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Santa Cruz 70 - Fleet Roll Call

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19 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

What is it about a high performance modern design that makes that impractical? The string drop system on the kites? What is the dark art about sailing one of these that makes it inaccessible to an experienced/talented amateur?

I'll submit to you an excerpt recently written up by a current Pac52 owner and you can tell me whether you see an amateur crew stacking up in this fleet.

We decide to add one more mast shim to increase rig tension. We need to tweak the shape of the mainsail, so we move the mast butt 2 mm and start sailing again. Now we need to shorten the headstay length a bit, which means we need to lengthen the jib head strop so we can still get the halyard on the jib lock. When everyone is happy, we hook up with [another TP52] to check our performance. The boat is sailing upwind at 9.6 kts. Too fast. We move the jib car to 4 degrees and point the bow up, increase the runner tension to 15,000 pounds and increase the deflector to 100% and get the speed back to our optimum VMG of 9.2 kts while pointing much higher. Now we are ready to start the first race.

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36 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

I’d love to have an engineer’s take.  I’ll bet $3 that mast jack, forestay and runner loads dwarf those on the IOR50’s.

I would agree on mast jack and shroud loads. The loads are big enough that you really need to measure things in pounds of tension rather than turns or millimeters since a couple of millimeters makes a big difference. Runners would be interesting; the runner loads on the big IOR boats were very substantial indeed. However, those are not the kinds of loads that make a boat easy or difficult to sail around the cans or offshore.

The TP52s are going so fast downwind it seems unlikely that either the spinnaker sheet or tack line would be as loaded as the afterguy on a big IOR boat going downwind in 25 knots. They can more or less throw the main across in a heavy air gybe because the apparent wind is relatively low. Try that in a two tonner. 

Nobody is arguing that a bunch of old hacks picked up in the bar are going to win MedCup. But a bunch of hacks wouldn't have been likely to win SORC either. I was under the impression that folks are saying you simply cannot get a modern high performance yacht around the course without a paid crew. If that is true, I am curious why. I am not buying it.

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46 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

I’d love to have an engineer’s take.  I’ll bet $3 that mast jack, forestay and runner loads dwarf those on the IOR50’s.

You may be correct.  I guess I should have prefaced it with one surfs and one digs a hole.  That's more of the loads I was thinking about.  About 30yrs ago I remember mast jacks and hydraulic backstay gauges.  Cant remember the numbers but do remember very high backstay, runner and baby stay loads upwind with big genoa and s-ton of rail meat.  I don't remember anyone having load cells like we see in use today.  

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13 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Nobody is arguing that a bunch of old hacks picked up in the bar are going to win MedCup. But a bunch of hacks wouldn't have been likely to win SORC either. I was under the impression that folks are saying you simply cannot get a modern high performance yacht around the course without a paid crew. If that is true, I am curious why. I am not buying it.

I would also guess that many of the "amateurs" from the competitive boats in the IOR days would be considered pros in this day and age

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The line between paid and not paid is not the same as experienced and inexperienced. You can put together a mixed pro and amature  crew that will be able to handle a TP52 just fine. We did on Destroyer for 2019 and ended up winning class in Cabo and 3rd in Division 1 in Transpac. We had six amatures and 4 professionals. We are running a mixed program as well on Fast Exit II for 2021 as well.

The loads are lower on a TP52 when everything is flowing and in the groove. But, they can go through the richter scale in an instant. It's not just about tonnage. You have to consider how much righting moment and sail carrying ability. So, while yes the loads on the old IOR Maxi's and 12M were some of the highest loads I've ever had to deal with for extended periods. The loads on a TP52 driving into the back of a wave at over 25 knots can get pretty spectacular as well.

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12 minutes ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

The line between paid and not paid is not the same as experienced and inexperienced. You can put together a mixed pro and amature  crew that will be able to handle a TP52 just fine.

Thanks! This explanation makes much more sense. Curious what role the 4 pros filled?

If I hopped on one of these I wouldn't have any idea how to link the pedestals together to get the direct drive for the string drop so it makes sense to have someone who knows that. The electronics packages are sufficiently complex these days it probably makes sense to have someone who does that as a full time job if you hope to have the numbers calibrated. Probably a full time boat captain to oversee maintenance, transportation, logistics and much else. Bow guy maybe?

Does the sommelier need to be a pro? We have a lot of guys around here who think they can be a sommelier just because they live near wine country.

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2 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

I’d love to have an engineer’s take.  I’ll bet $3 that mast jack, forestay and runner loads dwarf those on the IOR50’s.

Because with the boatbuilding technology available in the IOR50 days, you would snap the boat in half if you tried to put loads like that on mast jacks or runners. Or you'd design a boat that was so heavy it wouldn't be competitive. And then you'd try to put that load into the boat and you'd start snapping lines. So you beef the lines up and you'd have to beef the sails up because now you're blowing up jibs because they're the weak link. And the boat takes longer to accelerate because it's so heavy so you have to put a larger keel on it to catch the flow of water, which slows you down.

I just described the opposite of what happened in the development of IOR50s to TP52. The technology just wasn't there to think this kind of way. You couldn't have designed a TP52 back in 1985 (let alone one that would sail faster than an IOR 2 Tonner), because it couldn't physically be done.

9 minutes ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

So, while yes the loads on the old IOR Maxi's and 12M were some of the highest loads I've ever had to deal with for extended periods. 

The loads on a 12M are very much a factor of hydrodynamic drag rather than loads being induced into the boat to unlock performance. You load up a 12M in response to it speeding up. On a TP52 you add load to make it speed up.

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6 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Thanks! This explanation makes much more sense. Curious what role the 4 pros filled?

If I hopped on one of these I wouldn't have any idea how to link the pedestals together to get the direct drive for the string drop so it makes sense to have someone who knows that. The electronics packages are sufficiently complex these days it probably makes sense to have someone who does that as a full time job if you hope to have the numbers calibrated. Probably a full time boat captain to oversee maintenance, transportation, logistics and much else. Bow guy maybe?

 Does the sommelier need to be a pro? We have a lot of guys around here who think they can be a sommelier just because they live near wine country.

Probably: Bowguy, Trimmers/Watch Captains (X2), Boat Captain.

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13 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Thanks! This explanation makes much more sense. Curious what role the 4 pros filled?

If I hopped on one of these I wouldn't have any idea how to link the pedestals together to get the direct drive for the string drop so it makes sense to have someone who knows that. The electronics packages are sufficiently complex these days it probably makes sense to have someone who does that as a full time job if you hope to have the numbers calibrated. Probably a full time boat captain to oversee maintenance, transportation, logistics and much else. Bow guy maybe?

Does the sommelier need to be a pro? We have a lot of guys around here who think they can be a sommelier just because they live near wine country.

On Destroyer we had Bruce Cooper as Main Trimmer, Doug McClean as Boat Captain and Pit, Jib Kelly Navigator and Systems expert and Jay Crum as Tactics and driver for the pros. 

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On 1/7/2021 at 7:28 AM, Carrera said:

I'll submit to you an excerpt recently written up by a current Pac52 owner and you can tell me whether you see an amateur crew stacking up in this fleet.

We decide to add one more mast shim to increase rig tension. We need to tweak the shape of the mainsail, so we move the mast butt 2 mm and start sailing again. Now we need to shorten the headstay length a bit, which means we need to lengthen the jib head strop so we can still get the halyard on the jib lock. When everyone is happy, we hook up with [another TP52] to check our performance. The boat is sailing upwind at 9.6 kts. Too fast. We move the jib car to 4 degrees and point the bow up, increase the runner tension to 15,000 pounds and increase the deflector to 100% and get the speed back to our optimum VMG of 9.2 kts while pointing much higher. Now we are ready to start the first race.

Back in the day when USYRU and "amateur" sailors were the rule, nobody thought that the driver on an IOR Maxi who won the Saint Fancy Big Boat Series and who showed up on Monday Morning in a brand spanking new BMW 635i with personalized plates was an amateur was immediately sent to Alcatraz.

Now that the "salary caps" are off it is back to the days of the J-Boats.

Not to say that the TP-52s aren't the equivalent of 2000's J-Boats, just saying the boats and hardware were unlimited, but the 'horsepower' and intellectual property onboard were 'amateurs'.

 

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