terrafirma

Black Jack, Nose Job Arse Lift

Recommended Posts

From Anarchist David: Can't see a thread on the pending BJ mods? If this is the case certainly interesting times for the 100 fleet.

Well, consider the photo above, taken of the veteran 100-footer Black Jack before the start of the last Sydney-Hobart race. If word on the waterfront is right, that section of hull is just about all that will be left of the old Reichel-Pugh after the radical mods being planned for its bow and stern.

It’s not as if this 14-year-old supermaxi is slow. Originally built for Neville “Croaky” Crichton in 2005 and campaigned as Alfa Romeo, she beat Wild Oats XI for line honours in the 2009 Hobart race before being sold and raced in the Northern Hemisphere as Europa.

Brought back to Australia by Queensland property mogul Peter Harburg, the 100-footer was refurbished and re-named Black Jack after the late Australian Grand Prix motor racing champion, Jack Brabham.

Meanwhile, in late 2015, WOXI – a virtually identical Reichel-Pugh – underwent extensive plastic surgery. In an attempt to match the off-wind speed of Comancheand reduce the supermaxi’s nose-diving, six feet was lopped off the stern and nearly 40 feet removed ahead of the mast. A complete new – and longer – bow section was then fitted. In effect, this moved the mast aft to the middle of the boat.

But controversy remains about another feature of those Wild Oats renovations. The bowsprit was grafted into a newly curved stem profile, much like a traditional clipper bow. Many commentators at the time believed this broke a number of rules, including those that govern maximum LOA for the Hobart race, the limits of the “working deck” area and the requirement that a spar such as a bowsprit should be detachable.

With far less radical modifications, Black Jack then proved herself to still be competitive at the front of the fleet. She was always ‘there or thereabouts’, matching Wild Oats in most conditions and sometimes sailing slightly quicker in light-to-moderate air. She was leading the 2018 Sydney-Hobart and might well have won but for some unlucky holes and shifts rounding Tasman Island on the final day.

But it seems there are now major changes underway for Black Jack. Perhaps ironically, it is the bowsprit that may have given us the first hint. While the yacht and crew were in Queensland trying to break their own elapsed time record for the Brisbane to Gladstone race, a specialist carbon fabrication shop in Sydney was commissioned to make Black Jack a new bowsprit.

Why would she need that? Well, news has leaked that McConaghy’s, the boat builders who made both Alfa Romeo and WOXI, are constructing not just a whole new for’d section for Black Jack, but a broadened aft section as well. It seems that owner Peter Harburg wants to have the combined advantages a wider stern, and a mast position that puts the boat’s centre of effort in the most efficient place. Only the middle section of the hull – and the deck layout – is likely to survive.

Those mods will cost millions. Is there no end to the determination of some millionaires who can’t be happy until they’ve won Sydney-Hobart line honours? And the added spice to this unfolding saga is that Harburg was the owner who first raised the issue of Wild Oats XI not transmitting from its AIS during the 2018 race. He didn’t protest, but there’s little doubt the manner of that loss still rankles with him.

As the old proverb goes, “revenge is a meal best served cold”.   

black-jack.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are they getting the fried splitter upgrade at the same time? 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A huge effort by the BJ team, tho they probably should have done this 5yrs ago. Leaving LH trophy hunting pretty late ... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SCANAS said:

A huge effort by the BJ team, tho they probably should have done this 5yrs ago. Leaving LH trophy hunting pretty late ... 

Narrows the field really considering Oats defeating Comanche of late. BJ will end up with more beam than Oats and hull form stability you'd think. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Narrows the field really considering Oats defeating Comanche of late. BJ will end up with more beam than Oats and hull form stability you'd think. 

I meant OATS has been doing it for 14yrs now. Perhaps the owner should have skipped the 70 & went straight to a 100. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, terrafirma said:

She was leading the 2018 Sydney-Hobart and might well have won but for some unlucky holes and shifts rounding Tasman Island on the final day.

That's horseshit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Tropical Madness said:

who is designing it? kudos to dropping a few mil.

Would be interesting to know? Did we ever know who designed the Oats mods? Interesting re the bowspirit comments on Oats basically saying it has increased the LOA and therefore broken the 100' limit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

RP have designed both BJ and WOXI's mods with Steve Quigley also involved with Oats

Cheers Jack makes sense. I wonder if the small amount of extra beam BJ has will help with her hull form stability in broad reaching conditions? This is the one area they can't touch Comanche but so far we never seem to get those conditions for too long. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Cheers Jack makes sense. I wonder if the small amount of extra beam BJ has will help with her hull form stability in broad reaching conditions? This is the one area they can't touch Comanche but so far we never seem to get those conditions for too long. 

What are the average wind speeds in this race? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The last edition in particular really sealed it for BJ doing a WOXI style mod as simply head to head with WOXI she struggled at nearly every TWA and TWS. Commanche really wasn't a factor as that race had two anomalies, a favourable TWA when things went light and a quiet sea state kept her in the game in addition to some very slick sailing.

The simple fact of life is the S2H is like no other 600 miler weather variability and sea state wise where without a purpose built platform your are going to struggle in all but the occasional year in a big boat. The S2H is probably the most least suitable race for Commanche on planet earth. Elsewhere arguably she is unbeatable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, him&her said:

What are the average wind speeds in this race? 

Average out 80 and 0.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Would be interesting to know? Did we ever know who designed the Oats mods? Interesting re the bowspirit comments on Oats basically saying it has increased the LOA and therefore broken the 100' limit. 

That was put to bed before the 2015 SH mate. Bowsprit = ok

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

The last edition in particular really sealed it for BJ doing a WOXI style mod as simply head to head with WOXI she struggled at nearly every TWA and TWS. Commanche really wasn't a factor as that race had two anomalies, a favourable TWA when things went light and a quiet sea state kept her in the game in addition to some very slick sailing.

The simple fact of life is the S2H is like no other 600 miler weather variability and sea state wise where without a purpose built platform your are going to struggle in all but the occasional year in a big boat. The S2H is probably the most least suitable race for Commanche on planet earth. Elsewhere arguably she is unbeatable.

I wonder if Jim Cooney received this advice prior to purchasing Comanche? If she doesn't win this year Jack you have to wonder where the boat will end up?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

That was put to bed before the 2015 SH mate. Bowsprit = ok

Yes but it  seems the Wild Oats style bow will be part of BJ's mods so there must be an advantage other than structural?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

I wonder if Jim Cooney received this advice prior to purchasing Comanche? 

Terra I don't know JC other than a hullo but from what I gather and seen he is probably more atune to Comanche's strengths and weaknesses than the guy who sunk all that money into building her. Albeit his motivation was more than just LH by going un-powered to go record chasing. JC's post purchase program underpins that and one I was sceptical of and proved wrong this last S2H outing. He wringed everything he had out of what he had. Furthermore I'm sure he will get a better return in the dollar when and if he ever sells her, where ever she ends up.

However the realities of life are we probably won't see ever again a boat like Comanche ever built again until someone works out how to make a 30+ tonne (dry) boat foil. Don't hold your breath.

That then begs the question being is Commanche the next one in line for a major "cut and shunt" like WOXI and now BJ? I think not as they are both 15 year old designs now playing "hull form" and "mast/power location" and righting moment catchup. Comanche is already largely there but not suited to average S2H conditions. Those are also two big boats as an aberatation and world wide statistical imbalance in terms of ownership and fiscal ability to spend on one race, just the S2H.

Australia while lauding it is the world wide home of the 100', in reality it is like some cult trying to keep Dinosaurs alive. It reminds me of the early 90's when the Maxi Class imploded.

The future and those like @Andrew Buckland looking to break the "100' glass ceiling" are to be applauded and should be given every encouragement chasing that current sub 10 tonne dry and smaller boat to take LH. However my fear is the Dinosaurs at both big boat ownership and Race Organiser level in Australia, they will put up every road block up they can to support their investment in old bones and just make Australia even more irrelevant. That is even before you broach the SH and Multi hate club.

Australian offshore sailing fell off the mantelpiece decades ago, the penny it seems takes a long time to drop for some.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cheers Jack. We know Jim will campaign Comanche as well as possible so for now the 100' fleet are living dinosaurs. If Jim agrees Jack perhaps he will be the one to buy Hugo Boss for a shot at the Hobart. Beg's the question could the current HB get to Hobart before the 100's.? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Beg's the question could the current HB get to Hobart before the 100's.? 

According to @Andrew Buckland in that vid based on VPP even with the race course backend soft stuff that happened, yes HB at 60' even with no rudder T's would have been first over the line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

Yes but it  seems the Wild Oats style bow will be part of BJ's mods so there must be an advantage other than structural?

The sprit obviously adds a wee bit of surface area to the bow might have a 0.0001% affect on pitching, the WOXI bow is much finer post nose job. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Yes but it  seems the Wild Oats style bow will be part of BJ's mods so there must be an advantage other than structural?

I would hazard a guess that the advantage is completely structural regarding the sprit. Having extra structure in the part that has been controversial certainly adds a fair amount of support area where the sprit connects to the hull. 

I did find it interesting that it was interpreted the way it was though, regarding LOA.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking forward to it. Bradford knows whats best for the boat and there's no doubt these boys put a good campaign together. They also have the advantage of knowing the Oats configuration and mods. Initially the same when Bob Oatley commissioned Oats, he simply said make me a faster one than Alfa Romeo. They won't be undertaking all this work simply to catch up to Oats, they wan't faster.!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So what will become of the Tungsten bulb? The amount of skin grafting will be in similiar order of magnitude as WOXI - so it will be bulb forfeiture time.... Will they introduce their own version of lateral foils (read: DSS without licence) for speed gains. What about rig? Multiple spreader fixed tubes are getting long in the tooth for sail designers....... Is now the time for a full system re-boot?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Boink said:

Will they introduce their own version of lateral foils (read: DSS without licence) for speed gains. 

Lateral foils hasn't worked well for WOXI and Rambler to date.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Boink said:

So what will become of the Tungsten bulb? The amount of skin grafting will be in similiar order of magnitude as WOXI - so it will be bulb forfeiture time.... Will they introduce their own version of lateral foils (read: DSS without licence) for speed gains. What about rig? Multiple spreader fixed tubes are getting long in the tooth for sail designers....... Is now the time for a full system re-boot?

I think I read somewhere that the tungsten bulb is gone already

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't be stupid for Comanche to retrofit some IMOCA style foils to keep ahead of the game. 

Is there rules against this?

If so surely not for long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Sugarscoop said:

Wouldn't be stupid for Comanche to retrofit some IMOCA style foils to keep ahead of the game. 

Is there rules against this?

If so surely not for long.

Maybe you should first look up what a 100' displaces v sailpower. You over 20 tonne out for starters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Comanche renderings did show J boards. They don’t need to lift it clear. Has the HP!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

I think I read somewhere that the tungsten bulb is gone already

I believe the tungsten bulb is still there plus a longer fin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Scan question you then have to ask is why weren't they adopted? It certainly wasn't money/budget.

Question for someone with much more knowledge but you would think comanche still has a few tricks up it’s sleeve. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SloopJohnB said:

I believe the tungsten bulb is still there plus a longer fin.

I stand corrected, thought the grandfather provision was lost if they changed the fin.  Strange that WOXI ditched theirs.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, SCANAS said:

Comanche renderings did show J boards. They don’t need to lift it clear. Has the HP!

Plus it's sticky enough in the light stuff already.  It would be way worse with J boards.  J Boards would make it even more of a one trick pony than it is now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SloopJohnB said:

I believe the tungsten bulb is still there plus a longer fin.

I think the reason they kept a small rig and optimized for the light air is because they did keep the bulb, but had the keep the original fin as well, which didn't draw anywhere near as much as what Wild Oats currently has. The tungsten bulb was grandfathered in by IRC, but they weren't allowed to change the keel at all, or they'd lose the grandfather status. 

The call was made when the boat was acquired to optimize for the light end of the spectrum, as WOXI was currently going through her major reconstruction to make her more competitive uprange with Comanche. 

So they had a self imposed righting moment limitation, which they were hoping would be overcome by the reduced wetted surface (frontal cross section area, really) of the tungsten bulb. There apparently hasn't been enough light wind for this to matter when it counts (Hobart race). And Wild Oats with a taller rig and more sail area could easily overcome the "disadvantage" of carrying a standard bulb versus one containing tungsten.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said:

I think the reason they kept a small rig and optimized for the light air is because they did keep the bulb, but had the keep the original fin as well, which didn't draw anywhere near as much as what Wild Oats currently has. The tungsten bulb was grandfathered in by IRC, but they weren't allowed to change the keel at all, or they'd lose the grandfather status. 

The call was made when the boat was acquired to optimize for the light end of the spectrum, as WOXI was currently going through her major reconstruction to make her more competitive uprange with Comanche. 

So they had a self imposed righting moment limitation, which they were hoping would be overcome by the reduced wetted surface (frontal cross section area, really) of the tungsten bulb. There apparently hasn't been enough light wind for this to matter when it counts (Hobart race). And Wild Oats with a taller rig and more sail area could easily overcome the "disadvantage" of carrying a standard bulb versus one containing tungsten.

The latest ORCi certificate still carries a note that the Tungsten bulb is still there - but it's possible it simply hasn't been updated as there's also a note on there about dock heel angle that's out of date.  Dunno.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, DickDastardly said:

The latest ORCi certificate still carries a note that the Tungsten bulb is still three - but it's possible it wasn't updated as there's also a note about dock heel angle that's out of date.  Dunno.

 

Right, I was saying that I don't think the keel was able to be changed as they would have lost the grandfather status of the tungsten bulb.  They made the call to optimize around light weight and less wetted surface, while knowing that the other similar boat (WOXI) had much more righting moment capability.. purely due to her deeper keel fin, as WOXI is a bit narrower than BJ100.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Commanche didnt launch with Dali-esque foils because of her age.

Launched Sept 2014 - a year before Hugo Boss - and many, many generations of foil development ago. Look at how foil lengths have lengthened whilst reducing in Chord. The material science alone is what has released these new shapes

So whilst she has Verdier and VPLP DNA within her; just a little too early for what is being seen now as on say Sam Davies Initiatives Coeurs. The loads that these 2 boats generate, would be of a magnitude of difference.

Bet that some questions have been asked or proposed as to what you could do with her though. Maybe the Supermaxi owners have a cartel that has pencilled in one boat per year to carry out some plastic surgery to their mistresses ;) - its Peter Harburgs year currently........ Would certainly help stimulate some interest in the S2H outside of douchebaggery.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These are original renderings of J boards Scan spoke off. In their first Hobart win in 2015 they were forced to drop out a board (that then took out a rudder bar that they fixed). They would have had to chop these off.

 

New3_5.thumb.jpg.f5ef13bb906ac7be03c344d3cd17419e.jpg

billionaire-netscape-founder-launches-super-fast-yacht-5309-8856892.jpg.559ac4a75865481209ccfda577bb741b.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No good for sunfish anyway!

I’m sure there are some options for the aircraft carrier modifications wise. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

or was RQYS just looking for a talking-point bar that was pre-fabbed?

That would look cool 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Flippin Out said:

Someone's gotta say it..................the back fell off ???

i think you'll find that is still classified as the bow falling off.  its just a really big piece.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Either end would look good on my wall,  might need a bigger lounge room for the front bit though!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't wait to see what they come if with for the new stern section? Doesn't look like that's a lot to work with? I wonder were the old stern will end up? Someone's garage already booked in....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

I can't wait to see what they come if with for the new stern section? Doesn't look like that's a lot to work with? I wonder were the old stern will end up? Someone's garage already booked in....

Probably more of an add more on the bow rather than a proper new stern...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Pretty sure half of what they've cut of there was already an add on.

Good point. Is that the 98’ - 100’ stretch? Perhaps they’ll take off more yet. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

Like the look of the steam yacht behind it.  Proper boat.

Maybe that is where the new arse is coming from?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, monosailor said:

9B7F6E04-7F59-4611-A0D2-8E282C5CC055.jpeg

Thinking that offcut would make a sensational bar?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just came across this video on Wild Joe and her DSS foils. I find it interesting that so many boats have tried DSS and not too many have stayed with the concept. Posted it here because she is a narrow Reichel Pugh design just like BJ. Perhaps DSS foil design will evolve to make it another option in the future.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What confuses me is you'd think that you wouldnt bother doing these mods, especially to BJ, unless you knew you were going to be faster then Oats. 

Yet Rags 100, CQS and Zana all did this, spent the money on huge rebuilds and are still slower. 

I hope BJ doesnt follow this trend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No comparison with one offs. Black Jack today is WOXI Mk 1+. They are simply going to WOXI Mk 3+ which is known territory.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sugarscoop said:

What confuses me is you'd think that you wouldnt bother doing these mods, especially to BJ, unless you knew you were going to be faster then Oats. 

Yet Rags 100, CQS and Zana all did this, spent the money on  huge rebuilds and are still slower. 

I hope BJ doesnt follow this trend.

It’s pretty clear WOXI is now faster. 

& so is Rags. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

No comparison with one offs. Black Jack today is WOXI Mk 1+. They are simply going to WOXI Mk 3+ which is known territory.

Whats the point of being equal? you want to be faster.....

Surely they have something up their sleeve...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Sugarscoop said:

What confuses me is you'd think that you wouldnt bother doing these mods, especially to BJ, unless you knew you were going to be faster then Oats. 

Yet Rags 100, CQS and Zana all did this, spent the money on huge rebuilds and are still slower. 

I hope BJ doesnt follow this trend.

 

4 hours ago, SCANAS said:

It’s pretty clear WOXI is now faster. 

& so is Rags. 

The interesting question is, Why not put a new hull under the deck like they did to “Rags” ?

 

You  could in theory also cut out the canting keel structure and then re bond it into a new hull as well. This way you could get the latest hull design and shape and you aren’t limited to the old hull shape. 

 

Lets face it, these boys are spending big dollars anyway and it may save dollars down the track as well

 

pulpit

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, pulpit said:

 

The interesting question is, Why not put a new hull under the deck like they did to “Rags” ?

 

You  could in theory also cut out the canting keel structure and then re bond it into a new hull as well. This way you could get the latest hull design and shape and you aren’t limited to the old hull shape. 

 

Lets face it, these boys are spending big dollars anyway and it may save dollars down the track as well

 

pulpit

How long would that take?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ichi ban seems to be as quick as the 60 footers of the RP era. 

100ft canting version of Ichi ban, Would it be faster and better suited to the Hobart then current oats. 

Debatable

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, pulpit said:

 

The interesting question is, Why not put a new hull under the deck like they did to “Rags” ?

 

You  could in theory also cut out the canting keel structure and then re bond it into a new hull as well. This way you could get the latest hull design and shape and you aren’t limited to the old hull shape. 

 

Lets face it, these boys are spending big dollars anyway and it may save dollars down the track as well

 

pulpit

 

24 minutes ago, Rushman said:

How long would that take?

 

Rushman, 

 

If you stop and think about it and the time to build a new front section and then fit it, re fair it and paint the the boat not that much longer. I’ve built a 47 footer in 16 weeks from start to finish. The hull is the cheapest part of the boat, it’s the deck, bulkheads, deck equipment, mast and sails were the cost is. 

 

At the end of the day the chance to put a new hull shape under the the deck might be a better option than modifying the old hull don’t you think ?

 

pulpit 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, pulpit said:

 

 

Rushman, 

 

If you stop and think about it and the time to build a new front section and then fit it, re fair it and paint the the boat not that much longer. I’ve built a 47 footer in 16 weeks from start to finish. The hull is the cheapest part of the boat, it’s the deck, bulkheads, deck equipment, mast and sails were the cost is. 

 

At the end of the day the chance to put a new hull shape under the the deck might be a better option than modifying the old hull don’t you think ?

 

pulpit 

I had no idea how long it would take. Thanks for the reply

They have about 5 months to do the mods so a new hull might have been an option.  No doubt all options were on the table and discussed at length by owner/designer/builder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, pulpit said:

 

The interesting question is, Why not put a new hull under the deck like they did to “Rags” ?

 

You  could in theory also cut out the canting keel structure and then re bond it into a new hull as well. This way you could get the latest hull design and shape and you aren’t limited to the old hull shape. 

 

Lets face it, these boys are spending big dollars anyway and it may save dollars down the track as well

 

pulpit

WOXI is a proven performer. Makes sense to follow them as a) you only need to beat them b) they have the most wins. 

The part they want to keep includes more than canting keel structure. Chain plates, engine & drive, Nav & electronics. 

Oh & pulling off a new hull might add some cost & lead time. The race is 7mths away & Father Time is marching on. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, pulpit said:

 

The interesting question is, Why not put a new hull under the deck like they did to “Rags” ?

 

You  could in theory also cut out the canting keel structure and then re bond it into a new hull as well. This way you could get the latest hull design and shape and you aren’t limited to the old hull shape. 

 

Lets face it, these boys are spending big dollars anyway and it may save dollars down the track as well

 

pulpit

 

8 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

WOXI is a proven performer. Makes sense to follow them as a) you only need to beat them b) they have the most wins. 

The part they want to keep includes more than canting keel structure. Chain plates, engine & drive, Nav & electronics. 

Oh & pulling off a new hull might add some cost & lead time. The race is 7mths away & Father Time is marching on. 

 

SCANAS, 

 

Are you already in the Christmas spirit mate ?

 

Merry Christmas and Happy New year, I never knew you planned so far ahead. You have great time management !!!!!

 

Its 32 weeks until the start, so let’s take off 5 weeks for setting the boat up and it’s still leaves 27 weeks to build the hull and modify the deck. It’s more than do able  don’t you think ? 

 

As for lead time ? Who is ever building the new bow section would of been being talked to long before now and more than likely already building the new section now. So a new hull could of been started already as well. 

 

At the end end of the day boat’s like this are just “Penis Exstenions” for the big boys. So they will do what they have too so they feel better about them selfs and beat their mates. 

 

Pulpit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bow might be ready to go on. Didn’t cookson build a new bow for morning glory fly it over to the US & fit it. 

Why build a new hull & risk being slower than WOXI. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, pulpit said:

At the end end of the day boat’s like this are just “Penis Exstenions” for the big boys. So they will do what they have too so they feel better about them selfs and beat their mates. 

Exactly... it is nearly a competition in its self of recycling to get max return from minimal expenditure and if not minimal pretend to everyone it is.

It is like a choice between either getting a new younger wife and all the expense and unknowns that come with that, OR just throwing a new set of tits on the old one knowing it will work better, look good and won't nag you to death.

Syd tried to go one better and build a new wife below the waist on the cheap with Whitty as PM but keeping the old tits. Bad move, tits are where the power is, not the pussy. Goes against conventional manly thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been wondering about the impact of certain boat modifications and how they affect a boat. As they are in a way similar or at leat related to the type of mods BJ is undergoing I thought I'd just ask here.

As I understand BJ & WOIX mods, that by chopping off the transom and extending to bow they are effectively moving the keel and mast further back. For these boats it makes it easier to lift the bow out of the water and they run and reach faster. The same could be achieved by moving the mast and keel back, but as they are canters, the nose and arse job is easier.

Back in the real world, I've see some smaller racers which have had their transoms extended. This will have the positive effect of lengthening the water line and will make some boats faster, but for lighter boats which may be capable of exceeding their LWL theoretical max, the extended transom and thus the forward movement of the keel and mast may make the boat more nose heavy and thus may slow the boat down in running & reaching?

I've seen that some Mumm 36's have been modified to move both the keel and mast more aft, which I assume is to make them faster off the wind?

Am I making the correct assumption about the general effect of these mods?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, hoppy said:

........As I understand BJ & WOIX mods, that by chopping off the transom and extending to bow they are effectively moving the keel and mast further back. For these boats it makes it easier to lift the bow out of the water and they run and reach faster. The same could be achieved by moving the mast and keel back, but as they are canters, the nose and arse job is easier.......

Also means less pitching upwind because the weight, especially the mast, is further back in the boat.

Also means bigger foresails hanging off the same height mast, so more sail area overall, and more flexibility with regard to staysail combinations.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The entry on WOXI’s bow is also much finer. That alone would make a great deal of difference over 640nm. 

 LWL is going to reduce pitching & you certainly wouldn’t add LOA that’s going to trim you bow down, assume that why most extensions taper up. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Refresher from an old WOXI thread:

Look where the rail meat is stacked... back out on Bmax where it belongs.... That in itself is less pitching.

B7828C56-A1E8-4006-B05E-7F4E2F430132.gif

259CBE3C-2986-4AE9-B6A6-6ED7E0B9E8CD.jpeg

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Sidecar said:

Also means less pitching upwind because the weight, especially the mast, is further back in the boat.

Also means bigger foresails hanging off the same height mast, so more sail area overall, and more flexibility with regard to staysail combinations.

Spinnakers & headsails in front of the mast rate as "cheap" power  so this is probably the big driver of rig aft designs we are seeing now.

Just the opposite of the old huge masthead overlapping heads with tiny mains that suited the rule way back when. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Exactly... it is nearly a competition in its self of recycling to get max return from minimal expenditure and if not minimal pretend to everyone it is.

It is like a choice between either getting a new younger wife and all the expense and unknowns that come with that, OR just throwing a new set of tits on the old one knowing it will work better, look good and won't nag you to death.

Syd tried to go one better and build a new wife below the waist on the cheap with Whitty as PM but keeping the old tits. Bad move, tits are where the power is, not the pussy. Goes against conventional manly thinking.

Now that is fucking funny...... great analogy JS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

looks like the mast and keel are raked back aswell. Pushing all the weight back to the arse. 

It was obvious that the old oats was more easily driven and got up to speed quicker but the new oats can definately maintain speed better over the whole course.

Surely if BJ does the same mod, it will benifit them more as the boat is slightly wider so will have more buoyancy in the arse to stop it sinking into the water and creating drag with all that weight back. 

Might be all round a better boat then Oats

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BJ getting a new mast as well? Is it still on the original?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TUBBY said:

Spinnakers & headsails in front of the mast rate as "cheap" power  so this is probably the big driver of rig aft designs we are seeing now.

Just the opposite of the old huge masthead overlapping heads with tiny mains that suited the rule way back when. 

The old rules measured the foretriangle only and overlap was more or less free. Now that most rules measure actual sail area, designers have put it out in front,  where it belongs.

But it is principally about stuffing as much sail area as you can on a given mast height and hull platform (plus extensions), whilst keeping the CE down as low as possible. And modern furlers have made foresail up and down sizing a lot easier.

Check out this overlap:

 

A205D8C8-47E1-45A4-A780-5AE89536DE24.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sugarscoop said:

........Surely if BJ does the same mod, it will benifit them more as the boat is slightly wider so will have more buoyancy in the arse to stop it sinking into the water and creating drag with all that weight back.......

Any boat that can do more than ~ 8-9 knots often enough will have a “clean” wake and stern immersion/drag isn’t relevant. Look at any of the big French speedsters mono or multi, they all drag their arses. Statically.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they were serious about winning, I could think of two obvious areas that none of the 100 foot gang have gone into.

 

1. Osmium Keel - this is obvious, They could keep the same dimension bulb and half the keel length, or maybe even remove the bulb and just keep the same size fine length to reduce drag and wet surface for high speeds

 

2. Fit foils - the next step before they get smoked by some of the new boats half their length.  Semi foiling like Charal... that's what they are going to need to protect the records in the right conditions  !   Just a matter of time. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites