5/17/2019 at 8:32 AM, carcrash said:

Really? Someone chooses how to rig backstays based on rating? Wow. That shows a remarkable lack of self esteem. Do you choose your car based on what your neighbor thinks?

Maybe it’s time to actually go sailing.

Some of us just like the challenge of sailboat racing, and enjoy racing under rating rules rather than under someone's guesstimate or in a OD that may not exist in our area or may not suit us.

One could say that the lack of self esteem is shown by those people who feel that it's necessary to put down others.

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I recently read something about the designing of the Aphrodite 101. Elvstrom tried to rig her with swept-back spreaders and no runners, like a big Soling. No rig came down, but the forestay sagged to much that in the end they added runners again. 

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