SF Woody Sailor

Dip Pole Gybing Whisker Pole

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So for one reason or another I am going to be sailing a few races in the non-spinnaker division this year. For background: all races are W/L buoy races typically in solid breeze as we are in SF so DDW or slightly by the lee is fast. Boat is a 36' masthead, symmetrical keelboat. I bought a nice Forespar whisker pole that extends up to 22' (J=13.5').

Question is: how best to set, gybe, and douse the pole on genoa for wing on wing? Gybing seems to be a particular PITA. Are people running two sets of sheets?

Thanks in advance.

 

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You doing this short-handed?

This all becomes easier if you have the sheets marked for a broad reach trim. (I sew through with colored twine; it lasts a lot longer.) Also, if you are using the topping life, mark that at the best hoist position. And, finally, know how long the pole should be for a broad reach and preset that before leaving the dock.

The SET

  1. Pre-set the genoa trim, then trot on up to the mast.
  2. Hook the outboard end to either the clew or sliding along the sheet. If you aren't using TL and fore guy on the pole, you will be able to control things better if you clip onto the clew, but making that initial hook up is more fussy and being connected at the clew limits what you can do should you need to make  rapid adjustments.
  3. With the TL pre-set, stand with your back pressed against the front of the mast and shove the pole outboard and forward until you can make the mast ring. That is a powerful posture and pretty secure as you form a tripod with the mast and your two feet spread apart and forward a bit.
  4. Now back to the cockpit for fine trim.

The DOUSE

  1. Reverse the set procedure. First pre-set the sheets, then pole off mast, then pole off clew. Then off the topping life.

The GYBE

  1. Douse the pole.
  2. Gybe the boat.
  3. Set the pole on new gybe.

NOTES

  • If you feel the boat is stable enough, you can leave the pole dangling from a center-mounted pre-set topping lift (bridle). This saves a bit of time.
  • The boat needs to be steered deeper than the pre-set sheet trim or you will struggle to make the mast.
  • Remember that the whisker pole is not as stout as the spinnaker pole so don't, you know... fold it in half.
  • Make sure the telescoping mechanism will stay locked even if the pole is twisting a bit. You may find that you want the pole pretty much the same length all the time. Consider locking in that length with a single pop rivet to prevent it from twisting into telescoping mode.
  • This is usually an end-for-end gybe and the douse-gybe-set procedure takes a lot fewer crew to execute smoothly compared to a dip-pole. Dip-pole with a pole longer than J becomes more complicated.

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19 minutes ago, Somebody Else said:

You doing this short-handed?

This all becomes easier if you have the sheets marked for a broad reach trim. (I sew through with colored twine; it lasts a lot longer.) Also, if you are using the topping life, mark that at the best hoist position. And, finally, know how long the pole should be for a broad reach and preset that before leaving the dock.

The SET

  1. Pre-set the genoa trim, then trot on up to the mast.
  2. Hook the outboard end to either the clew or sliding along the sheet. If you aren't using TL and fore guy on the pole, you will be able to control things better if you clip onto the clew, but making that initial hook up is more fussy and being connected at the clew limits what you can do should you need to make  rapid adjustments.
  3. With the TL pre-set, stand with your back pressed against the front of the mast and shove the pole outboard and forward until you can make the mast ring. That is a powerful posture and pretty secure as you form a tripod with the mast and your two feet spread apart and forward a bit.
  4. Now back to the cockpit for fine trim.

The DOUSE

  1. Reverse the set procedure. First pre-set the sheets, then pole off mast, then pole off clew. Then off the topping life.

The GYBE

  1. Douse the pole.
  2. Gybe the boat.
  3. Set the pole on new gybe.

NOTES

  • If you feel the boat is stable enough, you can leave the pole dangling from a center-mounted pre-set topping lift (bridle). This saves a bit of time.
  • The boat needs to be steered deeper than the pre-set sheet trim or you will struggle to make the mast.
  • Remember that the whisker pole is not as stout as the spinnaker pole so don't, you know... fold it in half.
  • Make sure the telescoping mechanism will stay locked even if the pole is twisting a bit. You may find that you want the pole pretty much the same length all the time. Consider locking in that length with a single pop rivet to prevent it from twisting into telescoping mode.
  • This is usually an end-for-end gybe and the douse-gybe-set procedure takes a lot fewer crew to execute smoothly compared to a dip-pole. Dip-pole with a pole longer than J becomes more complicated.

"You doing this short-handed?"

No; fully crewed W/L racing, but your thoughts were very valuable nonetheless.

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I suppose you have a furling genoa, then just use it, piece of cake to jibe and just as quick that way.

Always use a toppinglift, and in more wind you should also use a foreguy for better control of the pole.

With that 22' pole you should be able to carry it way forward, with perhaps a few turns furled, and then you can sail very deep, and even by the lee. A nice tactical advantage at times, particularly when you are on starboard.

 

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10 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

I suppose you have a furling genoa, then just use it, piece of cake to jibe and just as quick that way.

 

No roller furling. We normally race with kites and carbon pole etc., but for random reasons we have to sail jib and main for these races,.

End for end gybes aren't possible as there is a piston fitting on the mast. However, the pole extends/retracts with a line system.

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14 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

No roller furling. We normally race with kites and carbon pole etc., but for random reasons we have to sail jib and main for these races,.

End for end gybes aren't possible as there is a piston fitting on the mast. However, the pole extends/retracts with a line system.

pole is mounted on the boom and pulls forward with a control line, like a snipe?

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I have done essentially what SF woody stated and it's the way to go IMHO.  We usually use foreguy and topper on a standard spin pole. 

An extra step for you is to collapse the pole (trip it from the sail) then sky it on the mast if you want it to stay on the ring.  I usually connect to the lazy sheet and un-sky the pole THEN gybe.  Foredeck then helps genoa around and extends the pole. Then final trim by the rest of the crew.

--Kevin

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What we used to do on a 30' custom back in the day was end-for-end the pole, kind of like a spinnaker:

Un-hook the pole from the mast and attach the lazy sheet in the new outboard end

Release the old active sheet and move that end of the pole to the mast.

Overhaul the new sheet, pulling in-line with the pole and bringing the jib through the foretriangle, once the clew hits the pole the trimmer takes over and re-trims the jib. While this happens the boat is squared and the main pulled over to the new gybe. You have to make sure the trimmer follows the foredeck crew and only grinds hard once the clew is at the pole, not before. If they grind early it will snatch the sheet out of their hands and mess things up. We also used two crew to make things go fast.

edit: we also used the lazy sheet as a foreguy to hold the pole down, slipping through a ring at the base of a stantion.

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8 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

What we used to do on a 30' custom back in the day was end-for-end the pole, kind of like a spinnaker:

 

End for ending would simplify matters greatly, but I don't have that option as it is a piston fitting on the mast and a socket on the inboard end of the whisker pole.

I am thinking about running lazy sheets so it would be, more or less, like a dip pole gybe with the kite. Anybody tried this?

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2 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

No, this is a 36 footer. The pole attaches to the piston fitting on the mast like a dip-pole spinnaker pole with a topping lift and foreguy. However, when it is attached to the genoa to fly wing-on-wing you can extend the pole from 13 feet to 22 feet with a line.

https://www.forespar.com/products/line-control-whisker-pole-aluminum.shtml

so you have a full crew and plenty of gear.

My suggestion:

- rig lazy 'guys' both sides

-clip the pole to the guy

For gybing, bring the new guy forward, unclip pole from old guy, retract pole, gybe genny over the pole  set on sheet, dip pole and clip new guy as it passes forestay, tranfer load from sheet to guy.

 

basically pretend its a kite and   use it as practice for you kite gybes.

just saw SFwoody response. Ive never done this, but for the setup described its what I would try.

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This sounds like a fucking nightmare. Dumbest shit I have ever heard. Have any of you contributing to this thread ever done the bow on anything other than a Laser?

You all realize that the "Sheets and guys"  that you want to rig ALL have to go over the pole AND topping lift when you gybe?

 

 

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For dip poling you will need lazy guys. The best, easiest and safest way to douse is to sheet the sail aft until the leech is about to collapse (fastest sail trim anyway) and steer the boat up into the wind until the sail collapses and fills backwards through the foretriangle, then let the sheet go and sheet on the other side. Stroll up and remove the pole. The first time will seem counterintuitive and violent, but it really is the easiest, I've raced similar boats 2 sail a lot. 

The most important point is to not let the loaded sheet go until the sail is fully inverted through the hole, otherwise you have just made a big mess. 

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1 hour ago, JohnMB said:

so you have a full crew and plenty of gear.

My suggestion:

- rig lazy 'guys' both sides

-clip the pole to the guy

For gybing, bring the new guy forward, unclip pole from old guy, retract pole, gybe genny over the pole  set on sheet, dip pole and clip new guy as it passes forestay, tranfer load from sheet to guy.

 

basically pretend its a kite and   use it as practice for you kite gybes.

just saw SFwoody response. Ive never done this, but for the setup described its what I would try.

OMFG...... 

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2 hours ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

For dip poling you will need lazy guys. The best, easiest and safest way to douse is to sheet the sail aft until the leech is about to collapse (fastest sail trim anyway) and steer the boat up into the wind until the sail collapses and fills backwards through the foretriangle, then let the sheet go and sheet on the other side. Stroll up and remove the pole. The first time will seem counterintuitive and violent, but it really is the easiest, I've raced similar boats 2 sail a lot. 

The most important point is to not let the loaded sheet go until the sail is fully inverted through the hole, otherwise you have just made a big mess. 

You already have a lazy guy, the other jib sheet, just do the same as I described except bring the pole through and clip-in the lazy sheet. Then pull the sheet to bring the jib over without it flying forward and trying to wrap sound the headstay. When you pull it through it will keep pressure in the sail and it will flop through, almost like an inside gybe on an assym.

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Just pretend it's a spinnaker, you already know how to dip that... 

the ugly bit is if you (need to) bring your genoa inside the forestay to gybe vs outside as a spinnaker would go as there's less room for the pole. 

If your track were high enough, you could run the inboard end up and gybe the genoa over it inside the forestay while  outer end was in the pulpit area. 

Does the pole, fully collapsed dip nicely?  Getting the whole mess fouled is pretty easy if the foredeck is not paying attention, don't ask...

 

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Yes, the track goes up pretty high, and with the pole collapsed it dips fine. But as you say it is a bit of spaghetti up there. Getting the non working sheet into the jaws and then the sailed gybed through never seems to work quite right which is why I am thinking lazy sheets might help.

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4 hours ago, RATM said:

This sounds like a fucking nightmare. Dumbest shit I have ever heard. Have any of you contributing to this thread ever done the bow on anything other than a Laser?

You all realize that the "Sheets and guys"  that you want to rig ALL have to go over the pole AND topping lift when you gybe?

 

 

Yes,

the guy has a full racing crew and is sailing jib and main, this is just practice for a new bowperson because the consequences of fucking it up are less severe than with a real kite.

 

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I tried a couple of those telescoping whisker poles - their 10-18 foot version.  One broke where the smaller tube goes into the larger tube, and the other one has been hanging in my garage for several years (I would happily give it away).

The trouble is they start to jam almost immediately.  I tried cleaning it and wiping it down before every use - it didn't help.  And if it gets the slightest bend (not a kink, just a slight bend) it's even worse.  Also, as you discovered, you can't end-for-end it.  You shouldn't need to dip-pole gybe a whisker pole.

I gave up and bought a fixed pole of the correct length for the sail I wanted to wing out.  Final thought:  Once the telescoping pole won't collapse any more, the fixed pole is just as easy to store!

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4 hours ago, RATM said:

You all realize that the "Sheets and guys"  that you want to rig ALL have to go over the pole AND topping lift when you gybe?

 

 

I was trying to figure out what I'd missed in all the discussion above...I do bow on a Sydney 38 and yes - I've always thought the process was to fire the pole to release the active sheet, run the topper back towards the mast so that the heady clears it through the gybe, then load the new active sheet into the beak.  Not that anyone has shown me - that's just what I figured out, so...

It's not a telescoping pole - just the normal spin pole - but that shouldn't make any difference??

I am keen to find out if there's a better way.  Bearing in mind we only ever do it on Wednesday Twilights (AKA Beercans?) and the boys at the back have normally had a few beers by the time we go downwind and aren't interested in too much fancy shit.

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27 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

If your track were high enough, you could run the inboard end up and gybe the genoa over it inside the forestay while  outer end was in the pulpit area. 

^^^  I guess skying the inboard end as high as possible would help with the topper...

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1 hour ago, PITA said:

.I do bow on a Sydney 38 and yes - I've always thought the process was to fire the pole to release the active sheet, run the topper back towards the mast so that the heady clears it through the gybe, then load the new active sheet into the beak.  Not that anyone has shown me - that's just what I figured out, so...

It's not a telescoping pole - just the normal spin pole - but that shouldn't make any difference??

I am keen to find out if there's a better way.  Bearing in mind we only ever do it on Wednesday Twilights (AKA Beercans?) and the boys at the back have normally had a few beers by the time we go downwind and aren't interested in too much fancy shit.

Similar, but slightly different, situation. My boat is a masthead 36 footer so the fore-triangle is roughly the same size as the Sydney 38. If sailing with a #3 or non-overlapping headsail this is all very simple, and the regular carbon pole would work fine.

The issue is with the 155%. The regular spinnaker pole (13'6") is not nearly long enough to project the clew out far enough, it needs to be closer to 20 feet at which point it is really holding the genoa out hard as desired to project max area DDW. Imagine we are gybing from starboard to port. So if you trip the jaws and blow the topper the pole still won't fall off the starboard working sheet because the sheet is pulling inboard. So you ease the jibsheet enough to unload the pole tip at which point the headsail obviously collapses. Maybe the answer there is to shorten the pole first so it will drop off the working sheet. Then pull on the port sheet to pull the genoa through the gybe (with the beak in the pulpit and the sheets led above the topper). Meanwhile the back of the boat gybes the main. So now we are on port. If the genoa is full the sheet is too far away to grab it and put it in the beak. If it is collapsed, well then you are going slow. This is where the lazy sheet would come in handy. The cockpit could keep the genoa full on the lazy sheet while the bow team takes its time getting the lazy sheet in the jaws, squared back, pole extended, topper on then transfer the load...

 

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2 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Yes, the track goes up pretty high, and with the pole collapsed it dips fine. But as you say it is a bit of spaghetti up there. Getting the non working sheet into the jaws and then the sailed gybed through never seems to work quite right which is why I am thinking lazy sheets might help.

We had a fixed, maybe 10% oversized pole for the jib and end-for ended. The extended one end pole jams things up a little.

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4 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Similar, but slightly different, situation. My boat is a masthead 36 footer so the fore-triangle is roughly the same size as the Sydney 38. If sailing with a #3 or non-overlapping headsail this is all very simple, and the regular carbon pole would work fine.

The issue is with the 155%. The regular spinnaker pole (13'6") is not nearly long enough to project the clew out far enough, it needs to be closer to 20 feet at which point it is really holding the genoa out hard as desired to project max area DDW. Imagine we are gybing from starboard to port. So if you trip the jaws and blow the topper the pole still won't fall off the starboard working sheet because the sheet is pulling inboard. So you ease the jibsheet enough to unload the pole tip at which point the headsail obviously collapses. Maybe the answer there is to shorten the pole first so it will drop off the working sheet. Then pull on the port sheet to pull the genoa through the gybe (with the beak in the pulpit and the sheets led above the topper). Meanwhile the back of the boat gybes the main. So now we are on port. If the genoa is full the sheet is too far away to grab it and put it in the beak. If it is collapsed, well then you are going slow. This is where the lazy sheet would come in handy. The cockpit could keep the genoa full on the lazy sheet while the bow team takes its time getting the lazy sheet in the jaws, squared back, pole extended, topper on then transfer the load...

 

Put the sheet on and pull the jib through the triangle before it is loaded on the new windward side. Over-haul it along the length of the pole once it is extended back to full length and then have the trimmer take it the rest of the way through. The jib hanging behind the main for a few won't hurt much in the long run.

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6 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

By insisting on dip-pole, you are complicating things way more than they ought to be.

 

I am not insisting on dip-pole for reasons of dogma. The track has a piston fitting (not a ring) and the extendable whisker pole has a socket and extends from the inboard end. This is the setup I have, and the race is Saturday.

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Can't you remove the pole from the jib and mast, walk it back on deck, jibe, then hook it up on the new side?

I've done this on a boat where we sailed with an overlength spin pole and asym kites. 

It seems a lot cleaner than dipping an overlength pole. 

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20 minutes ago, Alex W said:

Can't you remove the pole from the jib and mast, walk it back on deck, jibe, then hook it up on the new side?

I've done this on a boat where we sailed with an overlength spin pole and asym kites. 

It seems a lot cleaner than dipping an overlength pole. 

In principle, yes. In practice, it is easier said than done. With the inboard end bucking around like a bronco it is not a trivial task to get it onto the piston fitting.

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53 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

In principle, yes. In practice, it is easier said than done. With the inboard end bucking around like a bronco it is not a trivial task to get it onto the piston fitting.

On the boat that I did this on the bow held the pole (which had a small handle tethered at the midpoint) and the mast person guided it onto the piston.  It sounds like you are fully crewed and could do the same?  For context this my experience on a Santa Cruz 50, so the overlength pole for asyms was probably 20-22 feet and about 5" in diameter (I think it was originally a J length spin pole on a SC70).

I'm used to dip jibes and our Express 37 is setup with a piston fitting too, I just don't think that they are ideal for greater than J length poles.

 

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2 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

I am not insisting on dip-pole for reasons of dogma. The track has a piston fitting (not a ring) and the extendable whisker pole has a socket and extends from the inboard end. This is the setup I have, and the race is Saturday.

$300 plus 30 minutes plus tools you already have

mast_slider_kit.thumb.jpg.83e4a01d84dc4f4357c209a15b0b649a.jpg

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22 minutes ago, Alex W said:

On the boat that I did this on the bow held the pole (which had a small handle tethered at the midpoint) and the mast person guided it onto the piston.  It sounds like you are fully crewed and could do the same?  For context this my experience on a Santa Cruz 50, so the overlength pole for asyms was probably 20-22 feet and about 5" in diameter (I think it was originally a J length spin pole on a SC70).

I'm used to dip jibes and our Express 37 is setup with a piston fitting too, I just don't think that they are ideal for greater than J length poles.

 

We can give that a try.

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Lazy sheets on a Genoa is a lot of cordage on one clew. 

Why not drop the pole off (shortening if needed), fly the Genoa by hand for a few seconds while gibing the pole, gybe the Genoa, hook it up, extend pole and gybe main ? 

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1 hour ago, LionessRacing said:

Lazy sheets on a Genoa is a lot of cordage on one clew. 

Why not drop the pole off (shortening if needed), fly the Genoa by hand for a few seconds while gibing the pole, gybe the Genoa, hook it up, extend pole and gybe main ? 

Should work, SF indicated that they are having issues getting the pole off the working clew without collapsing the sail. So that's probably the main thing to practice.

There is an option to clip on hook-down instead of hook-up, and then uses the topper to lift the pole off the sheet.

It would make for a weird pole tip dance, , -lift, -shorten, -dip, -clip new sheet... for the gybe you then probably need the bow person to do the initial sheet in  on the new sheet, to get the clew across and figure the best time to extend the pole.

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Go out early before the first race and try out the different methods proposed here and see which one works best with the equipment and crew available, however I really don't thing you need sheets and guys on a goosewinged genoa.

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51 minutes ago, Tunnel Rat said:

Go out early before the first race and try out the different methods proposed here and see which one works best with the equipment and crew available, however I really don't thing you need sheets and guys on a goosewinged genoa.

Excellent thoughts, thank you. That is our plan.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one’s perspective) the reliable sea breeze here often means that we go from water-ski quality glass water to 14 knots from 225 magnetic in approximately 30 seconds at 12:03. The R/C knows this, obviously, which means the first gun is reliably at 12:15 with the drop marks already in position. Great, right?! In many respects yes. Efficient use of racing time. No competitors aimlessly motoring around bitching  

 Except it leaves zero time, in prevailing breeze, to: check draft position in headsail, verify lead position, double check rig, including rake and back stay setup, starting line bias, etc. Forget about a half hour to do practice novel boat handling procedures. 

I do not expect that I shall gather enormous amounts of sympathy for having reliable weather and a crack R/C team in my venue. 

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I got sick of reading but it sounds like everything is being over-complicated.  The point behind no extras racing is that its easy.

1. release pole from windward side and let it return to leeward side.

2. Take you time get it sorted with pole.

3. Gybe main. 

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9 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Excellent thoughts, thank you. That is our plan.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one’s perspective) the reliable sea breeze here often means that we go from water-ski quality glass water to 14 knots from 225 magnetic in approximately 30 seconds at 12:03. The R/C knows this, obviously, which means the first gun is reliably at 12:15 with the drop marks already in position. Great, right?! In many respects yes. Efficient use of racing time. No competitors aimlessly motoring around bitching  

 Except it leaves zero time, in prevailing breeze, to: check draft position in headsail, verify lead position, double check rig, including rake and back stay setup, starting line bias, etc. Forget about a half hour to do practice novel boat handling procedures. 

I do not expect that I shall gather enormous amounts of sympathy for having reliable weather and a crack R/C team in my venue. 

If wind speed is really that reliable you should be able to get your settings pretty much dialed in before the wind fills in, and just have minor tweaks to do on the first beat. 

Plus, it doesn't fill any earlier for your competition, so level playing field. 

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Definitely take your time! Try every fucking method posted here, at least twice, in SF bay in the afternoon.

If you survive that, buy and install a furler, and relax.

Quite honestly, I have not seen any sane person on a regular cruise/racer without one, in the last 25 years.

 

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ask any Cal 20 dude in LB how it works...very simple, you can build it yourself

Ain't no need for a dip

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Okay-- Haven't read all the other posts...

Do it like the Knarr's do:

Install a wire ring on the clew of the jib. (covered whatever small wire)

Gibe the jib first. Leave the pole attached to the wire ring. Release the windward sheet and allow the pole to fall to the forestay. Bowman relapses the pole from the mast. He/she pulls the pole back from the pole at he forestay  allowing the mast end to slide back against the forestay and project back between the mast and the shrouds. Once the outboard  tip is clear of the forestay the bow-unit pushes the pole forward on the current leeward side of the forestay. Attach mast end of pole back onto mast. Pull former lazy sheet back as you gibe the main.

Crew must be aware of the need to slack the pole down fucker/foreguy  as required depending on how you've rigged all this crap.

Pole  topping lift is not as critical--- depending on you setup.

Retracting the telescoping pole and re extending it may add some drama if needed.

Gibing the main before the pole is re-attached to the mast will provide expensive entertainment for your competitor and sail makers. 

Works on a Knarr without Topping lift or foreguy with a fixed length pole. Still exciting downwind in 25 to 30 with no lifelines.

Does any of this seem plausible?

I admit to being a couple of Martinis in at the moment...

P.S. The key is to keep the outboard end of the pole attached the the clew of the jib/genny via the wire ring.

Gibing the Jib first allows the main to blanket the potential chaos if you're trying to do this after the main has gibed.

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This is too late, but we raced Catalina 30’s  in level cruising class racing with  150 jib and main when I first started racing. One of my friends took his 30 up to SF for the C-30 Nationals. We won the cruising class using a retractable whisker pole. The jibing method was simple like the Kmarts mentioned earlier. We put a solid ring on the clew instead of a wire loop. It makes it easy to attach the pole for DW  and you never remove it from the clew down wind. The  ring can twist so the sail doesn’t get distorted. No topping lift need if there is any wind as the sail will want to lift. Here is our jibing  technique. Head ddw collapse the pole then we could push the pole and sail through the forteriangle as our pole just fit with the mast end at the height  we liked for sail shape. The old lazy sheet was trimmed to help pull sail through. Jibe the main over staying low and extend the pole while keeping it off the forestay. Once fully extended trim on new sheet and head up. To keep the pole from lifting too much we Hooke the new lazy sheet over the bow cleat opposite the pole and then trimmed it to tension and keep the pole where we wanted. Bow had to remember to unhook the lazy sheet before  jibing. Each sheet had a trimmer. In your case if the pole is too long to push through attached and you have  a adjustable mast car fitting you can raise the mast end to push the pole trough and then lower to correct height.  In big wind we would double jibe to blanket the jib to retract and extend by the main. This is a super easy way to jibe a retractable whisker pole and very fast.

PHRF didn’t allow a full length whisker pole but our C-30 association did.  J is 11.5 and our pole was 10-18’Which allowed full extension  on a

C -30 150 jib and allowed us to jibe with out removing the pole.  

The South Bay invitational in SAn Diego  invited us (C-30s) to race with them one year and started us with similar rated spin boats. With our fast jibing and fully extended jibs we clean up beating some spin boats boat for boat and corrected  out to win the class.  We could sail lower  and faster. Boats racing PHFH jib and main should lobby to change the rules to let whisker poles extend to 155  jib length  and make jib and main sailing more fun and faster.

to the poster who complained about the line adjustable whisker poles if you dent them they will stick and you can break them in big wind if you buy  too small of diameter tubes.

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On 4/26/2019 at 10:55 AM, SF Woody Sailor said:

Excellent thoughts, thank you. That is our plan.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one’s perspective) the reliable sea breeze here often means that we go from water-ski quality glass water to 14 knots from 225 magnetic in approximately 30 seconds at 12:03. The R/C knows this, obviously, which means the first gun is reliably at 12:15 with the drop marks already in position. Great, right?! In many respects yes. Efficient use of racing time. No competitors aimlessly motoring around bitching  

 Except it leaves zero time, in prevailing breeze, to: check draft position in headsail, verify lead position, double check rig, including rake and back stay setup, starting line bias, etc. Forget about a half hour to do practice novel boat handling procedures. 

I do not expect that I shall gather enormous amounts of sympathy for having reliable weather and a crack R/C team in my venue. 

So what did you do and how did it work out?

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12 hours ago, Tunnel Rat said:

So what did you do and how did it work out?

As it turned out it was quite breezy so we sailed with the #3 which meant we could use the normal carbon spinnaker pole, and it was a non-issue. However, we have three more race days when we have to sail Jib and Main so the thread wasn't a waste. We also sail JAM in beercans so it was a worthwhile topic.

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15 hours ago, tweaker said:

This is too late, but we raced Catalina 30’s  in level cruising class racing with  150 jib and main when I first started racing. One of my friends took his 30 up to SF for the C-30 Nationals. We won the cruising class using a retractable whisker pole. The jibing method was simple like the Kmarts mentioned earlier. We put a solid ring on the clew instead of a wire loop. It makes it easy to attach the pole for DW  and you never remove it from the clew down wind. The  ring can twist so the sail doesn’t get distorted. No topping lift need if there is any wind as the sail will want to lift. Here is our jibing  technique. Head ddw collapse the pole then we could push the pole and sail through the forteriangle as our pole just fit with the mast end at the height  we liked for sail shape. The old lazy sheet was trimmed to help pull sail through. Jibe the main over staying low and extend the pole while keeping it off the forestay. Once fully extended trim on new sheet and head up. To keep the pole from lifting too much we Hooke the new lazy sheet over the bow cleat opposite the pole and then trimmed it to tension and keep the pole where we wanted. Bow had to remember to unhook the lazy sheet before  jibing. Each sheet had a trimmer. In your case if the pole is too long to push through attached and you have  a adjustable mast car fitting you can raise the mast end to push the pole trough and then lower to correct height.  In big wind we would double jibe to blanket the jib to retract and extend by the main. This is a super easy way to jibe a retractable whisker pole and very fast.

PHRF didn’t allow a full length whisker pole but our C-30 association did.  J is 11.5 and our pole was 10-18’Which allowed full extension  on a

C -30 150 jib and allowed us to jibe with out removing the pole.  

The South Bay invitational in SAn Diego  invited us (C-30s) to race with them one year and started us with similar rated spin boats. With our fast jibing and fully extended jibs we clean up beating some spin boats boat for boat and corrected  out to win the class.  We could sail lower  and faster. Boats racing PHFH jib and main should lobby to change the rules to let whisker poles extend to 155  jib length  and make jib and main sailing more fun and faster.

to the poster who complained about the line adjustable whisker poles if you dent them they will stick and you can break them in big wind if you buy  too small of diameter tubes.

Great feedback, thank you! This is precisely what I was looking for. I will put a loop on the clew next time. That narration of the gybe makes perfect sense, and it sounds as if we wouldn't need a foreguy so the spaghetti is simplified.

As long as you are around I will be greedy and ask about the set. If we assume you are on starboard tack coming to the weather mark for a port rounding bear away how do you conveniently get the loop into the jaws?

The douse seems straightforward.

Thanks again!

 

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I did the bow on my boat sometimes but was usually driving. For the set our pole was light and about 10’ retracted. Standing at the mast by the forward shroud with the mast end of the pole push aft past the starboard side of the mast we would grab the lazy sheet or the sheet as it was eased  during the rounding and pulled the clew to us as the sail is blanketed by the main then using the ring snap it into the outboard end of the pole and then push the pole forward and slam it on our mast ring. You would insert onto your car. We only need one bow man, you could use two. One by the shrouds for the clew attachment and one at the mast end to insert and extend .Once on the pole and sail can either be jibed across to windward and then extended to stay on starboard  or extended on port for an immediate jibe, like a jibe set. Of course the appropriate sheet would be trimmed on after the pole extension.  You can figure out how the remove the pole before the windward rounding. We collapsed it removed it from the mast and then pulled the clew to us and released the ring. You may figure out a way to drop the pole off the ring  after colasping and leave the pole on the mast. Maybe a bowman up front to remove pole and then lower  the mast car with a mastman/ extender/ retracted  at the mast. Maybe the bowman can pull the clew forward at the windward mark on the rounding and insert the ring if leaving the pole on the mast. 

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1 hour ago, tweaker said:

I did the bow on my boat sometimes but was usually driving. For the set our pole was light and about 10’ retracted. Standing at the mast by the forward shroud with the mast end of the pole push aft past the starboard side of the mast we would grab the lazy sheet or the sheet as it was eased  during the rounding and pulled the clew to us as the sail is blanketed by the main then using the ring snap it into the outboard end of the pole and then push the pole forward and slam it on our mast ring. You would insert onto your car. We only need one bow man, you could use two. One by the shrouds for the clew attachment and one at the mast end to insert and extend .Once on the pole and sail can either be jibed across to windward and then extended to stay on starboard  or extended on port for an immediate jibe, like a jibe set. Of course the appropriate sheet would be trimmed on after the pole extension.  You can figure out how the remove the pole before the windward rounding. We collapsed it removed it from the mast and then pulled the clew to us and released the ring. You may figure out a way to drop the pole off the ring  after colasping and leave the pole on the mast. Maybe a bowman up front to remove pole and then lower  the mast car with a mastman/ extender/ retracted  at the mast. Maybe the bowman can pull the clew forward at the windward mark on the rounding and insert the ring if leaving the pole on the mast. 

Thank you.

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