Veeger

Barge much? (FP)

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I'd say Scally-oh got good karma comeuppance.  Collision while burdened, (overtaking), tore out the leach via the mast of a leeward boat.  Stole the mark as well.  Can we say DNF? DSQ?

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16 minutes ago, Veeger said:

I'd say Scally-oh got good karma comeuppance.  Collision while burdened, (overtaking), tore out the leach via the mast of a leeward boat.  Stole the mark as well.  Can we say DNF? DSQ?

Since when has overtaking boat been a racing rule? Or, for that matter, 'burdened'?

 

p.s. retired https://www.yachtscoring.com/event_results_detail.cfm?Race_Number=1&eID=5947

 

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Leeward boat (TP52 Zingara carrying a Quantum branded jib?) was 100% right.  I can hear the calls.  "Up, up, up.  You can't come in here.  Windward yacht keep clear.  Up, up, up.  Riiiip... Protest."

Ridiculous.

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Linky?

Until then I will assume that they were barging at the start? 

I was of the thinking that the windward boat has privilege otherwise. 

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Contact occurred inside the three boatlength zone of the starboard end of the line after the gun. Blame might fall on lady mariposa to leeward for holding up zingera who held up witty. 

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6 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Contact occurred inside the three boatlength zone of the starboard end of the line after the gun. Blame might fall on lady mariposa to leeward for holding up zingera who held up witty. 

From the preamble to Section C (of which R18 is a part) of the rules

 

"Section C rules do not apply at a starting marksurrounded by navigable water or at its anchor line from the time boats are approaching them to startuntil they have passed them."

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7 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Contact occurred inside the three boatlength zone of the starboard end of the line after the gun. Blame might fall on lady mariposa to leeward for holding up zingera who held up witty. 

Doesn’t look like it, check the results. 

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19 minutes ago, Skipper Kenny said:

Linky?

Until then I will assume that they were barging at the start? 

I was of the thinking that the windward boat has privilege otherwise. 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=294278558173289&id=192114584341

Comments on the team FB page are even less flattering.

 

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Mad, all I’m seeing is a retirement. No idea if there’s been a protest filed or heard. Though the insurance claim on a $250,000 mainsail probably requires one. With a severed leech line, that thing is toast. I imagine the superyacht molds are firing up in Minden NV as we speak. 

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3 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Mad, all I’m seeing is a retirement. No idea if there’s been a protest filed or heard. Though the insurance claim on a $250,000 mainsail probably requires one. With a severed leech line, that thing is toast. I imagine the superyacht molds are firing up in Minden NV as we speak. 

That's a good point: can North verify that all orders for Minden sails will be built in order received?

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3 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Mad, all I’m seeing is a retirement. No idea if there’s been a protest filed or heard. Though the insurance claim on a $250,000 mainsail probably requires one. With a severed leech line, that thing is toast. I imagine the superyacht molds are firing up in Minden NV as we speak. 

Good point, that’s going to be a hefty bill for someone! Think it was a new main as well for the season, not exactly the best start after the refit. 

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42 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Contact occurred inside the three boatlength zone of the starboard end of the line after the gun. Blame might fall on lady mariposa to leeward for holding up zingera who held up witty. 

Not sure where you get that from - read RRS 11.   If you watch from the start and look where boats are I would say it is safe to say that none of the boats have any RRS 17 restrictions.  They all have luffing rights on their windward boat.  Except for Scallywag that is. 

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A protest was filed under both RRS11 and RRS12.

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1 hour ago, DFL1010 said:

Since when has overtaking boat been a racing rule? Or, for that matter, 'burdened'?

 

p.s. retired https://www.yachtscoring.com/event_results_detail.cfm?Race_Number=1&eID=5947

 

Didn't say it was a racing rule.  Since when do the RRS excuse one from the normal Rules of the Road?  Most RRS specify nuances for racers  in specific circumstances but don't truly change the responsibility to follow the Rules of the Road, Rule 13 in this case..  Please feel free to correct me if they also 'excuse' one from the normal rules of the road.

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3 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Didn't say it was a racing rule.  Since when do the RRS excuse one from the normal Rules of the Road?  Most RRS specify nuances for racers  in specific circumstances but don't truly change the responsibility to follow the Rules of the Road, Rule 13 in this case..  Please feel free to correct me if they also 'excuse' one from the normal rules of the road.

What does tacking have to do with this collision?

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1 minute ago, fastyacht said:

What does tacking have to do with this collision?

Please read more closely.  'tacking' was not part of the subject... 'over TAKING'  vs 'tacking'

 

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10 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Didn't say it was a racing rule.  Since when do the RRS excuse one from the normal Rules of the Road?  Most RRS specify nuances for racers  in specific circumstances but don't truly change the responsibility to follow the Rules of the Road, Rule 13 in this case..  Please feel free to correct me if they also 'excuse' one from the normal rules of the road.

Since always between 2 boats racing, it is in the pre-amble of Part 2

The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 14 when the incident resulted in injury or serious damage, or rule 24.1.

When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or government right-of-way rules. If the sailing instructions so state, the rules of Part 2 are replaced by the right-of-way rules of the IRPCAS or by government right-of-way rules.

Quote

Most RRS specify nuances for racers  in specific circumstances but don't truly change the responsibility to follow the Rules of the Road

Yes they absolutely do between 2 boats racing. And ovetaking boat is a prime example of this.

The lack of rules knowledge in this thread (overtaking boat, room at a starting mark etc.) is frankly terrifying. I hope to god none of you participate in another race without reading the rule book.

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4 minutes ago, Quagers said:

The lack of rules knowledge in this thread (overtaking boat, room at a starting mark etc.) is frankly terrifying. I hope to god none of you participate in another race without reading the rule book.

Yup.

I was racing a 35 footer against a 12 meter a few years ago and the 12 barged us. By holding the boom out and yelling "starboard" while the rest of the main had gybed. What are you going to do? Get t-boned? We have to remember this is all sport and all amateurs anyway. Mostly ignorant most of the time...

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2 minutes ago, Quagers said:

Since always between 2 boats racing, it is in the pre-amble of Part 2

The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 14 when the incident resulted in injury or serious damage, or rule 24.1.

When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or government right-of-way rules. If the sailing instructions so state, the rules of Part 2 are replaced by the right-of-way rules of the IRPCAS or by government right-of-way rules.

The lack of rules knowledge in this thread (overtaking boat, room at a starting mark etc.) is frankly terrifying. I hope to god none of you participate in another race without reading the rule book.

No worries!  I've raced my last some time ago.  Mostly due to idiots and assholes like are represented in this video.  Pracitically speaking however, one of the reasons that boats have luffing rights is, in part, due to the fact that the boat being luffed up is essentially 'overtaking'.  There is a certain symmetry to the rules. (but some more nuances as well)

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9 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Please read more closely.  'tacking' was not part of the subject... 'over TAKING'  vs 'tacking'

 

You said rule 13...

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Just now, fastyacht said:

You said rule 13...

Rules of the Road not RRS,  but I've been corrected....

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1 minute ago, Veeger said:

Rules of the Road not RRS,  but I've been corrected....

Oh ok. LOL.

 

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7 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Yup.

I was racing a 35 footer against a 12 meter a few years ago and the 12 barged us. By holding the boom out and yelling "starboard" while the rest of the main had gybed. What are you going to do? Get t-boned? We have to remember this is all sport and all amateurs anyway. Mostly ignorant most of the time...

Another 'case in point' of idiots and assholes racing.  Stupidity and egos galore in the (most any) racing fleet.  But, gee, how can we get folks to race more?  Why is racing dying?  I have more contempt for this crap than I do for the Orange Man!

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15 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Yup.

I was racing a 35 footer against a 12 meter a few years ago and the 12 barged us. By holding the boom out and yelling "starboard" while the rest of the main had gybed. What are you going to do? Get t-boned? We have to remember this is all sport and all amateurs anyway. Mostly ignorant most of the time...

You can hold the boom out on a 12m against a gybed main????? Who did they have on mast, the Hulk?

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2 minutes ago, Quagers said:

You can hold the boom out on a 12m against a gybed main????? Who did they have on mast, the Hulk?

A  couole hulks actually.

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16 minutes ago, Quagers said:

You can hold the boom out on a 12m against a gybed main????? Who did they have on mast, the Hulk?

Was thinking the same thing! :P

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Was thinking the same thing! :P

Metoo, with those small mains you can hold it with a boom vang, for a short while...

Anyway, interesting question if she is still on starboard or not. Doesn't the rule define it as at which side the main is? Perhaps then the next question is how much of the main had gybed?

 

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Apologies for a rue smile...

Surely should have ducked down hard at 1 min and hooked the the smaller boats. Might have been held up for all of a about, ooooh,  5 seconds by starting a few feet down the line (and not snagging the mark) and won the race (and not lost the hearts of the armchair observers)

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suspect a new windex is cheaper than that main ................<_<

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Witty ain't known as F. for nothing. 

Very poor form for professionals.. they should know that the leeward boat will pop up in their shadow.  Lucky that TP(?) didn't lose its rig.. Scally's leech line stayed hooked to the mast crane and dragged her over.

EDIT: Found a Photo on the race website -- looks like the lazy runner

asw19d1-1004.jpg

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3 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Leeward boat (TP52 Zingara carrying a Quantum branded jib?) was 100% right.  I can hear the calls.  "Up, up, up.  You can't come in here.  Windward yacht keep clear.  Up, up, up.  Riiiip... Protest."

Ridiculous.

Looks like a pretty good time on distance start for the movable wind shadow

Shame that they forgot to leave enough distance to the TP which heeled to windward when they lost their wind!  Lucky the TP didn't lose their mast

It is not just in the boat park rigging your dinghy that you must look up.  Powerlines and mast head wind instruments can both ruin your day... One can be fatal!

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Why is it always Scallywag? It doesn't matter where they go or where they race they are always "Involved in an incident" to quote their Instagram page. That boat will never realise it's potential under that watch. They traveled all that way OS to destroy their main.! They should have stayed home and did it. 

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Even minus the contact it appeared that Scallywag committed a foul with that start. What were they thinking? There was no reason to be that aggressive at the start. There was literally no competition to keep them from getting off the line cleanly and being able to do whatever they wanted to do tactically in 2 minutes no matter where on the line they started.  "Don't be early, don't barge," were their only two concerns. Yet, they only managed to get it 50% right.

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

We have to remember this is all sport and all amateurs anyway. Mostly ignorant most of the time...

Wouldn't call Witty an amateur, and calling him ignorant might be a bit of an understatement.  ;)

Talking about amateurs, I remember an Antigua Week start, 1st day right inside English Harbour. A 90ft sloop with the (Italian?) owner steering and a huge CQR still on the bow, decides to barge close reaching at full speed into the start line line-up. After hitting the first leeward boat bow on, he panics and goes hard over to starboard hitting a boat who thought it was safe from the shouting idiot, and finally he somehow managed to hit a third boat.

The guy was banned from the regatta, and all boats had to remove their anchors from then on...

 

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48 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Wouldn't call Witty an amateur, and calling him ignorant might be a bit of an understatement.  ;)

Talking about amateurs, I remember an Antigua Week start, 1st day right inside English Harbour. A 90ft sloop with the (Italian?) owner steering and a huge CQR still on the bow, decides to barge close reaching at full speed into the start line line-up. After hitting the first leeward boat bow on, he panics and goes hard over to starboard hitting a boat who thought it was safe from the shouting idiot, and finally he somehow managed to hit a third boat.

The guy was banned from the regatta, and all boats had to remove their anchors from then on...

 

If he's not an Amateur what is he? He's no Pro in my book. There in lies the challenge. 

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2 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Metoo, with those small mains you can hold it with a boom vang, for a short while...

Anyway, interesting question if she is still on starboard or not. Doesn't the rule define it as at which side the main is? Perhaps then the next question is how much of the main had gybed?

 

The held it just past centerline. It was only about 10-12 and they were doing 6...

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6 hours ago, Veeger said:

I'd say Scally-oh got good karma comeuppance.  Collision while burdened, (overtaking), tore out the leach via the mast of a leeward boat.  Stole the mark as well.  Can we say DNF? DSQ?

What has burdened (overtaking) got to do with it?

Rule 11 & 14 both apply but 'overtaking' is not in the rule book unless you are thinking IRPCAS.

I know videos can be deceiving but I don't think they stole the mark or were barging but performing what used to be called a "Vanderbuilt start" from the old big boat days or what is more modernly called a timed run. 

Certainly RTD would be the score, only DSQ if the leeward boat took them to the room, or another boat which saw the incident. No-one else has any right to protest and cannot be DSQ without a hearing.

If RTD then protest would be pointless as it wouldn't change the score in a regatta unless the leeward boat might think it would help with any insurance claim if any damage ( a myth with many insurance companies by the way)

A very careless AND expensive mistake by the driver. (Was Witty even on board?)

See ya on the water (but nowhere near Scally)

SS

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10 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

The held it just past centerline. It was only about 10-12 and they were doing 6...

The boom has to cross the centreline for the boat to be considered as gybing. If the boom was "just past centreline" they would be considered as gybing.

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1 minute ago, terrafirma said:

If he's not an Amateur what is he? He's no Pro in my book. There in lies the challenge. 

He is a Pro fucker-upper in my book, without a doubt.

But he also takes on more than most, and will cut him some slack as far as the tragic MOB and the Sudocrem is concerned.

 

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19 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

The boom has to cross the centreline for the boat to be considered as gybing. If the boom was "just past centreline" they would be considered as gybing.

Except that if they are holding it against the natural inclination (the sail isn't gybed) it's just horseshittery.

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16 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Certainly RTD would be the score, only DSQ if the leeward boat took 

It's a collision that caused serious damage. Her penalty was to retire, and I believe the PC may not DSQ a boat that has already retired.

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36 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

The boom has to cross the centreline for the boat to be considered as gybing. If the boom was "just past centreline" they would be considered as gybing.

I think he means the boom was still "past the centerline", on the port side. Anyway, it is not a matter of gybing, it's whether they were still on starboard or not.

Starboard is defined by her windward side, and windward side is defined by the mainsail. Quote from the definitions: "However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies.  The other side is her windward side."

That's why I was asking how much of the main had gybed across the centerline, and is that even a deciding factor.

 

 

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Enough! this is Arrogance in action....lucky the TP52 didn't have it's mast pulled out. Lives endangered, $1/4M sail totally written off....this kind of complete disregard for the rules and total recklessness deserves the issuing of a "holiday" to the so called "professional" Scallywank after-guard from the sailing administration.... but it won't....cos it's gutless.

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There's onboard footage from the TP which paints a good picture. On FB but can't share...

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

I know videos can be deceiving but I don't think they stole the mark or were barging

And you are a qualified judge or "under water" referee?

 

Edited by Fiji Bitter
Under water referee

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1 hour ago, Couta said:

Enough! this is Arrogance in action....lucky the TP52 didn't have it's mast pulled out. Lives endangered, $1/4M sail totally written off....this kind of complete disregard for the rules and total recklessness deserves the issuing of a "holiday" to the so called "professional" Scallywank after-guard from the sailing administration.... but it won't....cos it's gutless.

Rubbin is racin.

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2 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

I know videos can be deceiving but I don't think they stole the mark or were barging but performing what used to be called a "Vanderbuilt start" from the old big boat days or what is more modernly called a timed run...

SS

They may not have been barging but any time you hit the start mark, let alone drag it along for awhile, and at the same time snag the rig of a leeward boat you are sticking your boat in where it don't belong.

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That's not the one I saw, it was from onboard the TP. The one I was talking about was by a friend who sails onboard so it's not shareable outside friends.

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7 minutes ago, Jethrow said:

That's not the one I saw, it was from onboard the TP. The one I was talking about was by a friend who sails onboard so it's not shareable outside friends.

I was replying to Frantic.

Ask your friend to post it here, or go and share his facefuck.

 

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What's really interesting about this race is that a Santa Cruz 70 was sailed doublehanded, and did not run over a mark. 

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At least in that video they admitted responsibility to the TP52 owner and covered his repairs. Lucky for the deep pockets of Mr Scallywank.! 

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7 hours ago, 10thTonner said:

Which part of windward/leeward didn't they understand?

Did I hear someone call mast abeam?   :unsure:

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25 minutes ago, couchsurfer said:

Did I hear someone call mast abeam?   :unsure:

Hi Couch, good to see you are still in good shape.

Shang will be along shortly to explain why nobody called mast abeam. :P

Or, since Shang has me pretty much on ignore, you could start here:

See post #6

"Just a note, "mast abeam" does not exist in the rules, and has not for 10 years or so".

Posted June 28, 2005

 

 

 

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Classic big fast boat rolling over a smaller one too close aboard, and snagging rigs, no luffing needed, but failing to keep clear.  

Leeward bost didn’t “alter course” (though popped up predictably ) and Scallywag failed to keep clear. 

Lesson for the big guys to learn, more often see it take out the big boats reaching. Spinnaker.  

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8 hours ago, Quagers said:

The lack of rules knowledge in this thread (overtaking boat, room at a starting mark etc.) is frankly terrifying. I hope to god none of you participate in another race without reading the rule book.

Ding!

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6 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

Witty ain't known as F. for nothing. 

Very poor form for professionals.. they should know that the leeward boat will pop up in their shadow.  Lucky that TP(?) didn't lose its rig.. Scally's leech line stayed hooked to the mast crane and dragged her over.

EDIT: Found a Photo on the race website -- looks like the lazy runner

asw19d1-1004.jpg

FARK!  I'd be surprised if that rig on the TP52 wasn't also toast after being yanked forward like that.  I'm not sure that I would sail that again until I dropped the mast and had it thoroughly inspected first.  

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I've had the same happen to me though not on the start line,, a boat much faster with a 40ft mast insisted in going over the top of us. Even though I had moved up to give them a clear run at the buoy, well outside 3 boat lengths . Of course as their sail went past our 25ft mast went upright, they heeled more, and our mast punched a hole through their main, that entangled us with them.  We got dragged well past the bouy as we tried get untangled and lost two places in our fleet.. 

In the incident of the thread, As has been said before he had no rights at that buoy once the others closed the gap, he should have 360'd behind them or better still kept his eyes open and ducked below the smaller boats before hand.

Oh we have a specific rule,  anchors are not allowed to be carried on the bow, neither are outboards on the stern during racing.

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5 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

 

I know videos can be deceiving but I don't think they stole the mark or were barging

Well they hit the mark with their bowsprit...

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Scallywank are my favourite news based team,. Witty and the gang were seen partying the whole week on the piss in Antigua..! And why wouldn't you? Owner happy to pay for everything and you have a racing 100" yacht with so much potential to play with. ! Got to give them credit for breaking this boat all the farking time.! Well done lads.......

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11 hours ago, Quagers said:

 

The lack of rules knowledge in this thread (overtaking boat, room at a starting mark etc.) is frankly terrifying. I hope to god none of you participate in another race without reading the rule book.

+100

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6 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

I think he means the boom was still "past the centerline", on the port side. Anyway, it is not a matter of gybing, it's whether they were still on starboard or not.

Starboard is defined by her windward side, and windward side is defined by the mainsail. Quote from the definitions: "However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies.  The other side is her windward side."

That's why I was asking how much of the main had gybed across the centerline, and is that even a deciding factor.

 

 

I see where you are coming from Fiji. It is what the boom does and where the boom is. Until the boom crosses the centre line she is not considered to be gybing and the gybe isn't complete until the main is full on the new gybe.

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7 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Except that if they are holding it against the natural inclination (the sail isn't gybed) it's just horseshittery.

Actually no - it's the rule. If you look at the definitions (they are right at the start of the rule book and all the rules "hang off them".

Under the definition "Leeward & Windward" it states "her leeward side is the side on which the mainsail lies". Then when you couple that with the definition for "Tack" it states that a boats tack is "corresponding to her windward side" which is of course the side OPPOSITE "the side on which the mainsail lies".

 And of course that is the level of detail judges in the room or umpires on the race course have to get down to define, what are sometimes, tricky situations.

When I run any rules training sessions the definitions are what I always cover first because as the name suggests they DEFINE the Racing Rules of Sailing.

It may sound like horseshittery but they are the rules and as Rule 3.1 states all of us who go yacht racing agree to be bound by those rules.

And some people think being an umpire is easy - ha!

See you on the water - I will be the one with the flags :-)

SS

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2 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

I see where you are coming from Fiji. It is what the boom does and where the boom is. Until the boom crosses the centre line she is not considered to be gybing and the gybe isn't complete until the main is full on the new gybe.

Thanks Shang, that settles it for me, as it is what you can see and establish without argument.

All fastyacht can do is shout louder, next time.  :o

 

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6 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

And you are a qualified judge or "under water" referee?

 

On my way there Fiji, only umpired a little over 700 races so far, mainly match but a little team and fleet (which is strictly speaking 'On the Water Judging') so a relative beginner. Was told on a level around AUS State umpire hope to cross the National Umpire threshold before the end of the year.

My mentor has done countless thousands including 2 ACs so I have a lot to learn. I find the rules fascinating and the exams are frigging challenging. 

Barging is coming in from an angle below close hauled exercising non-existing rights as a windward boat and the term doesn't - as I recall - appear anywhere in the rule book. It is governed however by Rule 11. I have flagged it on many occasions and have been the victim of it in fleet racing.

What Scallywag appears to be doing is "charging"- quite different - winding up to full speed from way back on a timed run for the line. She may have bene sailing a little low and as I mentioned before video from an angle can be deceptive and if the posted video had no collision involved which clearly shows a Rule 11 infringement then I would be surprised if any jury paid much heed - it is too far away and not a clear angle to see the relationship between the pin, Scallywag and the leeward boat. It is rare for long distance videos to have a clear enough perspective to be useful other than a general guide to boat positions.

I think I may have misunderstood a previous comment from someone that Scallywag "stole the mark" as I only watched the video until the collision and didn't realise she actually DID steal the mark and take it with her - they should have remembered the canting keel ha ha!

See ya Fiji

SS 

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5 hours ago, ride2live said:

They may not have been barging but any time you hit the start mark, let alone drag it along for awhile, and at the same time snag the rig of a leeward boat you are sticking your boat in where it don't belong.

Did I say any different ride2 live?

Just seen the supplemental video where  they have at lease stepped up, owned up and cashed up. They're a bit crazy sometimes but not evil.

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I wonder if the boss was onboard?

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18 minutes ago, mad said:

I wonder if the boss was onboard?

You mean David Witt or Mr Lee?

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16 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

You mean David Witt or Mr Lee?

Mr Lee, 

The organ grinder, not the monkey. 

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21 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

See ya Fiji

Thanks again Shang, of course I was well aware of your expertise, and as usual was just teasing you a little bit. On the water umpiring must be a tortuous business, and you can be proud of what you put back into the sport !

Anyway, we seem to agree that Scaly was probably sailing a little low, and since there was obviously not enough room, we could agree to call it "a little barging", like a little pregnant perhaps. :)

Furthermore, "charging" as you call it, is a legit tactic if the start line is not too crowded, but doing that at the windward mark makes it suicidal, period. They should have luffed Scaly head to wind (before the start) just to teach them a lesson, but not sure if I would have dared to do that myself.

 

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1 hour ago, shanghaisailor said:

I see where you are coming from Fiji. It is what the boom does and where the boom is. Until the boom crosses the centre line she is not considered to be gybing and the gybe isn't complete until the main is full on the new gybe.

Wrong. That is only match racing. Fleet and team racing there is no requirement to fill the main. 

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11 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

not sure if I would have dared to do that myself.

Having a bit of fun with a 100'er at full chat, even when it's within the rules sure takes some balls ;)

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Mr Lee, 

The organ grinder, not the monkey. 

The organ grinder was definitely not steering himself, he would not have fucked up that badly. In one of the Volvo in-shores he proofed to be a pretty decent helmsman actually. Did not see him on board in any of the shots either.

Neither was the monkey steering, he was sitting on his arse, jumping up to look at the carnage under the boom.

That leaves a nervously steering baboon on the helm, who was that hotfuck, Mr Lee's son perhaps?

(There was no crew list for Scaly on the web site, like for some of the others.)

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Little wonder our sport is fucked....supposedly "professional" teams are allowed to intimidate with gross negligence....pay the bills with someone else's money...and walk away till another day and do it again. These clowns have a track record. Any sport administration with balls would step in and sort this out....not ours.

 

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55 minutes ago, Gone Drinking said:

Wrong. That is only match racing. Fleet and team racing there is no requirement to fill the main. 

I agree, however I noticed the other day that the reference to the mainsail needing to fill after a gybe for team racing is still hiding in the call book.

TR Call K1:

Quote

Answer 4: The umpires should judge whether the penalty was completed before crossing the finishing line and, if not, they should report this to the race committee. If the boat fails to finish in accordance with the definition, she should be scored DNF (see rule A5). A boat completes a penalty when, if she gybes first, she reaches a close-hauled course after tacking, or, if she tacks first, her mainsail fills on the new side after gybing.

I wonder if there is some deliberate reason for this, or they just forgot to change it when the requirement for the mainsail to fill in a gybe was removed from Appendix C.

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3 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Actually no - it's the rule. If you look at the definitions (they are right at the start of the rule book and all the rules "hang off them".

Under the definition "Leeward & Windward" it states "her leeward side is the side on which the mainsail lies". Then when you couple that with the definition for "Tack" it states that a boats tack is "corresponding to her windward side" which is of course the side OPPOSITE "the side on which the mainsail lies".

 And of course that is the level of detail judges in the room or umpires on the race course have to get down to define, what are sometimes, tricky situations.

When I run any rules training sessions the definitions are what I always cover first because as the name suggests they DEFINE the Racing Rules of Sailing.

It may sound like horseshittery but they are the rules and as Rule 3.1 states all of us who go yacht racing agree to be bound by those rules.

And some people think being an umpire is easy - ha!

See you on the water - I will be the one with the flags :-)

SS


OK I haven't explained well. You weren't there I was. The sail was on the stbd side. They had gybed. They pushed the boom back over to port (just over) but the sail was still on the starboard side.

Enough already. I know the rulebook too. This wasn't sailing by the lee (we do that all the time in dinghies to remain on starboard). But this is all a digression. Once they had their opening (what are you going to do--let them sink you?) They let the boom go back over to starboard and rolled over us. It was just stupid., You had a bunch of antiques on the water and put that kind of thinking into it. Fortunately cool heads prevailed.
If you want to pretend from your couch that you were there and that this was all "by the book" go right ahead. Won't change reality.

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11 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

OK I haven't explained Well.

Indeed not well at all, and now you change your story and go off on Shang who was simply responding to my question.

You really are a fucking turnip head !

 

 

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1 minute ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Indeed not well at all, and now you change your story and go off on Shang who was simply responding to my question.

You really are a fucking turnip head !

 

 

LOL. I'm not going off. Just fully explaining. This is internut at its finest. Didn't change story either. I do like turnips. Hopefully we'll race someday and you can watch my transom walking away with turnips in my wake ;-)

 

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13 hours ago, terrafirma said:

They traveled all that way OS to destroy their main.! They should have stayed home and did it. 

Then it wouldn't be newsworthy. :P

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1 hour ago, Quagers said:

I agree, however I noticed the other day that the reference to the mainsail needing to fill after a gybe for team racing is still hiding in the call book.

TR Call K1:

I wonder if there is some deliberate reason for this, or they just forgot to change it when the requirement for the mainsail to fill in a gybe was removed from Appendix C.

But it's not removed from Appendix C:

C 13.2 After the foot of the mainsail of a boat sailing downwind crosses the centreline she shall keep clear of other boats until her mainsail has filled or she is no longer sailing downwind.

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2 hours ago, Couta said:

Little wonder our sport is fucked....supposedly "professional" teams are allowed to intimidate with gross negligence....pay the bills with someone else's money...and walk away till another day and do it again. These clowns have a track record. Any sport administration with balls would step in and sort this out....not ours.

 

Hey, it's racing. Relax. In the competition sometimes people push too far or misjudge. Have you never bumped your boom into someone else's shroud while dinghy racing?
Still a good sport, laughing at it with some consternation. On the other hand I also get rather upset in the moment, when someone fouls me. Sometimes I remember the event, especially if it was wilfull (see above).

One thing is pretty clear. If you mix those two "fleets," you increase the chances of this sort of thing happening. Having raced on the same line with 90 foot WL boats, I can tell you it is nerve wracking while also thrilling. As long as everyone puts collision avoidance first, it can work, but not if it is all-out racing behavior.

And we accept that when we race. That's why we have to have insurance to enter. That's why we sign waivers. If you go into a sailboat race with scales over your eyes well then!

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1 hour ago, Gone Drinking said:

But it's not removed from Appendix C:

C 13.2 After the foot of the mainsail of a boat sailing downwind crosses the centreline she shall keep clear of other boats until her mainsail has filled or she is no longer sailing downwind.

Sorry, typo, I meant Appendix D, team racing.