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Honeycomb too delicate for cruising?

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Hi,

I am currently looking at an older, largish catamaran built with honeycomb above the waterline. 

When inspecting the boat I noticed a piece of paper, that the previous owner obviously had pinned on the side of the boat when in harbor: "Please don't go alongside, Honeycomb".

Is this construction method so delicate, that owners have to worry about these things? Or was that an unfounded fear? 

Paul 

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Depends on the laminate either side.  Honeycomb is less likely to dent but more likely to puncture or delaminate.  What’s the boat that’s a high end structure?

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8 hours ago, toolbar said:

Hi,

I am currently looking at an older, largish catamaran built with honeycomb above the waterline. 

When inspecting the boat I noticed a piece of paper, that the previous owner obviously had pinned on the side of the boat when in harbor: "Please don't go alongside, Honeycomb".

Is this construction method so delicate, that owners have to worry about these things? Or was that an unfounded fear? 

Paul 

Try to pose your questions to Lord Teal of Nida-Core.

http://www.onboardlifestyle.com/index.html

He is doing the mother of all refits on a honeycomb cruising cat and seems friendly and helpful and very knowledgeable.

He might be a bit biased though.

 

My boat is Nomex and no problems. 

Edited by Kalimotxo

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Nida-Core is shit. I may be a bit biased though.

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14 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Nida-Core is shit. I may be a bit biased though.

and heavy...

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1 minute ago, Zonker said:

Nida-Core is shit. I may be a bit biased though.

No you’re not wrong, 

The only possible use would be for flat, lightweight internal panels, using plastic skins and a contact adhesive as a public toilet divide. And even then, why would you? it’s absolutely shit to work with and won’t even stay flat when you open the box......and that was just the 1 square metre sample we had. 

 

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I delivered a 54' motorcat from the builder in Fl to the VI and the damned thing did its best to self-destruct along the way. One word, NidaCore...

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1 minute ago, coyote said:

I wouldn't use Nada-Core for anything more structural than furniture.

Don’t let the kids jump on it!

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37 minutes ago, coyote said:

I wouldn't use Nada-Core for anything

fixed it for you

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Wasn’t Warta Polpharm aka Jet Service V aka Commodore Explorer
Explorer, Honeycomb?

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On 5/8/2019 at 7:32 AM, SCANAS said:

Wasn’t Warta Polpharm aka Jet Service V aka Commodore Explorer
Explorer, Honeycomb?

probably, but so? lots of race boats are nomex honeycomb.

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OK, the 80/20 consensus apparently is that Nida-Core shouldn't be trusted.  

Excuse my ignorant question: Does this apply to all forms of honeycomb or just especially this brand? Are there or rather have there been (the cat I was looking at was build in 1991) other alternatives, or have they patented and monopolized the honeycomb core stuff?

Paul 

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Honeycomb is a typical structural element in high end composite construction. There are various grades of nomex, then you have aluminum honeycomb and even foam that has been combed out. The latest and greatest is carbon honeycomb but that is a niche product. We are also playing with some 3D printed honeycomb core materials (bond is an issue). If the boat was built right then they used pre-preg with nomex and did it all in-house. The original builder can tell you more. Nida-Core doesn't hold any patent or monopolization on the product, its just one brand that makes it available to the marine industry. This is just one example of a product available to the masses and at a much higher quality than most marine grade products: https://dragonplate.com/Carbon-Fiber-Honeycomb

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Isn’t Nida core polypropylene? I can’t think of a worse core material. It has bugger all compression strength, doesn’t handle high temps and just about nothing sticks to it!

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41 minutes ago, he b gb said:

Isn’t Nida core polypropylene? I can’t think of a worse core material. It has bugger all compression strength, doesn’t handle high temps and just about nothing sticks to it!

Sounds like it ticks all the boxes!

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4 hours ago, he b gb said:

Isn’t Nida core polypropylene? I can’t think of a worse core material. It has bugger all compression strength, doesn’t handle high temps and just about nothing sticks to it!

It has a thermofused scrim bonded to it that you can laminate to. But ya.... its shit.

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In case there are still some of you smart kids reading this - will water propagate through nomex honeycomb if punctured below DWL? 

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Generally speaking yes, it is pretty porous material. A lot depends on the core to skin bond as well. For that and the delmanination concerns under slamming loads its not my favorite material in that application...

If you have an issue though its relatively easy to get the water out and affect a repair, the nomex should be undamaged by the water ingress.

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On 5/6/2019 at 4:53 AM, toolbar said:

Hi,

I am currently looking at an older, largish catamaran built with honeycomb above the waterline. 

When inspecting the boat I noticed a piece of paper, that the previous owner obviously had pinned on the side of the boat when in harbor: "Please don't go alongside, Honeycomb".

Is this construction method so delicate, that owners have to worry about these things? Or was that an unfounded fear? 

Paul 

In my dad’s lab they had some very delicate instruments they were using/developing. As one offs, they  were not well  protected (or even really in cabinets) so any unwanted attention by the curious or accidental contact by housekeeping could have cost some real money and wasted weeks of assembly effort.

My dad’s colleague placed a sign on the lab bench:

Warning Unshielded Electrical Equipment

 10,000 ohms

approach at your peril

The equipment was unmolested (while the dust accumulated, and the waste paper baskets overflowed)

The honeycomb message may have had the same intent. Those in the know would be naturally careful enough. The ignorant might be scared into due caution.

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On 7/12/2019 at 5:28 PM, samc99us said:

Generally speaking yes, it is pretty porous material. A lot depends on the core to skin bond as well. For that and the delmanination concerns under slamming loads its not my favorite material in that application...

 If you have an issue though its relatively easy to get the water out and affect a repair, the nomex should be undamaged by the water ingress.

I'll add to this a little: Someone recently told me that they heard an insurance company tell them that on 'performance boats', if you make a little hole in the hull - the entire hull needs to be replaced. 

I just thought: what a silly thing to say. Where does that come from?

It must have stemmed from something and definitely you can consider some incidents where wet-bagged double cut core  allowed water to propogate through the core meant huge swaths of under DWL core needed to be replaced. Or perhaps it is worse for Nomex honeycomb , although I thought it was impermeable in the sidewalls of the cells. 

What about the thousands of balsa cored yachts out there, water will propagate through that too. So I am just collecting some real world experience before I help to put a stop - or clarify - any bad rumors. 

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A-Cat nomex hulls have been damaged plenty in racing incidents, by damaged I mean whole sterns removed etc. and they've been repaired without ill effect down the road. 10mm Nomex core between a layer of 5.7oz cloth each side. Allow to drain and dry prior to repair of course.

I believe some nomex sidewalls are coated and some aren't, but regardless its repairable (see VO65 bow repair in Auckland as further evidence).

Balsa core is the worst in terms of water propagation, and prevalent in plenty of cruisers. It is one of the better core materials if meticulously isolated as most know.

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I was surprised to find out that Catana used Nida Core in all of their structural bulkheads for several years. It seems like a REALLY bad choice for structural anything. Bimini, interior panels, etc would be fine. But the main bulkhead? Really bad choice. 

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1 hour ago, soma said:

I was surprised to find out that Catana used Nida Core in all of their structural bulkheads for several years. It seems like a REALLY bad choice for structural anything. Bimini, interior panels, etc would be fine. But the main bulkhead? Really bad choice. 

I hate to hear that too Soma. I love Catana but have had really bad experiences on a motorcat ferry that used NidaCore extensively. Thankfully now NIDA-CORE has become 

NADA-MORE.

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I've seen some opinions that if the laminate bond isn't compromised, the core sheer value significantly reduced, or the compression changed then saturation is just a weight issue.

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Whoa. Not nice to hear about Catana using Nida-Core for structural bulkheads. There was a web site some disgruntled owner set up that had pictures of several square feet of topside of a new boat that had to be repaired due to 'never-bond' core issues. 

I think the main bulkhead structural issues were unrelated but too lazy to search the Catana owner forum.

Honeycomb isn't "delicate" - but likely the skins on the original boat were thin for performance reasons so were likely to be delicate and not very puncture resistant.

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It would be nice to know what production years the Cantana's used Nida-Core in structural bulkheads....

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

Whoa. Not nice to hear about Catana using Nida-Core for structural bulkheads. There was a web site some disgruntled owner set up that had pictures of several square feet of topside of a new boat that had to be repaired due to 'never-bond' core issues. 

What's crazy is the furniture had divinycell. Only the bulkheads are Nida-Core. Someone read the call-out backwards!

Quote

I think the main bulkhead structural issues were unrelated but too lazy to search the Catana owner forum.

I would certainly think that they're linked. 

What im surprised about is so many Catana's are "doing it", sailing long-distance long term. 

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4 hours ago, Bruno said:

I've seen some opinions that if the laminate bond isn't compromised, the core sheer value significantly reduced, or the compression changed then saturation is just a weight issue.

Fire resistance probably improves after saturation   :ph34r:

I have seen numbers where strength improves after saturation of core. But I have no idea how that would be possible. You are well past initial failure when it is wet, no?

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6 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

I hate to hear that too Soma. I love Catana but have had really bad experiences on a motorcat ferry that used NidaCore extensively. Thankfully now NIDA-CORE has become 

NADA-MORE.

so Ras, what was the fail mode of Nida Core?

Laminates separating off the core?

Core failing in shear and collapsing?

Heat causing delamination?

Or just a really bendy boat that didn't break but was alarming?

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Slamming under the bridgedeck delamed the outer skin which eventually tore and big flaps of laminate were hanging down in shreds. Got that fixed at great expense (laying up glass overhead!) but then all the superstructure was taking in water from the least join, hardware mounting drill hole or anything that rainwater could get too. Huge sliding windows lower track slides were all screwed into sill and water got in there. Boat just kept going down on its lines and I was drilling a hole to mount a throwable life ring on a vertical bulkhead and water just started squirting out for about 10 minutes. The water was coming from a upper deck drain and had filled the panel below up to about 5' high! Boat was fatally flawed by design from the get go, Nida-Core was just the bullet to the head.

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13 hours ago, Kalimotxo said:

Fire resistance probably improves after saturation   :ph34r:

I have seen numbers where strength improves after saturation of core. But I have no idea how that would be possible. You are well past initial failure when it is wet, no?

Nomex is pretty impervious to water (as are other core materials like Klegicell), as is the surrounding laminate, so if you replace air with a denser material such as water that happens to also be a little stronger molecule than air, tada, you now have a stronger structure. This of course ignores the hole where the initial water ingress occurred, and the minor details like strength to weight ratio, or the simple fact that your structure now weighs twice as much so the laminate has to do 4x the work in a 2g situation. Clearly it was never designed to work at those high load cases so failure is quite likely..

Also, most composite structures are stiffness driven, not strength driven, and I would expect soggy core to be less stiff than dry core, but maybe not...

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7 hours ago, samc99us said:

Nomex is pretty impervious to water (as are other core materials like Klegicell), as is the surrounding laminate, so if you replace air with a denser material such as water that happens to also be a little stronger molecule than air, tada, you now have a stronger structure. This of course ignores the hole where the initial water ingress occurred, and the minor details like strength to weight ratio, or the simple fact that your structure now weighs twice as much so the laminate has to do 4x the work in a 2g situation. Clearly it was never designed to work at those high load cases so failure is quite likely..

Also, most composite structures are stiffness driven, not strength driven, and I would expect soggy core to be less stiff than dry core, but maybe not...

Well if wet core was an advantage? We’d have been using it for the last decade or two :blink:

FFS!

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Not saying core replacement is a scam, rotten or disbonded core always should be replaced, I just think that some might be surprised at how much moisture is in some laminates.

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From my own building and repair experience the right Nomex for marine use  is resin impreginated, has great compressive strength for its weight and does not let water migrate between cells.  But in highly curved areas of the hull it is necisarry to go to overexpanded Nomex which is easier to fit.  There are also Nomex choices which have slight scoring in the walls to propigate air release in layup and is more common in aerospace...but that choice would allow water migration.  Also I have seen builders score the stuff to allow it to bend which would also aid water migration.  

Nomex can drastically reduce the weight of a structure...there is quite a bit more weight savings to be had switching from foam core to Nomex than weight savings switching from fiberglass to carbon skins.  However it is a lot harder product to use compared to foam and for best results prepreg laminates and glue film bonding of core to skins is required if done top notch.

 

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When you vacuum bag honeycomb, how do you keep from the skins from bowing in at the center of each cell? 

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5 hours ago, ziper1221 said:

When you vacuum bag honeycomb, how do you keep from the skins from bowing in at the center of each cell? 

I haven't worked with Honeycomb for a while now, but the pressure on top of each cell (on top of the laminate) is just taken by the cell walls in compression, what you can to avoid is edge loading/side pressure or the whole thing will concertina on you. That is why they always edge the sheets with either (or both) a hard mold/wood edge or by filling it with resin/core bond. I think you can also get away with it using a long core chamfer down to zero. We once did the edging and chamfers for a monohull raceboat nomex hull core with corecell foam, to be safe.

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After having been involved with Nomex cored Stiletto catamarans for around 40 years, I would absolutely have a Nomex cored cruising boat if I could afford it.  I have seen and been a part of major crashes and the resulting repairs. The repairs are no more difficult than any proper repair to a cored structure.  The current Stiletto that we have is over 30 years old and is every bit as strong and stiff as the day that it was built.  If you use phenolic resin infused Nomex, water can only migrate to cells opened by the damage.  I have no experience and cannot speak about other honeycomb cores.

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     I have been wondering what took P so long to chime in here. I can add that we had a very early Stiletto 27 that we crashed and fixed back up and sold and then bought back maybe three times over the years from either the owners or the insurance company after various crashes and mishaps. Boat was pretty straightforward to repair and looked and sailed like new each time. The factory in Sarasota had a hull up on posts on display as you walked in the front door. There was one of the brass mallets that came with the boat to drive in the tapered drift pins that locked the telescoping crossbeams in place that was chained to the unpainted hull. I think it was there so that you could see the hex pattern of the Nomex core which you really couldn't see on the outside after they were prime and painted. But then they would invite you to take the mallet and bang away on the hull to your satisfaction and that was a pretty convincing sales trick. Those Sarasota trips for the Nationals are some of my fondest sailing memories. Especially the parties which most of which I can't remember...

     In those days, the Stiletto sailors were nearly as damage tolerant as the boats they raced! RIP Colin.

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Hmmm, I can't leave this unloved honeycomb boat alone and had a closer look a few days ago.

Bulkheads in this boat are honeycomb too, of course. :-) A number of the bulkheads show cracks and other deformations. It seems that the bulkhead cutouts haven't even been laminated over - just the wood trim over the open cut (see the deformation picture). The honeycomb meterial is not from an internationally known supplier,  but from a German company http://www.tubus-waben.de/en/index.html that I had never heard of before.

Question is: RUN AWAY AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE or have a surveyor/boatbuilder take a closer look what it would take to fix it?

Paul

 

 

crack1.png

crack2.png

deformation.png

honeycomb.jpg

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The skin failure in the top corner of the door aperture is just that, not a core issue. That localized stress requires additional localized strength in the skins, apparently not provided. How does the other corner look?

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58 minutes ago, boardhead said:

How does the other corner look?

Thanks for having a look.

The backside of the bulkheads have either no visible or a slightly smaller crack. The other 3 corners of the cutouts have no cracks. 

Paul 

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So if there is no delamination and associated step in the laminate you could thoroughly prep the surface and lay on some unidirectional filaments perpendicular to the break. Because the crack has opened it suggests a tensile loading which may be associated with the standing or active rig loading. The crack corresponds with the wooden door surround joint which is creating a point loading, the uni’s are a more effective way to address the load but you could open the joint, realign and epoxy it back together.

The  bulkheads are there to stabilize the hull form. The bulkhead with the broken  skin has been compromised by the removal of the middle area to allow access fore and aft, now we have a ring frame with greater localized  loadings, filling the cut out edge with thickened resin prior to installing the joint compromised wooden frame would not help much.

I really don’t think this particular failure has anything to do with the selected core material, rather the cut out and lack of an effective ring frame.

 

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It's sort of caused by not laminating the two skins together around a cutout. You get big stress concentrations in cutouts like that.

Best Solution is not to strap the crack with unis, but grind around the corner and join the two sides together, then re-install the wood trim.

I've got a technical paper from High Modulus that describes the much greater shear force concentrations in a girder. They took a 300mm deep girder and cut a 50mm hole in the middle. Resulting shear depth = 300 - 50 = 250mm. But the girder failed in shear at about half the expected load of a girder with a 250mm depth - just due to shear concentration.

image.png.0cd1f86bc52dd92f599ed3446bcdcfdb.png

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Sorry, not a valid analogy and my suggestion is the correct remedy.

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     Bit of an abrupt response, sorry about that and not sure we want to get into some involved shear web analysis here but given that this topic is questioning the suitability of honeycomb as a core we should at least, based on our experience in composite structures, advise toolbar whether or not the honeycomb is to blame for the bulkhead fail.

   If we picture the bulkhead as a rectangle being subjected to edge loading effectively forcing it into a rhombus there will be diagonal shear loading from corner to corner, just like the example Zonker’s High Modulus graphic depicts, tension on one diagonal, compression on the other.

   Cut a hole in the shear web and it is compromised and the premature fail (compared to a continuous shear web) propagates from that hole - buckling on one diagonal, tearing on the other.

   But we do want to walk through this bulkhead so it has to be constructed to tolerate the loading. Tough to see from the picture if that break is a tensile tear or a buckling overlap but either way more localized diagonal strength is required to do the job.

   Any kind of core can be used to improve panel stiffness, this fail is not about panel stiffness.

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23 hours ago, Zonker said:

It's sort of caused by not laminating the two skins together around a cutout. You get big stress concentrations in cutouts like that.

 

18 hours ago, boardhead said:

     Bit of an abrupt response, sorry about that and not sure we want to get into some involved shear web analysis here but given that this topic is questioning the suitability of honeycomb as a core we should at least, based on our experience in composite structures, advise toolbar whether or not the honeycomb is to blame for the bulkhead fail.

Be careful in your assessment here. Honeycomb core has some unique characteristics that may be at play here. It is NOT the same as foam, because even though it behaves similarly at a macro scale, locally it doesn't. Specifically, it supports the skins intermittently. This is not problematic within a panel as the honeycomb is scaled relative to the skin thickness to ensure that local skin buckling across the unsupported diameter is avoided. However, at a free edge this is not the case, and an optimally scaled honeycomb/skin combination will always be vulnerable to skin failure at a cutout. This is why you should always avoid an open edge in a honeycomb-cored laminate.

So in summary, Zonker is right, you need to laminate the two skins together around any cutout, and preferably with a taper in the core, and Boardhead is right, that the skins would benefit from strengthening in the load direction around the corners. You can achieve both together by ensuring that the lamination that ties the skins together also provides the required reinforcement.

There are many reasons to run away from an old boat, but honeycomb should not be a reason in itself. However, whoever built or modified this boat clearly had a poor understanding of the materials they were using, so I would look very carefully at every detail.

Fortunately, all these problems can be fixed, the necessary skills can be easily learnt, it just takes time, or money, or both.......

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Update. 

As can be seen from my other refit questions, I bought the boat. 

I followed both Zonker's and Boardhead's advice - at least as much as I could. The wood trim was removed, the edge filled with thickened epoxy and then wrapped in carbon. Additionally some unidirectional across the corners. 

Paul 

DSC_3585.JPG

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On 7/15/2019 at 11:35 AM, Rasputin22 said:

I hate to hear that too Soma. I love Catana but have had really bad experiences on a motorcat ferry that used NidaCore extensively. Thankfully now NIDA-CORE has become 

NADA-MORE.

Not all Catanas are the same, not by a long shot...;-)

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What is it?  I dug around a bit and didn't find it.  Do you have pictures, or a link or the listing?   Just wondering if it is like the years long Lightwave refit that was in Seattle.

Quote: 

As can be seen from my other refit questions, I bought the boat. 

I followed both Zonker's and Boardhead's advice - at least as much as I could. The wood trim was removed, the edge filled with thickened epoxy and then wrapped in carbon. Additionally some unidirectional across the corners. 

Paul 

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@eric1207 the boat is a 48 foot custom build from a small german shipyard, that closed up shop years ago. It was built in the beginning of the 1990s with a focus on fast sailing and later retrofitted for comfortable cruising. Daggerboards were removed (trunks are still there) and LAR keels added. A fixed dodger/hard-top was added. Lot's of "comfort" stuff was added. With full tanks, a workshop in the bow that is better equipped than the one at my home, half an engine in spare parts, a genset, domestic-style radiators (and metal piping) for the heater, cruising gear and surprises (opens locker: "oh, great, there's another 50 spare meters of water hose/electrical cable/whatever here") she weights in at about 9 tons according the crane at my yard. I guess that there are quite a few kilos, that we can lose during the refit without without compromising comfort.

I don't know about the Lightwave refit in Seattle, but I simply don't have time for this to turn into a years long refit. :-)

When the bulkheads are fixed, what the boat really _needs_ before taking her offshore are IMHO a) replacement of some of the running rigging,  b) fixing of the port-rudder bearing,  c) some TLC for stuff like winches and d) new antifouling and e) a service for the saildrives. Everything else we _want_ is optional and if some things from my very long todo-list aren't ready when we want to go, then we will either finish them underway or simply pretend that we never intended to do them.

As it is winter here now, I am currently only working on cosmetic stuff to update the 1980's style interior. When the weather gets better next year, we will start working on the cockpit and sail-handling stuff. We want to go sailing in the summer.

Paul

crane.jpg

IMG_0724 (1).JPG

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Thanks for the details Toolbar.  Its always fun for dreamers to see a variety of boats.  Maybe someday I'll move up.  If you feel inclined, I think most would love to see more shots of the exterior and interior.  Good luck with the project

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~9 T for a 48 cruising cat with junk spares aboard is not too bad.

Lagoon 400 (actually 38.5' / 11.7m the lying bastards) is 10.88 when totally empty....

 

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On 12/11/2019 at 10:03 AM, toolbar said:

Update. 

As can be seen from my other refit questions, I bought the boat. 

I followed both Zonker's and Boardhead's advice - at least as much as I could. The wood trim was removed, the edge filled with thickened epoxy and then wrapped in carbon. Additionally some unidirectional across the corners. 

Paul 

DSC_3585.JPG

I would have stayed away from carbon, the additional flexibility of uni glass would do the job at less expense, allow you to visually ensure it is fully wetted out and be plenty strong weight for weight as the (rather short) patches you used will shear off the surface before the (uni) filaments fail.

Anyway - nice job and good effort, I hope it holds up. If not put longer glass band aids across the corners.

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