terrafirma

Black Jack, Nose Job Arse Lift

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1 hour ago, Sidecar said:

 

My guess is that they roller furl it up until the clew clears the mast, then let the furler go and sheet it in on new side. 

This is exactly what they do. 

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7 hours ago, TUBBY said:

So much easier when the winches are powered!

No place for fat old grinders like me on these things.

 

7 hours ago, Sidecar said:

 

My guess is that they roller furl it up until the clew clears the mast, then let the furler go and sheet it in on new side. 

 

5 hours ago, mad said:

And you be very happy about that after short tacking up the shore line for an hour or 3. :)

 

5 hours ago, mad said:

This is exactly what they do. 

Up until last year Comanche was manual plus J1 was hanked so you earned your money.

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7 hours ago, Sidecar said:

 

My guess is that they roller furl it up until the clew clears the mast, then let the furler go and sheet it in on new side. 

not likely ;)

I don't believe that the sail is on the forestay. The forestay is further back so they must roll the sail in enough to clear the forestay to tack 

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2 minutes ago, hoppy said:

not likely ;)

I don't believe that the sail is on the forestay. The forestay is further back so they must roll the sail in enough to clear the forestay to tack 

Apologies. You are correct. I was really referring to the technique of partially rolling up the sail to facilitate tacking

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6 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

 

 

Up until last year Comanche was manual plus J1 was hanked so you earned your money.

No manual line furling gear on the boat? That must cause some damage to standing rigging, spreader tips and sail tacking that!! Assuming we’re talking about the same picture? 

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On 5/16/2019 at 3:13 PM, jack_sparrow said:

Exactly... it is nearly a competition in its self of recycling to get max return from minimal expenditure and if not minimal pretend to everyone it is.

It is like a choice between either getting a new younger wife and all the expense and unknowns that come with that, OR just throwing a new set of tits on the old one knowing it will work better, look good and won't nag you to death.

Syd tried to go one better and build a new wife below the waist on the cheap with Whitty as PM but keeping the old tits. Bad move, tits are where the power is, not the pussy. Goes against conventional manly thinking.

Boah! This is the first time somebody explained sailboat design in a way that I understand. Thanks mate! 

 

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3 hours ago, mad said:

No manual line furling gear on the boat? That must cause some damage to standing rigging, spreader tips and sail tacking that!! Assuming we’re talking about the same picture? 

Mad only the J1 was fixed/hanked. They converted it to furling when power conversion was done.

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16 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Mad only the J1 was fixed/hanked. They converted it to furling when power conversion was done.

Thanks, I thought I saw them furling headsails on the transatlantic when it was all manual still. 

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16 hours ago, mad said:

And you be very happy about that after short tacking up the shore line for an hour or 3. :)

Yeah used to love 2 mile windward legs on an 80 foot mastheader.

So did the guys packing kites!

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2 hours ago, TUBBY said:

Yeah used to love 2 mile windward legs on an 80 foot mastheader.

So did the guys packing kites!

Poor fuckers rarely saw the race course    :P

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And life was so pleasant down in an alloy can at 40 degrees with water falling through the deck everywhere.  Those guys really had to love their sailing!

Spent a few days down there with them,  good sewer rats are a class apart.

Worst place was below on a wooden 12 with an alloy deck racing in 40 degrees plus off Fremantle.  Heat came in through the deck but couldn''t get out to the water through the wooden hull.  Hell would be cooler & drier.

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5 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

And life was so pleasant down in an alloy can at 40 degrees with water falling through the deck everywhere.  Those guys really had to love their sailing!

Spent a few days down there with them,  good sewer rats are a class apart.

Worst place was below on a wooden 12 with an alloy deck racing in 40 degrees plus off Fremantle.  Heat came in through the deck but couldn''t get out to the water through the wooden hull.  Hell would be cooler & drier.

It was an apprenticeship that most of us had to serve at some stage, nothing like the ‘boil in the bag’ feeling desperately trying to re-pack it because the brains trust have changed their minds 3 minutes after the peel! :lol:

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Always wondered about crew when the V70s we're doing in Port half mile W/L races. Not exactly any time to clean up for next set.

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15 hours ago, mad said:

Thanks, I thought I saw them furling headsails on the transatlantic when it was all manual still. 

They did have furling headsails off the sprit, and off other hard points on the foredeck (staysail, J4, whatever else) when it was manual. They had an enormous jib off a furler on the sprit, but I don't think it was labeled J1. Their current inventory (Mostly, if not all Doyle) is all on furlers.

This picture was from the sea trials off Newport in 2014.

 

 

Comanche.jpg

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2 hours ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said:

They did have furling headsails off the sprit, and off other hard points on the foredeck (staysail, J4, whatever else) when it was manual. They had an enormous jib off a furler on the sprit, but I don't think it was labeled J1. Their current inventory (Mostly, if not all Doyle) is all on furlers.

This picture was from the sea trials off Newport in 2014.

 

 

Comanche.jpg

Thanks. 

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6 hours ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said:

They did have furling headsails off the sprit, and off other hard points on the foredeck (staysail, J4, whatever else) when it was manual. They had an enormous jib off a furler on the sprit, but I don't think it was labeled J1. Their current inventory (Mostly, if not all Doyle) is all on furlers.

This picture was from the sea trials off Newport in 2014.

 

 

Comanche.jpg

Not all Doyle yet but heading that way with every new sail

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On 5/18/2019 at 11:50 PM, mad said:

This is exactly what they do. 

No it ain't, they have to furl it all the way past the forestay, not the mast, then crank it all the way back in.

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3 minutes ago, darth reapius said:

No it ain't, they have to furl it all the way past the forestay, not the mast, then crank it all the way back in.

I was referring to the furling process being used, not how far it has to be furled.

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Some info from Mark Bradford on the mods.

Bradford expanded on the changes, designed to bring the hull up to a 2019 shape in the most economical way: "We feel like we are fast upwind but downwind [Wild] Oats and Comanche are reeling us in so we are modifying the shape of the bow, making it fuller in sectional shape to make the hull more powerful in an attempt to improve downwind speed. The deck and structure stay intact, we are replacing the hull section on the outside of the boat, so the hull skin changes and then the structure is built back out."

https://www.sail-world.com/news/218544/Brisbane-to-Hamilton-Race-fleet-taking-shape

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More vertical topsides resulting in more waterline beam forward which means wider flatter underwater sections.......

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BJ and Wild Oats were narrow boats with fine bows when they were designed at one end of the design spectrum, Oats has changed as we know. Comanche is a fuller boat at the other end of the spectrum. A fuller hull form will generate more power downwind with some sacrifice upwind in the lighter conditions. Bradford and his design team have had the luxury of watching the Oats mods and how the boat has transgressed. 

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2 hours ago, Sugarscoop said:

OK so more harder chines and almost mini transat style

Not necessarily a hard chine....If they are keeping the deck as mentioned above, that limits the fullness they can achieve, so it may not be very obvious out on the water, but presumably enough to make a difference downwind...... Unless they put a chamfer in the topsides so that the section is wider lower down than at deck level.

Everyone is doing it.... And it would be cheaper than sawing off the arse and building a longer bow. All the work is confined to the bow skin and ring frame infill.

026236EB-328C-4013-B92C-558CE6702D9B.jpeg

Edited by Sidecar

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Can’t find any lines for Black Jack, but here are WOXI’s before the big changes, which are pretty similar.

Enjoy guessing what they might do.... somewhere between InfoTrack and Ran as per image above.....

DC879A37-FBF6-4764-B057-DDA6BA27C961.jpeg

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I hear the mods are not going as fast as scheduled and BJ is very unlikely to make the Sydney to Goldcoast race now.

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21 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Can’t find any lines for Black Jack, but here are WOXI’s before the big changes, which are pretty similar.

Enjoy guessing what they might do.... somewhere between InfoTrack and Ran as per image above.....

DC879A37-FBF6-4764-B057-DDA6BA27C961.jpeg

......What if they went wild and did a scow, complete with Wonga bow? The boat is narrow gutted enough to still be a good all rounder?

BB37A671-95E3-4DCB-B305-89A5A96A74EE.jpeg

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27 minutes ago, trt131 said:

I hear the mods are not going as fast as scheduled and BJ is very unlikely to make the Sydney to Goldcoast race now.

Not the end of the world. It's all about the Big Show in December......! 

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4 hours ago, Sidecar said:

Can’t find any lines for Black Jack, but here are WOXI’s before the big changes, which are pretty similar.

Enjoy guessing what they might do.... somewhere between InfoTrack and Ran as per image above.....

DC879A37-FBF6-4764-B057-DDA6BA27C961.jpeg

If keeping the same sheer shape there's not much width to be gained, the topsides are already nearly vertical. Please god don't let them turn it into a cqs abortion. 

I think the boat just smelt some money, they do that you know. 

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16 hours ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

If keeping the same sheer shape there's not much width to be gained, the topsides are already nearly vertical. Please god don't let them turn it into a cqs abortion. 

I think the boat just smelt some money, they do that you know. 

The boat is smelling speed.!  P.S. If Mark Bradford was running CQS 2 things would have happened..! 

1. It wouldn't have happened

2. It wouldn't have happened

 

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11 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

The boat is smelling speed.!  P.S. If Mark Bradford was running CQS 2 things would have happened..! 

1. It wouldn't have happened

2. It wouldn't have happened

 

Where is CQS? 

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Where is CQS? 

last AIS position was 28/10/2017 in Palma

 

51 minutes ago, Sugarscoop said:

In the bin

maybe with My Song...

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On 6/18/2019 at 1:58 PM, Sidecar said:

Can’t find any lines for Black Jack, but here are WOXI’s before the big changes, which are pretty similar.

Enjoy guessing what they might do.... somewhere between InfoTrack and Ran as per image above.....

DC879A37-FBF6-4764-B057-DDA6BA27C961.jpeg

That looks unbelievably skinny.

Amazing how things have changed.

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On 5/17/2019 at 2:01 PM, dachopper said:

If they were serious about winning, I could think of two obvious areas that none of the 100 foot gang have gone into.

 

1. Osmium Keel - this is obvious, They could keep the same dimension bulb and half the keel length, or maybe even remove the bulb and just keep the same size fine length to reduce drag and wet surface for high speeds

 

well, if you knew anything about anything, you'd realise why they haven't.

IRC Rule 19.4: In the construction of hull appendages, no material with specific gravity greater than 11.3 is permitted.

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got to love 178% jibs...

 

10690275_10204719716342429_4936278140506353143_n.thumb.jpg.258e1fb198aeacaec8e3709c9618766f.jpg10668991_10204733259761006_7043213933991907818_o.thumb.jpg.fee41dd34f8783e2d6ad35442fe866b2.jpg

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On 5/19/2019 at 7:41 AM, hoppy said:

not likely ;)

I don't believe that the sail is on the forestay. The forestay is further back so they must roll the sail in enough to clear the forestay to tack 

Do you post on football forums as well? You seem enjoy commenting on games you don’t actually play.

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On 6/17/2019 at 1:25 AM, Sidecar said:

An extreme example:

 

7A403AB6-73D6-4D2F-9F18-6B264D8B0C7F.jpeg

overall, that looks fast as fk. as an offshore race boat designer, draw old school bows as your peril. 

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If they are keeping the same deck up forward, and have already sawn off the arse, it looks as though we will be seeing a reverse bow with chamfer....

64FF8E8E-3E12-4040-A657-C57BE93972A6.jpeg

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3 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Do you post on football forums as well? You seem enjoy commenting on games you don’t actually play.

I probably have just as much experience sailing on WOIX as you. 

I can us my power of observation by analysing photographs to summarise that the poster I was responding to was incorrect.

Which football? Rugby? State of origin, Zzzzzzzzzzzzz who cares...

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2 hours ago, Sidecar said:

If they are keeping the same deck up forward, and have already sawn off the arse, it looks as though we will be seeing a reverse bow with chamfer....

64FF8E8E-3E12-4040-A657-C57BE93972A6.jpeg

Agreed! looks like theyre heading for a RAN style bow section. Will look radical and cool.

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I love a good dock rumor... 

Oats X1 going under the knife to improve further..? Mini Oats will sail till X1 if finished..?   

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Will Scallywag make it back? Or are staying in north hemisphere and slaying 50 footers at the line........at a mainsail repair each time? :ph34r:

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29 minutes ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

I love a good dock rumor... 

Oats X1 going under the knife to improve further..?

One of them will eventually end up being a scow? Long and narrow works for scows.... Ask Buddy Melges.D451585F-5CCC-4084-A125-0465234BBFF2.jpeg.886b1828dba9214a771f1fdbd3165f27.jpeg

Seen Reichel Pugh’s recent suggestion for the Transpac?

77DCEDC8-29F4-401A-935F-9E8CE86A4FD0.jpeg

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29 minutes ago, mad said:

Will Scallywag make it back? Or are staying in north hemisphere and slaying 50 footers at the line........at a mainsail repair each time? :ph34r:

posted on Scallys FB page, 19th June

Quote

With just six months to go to the 75th Hobart race, let's look at some extreme action highlights from years gone.
The Scallywags will be on the line and fighting the battle of Maxi's for line honours. 
Follow our journey for updates.

No need to do a CQS and go into hiding

 

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aparently Skallywag has got legs in VMG running conditions. Will be interesting to see if they can actually sail it to its potential and without breaking things. They definately still need to tighten the screws on their campaign. Hire more pro's......

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1 hour ago, Sidecar said:

SNIP......

Seen Reichel Pugh’s recent suggestion for the Transpac?

77DCEDC8-29F4-401A-935F-9E8CE86A4FD0.jpeg

That is just not right!  Talk about ugly!

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Just now, Tunnel Rat said:

That is just not right!  Talk about ugly!

Its pretty much the underwater shape of Comanche anyway when the bow is out at speed.

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Just now, Sugarscoop said:

Its pretty much the underwater shape of Comanche anyway when the bow is out at speed.

I'm not saying it will be slow, but Damn it's ugly!

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41 minutes ago, Sugarscoop said:

aparently Skallywag has got legs in VMG running conditions. Will be interesting to see if they can actually sail it to its potential and without breaking things. They definately still need to tighten the screws on their campaign. Hire more pro's......

Nothing will change on this boat. Sad really as the boat has potential. Their last accident was an example of why they keep breaking things. If you were to campaign this boat under the Oats crew etc they would beat Witty and his team on Wild Oats. Mark Richards was worried about Scallywag until he saw them sailing. Real shame. Let's hope they turn it around in the Transatlantic? 

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3 hours ago, Tunnel Rat said:

That is just not right!  Talk about ugly!

Agreed. Ugly but fast, just like the Mini 6.5 bathtubs..... 

Check out the Melges A class scows... now they are beautiful and fast, with an L/B ratio of ~ 5:1:

https://melges.com/melges-a-scow/

There have also been French designers playing around with 100ft scows since 2012:

 

AFA1E331-8854-41AD-8A6F-E032B7301A50.jpeg

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50 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Agreed. Ugly but fast, just like the Mini 6.5 bathtubs..... 

Check out the Melges A class scows... now they are beautiful and fast, with an L/B ratio of ~ 5:1:

https://melges.com/melges-a-scow/

There have also been French designers playing around with 100ft scows since 2012:

 

AFA1E331-8854-41AD-8A6F-E032B7301A50.jpeg

They're loosing a bit of water line length there with that bow. Definatly not an all rounder. Even less so then Comanche

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1 minute ago, Sidecar said:

FWIW, I drew out the options I mentioned upthread for BJ, using the WOXI lines info above.....

The shaded area is the existing deck area, with about a metre of stern sawn off, the blue lines indicates the lower sheer/ chine on the profiles and plan.

Waterplane has not been adjusted, so the bows will be higher than indicated due to the big increases in volume forward.......

Now that  the rumour is that WOXI could be under the knife again, things could get interesting..... Do either have the balls to convert to a scow? They are both a good sectional shape and have a good L/B ratio (~6:1) for a scow. An A class scow is ~4.5:1.

4C9A98CD-95D2-47F5-9586-657FE3B4CD15.jpeg

 

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On 6/20/2019 at 6:46 PM, Sidecar said:

One of them will eventually end up being a scow? Long and narrow works for scows.... Ask Buddy Melges.D451585F-5CCC-4084-A125-0465234BBFF2.jpeg.886b1828dba9214a771f1fdbd3165f27.jpeg

Seen Reichel Pugh’s recent suggestion for the Transpac?

77DCEDC8-29F4-401A-935F-9E8CE86A4FD0.jpeg

Not so recent.  That render is at least 7 years old.  Regardless, wouldn't a scow be a bit hellish upwind in Bass Straight in a blow?

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40 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

Not so recent.  That render is at least 7 years old.  Regardless, wouldn't a scow be a bit hellish upwind in Bass Straight in a blow?

Not surprised,  RP’s rendered design looks dated..... You could say that anything, particularly at speed, is hellish upwind in Bass Strait, the waves have no back in them, but I wouldn’t expect them to be any more difficult than Commanche.

Southerly Busters rarely last more than a couple of days, and are usually preceded by a day or so of downhill running. The speed gains downhill are much greater than any loss upwind, where you are basically nursing the boat through it all. 100 footers do the race in two days, so they are well down the track before any change.

The thing that WOXI and BJ also have to their advantage, is their abnormal narrowness, which ameliorates some of any perceived scow disadvantage.

And canting keels help to maintain the most efficient scow heel angle in lighter conditions.....

F673820B-C0D1-4884-920F-2881DAE4DFCB.jpeg

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A Scows on flat water in a lake in Wisconsin is quite a bit different than Bass Straight.  Anyone know how the Mini scows go upwind in the open ocean?  

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30 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

Anyone know how the Mini scows go upwind in the open ocean?  

I thought they didn't. i.e. The mini-transat scows only go one direction :lol::lol:

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On 7/12/2019 at 9:31 AM, Sidecar said:

 

Southerly Busters rarely last more than a couple of days, and are usually preceded by a day or so of downhill running. The speed gains downhill are much greater than any loss upwind, where you are basically nursing the boat through it all. 100 footers do the race in two days, so they are well down the track before any change.

I thought I'd read some dumb things around here.. but there's always a new surprise.

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On 6/20/2019 at 9:32 AM, hoppy said:

I can us my power of observation 

Somethings get lost in translation between your observation super-power and your keyboard. 

Wipe the dribble off your chin.

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On 7/12/2019 at 7:17 PM, Tito said:

I thought they didn't. i.e. The mini-transat scows only go one direction :lol::lol:

The rest of the mini circuit is more distributed up/down, the scows don't dominate as much upwind but they're no slouches. Most of the top end of the fleet is scows or semi scows.

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On 8/16/2019 at 1:28 PM, Flippin Out said:

Anyone heard anymore updates ? Been 3 months since that photo of the back falling off was posted. 

+1 

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On 9/3/2019 at 12:08 PM, Sugarscoop said:

Any pics? any news? Are they still waiting on their foil arms?

 

Hundreds, plenty, Persico working double time to get them finished after ETNZ gave blessing for them to be used on a non AC boat.

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8 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

Persico working double time to get them finished after ETNZ gave blessing for them to be used on a non AC boat.

Bullshit. Really?

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2 hours ago, jackolantern said:

Bullshit. Really?

I’m just guessing here, but I think he was making a sarcastic reply to a sarcastic post. 

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2 hours ago, Sugarscoop said:

BlackJack yachting FB page says Stand By 1 hr ago.......

you forgot the teaser photo

 

69595793_2662697863780485_65396567054273

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McConaghy's shed. Is WOXI in front of or behind BJ? Who gets out first?. It is a state secret of course that both don't know what work the other has done :-) 

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3 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

Looks like minimal "scowbow" to me but definitely not a fine entry like WOXI...

 

 

Not as radical as we thought. Blunt nose and curved in gunwhales. Oats did the oposite to this a few years back sharpening up the bow. Funny how things change.

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Spray! They must know something I don't.

(EDIT - Clearly there is plenty they'd know that is beyond me, but this is unexpected.) 

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