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Bruce Hudson

Bring back the Finn (and drop the Mixed Two Person Offshore Keelboat)

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5 hours ago, Gantt said:

 

It's been claimed that no one contemplated dropping an existing Olympic cycling event to allow BMX into the Olympics. That is incorrect.  The men's kilo time trial and the women's 500m time trial were dropped from the Olympics to make way for BMW, despite the fact that a men's track TT had been in the first Olympics and was therefore one of the oldest of all events . http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-drops-kilo-from-olympic-program/    The dropping of the TTs threw high-profile stars Sir Chris Hoy and Anna Meares out of their favoured events.

The Team Time Trial on the road was dropped after the 1992 Games to allow for the fact that MTB had been added, after having been in the Games since 1912. 

The men's madison and individual pursuit was dropped in favour of gender equality in 2009, knocking out no less a star than Bradley Wiggins out of the event in which he had won two gold.  I think Chris Boardman and other stars have also seen their events dropped from the Games.

There is very clear precedent to drop a classic, high profile event to make space for another one. Of course, arguably the Finn only got in at the cost of the International 12 anyway. It's still an active class so we should let tradition rule and bring back the 12 in place of the noobie Finn class.
 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Curious said:

It's been claimed that no one contemplated dropping an existing Olympic cycling event to allow BMX into the Olympics. That is incorrect.  The men's kilo time trial and the women's 500m time trial were dropped from the Olympics to make way for BMW, despite the fact that a men's track TT had been in the first Olympics and was therefore one of the oldest of all events . http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-drops-kilo-from-olympic-program/

The Team Time Trial on the road was dropped after the 1992 Games to make space for MTB, after having been in the Games since 1912.

The men's madison and individual pursuit was dropped in favour of gender equality in 2009, knocking out no less a star than Bradley Wiggins out of the event in which he had won two gold.  Other famous cyclists like Hoy and (I think) Boardman have seen their events dropped from the Games.

I stand corrected. I didn't know that. I did check before posting, however only looked at the number of events cycling which had risen by 4, the number of BMX medals. (I compared 2000 to 2020). My bad.

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23 minutes ago, Curious said:

It's been claimed that no one contemplated dropping an existing Olympic cycling event to allow BMX into the Olympics. That is incorrect.  The men's kilo time trial and the women's 500m time trial were dropped from the Olympics to make way for BMW, despite the fact that a men's track TT had been in the first Olympics and was therefore one of the oldest of all events . http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-drops-kilo-from-olympic-program/    The dropping of the TTs threw high-profile stars Sir Chris Hoy and Anna Meares out of their favoured events.

The Team Time Trial on the road was dropped after the 1992 Games to allow for the fact that MTB had been added, after having been in the Games since 1912. 

The men's madison and individual pursuit was dropped in favour of gender equality in 2009, knocking out no less a star than Bradley Wiggins out of the event in which he had won two gold.  I think Chris Boardman and other stars have also seen their events dropped from the Games.

There is very clear precedent to drop a classic, high profile event to make space for another one. Of course, arguably the Finn only got in at the cost of the International 12 anyway. It's still an active class so we should let tradition rule and bring back the 12 in place of the noobie Finn class.
 

 

 

Thank you for that fact check.

It's been claimed that some stuff on Dinghy Anarchy is just made up by a lawnmower.

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:

But what about the 230lbs cyclists? Are there any in the Olympics?

Good luck with that Tillerman.

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"To replace the Finn in the Olympics would be the same as replacing the skis with snowboards in the alpine disciplines." Paul Elvstrom (1999) 

The above exchange now has me wondering if they did.

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There certainly are 230 lb cyclists in the Olympics. They’re called Match sprinters. 

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6 minutes ago, Djwpe said:

There certainly are 230 lb cyclists in the Olympics. They’re called Match sprinters. 

Excellent.

If all those 230lb Finn sailors are deprived of their rights to win Olympic sailing medals they should take up Match Sprinting (whatever that is.)

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Just now, tillerman said:

Excellent.

If all those 230lb Finn sailors are deprived of their rights to win Olympic sailing medals they should take up Match Sprinting (whatever that is.)

An extremely tactical event. 

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16 minutes ago, Gantt said:

"To replace the Finn in the Olympics would be the same as replacing the skis with snowboards in the alpine disciplines." Paul Elvstrom (1999) 

The above exchange now has me wondering if they did.

Snowboarding was introduced in the 1998  Winter Olympics.

As far as I can see it did NOT replace any Alpine skiing events. There were 10 Alpine skiing events in both the 1994 and 1998 Winter Olympics - men's and women's Downhill, Super-G, Giant Slalom, Slalom, and Combined.

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24 minutes ago, Djwpe said:

There certainly are 230 lb cyclists in the Olympics. They’re called Match sprinters. 

I'm actually a little disappointed that Tillerman's assumption was wrong. I'll add that to the bicycle for two comment. 

Am highly surprised with the size of one of the team of three. Two are smaller, one is larger. Medalists were 94-100 kgs in 2016 in the Keiran. (I've only watched the event on TV, when my country won silver in the Keiran. I agree, it's very tactical).

---

"We are the most important class in the world today. We have more boats starting in more races throughout the world than any other class. We must grow through this strength and we must fight the idea of giving up the Finn as an Olympic class boat". Vernon Stratton (1967) 

1967? Seems that the Finn has been fighting this fight for a while.

The proposal for the Two Person Offshore Keelboat in its current form is very weak.

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15 minutes ago, Djwpe said:

There certainly are 230 lb cyclists in the Olympics. They’re called Match sprinters. 

Track sprinters! Pah! They may seem nice people, but they are all sods, bastards and scumbags who cruelly leave people like me, who can't accelerate to save our lives, panting in their wake once again. They even get their own "sprinters line", the pampered sods; if the sport was fair the rest of us would get a matching "slow dudes line". 

One thing sprinters prove is that you can make any sport attractive if you have the right vantage point and the spectators are pissed enough.

 

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6 hours ago, tillerman said:

Is there an Olympic cycling event that is only suitable for heavyweight men - say 180-230 lbs?

Is there an Olympic cycling event for two people on a bike?

It's relevant in a way to say that one-person bikes are slow, but as Gantt noted, the faster tandems have been dropped from the Games. In the early 1900s there was massive popular interest in paced racers where a quintuple (ie five rider bike) would provide a slipstream for a solo rider. The pacer crews were well paid and critical to the success of the solo rider, who was the star of the show and the official winner. Later there were long-distance road races where the pacer was on a durney motorbike. The relevance is that the tandems, durneys, quints etc can rip up a solo cyclist but the faster, more expensive multi-rider bikes are long gone from the Games. Sailing seems to ignore the direction that other sports have taken. People sometimes say "we can't use gear that is slower than the stuff we used to use" but the vastly higher-rating and more popular sport of cycling has done just that in many ways.

 

 

 

 

 

3934201083_bbcc0f2ae0_o.jpg

 

 

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9 hours ago, Gantt said:

"We are the most important class in the world today. We have more boats starting in more races throughout the world than any other class. We must grow through this strength and we must fight the idea of giving up the Finn as an Olympic class boat". Vernon Stratton (1967) 

1967? Seems that the Finn has been fighting this fight for a while.

 

Interesting. In 1967 the Finn had been in the Olympics four times, I believe. Currently the Laser has been in the Olympics six times.

Seems like the Laser today is where the Finn was back then... and using exactly the same argument to hang on to its Olympic status.

52 years later the Finn is still an Olympic class.

Is the Laser really going to be in the 2072 Olympics?

 

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26 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Is the Laser really going to be in the 2072 Olympics?

I hope I live long enough to find out.

---

"The Finn Class is unique. I learnt about winning and losing against the world's best. I established life long friends around the world as I learnt how tough physically and mentally a sail boat could be. I learnt the finest details of tuning and balance, the painful difference between fast and slow. Of all the boats that I have raced, from Sabots to the America's Cup and all the classes in between, for me the tough little Finn is the most sacred of them all." John Bertrand (1998)

This is the US John Bertrand (Not the Australian) who won the Laser world champs twice, the Finn world champs once, and the 1984 Olympic silver medal in the Finn.

---

Is the Mixed Two Person Keelboat event is really going to be at Marseille in 2024?

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51 minutes ago, Gantt said:

I hope I live long enough to find out.

---

"The Finn Class is unique. I learnt about winning and losing against the world's best. I established life long friends around the world as I learnt how tough physically and mentally a sail boat could be. I learnt the finest details of tuning and balance, the painful difference between fast and slow. Of all the boats that I have raced, from Sabots to the America's Cup and all the classes in between, for me the tough little Finn is the most sacred of them all." John Bertrand (1998)

This is the US John Bertrand (Not the Australian) who won the Laser world champs twice, the Finn world champs once, and the 1984 Olympic silver medal in the Finn.

---

Is the Mixed Two Person Keelboat event is really going to be at Marseille in 2024?

I hope I live long enough to see the RS Aero in the Olympics. I am not planning to wait until 2072.

Pleased to hear US John B likes the Finn. I have never met US John B but I did meet his old van at an RS Aero regatta last year.

On the whole I think it would be more fun watching the Finn in the 2024 Olympics than watching a two person keelboat.

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6 hours ago, tillerman said:


Pleased to hear US John B likes the Finn. I have never met US John B but I did meet his old van at an RS Aero regatta last year.

 

 

jb van.jpg

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New plan: replace the men’s and women’s single handed dinghies with the Finn 

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Surely there must be someone out there who still holds out hope for the Contender.

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On 5/29/2019 at 2:57 AM, Curious said:

Track sprinters! Pah! They may seem nice people, but they are all sods, bastards and scumbags who cruelly leave people like me, who can't accelerate to save our lives, panting in their wake once again. They even get their own "sprinters line", the pampered sods; if the sport was fair the rest of us would get a matching "slow dudes line". 

One thing sprinters prove is that you can make any sport attractive if you have the right vantage point and the spectators are pissed enough.

 

Way more entertaining to watch than Olympic sailing. 

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Way more entertaining to watch than Olympic sailing. 

And the replacement of the Finn with an overnight keelboat event is not going to change that.

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4 minutes ago, bill4 said:

And the replacement of the Finn with an overnight keelboat event is not going to change that.

Agreed, just drop sailing from the Olympics in my view.............flame suit on.:lol:

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Agreed, just drop sailing from the Olympics in my view.............flame suit on.:lol:

I agree. It's not like sailing is a "real" sport anyway. ;)

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Firefly, Sabot, 505, Contender are sounding more legitimate than the current Mixed Two Person Offshore Keelboat proposal of not announcing until after selections are made.

 

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1 hour ago, Gantt said:

Firefly, Sabot, 505, Contender are sounding more legitimate than the current Mixed Two Person Offshore Keelboat proposal of not announcing until after selections are made.

 

Hell, why not try some crazy new event in some unspecified boat? Got to be more interesting than watching the same old boats every year.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Hell, why not try some crazy new event in some unspecified boat? Got to be more interesting than watching the same old boats every year.

Isn't there a rule that competitors must torture themselves for a minimum of six years on the equipment selected?

The serious answer is that the less financial MNAs are severely disadvantaged, and the number of countries competing it very likely to be lower.

With the Finn, expect entries from around 25 countries. With the Two Mixed Person Offshore Keelboat, I'm not so sure. 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Hell, why not try some crazy new event in some unspecified boat? Got to be more interesting than watching the same old boats every year.

Nobody wants to do the mixed-gender overnight offshore team racing in the Star with qualifiers done in the Finn and the Europe :(

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I'm wondering how the selection procedures of the new offshore keelboat event are good for Olympic sailing. Are we we meant to be OK with what it a potentially reduced nation participation (compared to the Finn). I'm even struggling to imagine how the moves are meant to benefit offshore racing.

I found this to be a good read: https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/212624/Kindly-Leave-the-Stage

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Every time a class is dropped as Olympic equipment, there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. 8 years later, nobody cares

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11 hours ago, Gantt said:

That is a very nice summary of ALL classes that have enjoyed Olympic status and shows that yes, indeed, there is life after the Olympics. 

As time passes with regards to the decision to drop the Finn, I am more open to the change (interesting in that article the French were pushing for an offshore class many years ago). Done the proper way I think the overall sailing community would be more accepting but I think the present World Sailing organization - management is incapable to do anything in the best interest of sailers - it seems they are making decisions in the best interests of a few. World Sailing is too much like any other large global corporation - look no father than their non-sailing CEO. Finally this fixation on TV coverage is getting old. Tail wagging the dog. Where are all of the TV coverage of the windy / big wave races in Rio? If World Sailing thinks that the offshore event will have the same footage as from the last VOR then they truly are out of touch.

As for an offshore event, done correctly it can be good. Done correctly being the operative word. With track and field there is the 100 meter race all the way to a marathon. Same with Nordic skiing so plenty of precedent for short and long events.

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This, from Kim Anderson'sreport, President of World Sailing:

Quote

Regarding the Offshore event, a huge amount of work has gone into this with several working groups giving input, including Equipment & Qualification, Field of Play & Format, Safety & Security and Broadcast & Technology. For qualification, the suggestion is to have a list of equipment available worldwide to be used for national, regional and continental qualification events and the Olympic equipment to be chosen after nations have qualified, thereby maximising the participation in the qualification rounds. Regarding the field of play, safety meetings with the French Navy have taken place which will make sure the event is in good hands.

Source = https://worldsailing.activehosted.com/index.php?action=social&chash=060ad92489947d410d897474079c1477.383&s=af78e05f5e4bc2a5306003f00d08ba38

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3 hours ago, Gantt said:



Regarding the field of play, safety meetings with the French Navy have taken place which will make sure the event is in good hands.
 

Merveilleux!

  

 

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On 5/31/2019 at 9:52 PM, Gantt said:

Isn't there a rule that competitors must torture themselves for a minimum of six years on the equipment selected?

The serious answer is that the less financial MNAs are severely disadvantaged, and the number of countries competing it very likely to be lower.

With the Finn, expect entries from around 25 countries. With the Two Mixed Person Offshore Keelboat, I'm not so sure. 

How many countries showed up for the one time go around in women's match racing?

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The number of competitors/countries for each Olympic event is limited beforehand. If a country doesn't choose to send someone the next country in the rankings is invited. So the answer is "as many as there were places for". An indication of event popularity might be "how many countries entered qualification events", but that would require a deal of research.

 

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3 hours ago, Ross said:

How many countries showed up for the one time go around in women's match racing?

There were just twelve. Having said that the Elliots were available from 2009 according to World Sailing

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3 hours ago, JimC said:

The number of competitors/countries for each Olympic event is limited beforehand. If a country doesn't choose to send someone the next country in the rankings is invited. So the answer is "as many as there were places for". An indication of event popularity might be "how many countries entered qualification events", but that would require a deal of research.

The number of boats suggested for the mixed two person offshore keelboat was ten.

I don't know if they are suggesting one overnight race, or several - so several teams may use the same boats in preliminary rounds.

Another question is how consistent the builds will be. These things take additional time.

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3 hours ago, Gantt said:

The number of boats suggested for the mixed two person offshore keelboat was ten.

I don't know if they are suggesting one overnight race, or several - so several teams may use the same boats in preliminary rounds.

Another question is how consistent the builds will be. These things take additional time.

 

Is there any other Olympic event where a mixed gender couple are required to spend the night together?
 

 


 

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In 2018 President of the Italian sailing federation Federazione Italiana Vela (FIV) Francesco Ettorre said:

Quote

“Mind you, we would not be opposed to a keelboat, but to vote for it, without knowing anything about the hull or the size, it seems like a senseless leap into the dark, made by those who do not take into account the reality of our sport but only follow commercial logic”:

Seems that we are still in the dark.

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On 6/2/2019 at 5:27 PM, tillerman said:

 

Is there any other Olympic event where a mixed gender couple are required to spend the night together?
 

I understand there are several occasions at the Olympics where mixed gender couple spend the night together. After their events...

http://time.com/5137272/condoms-at-olympics/

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On 6/1/2019 at 5:31 AM, onepointfivethumbs said:

Nobody wants to do the mixed-gender overnight offshore team racing in the Star with qualifiers done in the Finn and the Europe :(

Two helms at one boat? The most interesting thing to watch would be the bear knuckle fight who gets the tiller. :-) 

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The Finn is a lovely boat, but it has been out of date for 70 years. It was the single-hander equivalent of the 12 sqm Sharpie at the Melbourne Games in 1956, which was replaced in 1960 by the Flying Dutchman for the next 32 years. In the late 1960's the Contender, a single-hander equivalent of the FD, won trials to replace the Finn - but the Finn lobby kept their boat in. 50 years later, the Contender is still a great boat, but not cutting edge. Foils are now revolutionizing sailing. The foiling Moth class is utterly up to date, is very demanding on skills, and attracts the best sailors, but it is a development class. Perhaps the right boat is not there yet? In the meantime the Laser will plod along - even though its modern equivalent the RS Aero won the trials easily.

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1 minute ago, antskip said:

The Finn is a lovely boat, but it has been out of date for 70 years....Foils are now revolutionizing sailing. The foiling Moth class is utterly up to date, is very demanding on skills, and attracts the best sailors, but it is a development class. Perhaps the right boat is not there yet? In the meantime the Laser will plod along - even though its modern equivalent the RS Aero won the trials easily.

Moths are cool if you have national/corporate sponsorship and lots of time to work on the aero packages and all the little upgrades. An OD moth (waszp, UFO, or other foiling boat I don't care) would be obsolete in a year or so in the development class. You also have to weigh between 160 and 185 lbs to sail a Moth competitively, else you're using foils that are too big and add parasitic drag once you're at speed.

I like the Aero, for what it is. Could it replace the Laser? Maybe. RS would have to really step up their game as far as their distribution network and putting together some fleet building deals to get the cost down, as well as getting Central/South America and Asia on board.

I think the idea of putting the Nacra 17 on foils was an attempt to get on that "bleeding edge of technology", except it was rushed and Nacra fucked the pooch on the engineering and the boat doesn't sail particularly well compared to boats designed from the ground up to foil (Phantom, A-Cats, GC32, et al), but the MNA's spent so much money on the infrastructure and buying either the boat or the conversion kit (which didn't really work too well) that WS isn't going to change the boat.

The Finn has had about five or six major redesigns since 1949, going from wood sticks to aluminum was huge, going from wood hulls to glass was huge, then going to carbon rigs was even bigger, the hulls went from the Newports/Teals/Elvstroms to the Vanguards and Lemieux's to the Pata's and the 1st gen Devoti's and finally the Fantasticas (and rumors of a Pata "Fantastica" competitor). Somebody who sailed a Teal with an aluminum mast and a weight vest would get absolutely crushed by someone like Giles or Zsombor Berecz. Everyone is taller, everyone is stronger anaerobically, everyone is exponentially stronger aerobically, the gear is faster and the technique is so refined that a bad pumping technique will cost you half a leg downwind at a big event, it's that tight.

 

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1 hour ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

You also have to weigh between 160 and 185 lbs to sail a Moth competitively

 

Yep. And the Finn suits 185+. So there is a need of two classes - or the RS Aero 7 and 9? I sailed an OK in the days of wooden masts only because I was too light for the Finn. I think the OK suits 175-195? The fair criticism the Finn brigade has on behalf of bigger blokes works equally the other way. But the problem is made so much worse now with the 49er in place of the FD. The FD was quite suited to Finn-sized sailors up front.

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2 hours ago, antskip said:

Yep. And the Finn suits 185+. So there is a need of two classes - or the RS Aero 7 and 9? I sailed an OK in the days of wooden masts only because I was too light for the Finn. I think the OK suits 175-195? The fair criticism the Finn brigade has on behalf of bigger blokes works equally the other way. But the problem is made so much worse now with the 49er in place of the FD. The FD was quite suited to Finn-sized sailors up front.

I haven't kept up too well with the Aero developments but my understanding was that they were presenting a new 6m^2 rig for women and the 7 or 9m^2 rig for the men. Either way, 185+lb guys were left in the cold, and the Radial is in a weird place for women that they have to bulk up beyond their normal weight to be competitive. Wasn't a problem with the Europe but oh well. So no Finns, no Stars, and if you're a girl who weighs less than 140lbs the 470 is probably your best bet.

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13 hours ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

the Radial is in a weird place for women that they have to bulk up beyond their normal weight to be competitive. Wasn't a problem with the Europe but oh well. So no Finns, no Stars, and if you're a girl who weighs less than 140lbs the 470 is probably your best bet.

Im 5’6” and I have no problem being the right for the radial if anything I struggle with not being too heavy, it’s not hard to be 140+ if you’re doing the right weight training to be competitive 

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More than 300 Finn Masters, friends and supporters at the 2019 Finn World Masters have sent an open letter to the President of World Sailing, Kim Andersen, to express their concern about the decision to drop the Finn from the 2024 Olympic programme.

The Finn World Masters, which has attracted 262 entries from 28 nations, was opened Sunday night in Skovshoved, Denmark, and is being organised by Mr Andersen's own club, the Royal Danish Yacht Club.

The letter reads,

  • Dear Mr Andersen,

    Following the controversial decision made by the World Sailing Council in November 2018 to drop the Finn from the Olympic programme, and the voting scandal surrounding that decision, we respectfully ask that you support, by whatever means necessary, the return of the Finn class into the Olympic programme.

    We are all writing to express our concerns at the following:

    • Contrary to World Sailing policy and IOC guidelines, the removal of the Finn means that sailors above 85 kg are now discriminated against in Olympic sailing. Following the loss of the Soling and the Star, the Finn was the last remaining boat suitable for heavy sailors. Data from the 2018 Aarhus Sailing World Championships shows us that Finn sailors are unique in the current Olympic classes with bodyweights above 85kg.

       

    • The removal of the Finn sacrifices perhaps the most athletic sailing class within the Olympic programme, and one that is most closely aligned to the Olympic ideals. Sailing should be embracing and marketing the bigger sailors, not discarding them. What other sport would miss this great opportunity?

       

    • After the 2020 Olympics there will be no events at all in the Olympic Sailing programme for male athletes over 85kg so these athletes will be lost to Olympic sailing. Even the Mixed Offshore Keelboat will inevitably favour athletes of lower body weight.

       

    • The Finn class has the greatest pedigree, history, and heroes in the sport of sailing. To remove it from the Olympic programme would be a massive loss for the sport. The class creates huge media interest because of its heritage as well as because of its athletic and powerful sailors. Its legacy can be seen right across the sport. To remove it from the Olympics is a huge risk to sailing and the IOC.

       

    • The removal of the Finn breaks a long held and vital pathway from youth classes to America's Cup and The Ocean Race. Once sailors grow too large to sail a Laser, and many do, there will be no further step within Olympic sailing. The pathway is broken.
  • It is perhaps worth noting that never in the history of the sport of sailing has there been so much anger, frustration and disaffection at a decision made by World Sailing. Taken in the context of a number of other recent criticisms of World Sailing, it would appear to us that many changes have and are being made against the wishes of a large number of sailors worldwide.
  • Removing the Finn from the Olympics will disenfranchise a huge group of sailors across the world from Olympic sailing, and indeed from World Sailing.

    As Finn Masters, this decision does not affect us personally, but acutely affects the opportunities open to the hundreds of young sailors we see in our class, and those who might join the class later in life because they outgrew being competitive in any other dinghy. Something very valuable to sailing is in danger of being lost.

    We feel this is an injustice and discrimination and therefore, we respectfully urge you to support the Finn to be reintroduced into the Olympic programme after 2020 as the only class on the Olympic sailing programme truly suitable for sailors above 85kg.

The letter is repeated below and the full 6 pages can be downloaded here.

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On 6/13/2019 at 1:34 AM, onepointfivethumbs said:

I think the idea of putting the Nacra 17 on foils was an attempt to get on that "bleeding edge of technology", except it was rushed and Nacra fucked the pooch on the engineering and the boat doesn't sail particularly well compared to boats designed from the ground up to foil (Phantom, A-Cats, GC32, et al), but the MNA's spent so much money on the infrastructure and buying either the boat or the conversion kit (which didn't really work too well) that WS isn't going to change the boat.

The conversion kit worked too well. Converted Mk1s are lighter and the implement of the foils was usually done at a higher quality. The tolerances and variation in production quality at original MK2s are huge. The class rules don't allow huge changes, like the position of the daggerboard trunks. So retrofitted Mk1s are usually a bit faster. Thats why the class excluded them from the gold fleet. 

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There are a few announcements regarding the intent to compete in the 2024 Olympics mixed two person keelboat event.

This from a story about Irish sailors Conor Fogarty and Susan Glenny which appears in Sail-World:

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It can take years to build the stamina and decision making criteria to operate in an offshore sailing environment where conditions and hurdles can be harrowing and diverse. The capability to operate competitively when extremely sleep deprived is key.

Still wondering how it will all work. How MNAs are going to select the 'best of the best' when they won't know exactly what they are selecting for.

It is hardly fair on competitors.

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Perhaps they could have a committee of selectors who sit down with the aspirant's sailing resumes and decide who to cap. Few seem to find fault to selecting everybody from rugby players to CEOs that way. 

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34 minutes ago, spankoka said:

Perhaps they could have a committee of selectors who sit down with the aspirant's sailing resumes and decide who to cap. Few seem to find fault to selecting everybody from rugby players to CEOs that way. 

Makes sense. I can't see them choosing the "Divorcee 40" as the boat and nations all over the globe building fleets - regardless of lead time. I would imagine there are MNA's strategizing on selection process now.  And Gantt's  Bruce's reference to the need for years to develop the skills is acknowledged, but it isn't class specific. 

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1 hour ago, spankoka said:

Perhaps they could have a committee of selectors who sit down with the aspirant's sailing resumes and decide who to cap. Few seem to find fault to selecting everybody from rugby players to CEOs that way. 

That might be at odds of World Sailing's objectives to grow sailing as a sport. For example, World Sailing consider how many compete for a place at the Olympics.

Though what you put forward might be a credible option - because holding trials many not be.

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Kim Andersen responds to Finn Master's letter: http://www.sailing.org/news/88729.php#.XQt5GogzbIU

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Dear Finn Masters,

Many thanks for your open letter regarding your concerns about the removal of the Finn Class from the Olympic Programme. As ever, your opinions and input are valued.

I am sorry I could not meet with you in Copenhagen at the Royal Danish Yacht Club as I was sailing at the Dragon Gold Cup in Medemblik, The Netherlands the same week.

The process of selecting the Olympic Events and Equipment for the Olympic Games is outlined in World Sailing Regulation 23. In November 2017, World Sailing's Council, the main decision-making body of World Sailing, voted, with a clear majority, for Submissions, proposals to change regulations, setting the framework in selecting Olympic Events for the 2024 Olympics.

A slate of Events was approved in May 2018 and a Mixed One-Person Event was part of this. Between May and November no recommendation or solution was found on how to conduct the Event and many of our Member National Authorities expressed concerns that the Mixed One-Person Dinghy Event would not work as a format and the selection of the Equipment would not be possible.

During the 2018 Annual Conference in Sarasota in November 2018, no solution proposed by any committee included the Finn as part of the Event.

The voting process referred to was not a vote about the Finn or against the Finn, it was about changing the Mixed One-Person Dinghy Event. Not having a solution for the Event and proposing a Mixed Two-Person Offshore Event fitted the framework of electing Events agreed earlier in the process. So much for the process.

It is vital that the whole Sailing Community understands the facts and processes followed which have got us to this point.

In World Sailing, the decisions made have to pass through the respective committees who in turn make recommendations to the Council, the main decision-making body of World Sailing, and these are finally ratified at the Annual General Meeting. The actual voting has been consistent in the process with a clear majority from 2017 to November 2018.

I believe a lot of MNAs have different views and priorities but at the same time they recognise the importance of developing our sport, using its Olympic status and in the process and the possibilities provided by the IOC Agenda 2020.

The events for the Paris 2024 Olympics are: 

  • Promoting the diversity of our great sport - we feature every discipline including Kiteboarding, Windsurfing, Catamarans/Multihulls, Singlehanded & Double Handed Dinghies, Skiff and Offshore sailing;
  • Promoting universality in all the events measured on continents and nations;
  • Increasing women's participation, gender equality on athletes and events/medals;
  • Showcasing new events - Kite relay, mixed teams racing and offshore sailing.

The dilemma for our Olympic venue is that we only have 10 medals and 350 sailors to showcase sailing, but by continuing with the status quo we are not doing the job of developing our great sport.

We as a Sailing community have recognised that in order to stay relevant, we need to adapt as a sport.

I am sure that the concerns listed in your letter are concerns known to Committee, Council and members of the Annual General Meeting and have been given serious consideration.

Other sports have had to make "sacrifices" for development, for example rowing not having light-weight disciplines, but adopting Gender equality.

As a President and Board Member, I am bound by decisions of the Council and Annual General Meeting.

The participation and high standards of the Finn Masters is a proof of a strong Class.

The Finn Class is a great class and will continue to be a great class!

Regards

Kim Andersen

 

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13 hours ago, BruceH-NZ said:

Kim Andersen responds to Finn Master's letter: http://www.sailing.org/news/88729.php#.XQt5GogzbIU

We as a Sailing community have recognised that in order to stay relevant, we need to adapt as a sport.

Hey Kim... FUCK YOU. 

How prey tell are people who, like me, are 194 cm tall and 110 kg supposed to adapt?  Cut off our legs?

I guess we're not "relevant" to sailing.

 

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2 hours ago, lonbordin said:

Hey Kim... FUCK YOU. 

How prey tell are people who, like me, are 194 cm tall and 110 kg supposed to adapt?  Cut off our legs?

I guess we're not "relevant" to sailing.

 

It doesn't matter what class you pick, it will suit a particular weight and body type. The chance that the Olympic single hander for men suits you in particular is probably no better than 1 in 100. There are many people who are amazing athletes but whose favourite event isn't included in the Olympics (cycling has many examples, as does sailing) or their sport isn't on the program at all.

The Finn has had a good run, be happy that it's done so well and let a boat that suits some other weight and body type have a run.

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21 hours ago, RobG said:

It doesn't matter what class you pick, it will suit a particular weight and body type. The chance that the Olympic single hander for men suits you in particular is probably no better than 1 in 100. There are many people who are amazing athletes but whose favourite event isn't included in the Olympics (cycling has many examples, as does sailing) or their sport isn't on the program at all.

The Finn has had a good run, be happy that it's done so well and let a boat that suits some other weight and body type have a run.

And if we’re lucky, the class will come to its senses, and allow hiking seats- :lol:

 

C106B9A2-1E64-4558-9E6F-F6EAC6508BDE.jpeg

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7 hours ago, Amati said:

And if we’re lucky, the class will come to its senses, and allow hiking seats- :lol:

OK, I'll bite. What is it? ^^ (And are the 326 of them?)

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20 minutes ago, BruceH-NZ said:

OK, I'll bite. What is it? ^^ (And are the 326 of them?)

Its one of the northern European racing canoe classes. There are a number of them, but that's the Swedish E class. There's a school of thought that the Finn was heavily influenced by the canoe classes, but with the stern truncated. The (for the time) relatively fine bow and aftwards waterplane certainly give that impression.  The little winglets for hiking are common in those classes. Having a canoe stern they tend to squat at speed, so need less fore and aft trim that a transom sterned boat.

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

Its one of the northern European racing canoe classes. There are a number of them, but that's the Swedish E class. There's a school of thought that the Finn was heavily influenced by the canoe classes, but with the stern truncated. The (for the time) relatively fine bow and aftwards waterplane certainly give that impression.  The little winglets for hiking are common in those classes. Having a canoe stern they tend to squat at speed, so need less fore and aft trim that a transom sterned boat.

Absolutely fascinating to read about it. Thanks for posting that ^^. 

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