terrafirma

Black Jack, Nose Job Arse Lift

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1 hour ago, Sidecar said:

Follow the money, it Isn’t necessarily about tax avoidance, there could be VAT and other issues if the owner and crew happen to be based on the other side of the world. A random selection :

No issues at all. As an Australian registered yacht, it can be kept in the EU for 18 months at a time. They only need to check-in/check-out of a non EU country to reset the 18mth clock. If the crew are still Aussie, they will be limited to 3 months at a time within the Schengen region. 

Perhaps by the time BJ might be in Europe, the UK will finally have completed the Brexit, so BJ can have it's 18mth "clock" reset annually when it does Fastnet. 

I'll stick to my guess that Harburg is a member of the Monaco club and club infighting has made him decide, fuck you RQYS...

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3 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

That will work wonderfully considering Fastnet is a bi-annual race.

Ok, I forgot. A cruise to Turkey or Morocco. Cruising couples manage to deal with the 18 month rule.

They could also take it to the Caribbean.

Pretty easy when you have the money to pay a crew to deliver the boat.  

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A cruise to Turkey Montenegro or Morocco Tunisia

If the crew are still Aussie and properly signed onto the boat''s papers, they will not be limited to 3 months at a time within the Schengen region area.

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On 9/9/2019 at 9:22 AM, PIL66 - XL2 said:

I understand they are going to make Sydney home till Hobart...

 

Hobart 2019 entry list shows Club as RQ 

Maybe she's sold with a post Hobart handover before taking up residence in Monaco?

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15 minutes ago, Flatbag said:

Hobart 2019 entry list shows Club as RQ 

Maybe she's sold with a post Hobart handover before taking up residence in Monaco?

Nup

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36 minutes ago, charisma94 said:

Anyone know what mods were actually done?

A bit of the back and a bit on the front.;)

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4 hours ago, charisma94 said:

Anyone know what mods were actually done?

Peter Harburg's Queensland supermaxi Black Jack is undergoing major pre-season surgery and the optimal deadline for the 100-footer's relaunch is prior to the Cruising Yacht Club of Australia's Noakes Sydney Gold Coast Yacht Race at the end of July. Off the back of that longstanding event is the first-ever Lendlease Brisbane to Hamilton Island Yacht Race, organised by Royal Queensland Yacht Squadron with the cooperation of Hamilton Island.

Speaking on the likelihood of meeting the two start dates of July 27 and August 2 respectively, Black Jack's longtime helmsman Mark Bradford said: "We are pretty organised but in two weeks we'll have a much better idea." If the team overseeing Black Jack's modification is confident of meeting the deadline the boat will be entered in both bluewater races.

Bradford expanded on the changes, designed to bring the hull up to a 2019 shape in the most economical way: "We feel like we are fast upwind but downwind [Wild] Oats and Comanche are reeling us in so we are modifying the shape of the bow, making it fuller in sectional shape to make the hull more powerful in an attempt to improve downwind speed. The deck and structure stay intact, we are replacing the hull section on the outside of the boat, so the hull skin changes and then the structure is built back out."

Bradford is looking forward to lining up against Wild Oats and trialing the modification as both supermaxi teams countdown to this year's epic 75th anniversary Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: "Anytime you get to sail against Oats is a great opportunity."

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WOXI OLD BOW

VS New Bow 0:30-0:40 

Interesting choice for BJ shall see I guess. 

 

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36 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

WOXI OLD BOW

VS New Bow 0:30-0:40 

Interesting choice for BJ shall see I guess. 

 

wow, I never really looked at footage side by side like that. marked difference. 

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If as Bradford says, the deck and structure hasn’t changed, then presumably the mast is still in its original place. So the mast is effectively around  a metre further aft in a fuller bowed boat.

Which also means that the foretriangle base is longer by around a metre, plus maybe what looks to be a longer bowsprit, so more overall foresail area?

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On 9/10/2019 at 9:13 PM, terrafirma said:

"We feel like we are fast upwind but downwind [Wild] Oats and Comanche are reeling us in so we are modifying the shape of the bow, making it fuller in sectional shape to make the hull more powerful in an attempt to improve downwind speed.

Don't recall much "reeling in" occurring, more like "getting away" . She has been disappointing in all but the lighter stuff and as predicted.

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7 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Don't recall much "reeling in" occurring, more like "getting away" . She has been disappointing in all but the lighter stuff and as predicted.

i was thinking the same thing.. more like stretching.

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On 9/11/2019 at 8:16 AM, frozenhawaiian said:

wow, I never really looked at footage side by side like that. marked difference. 

Bottom pic is that of Indian - note bow number! at 47' , half the size of BJ and WO.

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11 minutes ago, Phil said:

Bottom pic is that of Indian - note bow number! at 47' , half the size of BJ and WO.

They are videos. That’s why it says watch for WOXI 0:30 - 0:40 

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New video of black jack coming out of shop

 

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On 9/12/2019 at 12:38 AM, Sidecar said:

If as Bradford says, the deck and structure hasn’t changed, then presumably the mast is still in its original place. So the mast is effectively around  a metre further aft in a fuller bowed boat.

Which also means that the foretriangle base is longer by around a metre, plus maybe what looks to be a longer bowsprit, so more overall foresail area?

Cheers that makes sense and a smart way of doing it. Can't wait to see them sailing side by side. Oats has done plenty of sail development but I guess Bradford would be around that. Retaining the Tungsten bulb obviously and some new sails to take advantage of the mods will deliver some gains the $$$ question will be by how much in what conditions?

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I can see how to make this boat go faster.

If you stop the above vid at 0:38  plan view,  it's easy to see - don't bolt on the keel,   just add 2 floats & 2 beams .   it will win then.    :D

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On 9/14/2019 at 8:31 AM, peterbike said:

I can see how to make this boat go faster.

If you stop the above vid at 0:38  plan view,  it's easy to see - don't bolt on the keel,   just add 2 floats & 2 beams .   it will win then.    :D

why not just post this under your normal allias? :D

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"my normal alias ?"

am I missing something ?

Peter Brown     5 empress crt sunshine melbourne 3020    born 30/9/1959

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52 minutes ago, peterbike said:

"my normal alias ?"

am I missing something ?

SNIP

God!  What are you thinking posting information like that here....... the next thing you know you will have Hoppy popping in for a chat and drinking all the beer in the house!

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Hoppy wouldn't go to Sunshine.

I did a case a long time ago about the Sunshine rubbish tip. We won $30 Million from the Council's insurer.

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6 hours ago, DtM said:

Hoppy wouldn't go to Sunshine.

I did a case a long time ago about the Sunshine rubbish tip. We won $30 Million from the Council's insurer.

It's not just me, most of Melbourne wouldn't go to Sunshine.

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6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Squark speaks

 

Certainly looks the business. Nice job.

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9 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Squark speaks

 

A-Grade vegan nothingburger I'm afraid. 

The before and after ORCi Certs aren't hugely different though the LCF has moved aft a couple of feet and the maximum beam station has moved aft a long way.  The rating doesn't have appeared to have changed much despite a boost in sail area downwind.

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1 hour ago, DickDastardly said:

A-Grade vegan nothingburger I'm afraid. 

The before and after ORCi Certs aren't hugely different though the LCF has moved aft a couple of feet and the maximum beam station has moved aft a long way.  The rating doesn't have appeared to have changed much despite a boost in sail area downwind.

I picked up on Mark purposely saying that they went with RP however their mods are later design concepts than Oats and therefore should be better? They will go better downwind because of more sail area and fuller bow should stop them from submarining. Also he says a touch better upwind. Righting moment king is Comanche and we have always known that but it hasn't helped their cause in the last 2 Hobarts, like always weather conditions will decide who wins this year. Having said that BJ now play in a wider field or the same field as Oats so this will be interesting. Would be good to see BJ or Comanche win it this year but that's just my preference. The video footage certainly appears to show the boat going way better downwind. 

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2 minutes ago, SloopJohnB said:

The 2 boats

Black Jack.JPG

They have changed the signage slightly so hard to judge exactly but logo now goes past mast and you can see the boom finishing further back and their J area has increased. Interestingly in this photo the bow is skimming across the water vs slightly under for 2018. They have now joined Oats to a point and have the tungsten bulb vs lead for Oats so logically they should be more competitive vs Oats. Time will tell,

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Interesting to see the height that the forward daggerboard creates when retracted downwind, and the subsequent headaches that will create when trying to gybe when double and triple headed - all sails will have to be rolled up (fully or partially) to avoid expensive clusterfucks. And this wont help boat balance when doing so.

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6 minutes ago, Boink said:

Interesting to see the height that the forward daggerboard creates when retracted downwind, and the subsequent headaches that will create when trying to gybe when double and triple headed - all sails will have to be rolled up (fully or partially) to avoid expensive clusterfucks. And this wont help boat balance when doing so.

I think they roll them up in any case, no other way to get them around I suspect

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44 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

Before and After

Jib is the same area but J has grown a little, 180mm.  Big difference is downwind sail area.

113610.pdf

120769.pdf

Interesting. Draft is shortened (by fuck all) but displacement has increased. New bulb maybe? There can't have been that much more carbon/resin weight from the plastic surgery, surely?

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Interesting. Draft is shortened (by fuck all) but displacement has increased. New bulb maybe? There can't have been that much more carbon/resin weight from the plastic surgery, surely?

freeboards would have been remeasured and there's more wetted surface so a different, wider and shallower immersed volume.  I believe there was no change to keel or bulb

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2 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

freeboards would have been remeasured and there's more wetted surface so a different, wider and shallower immersed volume.  I believe there was no change to keel or bulb

Yes, and you could prob get it measured again next week, by a different measurer and have slightly different results

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58 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

Yes, and you could prob get it measured again next week, by a different measurer and have slightly different results

But an IRC endorsed certificate will see you right. Doesn’t the Blue Book rule 14.6 say “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Hobart podium except through me.” ?

 

Or that may be the bible... I forget?

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27 minutes ago, Jason AUS said:

But an IRC endorsed certificate will see you right. Doesn’t the Blue Book rule 14.6 say “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Hobart podium except through me.” ?

 

Or that may be the bible... I forget?

haha i thought the blue book was the bible - also known as the great preventer

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Round 1 to Black Jack.?  Cabbage Tree race warm up dueling ? Anyone know how they went against each other?

 

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Not sure you will learn anything from that (different sails in the same bit of ocean)  but you will from Cabbage Tree itself.

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3 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Round 1 to Black Jack.?  Cabbage Tree race warm up dueling ? Anyone know how they went against each other?

That not racing just warming up boats and boys. Cabbage Tree start tomorrow. Westerly forecast so if TWS up and TWD favourable the race to turning mark will probably be won by WOXI's RM. Might be a race of two races. 

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45 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

That not racing just warming up boats and boys. Cabbage Tree start tomorrow. Westerly forecast so if TWS up and TWD favourable the race to turning mark will probably be won by WOXI's RM. Might be a race of two races. 

and the beat back will also be won by WOXI's RM...

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On 11/7/2019 at 3:54 PM, DickDastardly said:

and the beat back will also be won by WOXI's RM...

Nah, WOXI out of the CTI race with structural damage

To finish first, first you have to finish, RM or no RM.

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2 hours ago, DtM said:

Offer them $60,000

Yep, snap it up TDK, and with the balance of your $80k pool you can insure it. For about 4 days.

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What's the go with BJ having reaching struts?

I thought the rule only allowed one pole at a time, with the bowsprit counting as one pole and a reaching strut the 2nd????

556935933_ScreenShot2019-11-09at14_46_48.thumb.png.0bf404fd4a9d44d4d96d618bf51e6906.png

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2 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

Hard to know what the fuck was going on with Oats vs BJ.? Look liked BJ had a lead coming to the mark then Oats went inside of them as if BJ sailed wide or had a problem getting a sail down then Oats was way over powered or couldn't ease? But BJ were using those reaching struts at the end and this gave them the better set up? Not sure on the rules for the struts? but they looked like they were working that's for sure. BJ pulling out all Rabbits to gain an edge. Anyone what were the issues Oats had causing them to retire?

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12 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Hard to know what the fuck was going on with Oats vs BJ.? Look liked BJ had a lead coming to the mark then Oats went inside of them as if BJ sailed wide or had a problem getting a sail down then Oats was way over powered or couldn't ease? But BJ were using those reaching struts at the end and this gave them the better set up? Not sure on the rules for the struts? but they looked like they were working that's for sure. BJ pulling out all Rabbits to gain an edge. Anyone what were the issues Oats had causing them to retire?

Ring frame /deck beam exploded.  

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9 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

 

F71C5267-4F3A-43B2-9A99-2659A0B40F52.jpeg

40D68803-5B2D-44A7-8617-D6C79EEF4981.jpeg

Shit .! Weren't they going downwind at the time? Was this caused by something other than slamming? That's going to slow down their preparation I would have thought? There's 1-2 weeks worth of work there surely? 

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18 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Shit .! Weren't they going downwind at the time? Was this caused by something other than slamming? That's going to slow down their preparation I would have thought? There's 1-2 weeks worth of work there surely? 

Off the breeze yes. I wonder if it was deck compressing or shroud load that made it fail.  
Have  heard the new configuration has increased forestay /runner loads 

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17 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

FB_IMG_1573285053173.jpg

FB_IMG_1573285059448.jpg

FB_IMG_1573285062793.jpg

FB_IMG_1573285067882.jpg

1899393714_ScreenShot2019-11-09at14_46_48.png.1133b59ec02efd2608b32ed177fb4cf1.png

The "A" Team at Macca's have their work cut out. There has to be 2-3 weeks worth of work there IMO.? Yes I know they have money and resources but you can't cheat time and the repair process that has to be undertaken. Was this caused from the absolute shaking of the chute that can be seen in the Youtube Video of the start? 

 

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47 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

Not sure if it's saved. I reckon they would have had to cut the bottom section off to get the rig out of the boat.

Maybe it’s going to be a deck stepped mast very soon ?

 

Pulpit

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5 minutes ago, pulpit said:

Maybe it’s going to be a deck stepped mast very soon ?

 

Pulpit

She fucked.   That’s a Monty.   Half of that deck will be delaminated to the shithouse massive job

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55 minutes ago, Zeusproject said:

She fucked.   That’s a Monty.   Half of that deck will be delaminated to the shithouse massive job

looks like it

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14 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

 

FB_IMG_1573285067882.jpg

That’ll be easy to get out.

 

Take your chainsaw, cut a hole in the deck around the mast, remove as one piece. Then cut the bottom 10 foot off the rig - the chainsaw is running anyway.

 

Which raises the question. If you’re going to rebuild the bottom of the rig... do you sleeve at deck level? The break looks higher. So under the gooseneck?

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That's a lot of damage - I hope Ricko's hair didn't get mussed.

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15 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

Not sure if it's saved. I reckon they would have had to cut the bottom section off to get the rig out of the boat.

Well it’s no use where it is, so no big deal in the big picture. Mast splice time? or spare tube somewhere? 

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5 hours ago, Recidivist said:

That's a lot of damage - I hope Ricko's hair didn't get mussed.

Is that even possible?  I assumed it was one piece like a lego man.

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5 hours ago, Recidivist said:

That's a lot of damage - I hope Ricko's hair didn't get mussed.

Word is they have a old rig in Italy still? And looking at logistics of getting it down here. Would be pretty old now though

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The Conundrum is like this IMO:

1. Everybody expects us to do the Hobart and then win the Hobart.

2. Prepare a statement the boat has undergone temporary repairs to compete in the Hobart (Shortcuts as Jack says)

3. Race then as massive underdogs and in light to medium conditions comeback from behind in the dying stages to win the Hobart again

4. Withdraw from the Hobart and Ricco takes on lead commentators role in the Channel 7 Broadcast with his hair in place.

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13 hours ago, terrafirma said:

4. Withdraw from the Hobart and Ricco takes on lead commentators role in the Channel 7 Broadcast with his hair in place.

He has to be the commentator in the chopper surely.  That way he can choose who to stuff their electronics.

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On 12/9/2019 at 9:11 PM, Starwax said:

Looking at social media this morning it appears the boat is fixed. 

Tack over to the Sydney to Hobart thread for Wild Oats info , pictures and videos. And Social Media links

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On 6/20/2019 at 11:38 PM, Sugarscoop said:

They're loosing a bit of water line length there with that bow. Definatly not an all rounder. Even less so then Comanche

The loss of waterline at planing speed IS THE FUCKING POINT.

A planing hull is a super-cavitating foil. A foil with only flow underneath creating lift by high pressure, no flow over the top creating lift by low pressure. Across the water-air interface, supercritical foils work because it’s like an almost perfect near zero (relative) pressure above.

But all foils, including supercavitating foils, see increased lift to drag as aspect ratio Is increased.

This is exactly opposite of displacement speed sailing, where long and skinny is much better.

Lesson: if you want to go up to about 1.5 x sqrt(wl) then go long and skinny. If you want to normally go faster than 1.5 x sqrt(wl) them go fat and short. If you want to go faster than say 3 x sqrt(wl) then go foiling with active controlled foils, and hull is just pure aero drag, so again go long and skinny (like a sail plane fuselage).

If your class is run by cunts, then uncontrolled foils are a small increase between planing and foiling in limited conditions. To work and have any semblance of safety and economy, the foils simply must be actively controlled. Cunts are free to disagree, as is their nature.

Those crossover points are fuzzy and debatable, but in the ball park.

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36 minutes ago, carcrash said:

A planing hull is a super-cavitating foil. A foil with only flow underneath creating lift by high pressure, no flow over the top creating lift by low pressure. Across the water-air interface, supercritical foils work because it’s like an almost perfect near zero (relative) pressure above.

But all foils, including supercavitating foils, see increased lift to drag as aspect ratio Is increased.

This is exactly opposite of displacement speed sailing, where long and skinny is much better.

Lesson: if you want to go up to about 1.5 x sqrt(wl) then go long and skinny. If you want to normally go faster than 1.5 x sqrt(wl) them go fat and short. If you want to go faster than say 3 x sqrt(wl) then go foiling with active controlled foils, and hull is just pure aero drag, so again go long and skinny (like a sail plane fuselage).

^^^^^^ This. And the planing bit is in between 1.5 and 3.0. I saw Comanche hit 2.89 during this race. She may have gone even faster.

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1 hour ago, Sidecar said:

^^^^^^ This. And the planing bit is in between 1.5 and 3.0. I saw Comanche hit 2.89 during this race. She may have gone even faster.

2.89?  Was that during the Derwent drifting?

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And your point is?.... Who won this year’s race?.......... Who holds the record for the race?..... Was it designed for drifting?

And against boats specifically designed and modified for this one race.....

Edited by Sidecar

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Remembering that Wild Oats sailed the fastest time but was docked time due to a port starboard giving Comanche both LH and the record.

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Why do people still say it was a port/starboard incident.  It was not, read the protest decision.  But you are right WOXI really has the fastest time.

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If you want the fastest time ignoring the rules, usually called the course record, that belongs to Sean Langman with Team Australia :lol:

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