Sign in to follow this  
SlackWater_SF

pics: TF10, 2019 Vallejo Race

Recommended Posts

 

Saturday

47782858801_561b9f5f36_c.jpgIMG_6172_DxO

 

33905880358_6a32576056_c.jpgIMG_6177_DxO 

40816751683_9fc30399dd_c.jpgIMG_6201_DxO 

47782925961_9bb3aa8137_c.jpgIMG_6207_DxO 

 

Sunday

47738246582_86ca203cd5_b.jpgIMG_6868_DxO

32847036867_d02b279481_b.jpgIMG_6876_DxO

32847004717_4ceb031667_b.jpgIMG_6880_DxO

 

 

 

2019 Vallejo Race, mostly monohulls in the Flickr Galleries, 

Saturday May 4th, Flickr gallery = https://flic.kr/s/aHsmc9QbZB

Sunday May 5th, Flickr gallery = https://flic.kr/s/aHsmB2hRix

 


 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great to see these boats in motion... I spotted them in the parking lot of the recent sail/power show ... it was one of the highlights of the show to walk over and administer a *serious* eye-balling to two of these boats. It was difficult to adhere to look-don't-touch, and I probably owe somebody an apology for the puddles of drool. :p

Randii 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Love the bench seats.  Lazy man's trapeze.  Good pics, thanks for posting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't it just frost your petunias to buy one and then find out you can't enter offshore races in San Francisco because the rules require lifelines tied to the pulpit?  http://norcalorc.org/   which says in part related to trimarans, ... "...a lifeline must run from the top of a bow pulpit to the forward crossbeam at the outboard edge of the bow net or foredeck."

Coasties and the YRA around here just don't like multihulls.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, multihuler said:

IMG_0993.JPG

IMG_0995.JPG

Is that an optical delusion? Or the foil really as big as looks?  Almost 1/2 the beam of the boat. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Wouldn't it just frost your petunias to buy one and then find out you can't enter offshore races in San Francisco because the rules require lifelines tied to the pulpit?  http://norcalorc.org/   which says in part related to trimarans, ... "...a lifeline must run from the top of a bow pulpit to the forward crossbeam at the outboard edge of the bow net or foredeck."

Coasties and the YRA around here just don't like multihulls.  

a few of the TF10 have pulpits , Mad Max is going to Australia where they are required

IMG_7457.JPG

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are they fast? What kind of numbers are we looking at here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tony Considine said:

a few of the TF10 have pulpits , Mad Max is going to Australia where they are required

IMG_7457.JPG

Hi Tony, nice photo (nice boat!). I thought I read somewhere that you had pulled out on the TF10 due to problems with insurance? Anyway it will be great when she gets here and mixes with the local fleet. I’m sure a lot of people on this forum would like to hear some of your thoughts on this weapon now that it’s obviously up and going. Cheers, Gerald.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure would and how about when the wife takes a walk up to that pulpit to get a snapshot of hubby flying his weapon clad in the inevitable crash helmet and Batman suit, does the whole flying circus take a bow and chuck everybody in the drink?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, he b gb said:

Hi Tony, nice photo (nice boat!). I thought I read somewhere that you had pulled out on the TF10 due to problems with insurance? Anyway it will be great when she gets here and mixes with the local fleet. I’m sure a lot of people on this forum would like to hear some of your thoughts on this weapon now that it’s obviously up and going. Cheers, Gerald.

Hi Gerald

It took a while to get insurance which we now have that for all TF10s so we're looking forward to getting our boat to Australia by the end of June. We spent 3 days a month ago test sailing in Lelystad which was great, we were very happy with boats performance but it's very early days for us as far as foiling is concerned and there's a big learning curve ahead. I've just got back from watching the SailGP event in San Francisco and when you see world class sailors get it wrong at times, you start to appreciate the complexity of foiling. 

We raced the old Mad Max , a Grainger 10M cat for many years which is now Ullman Sails and we were looking for a new challenge and felt that foiling was becoming more mainstream and we'd like to give it a try. We looked around the world for something that was easily trailable as we race all around Australia and was designed from scratch to foil and we ended up choosing the TF10 which is beautifully built by Holland Composites. 

Our boat has a full Sailmon system installed which will record all aspects of our actual performance so in 12 months or so, we will be in a position to be able to quote real performance numbers. From our limited experience, I can say the boat is fast and has great potential but it will take time for us to learn how to foil consistently. 

regards

Tony

here's a link to YouTube 

 

 

867408308_UllmanSailsAirleiBeach.thumb.jpg.9ab1823c6a3275c53f49d3282c5f0345.jpg

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tony Considine said:

Hi Gerald

It took a while to get insurance which we now have that for all TF10s so we're looking forward to getting our boat to Australia by the end of June. We spent 3 days a month ago test sailing in Lelystad which was great, we were very happy with boats performance but it's very early days for us as far as foiling is concerned and there's a big learning curve ahead. I've just got back from watching the SailGP event in San Francisco and when you see world class sailors get it wrong at times, you start to appreciate the complexity of foiling. 

We raced the old Mad Max , a Grainger 10M cat for many years which is now Ullman Sails and we were looking for a new challenge and felt that foiling was becoming more mainstream and we'd like to give it a try. We looked around the world for something that was easily trailable as we race all around Australia and was designed from scratch to foil and we ended up choosing the TF10 which is beautifully built by Holland Composites. 

Our boat has a full Sailmon system installed which will record all aspects of our actual performance so in 12 months or so, we will be in a position to be able to quote real performance numbers. From our limited experience, I can say the boat is fast and has great potential but it will take time for us to learn how to foil consistently. 

regards

Tony

here's a link to YouTube 

 

 

867408308_UllmanSailsAirleiBeach.thumb.jpg.9ab1823c6a3275c53f49d3282c5f0345.jpg

 

 

 

I checked out the YouTube vids, pure unadulterated boat porn :wub:  thanks heaps for that and please keep it coming! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 9:57 PM, boardhead said:

Are they fast? What kind of numbers are we looking at here?

My experience last year in Newport was quite pleasant, we sailed in 5 kn TWS up to about 14 TWS over a few days.

Upwind in light was up to 9 knots BS, tacking through 90. Upwind in heavier, was 13 kn BS plus depending on where you put the bow, also tacking through 90. In short, it goes as fast or faster than a TP52 uphill.

Downhill in light stuff, say 8-10 knots BS in 5-6, gybing through 120. As the breeze came up, we happily trucked along at 23++, gybing through 90-100 degrees. You can take big bites down in the puffs. The AWA moves around a fair bit and the trick seemed to be to steer to that and keep the BS in a reasonable band, long enough to retrim the foils at least if that's what's required.

Our wave state was from zippo to up to about 4 feet when we went outdoors for a few hours, all happy and calm up on foils. Having come from lighter more "reactive" boats I was pleasantly surprised at the landings. It was more akin to riding a public transit bus that riding an irate Bull with an elastic strapped around its testicles.

The design brief as I recall was "gentlemen's foiler". In my estimation it totally hit the mark on that front. Build quality was also very nice.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/21/2020 at 6:05 AM, sail(plane) said:

So how is the boat and fleet going? Havent seen any news in a while

it seemed to flop.... i believe owners are unhappy... others here know more but it is not what was promised in the brochure 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've looked for YouTube videos and there are almost no owner videos, only DNA promotionals , and nothing in the las 11 months. Strange. How many were built?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

it seemed to flop.... i believe owners are unhappy... others here know more but it is not what was promised in the brochure 

Oh bummer! It's damn hard to pull off.

At that size, the forces are significant and the dynamics treacherous. And then high part costs when something breaks.

I wouldn't want to drive it without key folks having some moth or acat experience. The gentleman owner and his best friends, as pictured in the original brief don't typically have it. Then what? call pros, risk life, wallet and limb, it just sail it timidly.

It's a gorgeous boat, and I'd love to sail it. Don't get me wrong. But it's hard to picture a happy owner who doesn't already have a moth or an acat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, sail(plane) said:

I've looked for YouTube videos and there are almost no owner videos, only DNA promotionals , and nothing in the las 11 months. Strange. How many were built?

I know of 4 ... 3 on the east coast US and 1 for Australia but there may be more. 
I'm not sure the one down under is still here... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

 

I wouldn't want to drive it without key folks having some moth or acat experience. The gentleman owner and his best friends, as pictured in the original brief don't typically have it. Then what? call pros, risk life, wallet and limb, it just sail it timidly.

Some of those pros are posting in this thread!  It's a $600k racing boat, I doubt the owners expected anything else.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, eastern motors said:

Some of those pros are posting in this thread!  It's a $600k racing boat, I doubt the owners expected anything else.

I agree. But the original brief I understood to be for a skilled but non-pro owner-driver. A non-bitey foiler.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

I agree. But the original brief I understood to be for a skilled but non-pro owner-driver. A non-bitey foiler.

Didn't the NYYC plan to develop a TF10 class to replace their monohull (swan?) fleet?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, josh_bartoszuk1 said:

4 on east coast total, two in Bristol/Portsmouth, 1 in Newport, 1 never moved out of winter mode in FL... One in SF and one in Oz. Subtract one from Bristol/Portsmouth after snapping both starboard beams this fall..

IMG-4851.jpg

IMG-4852.jpg

IMG-4853.jpg

just heard the West Coast boat has beams breaking as well (from a very reliable source)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/27/2020 at 9:46 PM, josh_bartoszuk1 said:

4 on east coast total, two in Bristol/Portsmouth, 1 in Newport, 1 never moved out of winter mode in FL... One in SF and one in Oz. Subtract one from Bristol/Portsmouth after snapping both starboard beams this fall..

IMG-4851.jpg

IMG-4852.jpg

IMG-4853.jpg

 

13 hours ago, REW said:

just heard the West Coast boat has beams breaking as well (from a very reliable source)

 

10 hours ago, josh_bartoszuk1 said:

I was sailing on the boat at the time. Just finished zipping around prudence island, sailing upwind in displacement mode back to the dock and suddenly just heard two gunshots, looked to leeward and the hull was basically folding under the tramp. Was a great day until then though hit 29.8 foiling upwind. 

Wow.  M&M design and DNA build if I recall correctly.  Would not have expected this from them.  Lawyers anyone?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Russell Brown said:

What do you expect, 30 knots upwind and bulletproof? Go sue yourself.

Gentleman's foiler or folly?  Well Russell assuming the reports above are accurate, I don't expect 2 of 4 (or 5 I think) boats designed and built from folks with the pedigree of M&M and DNA to suffer the same catastrophic failure (of beams). With respect if you are OK with that remind me to never buy a boat you designed or built. :wacko:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't you just hate it when the designers or builders get it wrong?  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Wess said:

Gentleman's foiler or folly?  Well Russell assuming the reports above are accurate, I don't expect 2 of 4 (or 5 I think) boats designed and built from folks with the pedigree of M&M and DNA to suffer the same catastrophic failure (of beams). With respect if you are OK with that remind me to never buy a boat you designed or built. :wacko:

No chance of me selling you a boat.

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kinda funny that you - or any designer/builder - would be OK with a ~ 50% failure rate but hey fine.  Learned something about you.  God I love this place. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Wess said:

Kinda funny that you - or any designer/builder - would be OK with a ~ 50% failure rate but hey fine.  Learned something about you.  God I love this place. 

Failure rate to finish due to gear or personal injury over last 8 Vendee Globes is 53%. That’s a lot of great builders and designers to whine about...then again I guess they kind of accept the odds of pushing the boats as hard as they do and take their chances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, fufkin said:

Failure rate to finish due to gear or personal injury over last 8 Vendee Globes is 53%. That’s a lot of great builders and designers to whine about...then again I guess they kind of accept the odds of pushing the boats as hard as they do and take their chances.

the same goes with the big foiling trimarans, there are a lot of structural failures, but to make your point we would need to discount all the UFO hits, which are a lot. 

Then again, 30 kt upwind is kind of extreme, so maybe Russell has a point that this boat is at the cutting edge of things even for DNA+ M&M. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've owned a few bleeding edge boats. Mostly Int 14s, but also a Multi-23

Every one of them broke in some fashion in the course of normal sailing on SF Bay. I never once blamed the designer or manufacturer, as, well, we beat the shit out of boats here. 

 

That, and @bhyde was with me or around me a couple times, so there's that.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

Wow..... I'm pretty sure DNA are not talking.... I wonder how many owners returned their boat...?

Pretty sure the Australian one was returned.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

watching the few promotional videos, the foiling appears stable in pitch, but not in heel. The boat seems to constantly flop onto one float or the other WHILE STILL FOILING. Is this a consequence of inexperienced crew getting trained, or what?  you would think in a promotional video you would show your best moments

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's one thing for "one off" race boats designed to be the fastest possible to push the limit up to structural failure but you would expect a production boat like this aimed at "enthusiasts" to have a little bit more safety factor...
It's also one thing for some "stuff" to break on high end race boats but that is a major structural failure that is actually pretty rare these days. Even "extreme" designs like AC45, GC32 didn't suffer any failures of that magnitude (and there have been more built and they are raced "balls to wall" by teams of pros) so beams braking off is definitely not something that should be expected on a project like this, especially given the people involved!

That's definitely a major fuckup, I suspect there is some arguing going between the designer and builder's respective lawyers right now (with the owner's lawyers circling around)... Seems unlikely for this thing to recover at this point...

 Such a shame that such a cool project is only going to end up making a bunch of lawyers rich! 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Airwick said:

It's one thing for "one off" race boats designed to be the fastest possible to push the limit up to structural failure but you would expect a production boat like this aimed at "enthusiasts" to have a little bit more safety factor...
It's also one thing for some "stuff" to break on high end race boats but that is a major structural failure that is actually pretty rare these days. Even "extreme" designs like AC45, GC32 didn't suffer any failures of that magnitude (and there have been more built and they are raced "balls to wall" by teams of pros) so beams braking off is definitely not something that should be expected on a project like this, especially given the people involved!

That's definitely a major fuckup, I suspect there is some arguing going between the designer and builder's respective lawyers right now (with the owner's lawyers circling around)... Seems unlikely for this thing to recover at this point...

 Such a shame that such a cool project is only going to end up making a bunch of lawyers rich! 

It is not their (lawyers) fault that the engineers and/or builders didn't get it right. We have to earn a living too...:P;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I've owned a few bleeding edge boats. Mostly Int 14s, but also a Multi-23

Every one of them broke in some fashion in the course of normal sailing on SF Bay. I never once blamed the designer or manufacturer, as, well, we beat the shit out of boats here. 

 

That, and @bhyde was with me or around me a couple times, so there's that.

Man, we fucked that Multi-23 up. Mast, rudder, dignity. Who would have thought dropping a boat off a huge wave would break it. But I think we all know the key to a quality sailing experience is air time.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Airwick said:

It's one thing for "one off" race boats designed to be the fastest possible to push the limit up to structural failure but you would expect a production boat like this aimed at "enthusiasts" to have a little bit more safety factor...
It's also one thing for some "stuff" to break on high end race boats but that is a major structural failure that is actually pretty rare these days. Even "extreme" designs like AC45, GC32 didn't suffer any failures of that magnitude (and there have been more built and they are raced "balls to wall" by teams of pros) so beams braking off is definitely not something that should be expected on a project like this, especially given the people involved!

That's definitely a major fuckup, I suspect there is some arguing going between the designer and builder's respective lawyers right now (with the owner's lawyers circling around)... Seems unlikely for this thing to recover at this point...

 Such a shame that such a cool project is only going to end up making a bunch of lawyers rich! 

it's the immediate run to "lawyer up" when something goes wrong that has ruined so may of the things that we once held dear. I have never so much as filed an insurance claim in all my life, something I hope to avoid for the rest of it. That shit fucks with all of us and makes what we love unaffordable. I can see returning the boats for new beams, but lawsuits mean more lawyers and less cool boats and that is not a good direction to be going. Seems like that should be obvious.

  • Like 3
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, josh_bartoszuk1 said:

M&M design sound. One boat broke a foil in SF last year, turns out both foils were full of cavities that the DNA guys decided it would be best to fill with bondo. Ultrasounds of the beams looked very similar apparently.

You are spilling some major beans here.... and i like it..... give us all the juicy bits, it's Anarchy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, bhyde said:

Man, we fucked that Multi-23 up. Mast, rudder, dignity. Who would have thought dropping a boat off a huge wave would break it. But I think we all know the key to a quality sailing experience is air time.

It’s ok, I think I destroyed the gantry of your Int 14 and just did the Mahalo fix in Hawaii. 
 

but yeah, a nice bit of air and 4 big boys all hiking out? Sweet!  Sure went from noisy to quiet in a hurry. I will say I look at the ferry drivers differently after that as the guy gave us a nice Lee for a bit. What did you say to him anyway? Those little Honda 2hps are pretty good, eh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi guys , clear that you all don't no much about the TF10 project .

It is not just a production boat . It is a ground breaking innovative concept not shown before .

Already designed in 2015....   Not any boat showed up on the water since  then  which is comparable.

So the good thing is that the owners of the first 5 boats are  not that nervous , as they understand the risks of being a pioneer .

If owners don't understand that then they should stay out of the foiling world .

 

 

The TF 10 is  (besides the Foiling A class)  the most fun boat I ever sailed .

Not comparable to anything else . super fast , super stable , super safe .

A real flying carpet were you can safely enjoy foiling with 4-6 persons onboard .

When sailed up to its potential  often faster and al lot less scary then a GC 32.

And off course things can break by exploring the bounderies .

For instance starting foiling upwind , and cranking a lot of  differential in the rudderfoils , sailing  in big breeze, with a reefed main bringing the SE down .... This results in higher speeds MM  and DNA held for possible .

 

See this  email of the initiator of the class and owner of the first TF 10 :

Van: Malcolm Gefter
Datum: dinsdag 1 december 2020
Aan: Ron O'Hanley, Stan Schreyer, "John J.Taylor III", Joey Mello, John, Jim Gibson, Guckinc
CC: Pete Melvin, Sven Erik Janssen, chad freitas, Rufus Van Gruisen
Onderwerp: Awareness of being a pioneer

 

Dear all,

Of course, I am disappointed about my boat breaking, BUT that's what happens to pioneers.

By comparison, look at the results of new foiling boats in the Vendee Globe The two top boats, are out with breakage (Hugo Boss and Charal)

These guys saved no expense and worked for four years with the best in the business.—

The second-place boat had to cut off a foil to avoid more damage to boat.

The third-place boat SANK-broke in half.

That's not good odds of designing a new boat that does not break!!!! I got almost four years before a break.

Enright's boat 11th Hour got two hours out if his new foil before it exploded!!!-

 

Hats off to Pete and Sven- in spite of the breakage, a pretty damn good job BY COMPARISON.

We fix and move on-We were the first with a trimaran foiler and the Imoca the first of its class.

 

--

Malcolm

 

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, josh_bartoszuk1 said:

M&M design sound. One boat broke a foil in SF last year, turns out both foils were full of cavities that the DNA guys decided it would be best to fill with bondo. Ultrasounds of the beams looked very similar apparently.

Wow.  Useful information.  Thanks for sharing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The TF10 is a production boat -its not comparable to the IMOCA 60s that tries to win VG. As a 33ft trimaran - it should not be that hard to calculate the forces - ref the pros that are invoved - but as some apply over - it can maybe be hard to make them according to a strict standard - for the price they get for that production? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't no what you are trying to say with your post ....

 

 

ref to the remark on the post before yours Apparently i ts normal to spread fake news in that country on the other side of the ocean ....

(In the meanwhile i received a apology mail from the guy  and his post is removed from the forum ) 

 

Anyway,

have a good new years  everybody 

and let's hope for a better sailing 2021

Rgds , Team DNA

 

 

 

 

_DSC2412-2_verkleind.png

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rich people have a different attitude about spending money just for fun.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, pieterjan said:

I don't no what you are trying to say with your post ....

 

Either the calculations was wrong - or it was something in the production that not was according to calculations. As this was production boats they must have put some security into the calculations - as the best pros out there. But then to build according to spec/price can be really hard - just to say its pioneers - is a little to easy - when boat are sold for how much each? How are you handling those breakages - insurance - guarantie - or the owners have to pay for it?   

 

I love the boats ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, SeaGul said:

Either the calculations was wrong - or it was something in the production that not was according to calculations.

Or there is something not accounted for because there is no history of experience (ie, being a pioneer).  Fatigue failure for example is difficult to account for without experience since you can't be sure what is transmitting vibration and where it is going before dampened to nothing.  Tough to make something stiff and ductile at the same time.   I'm not claiming this to be a fatigue failure, I'm just giving a for instance.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, pieterjan said:

I don't no what you are trying to say with your post ....

 

 

ref to the remark on the post before yours Apparently i ts normal to spread fake news in that country on the other side of the ocean ....

(In the meanwhile i received a apology mail from the guy  and his post is removed from the forum ) 

 

Anyway,

have a good new years  everybody 

and let's hope for a better sailing 2021

Rgds , Team DNA

 

 

 

 

_DSC2412-2_verkleind.png

FWIW, owners and builders have a way of going dark when boats break down.  Has lots to do with value, liability, reputation etc.  Pictures of broken beams aren't "fake news" as you put it.  One could argue that censoring info and removing it from public view is "fake".  Since DNA is clearly in the know it might be credible for you to discuss what caused the failures and what steps might be taken to mitigate.  Do beams need to be replaced to handle real world loads, or is some form of reinforcement contemplated?  It's your business so you certainly don't have to say anything, but the only way to control the "message" is to manage it and be proactive and truthful.  

Pretty clearly a rich guy's toy under any circumstance.  Would be cool to see a viable class racing together....but that ship may have sailed.


 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Or there is something not accounted for because there is no history of experience (ie, being a pioneer).  Fatigue failure for example is difficult to account for without experience since you can't be sure what is transmitting vibration and where it is going before dampened to nothing.  Tough to make something stiff and ductile at the same time.   I'm not claiming this to be a fatigue failure, I'm just giving a for instance.    

= "calculations" was wrong...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In large, relatively heavy fast foilers, calculating the forces in a pitchpole, or near pitchpole... I'm sure it's easy to get it wrong. You get it grossly wrong in the prototype, it breaks early, you learn early; that's easy to handle.

But then people get more comfortable with the boat over time, and push it harder, for longer periods of time. Tighten the rig further. Pack it heavier (breeze is up, load more beer! more friends!). Material fatigue might creep in. So you get a second wave of breakage.

Hobie Wave catamarans. Those are indestructible. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, pieterjan said:

Hi guys , clear that you all don't no much about the TF10 project .

It is not just a production boat . It is a ground breaking innovative concept not shown before .

Already designed in 2015....   Not any boat showed up on the water since  then  which is comparable.

So the good thing is that the owners of the first 5 boats are  not that nervous , as they understand the risks of being a pioneer .

If owners don't understand that then they should stay out of the foiling world .

 

 

The TF 10 is  (besides the Foiling A class)  the most fun boat I ever sailed .

Not comparable to anything else . super fast , super stable , super safe .

A real flying carpet were you can safely enjoy foiling with 4-6 persons onboard .

When sailed up to its potential  often faster and al lot less scary then a GC 32.

And off course things can break by exploring the bounderies .

For instance starting foiling upwind , and cranking a lot of  differential in the rudderfoils , sailing  in big breeze, with a reefed main bringing the SE down .... This results in higher speeds MM  and DNA held for possible .

 

See this  email of the initiator of the class and owner of the first TF 10 :

Van: Malcolm Gefter
Datum: dinsdag 1 december 2020
Aan: Ron O'Hanley, Stan Schreyer, "John J.Taylor III", Joey Mello, John, Jim Gibson, Guckinc
CC: Pete Melvin, Sven Erik Janssen, chad freitas, Rufus Van Gruisen
Onderwerp: Awareness of being a pioneer

 

Dear all,

Of course, I am disappointed about my boat breaking, BUT that's what happens to pioneers.

By comparison, look at the results of new foiling boats in the Vendee Globe The two top boats, are out with breakage (Hugo Boss and Charal)

These guys saved no expense and worked for four years with the best in the business.—

The second-place boat had to cut off a foil to avoid more damage to boat.

The third-place boat SANK-broke in half.

That's not good odds of designing a new boat that does not break!!!! I got almost four years before a break.

Enright's boat 11th Hour got two hours out if his new foil before it exploded!!!-

 

Hats off to Pete and Sven- in spite of the breakage, a pretty damn good job BY COMPARISON.

We fix and move on-We were the first with a trimaran foiler and the Imoca the first of its class.

 

--

Malcolm

 

 

 

Fair email from an owner that is willing to spend the money to get the boat he wants at the end of the day. Unfortunately, as others have said, this isn’t a one-off IMOCA or other foiling boat, and the ultrasounds done on the boats clearly indicate a manufacturing problem. I would say it’s up to the manufacturer to make it right, by building and installing new beams for the fleet. And yes, I realize this is no trivial feet as the beams are bonded into the amas and main hull, hence why getting the boats back to the factory and fixed properly is really the only good choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, martin 'hoff said:

In large, relatively heavy fast foilers, calculating the forces in a pitchpole, or near pitchpole... I'm sure it's easy to get it wrong. You get it grossly wrong in the prototype, it breaks early, you learn early; that's easy to handle.

But then people get more comfortable with the boat over time, and push it harder, for longer periods of time. Tighten the rig further. Pack it heavier (breeze is up, load more beer! more friends!). Material fatigue might creep in. So you get a second wave of breakage.

Hobie Wave catamarans. Those are indestructible. 

No one has pitchpole/capsized a TF10 AFAIK-those photos would be pretty public. Sounds like there were voids in the beam laminates in some pretty critical places, that when coupled with high upwind speeds achieved through running large amounts of rudder winglet differential resulted in beam failure. The proper solution is to build the beams properly, according to spec, replace the damaged beams and if necessary set a differential limit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, F18 Sailor said:

Fair email from an owner that is willing to spend the money to get the boat he wants at the end of the day. Unfortunately, as others have said, this isn’t a one-off IMOCA or other foiling boat, and the ultrasounds done on the boats clearly indicate a manufacturing problem. I would say it’s up to the manufacturer to make it right, by building and installing new beams for the fleet. And yes, I realize this is no trivial feet as the beams are bonded into the amas and main hull, hence why getting the boats back to the factory and fixed properly is really the only good choice.

 

23 minutes ago, F18 Sailor said:

No one has pitchpole/capsized a TF10 AFAIK-those photos would be pretty public. Sounds like there were voids in the beam laminates in some pretty critical places, that when coupled with high upwind speeds achieved through running large amounts of rudder winglet differential resulted in beam failure. The proper solution is to build the beams properly, according to spec, replace the damaged beams and if necessary set a differential limit.

The guy who mentioned ultrasounds of the beams has retracted that statement. Do you have a personal account of that being the case, or you can prove that there are voids present in the beams?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Tubes said:

 

The guy who mentioned ultrasounds of the beams has retracted that statement. Do you have a personal account of that being the case, or you can prove that there are voids present in the beams?

No, I don’t have a personal account of that, and did not realize the statement was retracted. Question is, was it retracted because the lawyers got involved, or because it was inaccurate? 

For what it’s worth, I could inquire further but at the end of the day, it’s up to DNA to sort the issue out with their owners. Further, just so people are clear, I think DNA do about the best job out their in marine composites but they have had some failures in the past, and the boat shop is NOT the same as the Holland composites side (that build composite bridges and wind turbine components). I bring this up as I personally think most marine manufacturers should be held to a higher standard than they are.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tubes said:

 

The guy who mentioned ultrasounds of the beams has retracted that statement. Do you have a personal account of that being the case, or you can prove that there are voids present in the beams?

Did he retract it or just delete the post?  Posting something like that, especially under what looks like his real name, is likely to make the owner unhappy so deleting it is rational even if true.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, REW said:

FWIW, owners and builders have a way of going dark when boats break down.  Has lots to do with value, liability, reputation etc.  Pictures of broken beams aren't "fake news" as you put it.  One could argue that censoring info and removing it from public view is "fake".  Since DNA is clearly in the know it might be credible for you to discuss what caused the failures and what steps might be taken to mitigate.  Do beams need to be replaced to handle real world loads, or is some form of reinforcement contemplated?  It's your business so you certainly don't have to say anything, but the only way to control the "message" is to manage it and be proactive and truthful.  

Pretty clearly a rich guy's toy under any circumstance.  Would be cool to see a viable class racing together....but that ship may have sailed.


 

This.  A pretty darn reasonable post.  Less than impressed with the DNA comments.  Those pics are not fake news.  They are broken beams that DNA built no?

I am not trolling here, nor am I am DNA hater.  They have built many great boats.  But this... where there is smoke there is fire it seems.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right there with you @Wess, the DNA bluster doesn’t build confidence. I’d still look at them for an A cat, but this issue and the rumblings of Argo refusing DNA  built MOD70 foils has the standard French and Italian yards looking like the safer choice for bigger boat foiling. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

Hobie Wave catamarans. Those are indestructible. 

Tough to foil tho. :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this