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I have now seen letters on Sailing Anarchy’s front page from both sides of the keep it or chuck it argument. Of course I am talking about Laser, sorry the boat formerly known as Laser (apologies to Prince) Vs the Aero.

For a start, if classes like the Star and Finn, sailed by many of the world’s top sailors and with a history in the Olympics longer than your arm are not safe then what should give the laser any special considerations other than active and effective lobbying within World Sailing.

The Olympic Games funds, I am led to believe, around 70% of the running costs of our governing body. That same organisation, the IOC, expects sailing to be dynamic, modern, as close as possible gender equal oh, and from a television point of view, be exciting and as even as can be achieved – ie one design.

If reports are to be believed, at least one of the builders of the “one design” Laser Class have been building boats with NON DESIGN features. It would also appear that ILCA hasn’t really done anything constructive (except write a few letters to the offending builder)

I know they (the Laser) are provided equipment in the actual Games so all sailors are (in theory) sailing identical equipment but is that necessarily the case at their individual selection trials? I would suggest probably not.

ICLA is clearly in current disarray with at least one National Class Association having written an open letter to World Sailing concerned that the actions of the ICLA hierarchy does not fit within the constitution of the class.

When we race in a regatta, it is generally taken that the boat that finishes first wins.

I doubt if anyone could argue with that so I really don’t understand – if World Sailing really does listen to its sailors, including the ones selected to test the 3 or 4 classes being evaluated – how there could be any doubt whatsoever which class should be selected for 2024 or will the retention of the Laser for Paris join another of the growing list of decisions by World Sailing that appear to have more to do with politics than the long term good of our sport.

Our sport needs to move with the times as it often has. If it hadn’t the two handed dinghy would still be the Flying Dutchman and not the 49er, there would be no windsurfing and certainly no kitesurfing (we all make mistakes) but to keep the Laser while ditching the Finn would just prove how out of touch World Sailing were with their constituents by leaving no equipment for the sailor of above average build to be competitive in the event that provides them (World Sailing) with the bulk of their operating funds.

It may sound like I am a fan of the RS Aero but that is not actually the case, I have never even sailed one. I am however a firm believer in due process, and if someone or something wins/gets the highest score/the most votes/ they should get the result. Any other decision is more anarchical than this website. - SS.

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The trouble is the scores are so mixed. The Laser scored higher than the Aero as a boat, but the Aero scored higher on build, admin, availability etc. By the time the next Olympic cycle starts the whatever-the-Laser-is-called may well have sorted out many of the factors that caused it to be scored low, and a rescore would have the opposite result. So if you are voting do you go with the 'better' boat, and trust the CA and new builders will get their **** together, or do you go with the scores as they are?

I'm damn glad I don't have to make that decsiion and don't envy those who do.

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Based on the US legal system taking 6 years to get at least a few answers to the previous legal dispute between the builders and the associations, its hard to see how once the lawyers get started again, the present dispute will have any result by the time of the 2024 Olympics. So how can WS have any confidence that anyone will be able to build and sell Lasers to the Paris Olympic committee without getting mixed up in the dispute or at least getting blocked by legal obstacles. So its inevitable that the Laser will be replaced.

What its replaced with will have more to do with the lobbying of vested interests rather than the relative merits of a few contenders. Based on previous decisions the deals between different factions is more likely to end up with a hybrid compromise which satisfies few and astounds many. With still strong lobbying for the Star, Finn, Match Race, Overnight Race and the gender balance IOC requirements, we are most likely to get an over night match race using Stars sailed by a mixed gender crew comprising people selected nationally in Finns (M) and Europes (F). 

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The author's argument is fatally flawed. He says that World Sailing should listen to the sailors and therefore choose the Aero - but the MNA sailors were the ones who gave the Laser the top score for "athletic suitability" AND "performance" and said that it was "all around well suited for selection."  It is completely contradictory to say "listen to the sailors" and then ignore the fact that the sailors ranked the Laser on top. The Laser's lower scores came from the non-sailors on the panel.

It can also be said that being a top sailor has nothing to do with knowing what boat is practical, just as a top sailing administrator may not know how to make a boat sail fast. They are different issues requiring different skill sets; a national class president's skills, for example, have little to do with the skills a national champion needs.

The author is saying that the sport should progress, and that "progress" means moving to a boat that is about the same speed as the Finn, vastly slower than a modern boat like a Waszp, and with no basic design advances over some 1960s Moths.  He is also complaining about the 1950s Finn being dumped while saying that the 1970s Laser is too old and therefore should get dumped. How is it "progress" to advocate for the dumping of a newer boat while maligning the dumping of the oldest?

In saying that the Laser deserves no special consideration, the author has managed to ignore the fact that it is by far the most popular and widespread boat in the world, that it is by far the most popular and widespread boat amongst Olympic contenders, and that these are vital factors in a sport that struggles to fulful the IOC's Universality Criteria.

Finally, it's bizarre that someone who talks of observing "due process" can come to anything like a conclusion about alleged rule breaches from reading a couple of inconclusive documents released by one side to the dispute and said to be misleading by the other side. To be frank, if the author is a sailing judge it is a deep concern that he or she will put any weight on that sort of material - to do so is a very, very clear breach of the basic ideals of natural justice and procedural fairness.

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29 minutes ago, Curious said:

The author's argument is fatally flawed. He says that World Sailing should listen to the sailors and therefore choose the Aero - but the MNA sailors were the ones who gave the Laser the top score for "athletic suitability" AND "performance" and said that it was "all around well suited for selection."  It is completely contradictory to say "listen to the sailors" and then ignore the fact that the sailors ranked the Laser on top. The Laser's lower scores came from the non-sailors on the panel.

It can also be said that being a top sailor has nothing to do with knowing what boat is practical, just as a top sailing administrator may not know how to make a boat sail fast. They are different issues requiring different skill sets; a national class president's skills, for example, have little to do with the skills a national champion needs.

The author is saying that the sport should progress, and that "progress" means moving to a boat that is about the same speed as the Finn, vastly slower than a modern boat like a Waszp, and with no basic design advances over some 1960s Moths.  He is also complaining about the 1950s Finn being dumped while saying that the 1970s Laser is too old and therefore should get dumped. How is it "progress" to advocate for the dumping of a newer boat while maligning the dumping of the oldest?

In saying that the Laser deserves no special consideration, the author has managed to ignore the fact that it is by far the most popular and widespread boat in the world, that it is by far the most popular and widespread boat amongst Olympic contenders, and that these are vital factors in a sport that struggles to fulful the IOC's Universality Criteria.

Finally, it's bizarre that someone who talks of observing "due process" can come to anything like a conclusion about alleged rule breaches from reading a couple of inconclusive documents released by one side to the dispute and said to be misleading by the other side. To be frank, if the author is a sailing judge it is a deep concern that he or she will put any weight on that sort of material - to do so is a very, very clear breach of the basic ideals of natural justice and procedural fairness.

Did you actually read the piece? Anyway it served its purpose if more people get involved in the discussion.

I actually didn't say any boat should be dumped, I said the winner should win. If ISAF (sorry World Sailing is just a marketing exercise) set a bunch of parameters across a number of factors and a boat came top, it came top. Don't blame me, blame the scoring system.

I am curious how Curious could think that the variations in supposed one design or the apparent frictions within a class could make it a healthy choice for one of our sport's most visible events.

I have read from a number of sources that the RS Aero outscored (using ISAF's parameters) the Laser and - assuming those sources are accurate - then that is where it should end.

Of course it wont as impassioned posts like the above simply prove that point. 

"by far the most popular and widespread boat amongst Olympic contenders" is a meaningless statement and a hell of an assumption. If you want to compete as a singlehander in the Olympics it is currently your only choice (radial for females and standard for males) that doesn't mean it is "popular" - sailors have no choice, it is the only choice for the lighter sailor who wishes to be an "Olympic contender".

Or maybe I am just getting too old :-)

What will be will be.

SS

 

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28 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Did you actually read the piece? Anyway it served its purpose if more people get involved in the discussion.

 

I actually didn't say any boat should be dumped, I said the winner should win. If ISAF (sorry World Sailing is just a marketing exercise) set a bunch of parameters across a number of factors and a boat came top, it came top. Don't blame me, blame the scoring system.  It was an "evaluation "  not a competition. No one is blaming you or the scoring system. Various elements were used to evaluate the boats. Those elements were scored to provide guidance to the voters on the merits and demerits of the various boats.  It was clear from the scores that two boats are suitable. The difference between the two boats will depend on whether you think the sailing characteristics or the logistics are more important.  If you had read the report you would have realized that adding the scores in different ways with different weights would give you different results....it provides guidance and insight ....it recommended two boats.....it did NOT declare a winner.

  You talked a lot about due process in your article without (apparently) studying or reading what the process was. The "winner" will be decided by a voting process.   As you say, the winner will win. If you dont like the result, don't blame World sailing, blame the democratic process ;) 

 

I am curious how Curious could think that the variations in supposed one design or the apparent frictions within a class could make it a healthy choice for one of our sport's most visible events.

I have read from a number of sources that the RS Aero outscored (using ISAF's parameters) the Laser and - assuming those sources are accurate - then that is where it should end.    It was apparent from your piece that you did not take the time to read the report and this confirms it.   
 

Of course it wont as impassioned posts like the above simply prove that point. 

"by far the most popular and widespread boat amongst Olympic contenders" is a meaningless statement and a hell of an assumption. If you want to compete as a singlehander in the Olympics it is currently your only choice (radial for females and standard for males) that doesn't mean it is "popular" - sailors have no choice, it is the only choice for the lighter sailor who wishes to be an "Olympic contender".

I think you are missing his point entirely.  Factually, it is the most popular and widespread racing boat in the world, independent of its Olympic status. It is popular among hundred, nay thousands, of sailors who have absolutely zero aspirations of going to the Olympics. It is present in many hundreds of sailing clubs around the world. It is unique among the Olympic classes in that it demands perfection and athleticism from the Olympic sailors but it is an everyday class sailed by thousands of people outside of Olympic programs. Do they race Nacra 17s, International 470s or 49ers at your local club on a Wednesday evening? That is his point and it is a fair one.  I am old enough to remember the jubilation in sailing clubs when the Laser was selected.....finally an Olympic class that represented the grass roots of sailing

Or maybe I am just getting too old :-)

We both are

What will be will be.

Indeed. It will be decided by a vote. Whatever the outcome you can be sure that it will be criticized.

SS

 

I have read and agreed with many of SS's pieces before.  I certainly enjoy his contributions. I hope he will forgive me for criticizing his current FP contribution as uninformed and poorly researched.

This was the first stage in a selection process. It was the evaluation stage.

The Laser outscored the RS Aero in some categories. The RS Aero outscored the Laser in other categories (and clearly the commercial shit storm affected the scoring). The evaluators recommended two classes, the Laser and the RS Aero. They did NOT declare a winner.

The next step in the process will be the WS council deciding which factors are more important; sailing characteristics, logistics and supply, universality etc etc.  Based on that, they will vote and determine a winner and that is where it will end.

RS is clearly leagues ahead of the dysfunctional Laser manufacturing consortium in terms of marketing prowess, logistical supply skills and overall management maturity. That will count for a lot.

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5 hours ago, Editor said:

 I am however a firm believer in due process, and if someone or something wins/gets the most votes/ they should get the result. Any other decision is more anarchical than this website. - SS.

The voting is still to come. 

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SS:

 

Instead of depending on your sources who told you there was a winner, here is the exact wording of the conclusion of the evaluation from the evaluation panel:

"The evaluation concluded that there are two suitable items of equipment for the event: The RS Aero equipment presented by RS Sailing and the Laser equipment presented by ILCA."

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13 minutes ago, IPLore said:

I have read and agreed with many of SS's pieces before.  I certainly enjoy his contributions. I hope he will forgive me for criticizing his current FP contribution as uninformed and poorly researched.

This was the first stage in a selection process. It was the evaluation stage.

The Laser outscored the RS Aero in some categories. The RS Aero outscored the Laser in other categories (and clearly the commercial shit storm affected the scoring). The evaluators recommended two classes, the Laser and the RS Aero. They did NOT declare a winner.

The next step in the process will be the WS council deciding which factors are more important; sailing characteristics, logistics and supply, universality etc etc.  Based on that, they will vote and determine a winner and that is where it will end.

RS is clearly leagues ahead of the dysfunctional Laser manufacturing consortium in terms of marketing prowess, logistical supply skills and overall management maturity. That will count for a lot.

Plus one. Great click bait @shanghaisailor.  Beyond that... :blink:

But hey, I clicked and learned a bit about what not to click on anymore!

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50 minutes ago, IPLore said:

SS:

 

Instead of depending on your sources who told you there was a winner, here is the exact wording of the conclusion of the evaluation from the evaluation panel:

"The evaluation concluded that there are two suitable items of equipment for the event: The RS Aero equipment presented by RS Sailing and the Laser equipment presented by ILCA."

Except, that sentence is saying that two of the four boats met the standard to be a Olympic class, but it's still true that the evaluation scored the Aero higher and therefore won the trials... the two aren't mutually exclusive. 

I agree with the critique above, however, and SS piece does seem to omit how the scoring was made up which contradicts some of the points made.

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

The voting is still to come. 

 

53 minutes ago, Wess said:

Plus one. Great click bait @shanghaisailor.  Beyond that... :blink:

But hey, I clicked and learned a bit about what not to click on anymore!

 

1 minute ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Except, that sentence is saying that two of the four boats met the standard to be a Olympic class, but it's still true that the evaluation scored the Aero higher and therefore won the trials... the two aren't mutually exclusive. 

I agree with the critique above, however, and SS piece does seem to omit how the scoring was made up which contradicts some of the points made.

I'm not too big to admit an error (far from it).

Apologies guys, I was clearly mis-informed. That's a couple of source crossed off the "Trust me" list. Back to the good old fashioned only from the source instead of 2nd hand news.

Whether RS gets the gig or not, it is perhaps good for ICLA to realise they are not the only kid on the block. 

ICLA needs to get their act together though for the benefit of their members, One builder that they have not been able to access to inspect and another builder reportedly building the boat to other than standard and one design specifications - that's if I can trust these other two sources.

Perhaps I should stick to where I have "from the horses mouth" information like SailGP or similar.

Once again, huge helping of humble pie, we all get caught out by bullshit eventually.

For the record, I am not a shareholder of, or employee of RS Sailing, in fact I don't think I have ever even sailed one of their boats.

Just checked - and Nope!

SS

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Finally - another thread on this topic....

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It's a great academic argument, discussing boat types, and the policies of WS and the IOC....but a decision away from the incumbent will inevitably exclude smaller nations.

In a small jurisdiction, every time there is an equipment change the incremental cost change is prohibitive rather than marginal - it's simply not possible to replace fleets. Given a smaller local Olympic Association, a smaller MNA and a correspondingly smaller population and business community from where to secure funding, the bulk of the expense falls on the shoulders on the athlete.

I would imagine that this concern is felt across the Caribbean and other small jurisdictions - Olympics and other major events are no longer attainable, realistic goals and sailing reverts to being elitist and a sport for the wealthy. Is that what we want?

 

 

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22 minutes ago, TwoRockKnock said:

It's a great academic argument, discussing boat types, and the policies of WS and the IOC....but a decision away from the incumbent will inevitably exclude smaller nations.

In a small jurisdiction, every time there is an equipment change the incremental cost change is prohibitive rather than marginal - it's simply not possible to replace fleets. Given a smaller local Olympic Association, a smaller MNA and a correspondingly smaller population and business community from where to secure funding, the bulk of the expense falls on the shoulders on the athlete.

I would imagine that this concern is felt across the Caribbean and other small jurisdictions - Olympics and other major events are no longer attainable, realistic goals and sailing reverts to being elitist and a sport for the wealthy. Is that what we want?

 

 

I would never class myself as wealthy and yet I have owned more boats than is healthy. My first boat cost me just GBP250, a real fixer upper but gave me hours of fun. Since then I have owned around a dozen boats and like many owners, I am sure, I gave up other 'life pleasures' to participate in my life long "addiction".  

It depends on one's aspirations in sport, do you do it as a relaxing (that's a joke if you are a racer)alternative to the daily or weekly grind or want to be the next Sir Ben or Sir Russell?

Once again the focus falls on Olympic sailing, and in any sport, Olympic aspirations are not cheap I will grant that but surely our sport is AND SHOULD BE much more than just the Olympics.

As Jim Kilroy, owner of a succession of mighty fine offshore race boats responded when it was suggested that you had to be rich to go sailing (and I paraphrase) "On this boat there is one rich guy, me and 22 ordinary guys, without whom I could not go sailing".

My own last race was a 250 miler just a few weeks ago on a Cookson 50 ( I doubt if I could afford a new set of sails for her). Yes our sport, especially as the boat size rises needs people of wealth but they in turn need those less financially well endowed.

Having said the above, I do agree with TwoRockKnock that sailing is difficult for sailors in less developed nations whether that development is measured as the overall but it is just as challenging for youngsters from the less well off areas of more wealthy countries. 

If one considers the level of development to be that of the development of our sport then I do live in such a country as in China sailing is still in its relative infancy, certainly beyond the provincial and Olympic teams and sailing is very much the poor relative to other sports where China has a much longer Olympic history with much greater medal success and like many countries the level of state support for a sport depends on the realistic chances of a haul of Olympic medals

I do not intend to take away from TwoRockKnock's post at all, it will always be difficult for developing nations sailors to be funded, whichever the class of boat and a class change only adds to the cost. It is a difficult balance, allowing more developing nations in to the club or encouraging the existing members to play more. In China they would say the needs of the whole are more important than those of the individual (again paraphrased) but not everyone would agree with that. 

We should remember, we are fortunate, those of us who can indulge ourselves in our sport at whatever level that is, and in fact whatever that sport is - there are those in this world who have to spend their entire life just surviving. 

Not simple!

SS

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, bill4 said:

Finally - another thread on this topic....

perfect haha

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I think I've been pretty open that I see both side of this argument.

 

I struggle with boats like Optis and Lasers that are so old.  I don't know many other sports that use old equipment.
I acknowledge, most sports don't have equipment that is the mainstay of the sport - and that cost $5-10k (compared to a new cutting edge tennis racket at $200).

That said, I fail to see how having the most modern and technically interesting boats at the absolute peak of the sport, is bad.
If we all just say, hey, we need to have the oldest equipment so it's cheapest... that's valid for community sailing or local regattas, no question.

But, at the Olympics?  Are we really going to argue that even small member nations can't spend $20k to get two new Aeros for their top sailor?  That's like 2 months of coaching fees and RIB Charters in Europe.

Is that REALLY the argument?  Seems rather silly to me.
This is supposed to be the pinnacle of the sport - not a walk in the park.  It's supposed to be hard.  People who want Gold Medals will transition from 470s to NACRA 15s, or FXs..
It's not like the boat type really gets in the way - people adapt.

 

So, the Laser/ILCA Dinghy are awesome boats.  So if the Finn, or the Starr, or whatever.
But, this isn't about that.  It's about the pinnacle of our sport and having a technically advanced, challenging boat to sail that pushes the sport forward.
It's hard for me to see, as much as I love the Laser, how that boat still does that compared to modern boats.  Obviously, the Evaluation Committee agreed with that.

If the Aero is chosen, in 20 years, it will be time for another boat to replace it.  Seriously - it's not that scary or complicated.  Progress happens. Old classes might stick around, but, I'm not sure having the oldest classes in the Olympics is the best look for our sport anymore.

 

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It might be helpful to have a summary of what the Evaluation Committee liked and disliked about the two boats so that the discussion is factual:

592250612_SummaryofEvaluation.thumb.PNG.d96bd51bb5fa5709ccbcd9073e32535e.PNG

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19 minutes ago, WestCoast said:

I think I've been pretty open that I see both side of this argument.

 

I struggle with boats like Optis and Lasers that are so old.  I don't know many other sports that use old equipment.
I acknowledge, most sports don't have equipment that is the mainstay of the sport - and that cost $5-10k (compared to a new cutting edge tennis racket at $200).

That said, I fail to see how having the most modern and technically interesting boats at the absolute peak of the sport, is bad.
If we all just say, hey, we need to have the oldest equipment so it's cheapest... that's valid for community sailing or local regattas, no question.

But, at the Olympics?  Are we really going to argue that even small member nations can't spend $20k to get two new Aeros for their top sailor?  That's like 2 months of coaching fees and RIB Charters in Europe.

Is that REALLY the argument?  Seems rather silly to me.
This is supposed to be the pinnacle of the sport - not a walk in the park.  It's supposed to be hard.  People who want Gold Medals will transition from 470s to NACRA 15s, or FXs..
It's not like the boat type really gets in the way - people adapt.

 

So, the Laser/ILCA Dinghy are awesome boats.  So if the Finn, or the Starr, or whatever.
But, this isn't about that.  It's about the pinnacle of our sport and having a technically advanced, challenging boat to sail that pushes the sport forward.
It's hard for me to see, as much as I love the Laser, how that boat still does that compared to modern boats.  Obviously, the Evaluation Committee agreed with that.

If the Aero is chosen, in 20 years, it will be time for another boat to replace it.  Seriously - it's not that scary or complicated.  Progress happens. Old classes might stick around, but, I'm not sure having the oldest classes in the Olympics is the best look for our sport anymore.

 

Westcoast...while I agree that on the surface continuing to perpetuate Optis is crazy, but they have an installed base of boats and people that is probably more important than equipment for the purpose Optis serve.

As to the Olympics  – the evaluation ranked the Laser as the superior boat – so picking the Aero would not be an improvement in equipment (it might be an improvement in all the headaches associated with getting the equipment).

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What is quite clear is that the issues with the infighting between the consortium of builders of the Laser has quite clearly impacted the outlook for the Laser.

Quotes like

Quote

 

"However, challenges and issues with distribution remain unresolved in many nations affecting many items of equipment and not only hulls"

"Challenges with distribution remain unresolved" 

"cooperation with all builders remains a challenge" 

"a long history of variations among different builders"

"The class representatives have acknowledged challenges regarding warranty and supply issues ...and have communicated to the panel that with the current market situation they remained unable to resolve this."

"Issues regarding supply of equipment to some areas of the world remain unresolved."

 

dragged down the score of the Laser in areas such as Access to equipment, Universality, and most of all in Quality.

At the end of the day, this is why the RS weighted score was ahead of the Laser

 

 

RS is plain and simply a better run , more unified business than the Laser consortium (who have spent that last 4 or 5 years fighting and suing each other).  Even though the Laser was voted a better boat in terms of design and performance, ultimately the quality of the underlying business supporting the class is important. The Laser became an Olympic Class because Ian Bruce and Laser made it a universally popular class. It may be that the aero becomes the next class because RS is better at their jobs than the folks at Laser Performance.

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It is  ironic because if it were me, I would argue that the Laser is better at its job in the Olympics than the 470. The 470 class must be supremely thankful that the Laser is under the spotlight.

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Much mention is made above of voting and process while the very same writers use the terms generated by the renegade vigilantes who have been officers of the International Laser Class Association. 

There has been no process BEGUN to change the Constitution and Rules of the International Laser Class Association. 

The Laser Class is a game played in BRAND NAME toys using BRAND NAME replacement parts and sails. Nothing whatsoever has been done to change that EXCEPT....

Some officers of the International Laser Class Association have begun a process to quit allowing Laser brand boats built by a company called Laser Performance, built after a certain yet to be made public date, to be used by competitors in BRAND NAME Laser contests. 

 The real mess:

The International Laser Class Association Constitution and Rules describe the mission of that association as having to do with brznd name Lasers and specifically prohibit non brand name Lasers from participation. 

The plan to refuse all future Laser Performance toys  effectively terminated the supply of eligible equipment and leave competitors no source of new boats or replacement  sails and parts.

Certainly the sane members of the sailing community are looking for solutions that do not include the follies of the International Laser Class Association 

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Good grief two threads on this already and the same endless rant in all of them and the LPE one too.  I heard you the first 100 times.  Everyone did. 

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4 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

 

 

I'm not too big to admit an error (far from it).

Apologies guys, I was clearly mis-informed. That's a couple of source crossed off the "Trust me" list. Back to the good old fashioned only from the source instead of 2nd hand news.

Whether RS gets the gig or not, it is perhaps good for ICLA to realise they are not the only kid on the block. 

ICLA needs to get their act together though for the benefit of their members, One builder that they have not been able to access to inspect and another builder reportedly building the boat to other than standard and one design specifications - that's if I can trust these other two sources.

Perhaps I should stick to where I have "from the horses mouth" information like SailGP or similar.

Once again, huge helping of humble pie, we all get caught out by bullshit eventually.

For the record, I am not a shareholder of, or employee of RS Sailing, in fact I don't think I have ever even sailed one of their boats.

Just checked - and Nope!

SS

Have they changed their name AGAIN?

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1 hour ago, WestCoast said:

I struggle with boats like Optis and Lasers that are so old.  I don't know many other sports that use old equipment.
I acknowledge, most sports don't have equipment that is the mainstay of the sport - and that cost $5-10k (compared to a new cutting edge tennis racket at $200).

 

 

I'm pretty sure baseball bats are still made out of wood and the mitts are still leather.

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Good grief two threads on this already and the same endless rant in all of them and the LPE one too.  I heard you the first 100 times.  Everyone did. 

Really?? Then why is ANYONE proceeding as if the renegade vigilantism is acceptable?? 

I have been advocating for the removal of our Brand Name mission and rules for almost two decades.  There is a process available to do just that.

Currently there is absolutely no way for anyone to use the position or assets of the International  Laser Class Association to do anything having to do with non Brand Name toys.

It is mighty hard to make LP look like the good guys, but the renegade vigilantes are certainly doing a lot to destroy the credibility of the Association. 

 

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1 hour ago, KC375 said:

But, at the Olympics?  Are we really going to argue that even small member nations can't spend $20k to get two new Aeros for their top sailor?  That's like 2 months of coaching fees and RIB Charters in Europe.

That's actually a very simplistic view and, of course, misses the point. How and where does the top sailor train and compete? How do we attract youngsters into a pathway where the (perceived) pinnacle uses equipment that is unavailable to them? What happens to the installed user base?

The flippancy with which you say "that's like two months of ....fees..." demonstrates exactly why the argument is much more than just the merits of one boat over another and why you have a less than zero understanding of how this would affect a smaller nation.

2 hours ago, WestCoast said:

If the Aero is chosen, in 20 years, it will be time for another boat to replace it.  Seriously - it's not that scary or complicated.  Progress happens. Old classes might stick around, but, I'm not sure having the oldest classes in the Olympics is the best look for our sport anymore.

Then we relegate smaller nations to also rans - it may not be complicated but it simply isn't sustainable. And let's be honest, Olympic sailing itself isn't a good look for our sport, and to the casual observer, the boat is irrelevant.  

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50 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Really?? Then why is ANYONE proceeding as if the renegade vigilantism is acceptable?? 

I have been advocating for the removal of our Brand Name mission and rules for almost two decades.  There is a process available to do just that.

Currently there is absolutely no way for anyone to use the position or assets of the International  Laser Class Association to do anything having to do with non Brand Name toys.

It is mighty hard to make LP look like the good guys, but the renegade vigilantes are certainly doing a lot to destroy the credibility of the Association. 

 

Oh brother.  DISAGREE.  Ever wonder if this comes across like a 2 year having a meltdown demanding her toy NOW!!!!  Ever wonder if maybe the endlessly repeated rants turn people off to the point that they don't hear the valid points?

Scream when they implement something without a vote.  They ain't done that.

Go cuddle a stuffed bunny and calm down already.

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Nothing like telling the voice of reason to shut up 

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57 minutes ago, TwoRockKnock said:

That's actually a very simplistic view and, of course, misses the point. How and where does the top sailor train and compete? How do we attract youngsters into a pathway where the (perceived) pinnacle uses equipment that is unavailable to them? What happens to the installed user base?

The flippancy with which you say "that's like two months of ....fees..." demonstrates exactly why the argument is much more than just the merits of one boat over another and why you have a less than zero understanding of how this would affect a smaller nation.

Then we relegate smaller nations to also rans - it may not be complicated but it simply isn't sustainable. And let's be honest, Olympic sailing itself isn't a good look for our sport, and to the casual observer, the boat is irrelevant.  

exactly! the Olympics are about democratizing sports and having a place for small nations to be able to compete on even terms with everyone else. it's not a tech show. Small nations have invested a lot of time and resources into the laser and asking them to restart for a boat that's only slightly better seems like you're just relegating them into the back of the fleet or into non-competition overall.

Because it's new, and because it 'moves the sport forward' (in whose view??) doesn't seem like a good enough reason. As I said previously, perhaps in another thread, the Laser and Radial are the only two classes in the olympics currently that seem to bring a large, diverse fleet with sailors from small nations being actually competitive (Pavlos was the first Cypriot to win any olympic medal) and if half the fleet is forced out due to equipment change then sailing itself may be on the chopping block for Olympic participation.

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That ^^^^ is a wonderful fantasy. 

The Olympics are about money, nationalism, money, egos of the winners, money, distracting society from the abuses of governments, money, entertainment, money and money 

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22 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

That ^^^^ is a wonderful fantasy. 

thank you! love to get a compliment

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If anyone from World Sailing read some of the ongoing nonsense dribble from a few  here you would probably hear a big sigh and a very loud WTF

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Sailing to me is more like racquet sports, and comparing the Aero and the Laser is like comparing squash and racketball. While racquetball is great, it is the newer sport. Squash has many times the number of players and certainly in racquetball's formative years it was far more prestigious to win a major event in squash than in racquetball.

It has always been a shame that a one person trapeze boat like the Contender or Musto have not been an Olympic class. In the future, a foiling boat like the Wasp may be considered - but why as a replacement? Sailing these different boats, at least in my mind, are different events.

So when I compare the Aero with the ILCA Dinghy / Laser, I less think of it as a contest of equipment, rather as two different events. Kind of like replacing the 1500 metres with the mile.

This is less about a simple equipment replacement as to me, it is far deeper. It is also about the prestige of the class. The difficulty to become the best in the world. I can recognize the best 10 Laser or Finn and even some OK dinghy sailors, but Aero? While I'm sure that would change if the Aero became an Olympic class, in my view it is too early.

I'm not opposed to changing classes within Olympic sailing, just opposed to changing them regularly.

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12 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

 

I am curious how Curious could think that the variations in supposed one design or the apparent frictions within a class could make it a healthy choice for one of our sport's most visible events.

 

There has been no evidence at all that there are significant variations. All we know is

1- that there has been an allegation from one party in a commercial dispute that there are variations, and;

2- an investigation was commenced; and

3- the subject has NOT admitted the truth of the allegation.

We have NO proof that the allegations are true. We have not seen a report of the completed investigation. We have not see the other party's side of the story. We have not seen any documents that could prove the allegations are true. All we know is that as far as can be seen, ILCA has done what ILCA should have done according to the dictates of natural justice and procedural fairness.

Imagine if the wider society just assumed that allegations from one interested party must be true, as many have done in this issue. There would be no assumption of innocence. Merely being charged by the police would lead to a conviction. Any protest in a sailing race must result in the other side's disqualification. Any protest committee who did not DSQ the protestee would be insulted on sailing forums.

Imagine if you were in a similar situation. Someone says, for example, that you cheated with your boat's measurements. The protest committee writes to you and tells you of the allegations, which is what they must do under the precepts of natural justice. You do not admit that you cheated. You then explain to the PC, perhaps, that the protestee's facts were wrong, or that their belief about the rules were wrong, or that the rule gave you the option to set the boat up as you did.

Imagine if the protestee released nothing more than part of their protest and part of the PC's correspondence, and based on that alone posters on the world's largest website branded you a cheat and the PC incompetents or worse. Would you like that?  Would you be happy if there were headlines that named you a cheater and said that you should not be allowed into major events?

The basic question in all this is, why not give people the protection of the presumption of innocence?

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

That ^^^^ is a wonderful fantasy. 

The Olympics are about money, nationalism, money, egos of the winners, money, distracting society from the abuses of governments, money, entertainment, money and money 

Completely correct Gouvernail.

The Olympics are a huge shit-show and certainly NOT the pinnacle of sailing. Many of the world's top sailors are not there. Back in the day it was harder for Rodney Pattison to qualify for GBR in the FD Class than win the Gold, Ben Ainslie beat off two other world top 10 Finn sailors to win his 4th Gold medal and that was BEFORE he was even selected for Team GBR.

Many countries funding depend on the chance of medals. That is certainly the case in GBR and CHN and some countries (south of the equator) didn't even send representatives in certain classes to Rio in 2016 because of a low chance of medals (and they HAD qualified to be there).

How can this be described as an important event for our sport? Oh yes, nearly forgot World Sailing has their hand in the IOC pocket.

Imagine if the 'spend' on sailing for the Olympics was used elsewhere! The marina in Qingdao for the 2008 regatta cost USD420 Million, that's 1 million per competitor. What could that have done for sailing if spent elsewhere?

Sure the Olympics give a focus for (some) people to aim for but it is only every 4 years so what about those born at the wrong time and are not at the correct place on their development curve (individual development curve not national).

And are the Olympics really representative of the sailors of the world? If you don't like sailing one of those classes tough shit. I know (personally) one sailor who turned down the chance of an Olympic berth because it wasn't her kind of sailing. She had already filled the runner up spot in a national ladies keelboat championship so clearly not just a wannabe, more of a didn't wannabe and I am sure she is not unique.

Of course they have launched many sailing careers but there are so many ways to excel or just simply enjoy our sport.

Wouldn't it be nice if those "other ways" got a little more attention from World Sailing.

I would be a hypocrite if I said I didn't enjoy watching the Olympic Sailing but I enjoy all forms of coverage of the pinnacles of our sport.

We are NOT track & field, gymnastics, weightlifting, swimming, diving, fencing, or any of the multitude of sports where an Olympic Gold Medal is our Everest - we are sailing where the likes of the Volvo, the America's Cup or Vendee Globe or even a Finn Gold Cup (and probably others) carry just as much weight in our sport.

You could be the second best sailor in the world in a particular class and never go to the Olympics if the best came from the same MNA yet in track & field you could have 2 of your fellow countrymen racing against you in the final eg 100m and the USA.

Indeed Gouvernail, the Olympics are a long way from Pierre de Coubertain's original concept. They are now about money, money, money!

Democratising sailing? I don't think so. For many MNAs the Non-Olympic classes and sailors are second class citizens.

Anyway, where did I put my tin hat?

See ya on the water

SS

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Obviously, Olympic sailing facilities have gone on to be well used everywhere from Enoshima to Kingston. Therefore I'm not going to blame World Sailing for utterly untransparent spending on the Qingdao marina. As I understand it, it was WS's insistence that a sailing regatta requires helicopters that made the proposed new marina for 2020 at Odaiba unviable due to Haneda's airspace. So there you go, WS is promoting the recycling of Olympic sailing facilities! 

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14 hours ago, IPLore said:

It is  ironic because if it were me, I would argue that the Laser is better at its job in the Olympics than the 470. The 470 class must be supremely thankful that the Laser is under the spotlight.

The 470 has been under exactly the same review, but AIUI no credible alternative was offered up. 

There's an interesting dilemma here for world sailing in that if the higher performance dinghies represent a form of sailing that people no longer want to do, should they be In the Olympics? If you add up all the people worldwide sailing boats equivalent/comparable to Nacra/49ers/470 what sort of percentage of the sailing population does that work out at?

I'm quite sure that it's significantly lower than it was 15 or 20 years ago.

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6 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

 The marina in Qingdao for the 2008 regatta cost USD420 Million, that's 1 million per competitor. What could that have done for sailing if spent elsewhere?

Absolutely nothing, because it wouldn't have been spent on sailing.

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15 hours ago, KC375 said:

I agree that on the surface continuing to perpetuate Optis is crazy,

I don't know what part of the Northern Hemisphere you live on mate, but where I live, the kids themselves decided to stay with the opti. Why? because the water is 14°C in winter time and they spend four hours in it during saturday's practice. They almost froze when they got the OpenBics for trials...

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, JimC said:

Absolutely nothing, because it wouldn't have been spent on sailing.

Cynical, possibly correct elsewhere but T.I.C. (This is China) You'd be amazed at some of the things they have spent money on in a effort to develop water leisure here. 

I have been here almost 19 years, all of that time helping to develop our sport and they STILL surprise me.

Last weekend I was on the water judging a regatta on the Yangtse River. Sponsored to provide PR for a new cruise ship terminal. They shipped in 8 keelboats and 20 windsurfers, built temporary docking (not easy given a tidal range even at neaps of 3.5m) officials from everywhere and a total of 12 races were run over the weekend. Drones in the air and worthwhile prize money.

I know that aim was to promote the terminal but as a spin off we got another regatta. Not huge crowds with only a few hundred watching but it all helps.

Only one small example of that is being done across the country.

Watch this space, there are further developments that I am under an NDA on but China DOES spend money on our sport and not just at the Olympian level.

NB All of the above is fact NOR opinion 

Cheers

SS

 

Edited by shanghaisailor
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13 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Completely correct Gouvernail.

The Olympics are a huge shit-show and certainly NOT the pinnacle of sailing. It simply is the pinnacle of small boat sailing. No other event demands such peak performance, dedication, physical preparation and athletic peak performance and is so hard to win.

ck in the day it was harder for Rodney Pattison to qualify for GBR in the FD Class than win the Gold,

That is one of the unique characteristics of the Olympics that makes it so hard to win.   Right now you can be one of the top 10 Laser sailor in the world with the ability to qualify for the medal race, but if you are Australian , then only 1 of the 3 of you is going to the Olympics.  It is not just the final regatta that makes this the Everest of small boat sailing but the arduous campaign to get there. There have been some lucky breaks in world championships in some dinghy class but every Olympic medalist has got there the hard way.

How can this be described as an important event for our sport?

How can it not be?

Imagine if the 'spend' on sailing for the Olympics was used elsewhere!    You can say the same for every extraordinary endeavor in sport.  Imagine if the "spend" on motor sports for Formula One was used elsewhere .  At least we got Kingston Olympic Harbor .....(I agree Atlanta was a complete flop in terms of a heritage for sailing. Although I am loyal to my home state, the sailing should never have been at Savannah. It was a missed opportunity to fund an incredible sailing facility in the South East  eg. Charleston or Jacksonville) 

Sure the Olympics give a focus for (some) people to aim for but it is only every 4 years so what about those born at the wrong time and are not at the correct place on their development curve (individual development curve not national).  Thats the whole point of the Olympics, the passion and the heartbreak.  Its far tougher on track and field athletes who often have shorter careers and peaks. But the bottom line for Olympians in all disciplines is that this is not for the flash in the pan one year wonder....an Olympic medal requires sustained excellence.

And are the Olympics really representative of the sailors of the world?  They should aim to be representative of the best sailor athletes in the world.  I agree that the Star reached its sell by date but it is a travesty that we do not have a smaller keelboat class in the Olympics so that those outstanding athletes and incredible talents that race small keel boats are not represented.

Of course they have launched many sailing careers but there are so many ways to excel or just simply enjoy our sport. Its not mutually exclusive. We can enjoy our sport and admire the amazing talent and determination of Olympians.

Wouldn't it be nice if those "other ways" got a little more attention from World Sailing.If you would like World sailing to manage your class and run your regattas.....be my guest!   Most would decline.

I would be a hypocrite if I said I didn't enjoy watching the Olympic Sailing but I enjoy all forms of coverage of the pinnacles of our sport.

We are NOT track & field, gymnastics, weightlifting, swimming, diving, fencing, or any of the multitude of sports where an Olympic Gold Medal is our Everest - we are sailing where the likes of the Volvo, the America's Cup or Vendee Globe or even a Finn Gold Cup (and probably others) carry just as much weight in our sport.    The Olympics IS the Everest.  Now I agree there are a multitude of peaks and the "Triple Crown" was for a while the Olympics, The Americas Cup and the Volvo.   But the Olympics will always be a jewel in the triple crown.....the Volvo and Vendee might be but their place is less assured.

You could be the second best sailor in the world in a particular class and never go to the Olympics if the best came from the same MNA yet in track & field you could have 2 of your fellow countrymen racing against you in the final eg 100m and the USA.  Yup. Its a tough road. Ask the Aussie Laser sailors......but then ask them if there is any dream that looms larger for them.

Indeed Gouvernail, the Olympics are a long way from Pierre de Coubertain's original concept. They are now about money, money, money!

No it is not!  Not for the athletes. You denigrate and diminish their efforts and sacrifices.

Democratising sailing? I don't think so. For many MNAs the Non-Olympic classes and sailors are second class citizens.  Nonsense.  At least nonsense in the USA .   If your MNA treats sailors as second class citizens then do something about it.

Anyway, where did I put my tin hat?

See ya on the water

SS

I feel bad that sailing in Asia is treated with such disrespect by its respective MNAs. From afar it looked like good things are happening in Asia (including China) .  But if it results in a bitter distaste for the Olympic dream, then sailing in the region will suffer in the longer term.  There is nothing quite like the Olympics and if Chinese and Asian sailors can rekindle the passion and admiration for their sailing athletes like they can for their diving and gymnastic athletes then the sport in your region will be stronger for it. 

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

That is one of the unique characteristics of the Olympics that makes it so hard to win.   Right now you can be one of the top 10 Laser sailor in the world with the ability to qualify for the medal race, but if you are Australian , then only 1 of the 3 of you is going to the Olympics.  It is not just the final regatta that makes this the Everest of small boat sailing but the arduous campaign to get there. There have been some lucky breaks in world championships in some dinghy class but every Olympic medalist has got there the hard way.

In a Laser world championship, that Australian sailor has to race against the other two Australians.  Plus multiple top sailors from several countries.  In my mind, that would make it a harder regatta than the Olympics.

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13 minutes ago, torrid said:

In a Laser world championship, that Australian sailor has to race against the other two Australians.  Plus multiple top sailors from several countries.  In my mind, that would make it a harder regatta than the Olympics.

But Torrid, to get that chance, the Aussie at the Olympics has to beat the other two to qualify. It does make it easier for the non Aussies to get a top 3 place though. :) 

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26 minutes ago, torrid said:

In a Laser world championship, that Australian sailor has to race against the other two Australians.  Plus multiple top sailors from several countries.  In my mind, that would make it a harder regatta than the Olympics.

as @Gantt said, they have to beat out those other two Aussies to qualify. It's much more challenging than the one week event at the culmination.

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Gantt and I agree for the first time in human history.......showing that we are all human after all.

Gantt and Dgm said it better than me.

Either Tom Burton, Matt Wearn, Luke Elliot (or Finn Alexander) are perfectly capable of beating each other in an individual regatta or medalling at a Worlds but to go to the Olympics will require succeeding in a sustained qualification process that is much more difficult that one regatta.  Frankly, the US would give our right hand to have any one of those sailors in our squad. 

I dont know why one of them wouldnt go and spend a couple of years gaining residency in the BVI in order to qualify.....but that is what makes the Olympics such an aspiration.....the dream is to represent your country at the Olympics.

Ultimately , there really is no other sailing event in the world where the role of representing your country is so much part of the dream

Certainly not the AC, Volvo or Vendee which is as much about(or more about) representing your team or sponsor or yourself than your country.

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On 5/15/2019 at 6:05 AM, TwoRockKnock said:

It's a great academic argument, discussing boat types, and the policies of WS and the IOC....but a decision away from the incumbent will inevitably exclude smaller nations.

In a small jurisdiction, every time there is an equipment change the incremental cost change is prohibitive rather than marginal - it's simply not possible to replace fleets. Given a smaller local Olympic Association, a smaller MNA and a correspondingly smaller population and business community from where to secure funding, the bulk of the expense falls on the shoulders on the athlete.

I would imagine that this concern is felt across the Caribbean and other small jurisdictions - Olympics and other major events are no longer attainable, realistic goals and sailing reverts to being elitist and a sport for the wealthy. Is that what we want?

 

 

I don't find Olympic sailing impacts our local scene much. We have a few great sailors that we rally behind and help fund, but the local scene continues on as it always has.

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I don't find Olympic sailing impacts our local scene much. We have a few great sailors that we rally behind and help fund, but the local scene continues on as it always has.

Same here. Ive put my hand in my pocket once or twice to contribute to an aspiring young Olympians fund raising campaign but Iv never felt the urge to contribute to the expenses of an AC sailor or a Volvo sailor.

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

Same here. Ive put my hand in my pocket once or twice to contribute to an aspiring young Olympians fund raising campaign but Iv never felt the urge to contribute to the expenses of an AC sailor or a Volvo sailor

I assume you are in the US? With the enormous resources of US Sailing, the USOC and the mere fact that aspiring Olympians have a much bigger pool from which to draw on for funding a seemingly innocuous change of equipment for a handful of Olympians is immaterial.

Now go do that in a small nation. The ramifications are significant.

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“Smaller countries ——— Olympics”

 

Do any of you  I actually believe the IOC has a set of goals which include making sure some tiny country wins sailing medals ??

Really?

Look!!!! A flying pig!!! 

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22 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

“Smaller countries ——— Olympics”

Do any of you  I actually believe the IOC has a set of goals which include making sure some tiny country wins sailing medals ??

Really?

Look!!!! A flying pig!!! 

To be fair, the recent Laser and Laser Radial Olympic fleets do appear have a fair number of representative from smaller nations... more so than in the more  expensive classes. Maybe they are not winning many medals but they are participating.

Transitioning to the RS Aero seems to be a major challenge to the smaller nations. I have seen numerous comments from many different sources  to that effect in the last week. There are even people in the USA who are freaking out about how to get from their current Laser youth programs into a future where the Olympic boats will be RS Aeros. I am not close enough to that scene to know these programs work, how frequently they buy new boats anyway etc. etc. to judge how serious the issues really are, or whether we are just seeing the normal human aversion to change something that seems to be working. What does seem obvious to me is that RS Sailing are going to have to be very creative to  support the transition, especially in the smaller nations. More urgently they are going to have to convince a lot of WS folk with votes this weekend that they can  manage a smooth transition. But if anybody can do it, RS Sailing can.

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3 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

“Smaller countries ——— Olympics”

 

Do any of you  I actually believe the IOC has a set of goals which include making sure some tiny country wins sailing medals ??

Really?

Look!!!! A flying pig!!! 

Define small. New Zealand has a population of 4,794,000.

Both Croatia and Slovenia have fewer people, and won medals in 2016.

Pavlos Kontides is from Cyprus is smaller still (less than 1 million?), yet won silver in 2012 in the Laser.

...though I agree with Gouv. Flying pigs indeed. Each Olympic cycle there is talk of moving to one of about 20 countries in the South Pacific to get to go. Don't know anyone who has.

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36 minutes ago, Gantt said:



...though I agree with Gouv. Flying pigs indeed. Each Olympic cycle there is talk of moving to one of about 20 countries in the South Pacific to get to go. Don't know anyone who has.

Cook Islands sailed in the last two Olympics - Laser Radial in 2012, Laser and Radial in 2016. Population is around 17,000 - although it is said that are more Cook Islanders in New Zealand than in the Cook Islands. 

How could we ever forget, "COK in the lead. Who's gonna catch the COK?"
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Iz1de7Lwyw

 

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"Sailing has experienced an overall 20% growth in participating countries from Toronto 2015. A record breaking 26 nations will be sending 168 athletes and 120 boats to compete in the 11 events at the Lima 2019 Games."

http://panamsailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Panam-Sailing-Press-Release-2019-May-15.pdf

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2 hours ago, VWAP said:

"Sailing has experienced an overall 20% growth in participating countries from Toronto 2015. A record breaking 26 nations will be sending 168 athletes and 120 boats to compete in the 11 events at the Lima 2019 Games."

http://panamsailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Panam-Sailing-Press-Release-2019-May-15.pdf

Bettcha more  of those are sailing Radials and Lasers than any other fleet 

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9 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Bettcha more  of those are sailing Radials and Lasers than any other fleet 

Correct!

Screen Shot 2019-05-17 at 11.46.45 AM.png

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11 hours ago, VWAP said:

VWAP  keeps sending us to view the thread where he repeatedly denied the fact LP supply problems were hurting our game.

I don’t understand his motivations 

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Equipment Committee does the right thing.

9 votes for RS Aero vs 3 votes for Laser.

Onward to the WS Council tomorrow when all the naysayers will be out in force.
 

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The price of an Aero quoted:

Quote

The price of the RS Aero is stated by the Evaluation panel to be £6041 the price of the Laser is in the range £4973 to £5516.

Source = https://www.sail-world.com/news/217591/World-Sailing-Committee-votes-for-RS-Aero?fbclid=IwAR20eG8sDeDwm_oCAlck7sTWlsHUESp-DPXOGpKjrhvCH5TVZ4u50PPA7_0

Aero list prices are:

  • United Kingdom UK£7190 (US$9,144) from www.rssailing.com
  • United States US$8900-US$9100 from www.zimsailing.com
  • New Zealand NZ$17,500 (US$11,415) from www.nzsailcraft.co.nz (Compares with Laser NZ$12,450 or US$8121, from Watershed)
  • Australia A$13,395 (US$9191) from www.thelifeaquatic.com.au

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On 5/15/2019 at 4:17 AM, Phil S said:

we are most likely to get an over night match race using Stars sailed by a mixed gender crew comprising people selected nationally in Finns (M) and Europes (F). 

Don't threaten me with a fun time!

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  On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 7:41 AM, shanghaisailor said:

THE DANGER OF THE SOUNDBITE - Statements can often be read completely wrong when taken out of context or dissected as IPlore has done.

I have responded after each his comments in a different colour to try and avoid confusion.

 

Completely correct Gouvernail.

The Olympics are a huge shit-show and certainly NOT the pinnacle of sailing. It simply is the pinnacle of small boat sailing. No other event demands such peak performance, dedication, physical preparation and athletic peak performance and is so hard to win. Ah so it is the pinnacle of one part of sailing. So it is more (to use the climbing analogy) a 3,000 foot cliff in Yosemite for the Free Climbers than Everest is for everyone else? (Watch the video Free Solo - it's awesome)

ck in the day it was harder for Rodney Pattison to qualify for GBR in the FD Class than win the Gold,

That is one of the unique characteristics of the Olympics that makes it so hard to win.   Right now you can be one of the top 10 Laser sailor in the world with the ability to qualify for the medal race, but if you are Australian , then only 1 of the 3 of you is going to the Olympics.  It is not just the final regatta that makes this the Everest of small boat sailing but the arduous campaign to get there. There have been some lucky breaks in world championships in some dinghy class but every Olympic medalist has got there the hard way. Maybe i'm thick but how can it be harder to win an Olympic medal at the Olympics Regatta when two sailors who might otherwise be alongside you on the medal race start line are watching on Livestream - your reference the Aussie Laser sailors or in Ben Ainslie's case the FInn Class - one of them even won gold the next Olympics (Giles Scott)

How can this be described as an important event for our sport?

How can it not be? Here we have a wonderful example of 5 words being taken completely out of context. An important event in sport, in my book is where the best of the best are on the start line. Imagine for a moment that Lewis Hamilton beats Bottas in qualifying but Mercedes are only allowed one car in the Formula 1 Grand Prix (In our sport equates to the Olympic Regatta) so Bottas watches the Grand Prix on telly. How long do you think motor racing would tolerate that? Exact comparison to Ben Ainslie beating Giles Scott in the GBR qualifying so Giles Scott stays at home instead of being alongside Ainslie on the start line - that's why the Olympic REgatta is less important than, for example the FInn Gold Cup - then (truly) the best of the best (in that class) are head to head.

Imagine if the 'spend' on sailing for the Olympics was used elsewhere!    You can say the same for every extraordinary endeavor in sport.  Imagine if the "spend" on motor sports for Formula One was used elsewhere .  At least we got Kingston Olympic Harbor .....(I agree Atlanta was a complete flop in terms of a heritage for sailing. Although I am loyal to my home state, the sailing should never have been at Savannah. It was a missed opportunity to fund an incredible sailing facility in the South East  eg. Charleston or Jacksonville) 

A very poor comparison indeed. The Olympic athlete is self funded (before you jump down my throat I know many self fund until they reach those "Olympian heights".) Then they are funded by (usually) the MNA or government funding. Motor Racing NEVER enjoys those sorts of funding perks and are, in a racers early career, self (or parentally) funded. Thereafter they are dependant on personal funds (wealth) or sponsorship or by a team. For example Lewis Hamilton was picked up by an F1 team while still a teenager.

Sure the Olympics give a focus for (some) people to aim for but it is only every 4 years so what about those born at the wrong time and are not at the correct place on their development curve (individual development curve not national).  Thats the whole point of the Olympics, the passion and the heartbreak.  Its far tougher on track and field athletes who often have shorter careers and peaks. But the bottom line for Olympians in all disciplines is that this is not for the flash in the pan one year wonder....an Olympic medal requires sustained excellence.

Your response bears no relation to the statement initially made - sorry.

And are the Olympics really representative of the sailors of the world?  They should aim to be representative of the best sailor athletes in the world.  I agree that the Star reached its sell by date but it is a travesty that we do not have a smaller keelboat class in the Olympics so that those outstanding athletes and incredible talents that race small keel boats are not represented.

Then if their aim is such how does that fit with the one sailor per class per MNA? That very process completely contradicts "should aim to be representative of the best sailor athletes in the world" multiple times the entry parameters DENY the opportunity of the "best sailor athletes" to become Olympians. For example If Giles Scott had been allowed to compete in Weymouth I doubt if you would have found a bookmaker who would have taken money AGAINST a GBR Gold/Silver

Of course they have launched many sailing careers but there are so many ways to excel or just simply enjoy our sport. Its not mutually exclusive. We can enjoy our sport and admire the amazing talent and determination of Olympians.  Did I say t was? 

Wouldn't it be nice if those "other ways" got a little more attention from World Sailing.If you would like World sailing to manage your class and run your regattas.....be my guest!   Most would decline. Again did I say that was what should happen. Don't pretend to take a contrary position to make your argument when the original statement was not what you imply. There are many other ways that a class or sailors can be given attention without a complete take over of class. FOr example the fact a class is recognised or given "International" status is an influence way less than WS running that class.

I would be a hypocrite if I said I didn't enjoy watching the Olympic Sailing but I enjoy all forms of coverage of the pinnacles of our sport.

We are NOT track & field, gymnastics, weightlifting, swimming, diving, fencing, or any of the multitude of sports where an Olympic Gold Medal is our Everest - we are sailing where the likes of the Volvo, the America's Cup or Vendee Globe or even a Finn Gold Cup (and probably others) carry just as much weight in our sport.    The Olympics IS the Everest.  Now I agree there are a multitude of peaks and the "Triple Crown" was for a while the Olympics, The Americas Cup and the Volvo.   But the Olympics will always be a jewel in the triple crown.....the Volvo and Vendee might be but their place is less assured. There are in effect multiple Everests depending on what part of the sport you participate in, call them the Himalayas if you wish but long distance solo sailors for example ( and I know a few quite well) have no interests in a Laser or whatever. Volvo crew is another area although there has been crossover there. For example Carolijn & Marie on Dongfeng but interestingly Marie won 4 World titles but missed the Olympic Gold in Rio with her partner (Didn't stop DFRT recruiting her). You are missing the point of what I wrote however, and I suggest you read it in its entirety instead of trying to chop it up to gain points. I think, for example if you read the line (which you didn't comment about) "I would be a hypocrite if I said I didn't enjoy watching the Olympic Sailing but I enjoy all forms of coverage of the pinnacles of our sport." note the word pinnacles, I dodn't say the Olympic Regatta was NOT one of them but to suggest it is out there on its own is flawed.

You could be the second best sailor in the world in a particular class and never go to the Olympics if the best came from the same MNA yet in track & field you could have 2 of your fellow countrymen racing against you in the final eg 100m and the USA.  Yup. Its a tough road. Ask the Aussie Laser sailors......but then ask them if there is any dream that looms larger for them. As I have mentioned elsewhere I know sailors that have turned down a chance of an Olympic campaign "because it is not their kind of sailing" One in particular has gone on to compete in multiple World Championships gaining a runner up spot on one occasion. No less competitive a class than any of the "5 Ringed Circus" classes. I for one wouldn't dare suggest to any of them it was any less so.

Indeed Gouvernail, the Olympics are a long way from Pierre de Coubertain's original concept. They are now about money, money, money!

No it is not!  Not for the athletes. You denigrate and diminish their efforts and sacrifices. You think that there are many sailors in ANY class that don't put in effort for their racing or do without things tor their sports? Even as a teenager, while I admired the like of Pattison & McDonald Smith I had no desire to follow them into an Olympic Class yet while my schoolmates were buying albums or whatever my spare cash went into sailing and there are untold thousands of sailors who do without something else so they can go sailing - are you suggesting their sacrifices are any less? Besides they are about money - for a start 70% of World Sailing's funding, for another government funding of a sport can depend on the number of medals or potential medals that sport might deliver. 2 countries at opposite ends of the sailing development table - Great Britain & China both (for example) use this as part of the funding calculations and of course the approaching prohibitive cost of running the damn show which cuts out many cities from hosting with some past hosts taking decades to pay off their Olympic Debt. So yes - money, money, money!

Democratising sailing? I don't think so. For many MNAs the Non-Olympic classes and sailors are second class citizens.  Nonsense.  At least nonsense in the USA .   If your MNA treats sailors as second class citizens then do something about it. If that is truly the case well done US Sailing. The RYA ( I am a long time member) is very good at looking at all things boating but, it has to be said that, while their focus on the Olympics has borne fruit with I think Team GBR missing 1 medal race (in total since the concept started) but that clearly has come about because of a focus in that direction and is naturally funded by all boating members (including powerboaters etc.) I currently sail in China (CHN) and the Chinese Yachting Association (CYA) until recently focussed entirely on the Olympics because until a few years ago that was the only sailing here so it would be unfair to criticise that.

Anyway, where did I put my tin hat? I'll keep it on for the time being - might add the Kevlar jacket too :-)

I love a good discussion

SS

See ya on the water

SS 

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Shanghaii sailor said in a long post which has got impossibly corrupted on all my browsers:

> Maybe i'm thick but how can it be harder to win an Olympic medal at the Olympics Regatta when two sailors who might otherwise be alongside you

Not thick perhaps, but you do need to talk to a few more Olympic sailors. By and large if you don't beat Fred at one event there'll be another one along in a few weeks, and if not the Europeans, the Worlds, or another Worlds next year or something. But few sailors get a shot at the Olympics at all, and most of them only one. Everyone I've talked to who's been there says its an utterly different deal.

[snip]

> while their focus on the Olympics has borne fruit with I think Team GBR missing 1 medal race (in total since the concept started) but that clearly

> has come about because of a focus in that direction and is naturally funded by all boating members (including powerboaters etc.

In fact the RYA Olympic effort is not funded by all members, AIUI its strictly ring fenced and funded from lottery money. Its actually quite instructive to look at an RYA internal phone list and see how few of their staff have much to do with elite level dinghy sailing. Very healthy actually IMHO.

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Shanghai Sailor in limp pastel green.  IPL in bold and fact facing red. ;)

The Olympics are a huge shit-show and certainly NOT the pinnacle of sailing. It simply is the pinnacle of small boat sailing. No other event demands such peak performance, dedication, physical preparation and athletic peak performance and is so hard to win. Ah so it is the pinnacle of one part of sailing. So it is more (to use the climbing analogy) a 3,000 foot cliff in Yosemite for the Free Climbers than Everest is for everyone else? (Watch the video Free Solo - it's awesome)

I have watched "Free Solo" and "Dawn Wall".....and I have also hiked to Everest Base Camp and been climbing in Torres Del Paine. I know my mountains. 

I also know that the Olympics is truly the pinnacle of small sail boat competition.  It is certainly much more akin to an Everest campaign than a one day ascent in your local national park.  Winning an Olympic medal in sailing requires success over a sustained period and years of campaigning, first to qualify and then to medal. 

To call it a "shit show" and "NOT the pinnacle of sailing"......is burying your head in the glacial moraine in the valleys without actually taking the time to admire the peaks around you.   I do not feel I have quoted you out of context. The whole thrust of your post was arguing that the Olympics are unimportant and a waste of money.

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Can a post with no quotes sort out this formatting shit show?

Edited by Dex Sawash
No, apparently
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28 minutes ago, IPLore said:

 

Shanghai Sailor in limp pastel green.  IPL in bold and fact facing red. ;)

The Olympics are a huge shit-show and certainly NOT the pinnacle of sailing. It simply is the pinnacle of small boat sailing. No other event demands such peak performance, dedication, physical preparation and athletic peak performance and is so hard to win. Ah so it is the pinnacle of one part of sailing. So it is more (to use the climbing analogy) a 3,000 foot cliff in Yosemite for the Free Climbers than Everest is for everyone else? (Watch the video Free Solo - it's awesome)

I have watched "Free Solo" and "Dawn Wall".....and I have also hiked to Everest Base Camp and been climbing in Torres Del Paine. I know my mountains. 

I also know that the Olympics is truly the pinnacle of small sail boat competition.  It is certainly much more akin to an Everest campaign than a one day ascent in your local national park.  Winning an Olympic medal in sailing requires success over a sustained period and years of campaigning, first to qualify and then to medal. 

To call it a "shit show" and "NOT the pinnacle of sailing"......is burying your head in the glacial moraine in the valleys without actually taking the time to admire the peaks around you.   I do not feel I have quoted you out of context. The whole thrust of your post was arguing that the Olympics are unimportant and a waste of money.

There is a huge difference between "THE" and "A". 

In your diatribe of disjointed quotations of what I ACTUALLY (there's a new concept for you) you omitted to quote that "I would be a hypocrite if I said I didn't enjoy watching the Olympic Sailing but I enjoy all forms of coverage of the pinnacles of our sport."

I just wonder how your assumption that I don't think that Olympic Sailing sailing is a pinnacle of our sport fits with the above quote from my earlier post (Post 35), like I say, a huge difference between THE and A.

I am not into gain saying of I've done this or that, those that know me in sailing know what I have done, more importantly I know what I have (or haven't) done and don't feel the need to state it here to gain a few points. 

I've said what I've said, many in the wider world - and more importantly those who have a career in sailing going long beyond an Olympic campaign know that for many the Olympics are just a stepping stone to a longer, more valuable and sustainable platform at the upper echelons of our sport.

Will that mean that I won't watch every second of the Olympic Regatta in Japan? of course it doesn't, I might even take the Shanghai-Japan ferry and the Shinkansen and go and watch it live. Does that mean I won't be stoked if Team GBR qualifies for every medal race AGAIN? Of course it doesn't but I was just as happy when Dongfeng crossed the finish line in Den Haag and I was there to see it LIVE, or the Thriller on San Fran Bay when the most unlikely of sports comebacks meant we were off to Bermuda next time instead of Auckland.

To say our sport has just one "THE" pinnacle does a huge disservice to diversity of sailing and to think that the Olympics are the be all and end all (and if THE Pinnacle everything else from then on is, by definition, downhill) they are missing the point.

I use to get "Seamaster" Sailing sent out on DVD from the UK each month and in each programme they interviewed a top sailor. In each interview they always asked the same question of Olympians, Volvo guys, long distance sailors etc. That question was "What do you have to do in sailing before you die (or before you retire)?

The asked that of Olivier de Kerssuson (if I spelt your name wrong, sorry big man!) If you haven't heard of him - look him up. 3 Jules Verne attempts, Eric Tabarly's first mate etc etc.

His answer?  To paraphrase "If I live another thousand years, I will not know all there is to know about the ocean". 

You get my point?

If not 'mei wenti'  as they say here in China.

Our sport is unique in that we don't just have the one Everest and we would perhaps be better at promoting our wonderful sport to those sad landsmen (and women) who have never had the joy (and challenges) of being on the water propelled by nothing more than the wind if we got out there and telling the world about the wonderful mountain ranges that await the sailor whether it is in a 4.7m dinghy an IMOCA, a flying Cat or, as my last ride was a canting 50 footer. It's all sailing.

It's not just a lifestyle, it's a way of life.

Pax LPlore

See ya on the water. 

SS

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At the time of the Olympic sea trials, 1850 Aeros had been made (according to the manufacturer), having listened to the entire equipment debate. Most of the comments were highly concerned about supply, including supply of spare parts. 

Just out of interest, when did the Aero first come on the market? First UK Nationals in 2015 - so sometime before then.

Voting by WS is in a few minutes below, after they return from lunch at 2 pm. There are several items to be heard first. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Gantt said:

At the time of the Olympic sea trials, 1850 Aeros had been made (according to the manufacturer), having listened to the entire equipment debate. Most of the comments were highly concerned about supply, including supply of spare parts. 

Just out of interest, when did the Aero first come on the market? First UK Nationals in 2015 - so sometime before then.
 

 

RS Aero was launched in 2014.

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36 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

There is a huge difference between "THE" and "A". 

In your diatribe of disjointed quotations of what I ACTUALLY (there's a new concept for you) you omitted to quote that "I would be a hypocrite if I said I didn't enjoy watching the Olympic Sailing but I enjoy all forms of coverage of the pinnacles of our sport."

I just wonder how your assumption that I don't think that Olympic Sailing sailing is a pinnacle of our sport fits with the above quote from my earlier post (Post 35), like I say, a huge difference between THE and A.

I am not into gain saying of I've done this or that, those that know me in sailing know what I have done, more importantly I know what I have (or haven't) done and don't feel the need to state it here to gain a few points. 

I've said what I've said, many in the wider world - and more importantly those who have a career in sailing going long beyond an Olympic campaign know that for many the Olympics are just a stepping stone to a longer, more valuable and sustainable platform at the upper echelons of our sport.

Will that mean that I won't watch every second of the Olympic Regatta in Japan? of course it doesn't, I might even take the Shanghai-Japan ferry and the Shinkansen and go and watch it live. Does that mean I won't be stoked if Team GBR qualifies for every medal race AGAIN? Of course it doesn't but I was just as happy when Dongfeng crossed the finish line in Den Haag and I was there to see it LIVE, or the Thriller on San Fran Bay when the most unlikely of sports comebacks meant we were off to Bermuda next time instead of Auckland.

To say our sport has just one "THE" pinnacle does a huge disservice to diversity of sailing and to think that the Olympics are the be all and end all (and if THE Pinnacle everything else from then on is, by definition, downhill) they are missing the point.

I use to get "Seamaster" Sailing sent out on DVD from the UK each month and in each programme they interviewed a top sailor. In each interview they always asked the same question of Olympians, Volvo guys, long distance sailors etc. That question was "What do you have to do in sailing before you die (or before you retire)?

The asked that of Olivier de Kerssuson (if I spelt your name wrong, sorry big man!) If you haven't heard of him - look him up. 3 Jules Verne attempts, Eric Tabarly's first mate etc etc.

His answer?  To paraphrase "If I live another thousand years, I will not know all there is to know about the ocean". 

You get my point?

If not 'mei wenti'  as they say here in China.

Our sport is unique in that we don't just have the one Everest and we would perhaps be better at promoting our wonderful sport to those sad landsmen (and women) who have never had the joy (and challenges) of being on the water propelled by nothing more than the wind if we got out there and telling the world about the wonderful mountain ranges that await the sailor whether it is in a 4.7m dinghy an IMOCA, a flying Cat or, as my last ride was a canting 50 footer. It's all sailing.

It's not just a lifestyle, it's a way of life.

Pax LPlore

See ya on the water. 

SS

Pax SS.

I think we just agreed that the Olympics is one of the pinnacles of the sport ?   A sport with several pinnacles.

As to the money? How we each spend our money is so personal....one man's waste of money is another's dream.  If I was a billionaire, I would give $10 million to support my country's Olympic team before I sponsored an AC team and I wouldn't consider it  a waste of money. That is why your Andy Pindar impresses me more than our Larry Ellison (and I am in a minority on SA who is impressed by LE).   I suspect you would give $10 million to a VOR team before an AC team.   Both of us watch every minute of the AC that we can (I went out to Bermuda to watch it) but for each of us there are pinnacles that seem higher than others...but we still love all the pinnacles (I followed the VOR every hour of the way and went to the US stopovers).  I am in awe of the dedication and skill and unique sense of representing one's country that accompanies the Olympics   but I am also in awe of the gruelling race around the world.  

One last comment, I hung out with Team Brunel in Newport. I asked PB about the so-called "triple crown" and which was the one he valued most. He replied that it would always be the one that was in front of him....at the time he was racing the VOR and the most valuable prize was the VOR....but when I asked it a different way "If he had to give up the opportunity to participate in one.....which would he be most reluctant to give up  ?"     It was the Olympic experience.

 

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Omani representative is telling a compelling story .

"We dont have another boat in our countries apart the Laser. What do we tell our kids?"

Lot of Councillors talking about postponement.

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Too many interesting quotes to type them all. 

Gotta wonder why they bothered with an evaluation and that whole committee, LOL

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Wess......I think council are raising the questions that should have been raised at equipment cttee.

Anyway...waiting for white smoke

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9 minutes ago, Wess said:

Too many interesting quotes to type them all. 

Gotta wonder why they bothered with an evaluation and that whole committee, LOL

How are you feeling about your rum?

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Wouldnt it be fun if the equipment cttee recommendation is rejected and then the aero wins the ballot? :D

 

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Wess.......I can recommend a discount liquor store....you owe Andy 12 year old rum.

Unless Melges does a come-from-behind run in the final furlong.

 

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Just now, Dex Sawash said:

Going to be Melges or D Zero now

 

/Purple

Was that Harry Melges handing out keys to Range Rovers to council members last night.....FIFA style selection process?  ;) (jest kidding obviously)

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