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BruceH-NZ

Bring back the Finn (and drop the Mixed Two Person Offshore Keelboat)

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Details for the Two Person Offshore Keelboat are emerging.

Looks like they may not introduce the keelboat until December 2023, supposedly to prevent an arms race. Fascinating. Apparently it is enough for selection to know that it will be an offshore boat. (With or without trim tabs? Asymmetrical kite? Displacement? Planing? Foil? Low aspect ratio main? Fully battened? Will it be more like a Mini 6.5? Or a Beneteau? Or a Volvo 60? (It will be the most expensive boat - who will pay? Will MNAs buy local fleets, but not until a few months before the Olympics? Then the same equipment will be retained until 2028)

Wondering about the selection process - in equipment which will be different to the equipment finally used. Wondering how many countries will be involved. Wondering if any Olympic sport ever promotes not being allowed to practice with the equipment BEFORE QUALIFICATION? (This is what is proposed).

And the Finn was dropped for this??? (It is not as if the Finn was ever any good for Olympic sailing, right?)

Is it just me, or do others consider the Finn to be THE premiere Olympic sailing event?!?

In my view, this goes to the core of what Olympic sailing is all about, and World Sailing is promoting something that I cannot comprehend the proposed event as a desired form of Olympic Sailing.

It is like swapping the 100 m (the premiere athletic event) for an overnight hike for two up some hill.

It is time to challenge this decision. Again. (And again until Olympic sailing wins).

Bring back the Finn.

Keeler.png

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I think this memory, and tradition, is worth keeping alive.

 

paulelvstrom_finnjolle0001.jpg

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Can’t wait until they drop sailing from the olympics, it’s just a cash cow being milked by the organisers. 

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Gannt, have you done any shorthanded overnight racing?  It's not easy!

The Finn class have repeatedly said that there should be a spot for heavy sailors at the Games, but there are vast numbers of yacht sailors who are not represented in the Olympics.  Why should representation of body type be important and representation of boat type be irrelevant?  One may also ask, if representing all body types is so important, why did the Finn class apparently utterly ignore the principle until it suited its own naked self interest?

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40 minutes ago, Gantt said:

I think this memory, and tradition, is worth keeping alive.

 

paulelvstrom_finnjolle0001.jpg

So why not keep his other tradition alive? Same man, driving another class in which he won multiple worlds, including one as a designer.

 

 

ajaxnetphoto-sept-1981-poole-england-half-ton-cup-1981-king-one-skippered-HDERN2.jpg

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38 minutes ago, Curious said:

Gannt, have you done any shorthanded overnight racing?  It's not easy!

The Finn class have repeatedly said that there should be a spot for heavy sailors at the Games, but there are vast numbers of yacht sailors who are not represented in the Olympics.  Why should representation of body type be important and representation of boat type be irrelevant?  One may also ask, if representing all body types is so important, why did the Finn class apparently utterly ignore the principle until it suited its own naked self interest?

I'll answer this as there is no "Gannt", at least that I know of.

Curious, no, never competed in shorthanded overnight racing myself, though once sponsored a Mini Transat. I was more interested in Olympic sailing.

I'm not saying offshore keelboat racing is without merit, it is a completely different event, and in my view a new sport that is being introduced to the Olympics.

Do you think the way offshore keelboat racing being introduced is actually good? 

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Isn't Cycling in the Olympics? I'm pretty sure there's even a nice long technical road race where different strengths and strategies get to be played out. Do people consider the cycling road race in the Olympics to be the pinnacle of cycling? No. Even to seasoned sports journalists, the pinnacle of cycling is the Tour De France, just as the pinnacle of Soccer is the World Cup. 

Holistically, sailing is an incredibly diverse discipline. Different classes, different types of racing, courses, et al., ranging from kiteboarders to J-class yachts to kiddies banging around in Optis. Team racing, match racing, fleet racing, point-to-point, windward-leeward, distance racing, slaloms, all have their day. 

For shorthanded and offshore sailing, their "Tour De France-Super Bowl-World Cup" is the Vendee Globe, the Volvo/Whitbread/Current-Iteration's-Name, La Solitaire du Figaro, the Tour De France A La Voile, the Mini Transat, the Barcelona World Race, and the Transat Jacques Vabre.  This has been the case for decades, and has produced heroes like Bernard Stamm, Mich Desjoyeaux, Alex Thomson, Armel Le'Cleach, and many others.

The length of the Olympic games lends itself better to shorter events, especially those that can be completed in under an hour. You'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE who watches the Olympic Marathon all the way through, and many events are cut in the middle for advertisements or cut to another shorter event before returning. Unless you're running the world's shortest courses or it's blowing the dogs off the chains, dinghy and small keelboat races around a standard W4 windward-leeward or an Olympic triangle should take roughly 45 minutes. Sure, you COULD have Farr 40's or Melges 24/32/37/40's whip around a course in a little less time, but it also represents an exponential increase in cost since you're now feeding and housing bigger crews and you have to move big heavy keelboats that do not fit into 52' shipping containers, plus the associated increase in hardware, sail, and line cost and the price for dockage and haul-out. 

I watched most of the coverage for the Oakcliff doublehanded test event in the Melges 24's. As an intellectual exercise, it was interesting, and it was fun to see some of the solutions they came up with. However, the actual racing was mind-numbingly boring. Even with a more extensive media machine (drones, SAP tracking, multiple camera perspectives), I could still not give less of a shit watching someone sit in the cockpit taking a nap in full foulies. Long Island Sound in May is fairly docile, while Marseille in August is somewhat less so, and in 2028 watching the breeze shut off behind Catalina Island at dusk is going to be as scintillating as watching paint dry.

There is also the size issue. If you look at the Olympic-caliber Finn guys, let's take for example Giles Scott (GBR) and Jake Lilley (AUS). Giles is 197cm tall and weighs 95kg. Jake is 203cm and 98kg. These are by no means "meatheads", nor are they carrying hardly any body fat. If they want to continue to sail dinghies or small keelboats besides a few notable exceptions (One of which was unceremoniously dumped in 2012...), they would have to lose weight that they cannot physically lose, even by biking 100km a day and eating nothing but kale. As one of the WS executives in Sarasota so flippantly said, "Go play basketball then, we don't care". 

 

 

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Don't tell the French that no one watches shorthanded races in small yachts.

Alt_150620_La Solitaire du Figaro_0961.jpg

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2 hours ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

Even to seasoned sports journalists, the pinnacle of cycling is the Tour De France, just as the pinnacle of Soccer is the World Cup. 

Arguably the active cycle community rates the Tour as being much less of a pinnacle than casual observers do.  Inside cycling, one day road racing is often seen as a fairly separate event to Grand Tours, and there are plenty of pros and fans who rate a win in a one day Monument or the Worlds above the Tour, which is suited to a narrower range of cyclists.

There is also the size issue. If you look at the Olympic-caliber Finn guys, let's take for example Giles Scott (GBR) and Jake Lilley (AUS). Giles is 197cm tall and weighs 95kg. Jake is 203cm and 98kg. These are by no means "meatheads", nor are they carrying hardly any body fat. If they want to continue to sail dinghies or small keelboats besides a few notable exceptions (One of which was unceremoniously dumped in 2012...), they would have to lose weight that they cannot physically lose, even by biking 100km a day and eating nothing but kale. As one of the WS executives in Sarasota so flippantly said, "Go play basketball then, we don't care". 

On the size issue - can you tell when the Finn class started to say that sailors of all weights should be catered for in Olympic sailing? As far as I can find out, the Finn class didn't give a flying fuck for lighter sailors at any stage - in fact the only time weight seems to have been mentioned the response from a class legend was something like "bad luck for the lighties, the Olympics are for big guys".

If, as seems to be the case, the Finn class didn't care about light sailors, why should light sailors care about Finn sailors? Do Finn sailors seriously feel that they deserve consideration that the Finn class never seems to have given to light sailors?  I've asked this question a few times but for what seem like obvious reasons, got no answer. The Finn's case seems to be fatally flawed since they only care about the issue when it suits them.

 

 

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The mini transat is said to be the third most watched event in France, after the French open and the tour de France. There is a show on sailing on TV5 that features the build up for years. That will not be possible, as selection won't happen until 2023. The story will also be around the controversy of whether the trials are held in the right kind of boat. Whether the boat will have water balance, or a swing keel. (5 years out, we've just heard we won't know for some time, and we may no know until December 2023.)

For cycling, I get it. It will be like a longer event. Trouble is, will it be held on a road bike, mountain bike, a BMX or a penny farthing? 

And athleticism. To not include an even because of the body type? I liked hearing that the fittest people in the Olympics are down hill skiers and Finn sailors. Their athleticism adds to the difficulty of winning, not detracts. Imagine the same statement being applied athletics - that an event isn't fair because certain body types are advantaged? Come on.

Putting one event against another is like saying that there is no room for both the Javelin and the shot put, so go argue the merits. Or both are being dropped in favor of gumboot throwing because the TV ratings are higher. That sucks. These are all throwing events - does the equipment really matter?

That is not what the Olympics are about.

Anyhow, my main beef is the way it has been introduced to the Olympics, not whether or not the discipline belongs.  And the way it is being introduced goes against any notion of any Olympic ethos I am familiar with.

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5 hours ago, Gantt said:

Details for the Two Person Offshore Keelboat are emerging. 

Looks like they may not introduce the keelboat until December 2023, supposedly to prevent an arms race. Fascinating. Apparently it is enough for selection to know that it will be an offshore boat. (With or without trim tabs? Asymmetrical kite? Displacement? Planing? Foil? Low aspect ratio main? Fully battened? Will it be more like a Mini 6.5? Or a Beneteau? Or a Volvo 60? (It will be the most expensive boat - who will pay? Will MNAs buy local fleets, but not until a few months before the Olympics? Then the same equipment will be retained until 2028)

Why are you worried about cost? You do realise that some of these guys competing in pretty much any 2 person boat in the olympics are sitting at running costs exceeding $100 000 per year... Clearly by the end of an Olympic cycle these guys are probably knocking though almost half a million dollars. You have to remember these guys are spending probably 1/4th of the season in a country half way around the world training (like in Australia, NZ etc.), 1/4th of the season at another venue (like Europe/USA), and another 1/4th travelling around the world to qualifying events, and at the very most 1/4th of their life at home (few are lucky to live in a place where fleets are available). This is all, flights, accommodations, food, gyms, coaching, memberships at yacht clubs, boat storage, boat transport, sails, equipment, rigging.

Oh yeah and multiple ownership of boats, every single team I know is running 2 boat campaigns, so what's 2 Nacra's on top of that? Another $120k?

Lets say they ran at $500k for a full 4 year Olympic cycle in total running costs, that's only 20% of the actual cost being spent on the boat/s.

Who do you think pays for all of that? Because so what, the cost of the boat by my estimates is an almost negligible cost.

Wondering about the selection process - in equipment which will be different to the equipment finally used. Wondering how many countries will be involved. Wondering if any Olympic sport ever promotes not being allowed to practice with the equipment BEFORE QUALIFICATION? (This is what is proposed).

Literally every country I have ever raced in or have watched racing in, has classes of small offshore keel-boats, with decent numbers which would be perfect training before qualification. The equipment will hardly matter for these teams, any 26-34' racing keel-boat of relatively modern design sails relatively the same, anyone of the level of Olympic sailing should not have any issue if the boats a symmetric kite/asymmetric etc, they all should be well experienced enough already.

And the Finn was dropped for this??? (It is not as if the Finn was ever any good for Olympic sailing, right?)

And the Finn was dropped for this? Yes. Duh. The Finn was dropped because it was good for Olympic sailing, 60+ years ago but not anymore. I am a sailor at heart, I watch so much sailing the people around me are genuinely worried about me because I already sail so much. But fuck me, the Finn is the most boring class I have ever watched, I think to the viewers, this is bad for Olympic sailing. Lack of viewers, means lack of sponsorship, means lack of money, which in the end leads to no more Olympic sailing.

I showed a bunch of guys in the office 4 separate videos; 30' keelboat racing offshore, nacra 17 racing, 49er FX racing, and Finn racing. Everyone loved the Nacra, a couple really like the keelboat, and a couple liked the 49er, and all of them thought the Finn was boring and wanted to stop watching it.

What you have to remember is, viewers of the Olympics, AREN'T ALL SAILORS, we are the tiny majority, and a small number of us, like the Finn.

Is it just me, or do others consider the Finn to be THE premiere Olympic sailing event?!?

Yes, it is just you, and a small percentage of Finn sailing purists who live in the dark ages, that's cool, Like whatever you want to, but you are talking about hundreds of people who have the same opinion as you, compared to the couple of hundred million people who view the Olympics in person and on TV.

In my view, this goes to the core of what Olympic sailing is all about, and World Sailing is promoting something that I cannot comprehend the proposed event as a desired form of Olympic Sailing.

I for one, and know I'm not alone here, cannot comprehend how the absolute fuck the "Finn" has been in the Olympics for so long, it should have been superseded 20 years ago. For once, a somewhat move forward by the Olympics 

It is like swapping the 100 m (the premiere athletic event) for an overnight hike for two up some hill.

Ahh no, that's just a terrible opinion. You, the tiny majority think the Finn is the premiere event in sailing, the vast majority of Olympics viewers (who again aren't sailors) look at it like it's the Curling of the summer olympics. It's slow as shit, complicated as shit, and has a little nice of followers who love it.

It is time to challenge this decision. Again. (And again until Olympic sailing wins).

No, it is not. I stand with the movement to go forward, because that is the only way sailing wins.  

Bring back the Finn.

Please don't, please let it die a noble death, it had a great long run, but by 2024 it'll be what 75 years old? We can't keep sailing in the dark ages for so long, it's a detriment to our sport. If people at home watch boats which look boring, they'll never go have a shot at it. If people at home see something which looks interesting, they might actually go try it! And I think the best option of showing that to the public is... A small fast single person skiff, a two person skiff, a two person high performance cat and a small keelboat. Especially given anyone on earth can just go down to a local club and hitch a ride on a small keelboat, pretty much no one can "just go out and try a Finn".

Keeler.png

If people didn't just nut up, shut up, and grow up with the times, we wouldn't have even moved onto boats like the Finn 60 years ago, and the Olympics would still be sailed on boats like this, because in 1896 stuff like "THESE WERE THE PREMIERE SAILING BOATS" of that time according to people like you.

sailboats-sailing-in-sea-against-sky-760

IMG_2878-001.jpg?resize=1500,430

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1 hour ago, Gantt said:

 

And athleticism. To not include an even because of the body type? I liked hearing that the fittest people in the Olympics are down hill skiers and Finn sailors. Their athleticism adds to the difficulty of winning, not detracts. Imagine the same statement being applied athletics - that an event isn't fair because certain body types are advantaged? Come on.

Putting one event against another is like saying that there is no room for both the Javelin and the shot put, so go argue the merits. Or both are being dropped in favor of gumboot throwing because the TV ratings are higher. That sucks. These are all throwing events - does the equipment really matter?

That is not what the Olympics are about.

Anyhow, my main beef is the way it has been introduced to the Olympics, not whether or not the discipline belongs.  And the way it is being introduced goes against any notion of any Olympic ethos I am familiar with.

I didn't say that an event should not be included because of the body type. The issue is that the lighter sailors were disadvantaged in the Olympics for many decades (arguably from about 1928 till 1996 or so) and the big fellas appear to have never had an issue with it. They appear to have been quite happy to disadvantage lighter sailors, but when the tables are turned, they complain like hell and speak as if there was something unfair about people of a certain size being disadvantaged - something they did not care about when they were the lucky ones.

Personally I'd like it if heavy sailors could still race, but the issue is that the Finn class is not even handed when it comes to the issue of being fair to all weights. 

I'm not sure what the big problem is about the way the offshore boat is being introduced. In earlier eras they have announced that they would bring in a new discipline, and then gone out to select a class. There was a lot of talk about a half tonner or similar boat getting into the Games in the early '70s but the Tornado got in instead. No one seemed to have a problem with the fact that the plan was to decide to put an offshore boat in, and then select the boat.

PS - I have never heard that Finn sailors were the fittest sailors, and I do know of relevant sports science papers where any such claim would have been included. Can you give a citation? To be honest, it doesn't seem logical that the men in one very small discipline would have been fitter than the runners, the cyclists, the swimmers and the weightlifters. Seriously, didn't Phelps and Bolt train pretty damn hard?  I can't recall hearing about them sitting around eating burgers while sailors went out and hit the weights.

If the Finn sailors spent more time than any other summer Olympians on physical training, doesn't that mean they must have pretty much ignored tactics, tuning and the rest of the very complex art of sailing? That seems unlikely. So given they had the same amount of time, many other aspects to consider, lots of boathandling and sail testing to work on, why would they suddenly become ubermensch?

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I think there needs to be a keel boat class at the OLympics.

I would not have chosen this particular event.....but we do not need another dinghy category at the expense of no keelboat category. 

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9 minutes ago, IPLore said:

I would not have chosen this particular event....

...we don't really know what event it is, and won't for some time.

 

5 hours ago, darth reapius said:

If people didn't just nut up, shut up, and grow up with the times, we wouldn't have even moved onto boats like the Finn 60 years ago, and the Olympics would still be sailed on boats like this, because in 1896 stuff like "THESE WERE THE PREMIERE SAILING BOATS" of that time according to people like you.

Ben Ainslie wasn't born 60 years ago. I heard he's a moderately good sailor. The Finn wasn't frozen in time, and I'm not against changing classes. The boats are not premiere, but the event is.

I can see you are justifying "the event" - though you don't know what "the event" will be - nobody does. We are bring the best of the best to sail in a contest, right?

 

4 hours ago, Curious said:

I'm not sure what the big problem is about the way the offshore boat is being introduced. In earlier eras they have announced that they would bring in a new discipline, and then gone out to select a class. There was a lot of talk about a half tonner or similar boat getting into the Games in the early '70s but the Tornado got in instead. No one seemed to have a problem with the fact that the plan was to decide to put an offshore boat in, and then select the boat.

Not sure that paragraph made complete sense. The issue is that WS is not going to announce what the equipment will be until a few months before the games, and AFTER selection trials. That means whoever coincidentally used equipment most similar for selection criteria, will be at an advantage. Are you sure that this is a good way to run a contest of the best of the best?

Let's introduce the boat, and give a fair amount of time for MNAs, especially less financial ones, to put together selection trials and allow competitors to have a campaign. At the very least, the event should be deferred to Los Angeles in 2028.

And let's keep the Finn in the Olympics.

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57 minutes ago, Gantt said:

 

 

Ben Ainslie wasn't born 60 years ago. I heard he's a moderately good sailor. The Finn wasn't frozen in time, and I'm not against changing classes. The boats are not premiere, but the event is.

 

And let's keep the Finn in the Olympics.

Ben Ainslie won two Olympic medals in the Laser before switching to the Finn. If the Finn had not been in the Olympics, Ben would have stayed in the Laser and kept winning medals in the Laser.

Ben Ainslie is the poster child example of why the Finn should not be in the Olympics anymore.

The greatest beneficiary from the Finn Class presence in the Olympics in 2008 was Paul Goodison ;)

 

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Anyway........Returning the FInn is soooo not going to happen.

Council is going to take enough heat from the media about over riding the equipment committee and retaining one older design of single handed dinghy......the chances of them reversing a decision and bringing back an even older dinghy design which has next to zero youth participation, no women participation, with participation limited to relatively few wealthier nations has less chance than an ice cube in hell.

This is about as relevant as discussing the return of the 8 meter class.

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8 hours ago, darth reapius said:

... But fuck me, the Finn is the most boring class I have ever watched, I think to the viewers, this is bad for Olympic sailing. Lack of viewers, means lack of sponsorship, means lack of money, which in the end leads to no more Olympic sailing.

...I showed a bunch of guys in the office 4 separate videos; 30' keelboat racing offshore, nacra 17 racing, 49er FX racing, and Finn racing. Everyone loved the Nacra, a couple really like the keelboat, and a couple liked the 49er, and all of them thought the Finn was boring and wanted to stop watching it.

...What you have to remember is, viewers of the Olympics, AREN'T ALL SAILORS, we are the tiny majority, and a small number of us, like the Finn.

... the vast majority of Olympics viewers (who again aren't sailors) look at it like it's the Curling of the summer olympics. It's slow as shit, complicated as shit, and has a little nice of followers who love it.

Sailing on Olympics TV coverage is inconsequential. How much advertising revenue would be lost if sailing was taking out of the Olympics? Zero. When touting advantages or disadvantages of any boat in the Olympics, discussing TV viewers and advertising revenue is absolutely pointless.

Curling is, in fact, a Winter Olympic sport. 

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

This is about as relevant as discussing the return of the 8 meter class.

Which, on the basis of listening to the WS discussion on the new keeler event, is entirely possible!

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49 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Sailing on Olympics TV coverage is inconsequential. How much advertising revenue would be lost if sailing was taking out of the Olympics? Zero. When touting advantages or disadvantages of any boat in the Olympics, discussing TV viewers and advertising revenue is absolutely pointless.

Curling is, in fact, a Winter Olympic sport. 

Once it was viewed, back then it was cutting edge, planing dinghys, catamarans, sailing was popular.

It isnt now, and i guess why is because when people see it they think its boring as batshit, because its mostly been slow old white things bobbing around.

I had a hard time ever convincing my friends to come sailing.

I showed them helmet cam footage from some tornado sailing and suddenly I had a whole bunch of pwople interested.

Make it interesting again, people will watch it more, sponsors will notice.

Its a cycle, cant just leave it in the dumps and not blame the fact no one cares is because theres not much to care about.

Seriously as a devout sailor, i dont give a shit about the Finn, Laser, 420 and dont watch them. But the Cats are fun as fuck to watch.

Also yes, i watch the winter olympics, i have seen it, and prpmptly turned it off, its a boring niche only enthusiasts are interested in, just like the finn, whereas the boardercross, while less people could physically go do it, tonnes watch it, and because of that it garners sponsors, and its all because its fast enough for people's short attention spans, and has some fucking action in it.

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9 hours ago, darth reapius said:

Why are you worried about cost? You do realise that some of these guys competing in pretty much any 2 person boat in the olympics are sitting at running costs exceeding $100 000 per year... Clearly by the end of an Olympic cycle these guys are probably knocking though almost half a million dollars. You have to remember these guys are spending probably 1/4th of the season in a country half way around the world training (like in Australia, NZ etc.), 1/4th of the season at another venue (like Europe/USA), and another 1/4th travelling around the world to qualifying events, and at the very most 1/4th of their life at home (few are lucky to live in a place where fleets are available). This is all, flights, accommodations, food, gyms, coaching, memberships at yacht clubs, boat storage, boat transport, sails, equipment, rigging.

Oh yeah and multiple ownership of boats, every single team I know is running 2 boat campaigns, so what's 2 Nacra's on top of that? Another $120k?

Lets say they ran at $500k for a full 4 year Olympic cycle in total running costs, that's only 20% of the actual cost being spent on the boat/s.

Who do you think pays for all of that? Because so what, the cost of the boat by my estimates is an almost negligible cost.

Your numbers are off. A small keeler will cost significantly more than the Narcra 17, and shipping them around the world will be significantly higher - you won't be able to pack a number of them into a single container.

World Sailing is highly concerned with cost, with providing an equitable contest in which more rather than fewer MNAs can compete.

This directly clashes with the philosophy of the Finn - where it is about sailing excellence - rather than a lottery made for the viewing pleasure. 

 

1 minute ago, darth reapius said:

Once it was viewed, back then it was cutting edge, planing dinghys, catamarans, sailing was popular.

It isnt now, and i guess why is because when people see it they think its boring as batshit, because its mostly been slow old white things bobbing around.

I had a hard time ever convincing my friends to come sailing.

I showed them helmet cam footage from some tornado sailing and suddenly I had a whole bunch of pwople interested.

Make it interesting again, people will watch it more, sponsors will notice.

Its a cycle, cant just leave it in the dumps and not blame the fact no one cares is because theres not much to care about.

Seriously as a devout sailor, i dont give a shit about the Finn, Laser, 420 and dont watch them. But the Cats are fun as fuck to watch.

Also yes, i watch the winter olympics, i have seen it, and prpmptly turned it off, its a boring niche only enthusiasts are interested in, just like the finn, whereas the boardercross, while less people could physically go do it, tonnes watch it, and because of that it garners sponsors, and its all because its fast enough for people's short attention spans, and has some fucking action in it.

And there we have it. Olympic Sailing exists for your viewing pleasure. On that basis, there is a genuine case to replace Super Bowl with Puppy Bowl - the viewing pleasure of the right socioeconomic groups make it viable, plus it it is more accessible to own a puppy than it is to play football.

 

3 hours ago, IPLore said:

Ben Ainslie won two Olympic medals in the Laser before switching to the Finn. If the Finn had not been in the Olympics, Ben would have stayed in the Laser and kept winning medals in the Laser.

Ben Ainslie is the poster child example of why the Finn should not be in the Olympics anymore.

The greatest beneficiary from the Finn Class presence in the Olympics in 2008 was Paul Goodison ;)

Yes, you are entirely right. Ben Ainslie would have almost certainly won medals in the Laser. So why did he bother changing?

Was he driven, at least in part, to be the best?

Did Ben Ainslie (like many before him) switch to the Finn because it had less status than a medal in the Laser - and that it was all about securing an Olympic medal?

Are all sailing medals, in the minds of the majority Olympians, equal?

World Sailing are moving away from the values of what make a medal prestigious, away from tradition and away from the norms that require athletes to sacrifice years of their life to win - by introducing a keelboat contest deliberately based on unknowns.

Do you like the way the keelboat is being introduced?

This is most certainly a modern version of the emperor having no clothes. I'm not suggesting that the time of the Finn is not coming to an end. What I am suggesting is that in light of the new event having not being establish in good time, it is time to call it, and extending the Finn for another Olympic cycle gives World Sailing time they obviously need to establish a brand new sailing event.

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39 minutes ago, Gantt said:

 

Yes, you are entirely right. I know, I cant help it.:rolleyes:

Ben Ainslie would have almost certainly won medals in the Laser. So why did he bother changing?  He cared about the color of the medal and there was the slight problem of a certain Brazilian.

Was he driven, at least in part, to be the best? Ben always strives to be the best. It doesnt matter what class, he is not there to come second.

Did Ben Ainslie (like many before him) switch to the Finn because it had less status than a medal in the Laser - and that it was all about securing an Olympic medal? Huh? Yes he was always trying to secure a medal. 

Are all sailing medals, in the minds of the majority Olympians, equal?  An Olympic medal is among the most prestigious trophies a sailor can attain. Most sailors would say that an Olympic medal is an Olympic medal  and you choose a class which gives you the best chance of success. If there is any differentiation, then the Laser is probably the most competitive class in the world....but I think most Olympians would say they are all equal.

World Sailing are moving away from the values of what make a medal prestigious,  I dont think so away from tradition  Keel boats were in the Olympics long before dinghies and there were offshore races in the Olympics 50 years before the Finn joined the Olympics  (Darn facts!)  and away from the norms that require athletes to sacrifice years of their life to win - by introducing a keelboat contest deliberately based on unknowns.

Do you like the way the keelboat is being introduced? I would personally prefer to see inshore racing in fast planing keelboats...that allows more nations to compete.  But I recognize that offshore racing is an important part of the sport and has previously been part of the Olympics since 1900. So although not my personal first choice, I admire the experiment and it is surely better than having a duplicate single mens dinghy.

This is most certainly a modern version of the emperor having no clothes. I'm not suggesting that the time of the Finn is not coming to an end. What I am suggesting is that in light of the new event having not being establish in good time, it is time to call it, and extending the Finn for another Olympic cycle gives World Sailing time they obviously need to establish a brand new sailing event.  Jeez...its 2019. The Olympics is not until 2024.  That is plenty of time to put together a team and a program.

The Finn is not coming back.  Face reality.

1438303307_burningice.jpg.9aa568f3c5ee5b4fa3ee7918eee7d998.jpg

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26 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Yes, you are entirely right. I know, I cant help it.:rolleyes:

Ben Ainslie would have almost certainly won medals in the Laser. So why did he bother changing?  He cared about the color of the medal and there was the slight problem of a certain Brazilian. I could write a list of those who made the move from Laser to Finn. The Olympic dream was (is) more the Finn than the Laser.

Was he driven, at least in part, to be the best? Ben always strives to be the best. It doesnt matter what class, he is not there to come second.

Did Ben Ainslie (like many before him) switch to the Finn because it had less status than a medal in the Laser - and that it was all about securing an Olympic medal? Huh? Yes he was always trying to secure a medal. Huh. Indeed. You just don't get it.

Are all sailing medals, in the minds of the majority Olympians, equal?  An Olympic medal is among the most prestigious trophies a sailor can attain. Most sailors would say that an Olympic medal is an Olympic medal  and you choose a class which gives you the best chance of success. If there is any differentiation, then the Laser is probably the most competitive class in the world....but I think most Olympians would say they are all equal. The Laser medal has become more prestigious. They are not all equal and while that sucks - some classes are stronger than others. That certain Brazilian found that out in the Star (Again, there is a list of those who tried to make it in the Star).

World Sailing are moving away from the values of what make a medal prestigious,  I dont think so away from tradition  Keel boats were in the Olympics long before dinghies and there were offshore races in the Olympics 50 years before the Finn joined the Olympics  (Darn facts!)  and away from the norms that require athletes to sacrifice years of their life to win - by introducing a keelboat contest deliberately based on unknowns. This is less about the equipment, and more about what makes a class special. Are you really saying that any old boat will do - so long as it is exciting to look at and good for TV?

Do you like the way the keelboat is being introduced? I would personally prefer to see inshore racing in fast planing keelboats...that allows more nations to compete.  But I recognize that offshore racing is an important part of the sport and has previously been part of the Olympics since 1900. So although not my personal first choice, I admire the experiment and it is surely better than having a duplicate single mens dinghy. And in so saying you have entirely missed what the issue is. You seem to be framing that I am against the event. I'm not. However I am against the way that the new event is being introduced.

 This is most certainly a modern version of the emperor having no clothes. I'm not suggesting that the time of the Finn is not coming to an end. What I am suggesting is that in light of the new event having not being establish in good time, it is time to call it, and extending the Finn for another Olympic cycle gives World Sailing time they obviously need to establish a brand new sailing event.  Jeez...its 2019. The Olympics is not until 2024.  That is plenty of time to put together a team and a program. The decision of creating a list of attributes has been deferred to the end of the year. You do realize that the plan is to announce the equipment AFTER the selection trials.

 

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19 hours ago, Gantt said:

Details for the Two Person Offshore Keelboat are emerging.

Looks like they may not introduce the keelboat until December 2023, supposedly to prevent an arms race. Fascinating. Apparently it is enough for selection to know that it will be an offshore boat. (With or without trim tabs? Asymmetrical kite? Displacement? Planing? Foil? Low aspect ratio main? Fully battened? Will it be more like a Mini 6.5? Or a Beneteau? Or a Volvo 60? (It will be the most expensive boat - who will pay? Will MNAs buy local fleets, but not until a few months before the Olympics? Then the same equipment will be retained until 2028)

I thought the L30 was to be the two person offshore keelboat?!

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4 minutes ago, spankoka said:

I thought the L30 was to be the two person offshore keelboat?!

If it is, then no mention was made at the last two World Sailing meetings.

Here's what Richard Gladwell wrote:

Quote

Losing the Arms Race

The Mixed Two Person Keelboat is described in polite circles as a "work in progress". One gets the feeling that there is a real element of "she'll be right on the night".

There is already a conflict between the poachers and gamekeepers, with the latter wishing to pursue a policy of preventing an "arms race" and the former, still lurking very much in the forest, but always looking to game the Event as much as possible - depending what rules the gamekeeper and their masters put in place.

The situation did not change at the Council meeting with the situation largely as reported from the previous day at the Equipment Committee click here.

The Board's Urgent submission changing the announcement date of the long list of classes deemed suitable by World Sailing for training and qualification to December 2020, with the expectation that some form of trialling or events would get underway soon afterwards. It was stated that already approaches had been made to World Sailing to host such events.

The date for the announcement of the offshore Olympic class was passed by 38-2 to be December 2023, despite reservations again being expressed as to whether that would be sufficient for the chosen builder to actually construct and have the boats pass acceptance testing for the Olympic Sailing Regatta in late July 2024.

From the floor came the suggestion that all sailors would have to sign a declaration that they had not previously sailed the Olympic offshore keelboat, naively ignored the fact that the sailors might have sailed boat before World Sailing drew its name out of the hat in December 2023.

The construction time issue was addressed by saying that the class could be announced before December 2023, but of course, an earlier date would make it even more attractive to buy or charter boats by the Sailing Super Powers and setting up camp in Marseille or a location which weather studies had shown to be similar.

One gets the impression that World Sailing has lost its self-styled Arms Race before it has even started.

Source = https://www.sail-world.com/news/217615/Laser-voted-in-for-2024-Paris-Olympic-Sailing

I can't even say whether or not the L30 is in the running!

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5 hours ago, bill4 said:

 

Curling is, in fact, a Winter Olympic sport. 

 

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3 hours ago, Gantt said:

 

 Yes, you are entirely right. Ben Ainslie would have almost certainly won medals in the Laser. So why did he bother changing?

Was he driven, at least in part, to be the best?

Do you really not know why Ben left the Laser?  Hint: It had nothing to do with 'being driven to be the best'.  He just didn't want to win silver.  

 

Here, I'll give you a hint:

 

 

 

 

Screen Shot 2019-05-20 at 4.13.18 PM.png

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3 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Do you really not know why Ben left the Laser?  Hint: It had nothing to do with 'being driven to be the best'.  He just didn't want to win silver.  

Here, I'll give you a hint

Screen Shot 2019-05-20 at 4.13.18 PM.png

Who's Robert Scheidt?

Oh. That guy!

So why did Robert Scheidt move to the Star? (And I might add, he and Bruno Prada did really well with a silver and a bronze).

How confident are you with this logic you are putting forward? Remember - I am saying that the prestige of the class is a part of the decision making process. Are you saying that all medals are equal in prestige? (I'd like them to be, but this is the real world, rather than some fantasy.)

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We'll never know. Ben moved in to a Finn and dominated. I think he and Giles dragged the standard up. 

Would Ben have been as dominant if he stayed in the Laser? Hard to tell. My feeling is probably not, but he was very much on the up in 2000. 

I think the Finn was a calculated move to ensure Olympic selection, success and the exposure that goes with it whilst also following his AC path., remembering that the AC crews were often filled with Finn and Star sailors and they could often find a decent training partner in their AC team and would sail them in spare time, in much the same way the current AC crop seem to run part time 49er / moth / A-Class campaigns training with their AC mates. 

Anyway, it would be stretch to suggest Ben moved to the Finn because he saw it as the pinnacle of sailing over the Laser. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Gantt said:

Who's Robert Scheidt?

 

So why did Robert Scheidt move to the Star?

 

Age

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

Age

...then he moved back? Age again?

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59 minutes ago, Gantt said:

...then he moved back? Age again?

It was in Rio ......and (you may not have noticed this), the Star was dropped from the Olympics.

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2 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

It was in Rio ......and (you may not have noticed this), the Star was dropped from the Olympics.

Yes, I definitely noticed it was Rio. Sailing the Star looks really intimidating. That's everything to do with the boat, right?

Interesting you should mention the Star being dropped. UK youth sail way back when was hard fought in Lasers by Iain and Bart (Iain won on a countback), with Ben a distant 3rd. All three won gold in 2008, then gold and two silvers in 2012. When Iain moved to the Star back in 2001/2, did he do it because his chances were higher? (Age again?) Are some saying that Iain's decision was something to do with Ben's? Bart's sailing the Finn was about size, but not Ben. But this is nothing to do with why the Finn should be returned in 2024.

The PRIMARY reason to bring the Finn back is because it is the best candidate to fill a hole made by removing the offshore keelboat event.

The new two person mixed offshore keelboat Olympic event is weird.

The offshore keelboat event has become a experiment in Olympic sailboat racing - it is a radical departure in race management and equipment selection procedures.  Offshore events are usually planned years in advance, so this is new to offshore keelboat racing too.

Welcome to the Olympic throwing event. You have been selected by your national authority because you are good at throwing stuff. We announce today, December 31, 2023 that next year's throwing event will be the throwing of the gumboot. Congratulations go to Ireland, the only country to coincidentally base their selection criteria on gumboot throwing. Good luck to your next six months of training (learning) this new event. 

For the Olympics, athletes indulge in years of the time honored ritual of self torture - which is a rite and a right, right?

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10 hours ago, Gantt said:

Your numbers are off. A small keeler will cost significantly more than the Narcra 17, and shipping them around the world will be significantly higher - you won't be able to pack a number of them into a single container.

World Sailing is highly concerned with cost, with providing an equitable contest in which more rather than fewer MNAs can compete.

This directly clashes with the philosophy of the Finn - where it is about sailing excellence - rather than a lottery made for the viewing pleasure. 

My point is not the cost comparison of boats, it is of whole campaigns, If I know someone running a $500k campaign with two Nacras over 4 years, it's probably only $600k to run that with a keel-boat. As they would only run one keel-boat, and use the relative competing countries equivalents in the mean time for qualification as you explained they wouldn't have the actual boats until 2023.

Why would world sailing be really that worried with cost? Just competing in these events runs costs up as high as the damn boats themselves. They say they are, but they really aren't.

And there we have it. Olympic Sailing exists for your viewing pleasure. On that basis, there is a genuine case to replace Super Bowl with Puppy Bowl - the viewing pleasure of the right socioeconomic groups make it viable, plus it it is more accessible to own a puppy than it is to play football.

I'm confused here, I own a puppy and he costs a damn lot more per year than fee's and equipment costs for football. Also ad rates for the super bowl are far higher per second than adds on puppy videos on youtube.

I'm just going to come right out and say it, the Finn is a shit boat, and I am ashamed of it. It is an archaic dog. Like the Optimist, I hope it dies. Both give sailing a shitty appearance.

This is the fucking Olympics, the apparent "Pinnacle". Boats Like the Moth, Foiling Cat, Planing Skiff and Planing Keelboat deserve to be the classes.

This should be the best of the best, the hardest of the hardest, the fastest of the fastest, an impressive feat to watch compete, as that is what the Olympics is, gladiators competing for a crowd to be crowned champion.

Seriously using the Finn is like having the guys doing the fencing using 30kg steel broad swords wearing 100kg of armour barely able to move.

If the Finn class and it's great philosophy of sailing is so amazing, then fuck off from the Olympics, and run your own world tour of the Finn and go around calling it the pinnacle of sailing. Oh wait the only reason the shitty class is still around is because it's been in the Olympics. Not for any other reason. It's literally the fattest slowest dinghy for fat men. Get off your god damn high horse.

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Darth,

A bit harsh... maybe

But on the money!

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Agreed as well, I like the idea of a new fencing category though. :D

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3 minutes ago, mad said:

Agreed as well, I like the idea of a new fencing category though. :D

I mean broad swords?   Damn it might be a lot more exciting than those silly little fencing foils.

I'm with you on this one mad.

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45 minutes ago, IPLore said:

I mean broad swords?   Damn it might be a lot more exciting than those silly little fencing foils.

I'm with you on this one mad.

Let’s go the whole way and get gladiator sports in the Olympics, Be a shit load more entertaining than sailing to watch. 

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8 hours ago, mad said:

Let’s go the whole way and get gladiator sports in the Olympics, Be a shit load more entertaining than sailing to watch. 

With Lions and Tridents and Nets ......OMG, I really think you are onto something mad.

 

Oh hang on!  I foresee a hitch.  What type of Trident would be used? We would have to form an evaluation panel and get a recommendation from an Equipment Committee. Its going to be a problem. The lions will clearly prefer blunt Tridents and the gladiators are going to want sharp ones with carbon shafts. Then we are going to have to review athletic suitability and universality. This wont be ready by 2024.

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

With Lions and Tridents and Nets ......OMG, I really think you are onto something mad.

 

Oh hang on!  I foresee a hitch.  What type of Trident would be used? We would have to form an evaluation panel and get a recommendation from an Equipment Committee. Its going to be a problem. The lions will clearly prefer blunt Tridents and the gladiators are going to want sharp ones with carbon shafts. Then we are going to have to review athletic suitability and universality. This wont be ready by 2024.

Will Finn sailors be allowed to fight the lions? 

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Going really fast and waiting for those ahead to make a handling error is as tactically exciting as watching grass grow.

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

With Lions and Tridents and Nets ......OMG, I really think you are onto something mad.

 

Oh hang on!  I foresee a hitch.  What type of Trident would be used? We would have to form an evaluation panel and get a recommendation from an Equipment Committee. Its going to be a problem. The lions will clearly prefer blunt Tridents and the gladiators are going to want sharp ones with carbon shafts. Then we are going to have to review athletic suitability and universality. This wont be ready by 2024.

The committee have one 8 hour day to fix the rules and equipment, if nothing is solved by lunchtime, drinking is obligatory for the last 4 hours, still no agreement?  They have to fight each other with what ever they have in front of them. 

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Or if we insist on keeping it nautical 

 

A0D0B999-292E-43A3-A414-21AA8C7B912A.jpeg

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"To replace the Finn in the Olympics would be the same as replacing the skis with snowboards in the alpine disciplines." Paul Elvstrom (1999)  

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"I really didn't say everything I said." - Paul Elvstrom

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15 minutes ago, tillerman said:

 

 

Video blocked.png

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Not many comments about the way world sailing are managing the event. 

Is everyone OK with the equipment being announced after selection in December 2023? Anyone?

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I'm not OK with it, It's just that I think it will be an anti-climatic announcement when they choose the L30.

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21 minutes ago, Gantt said:

Not many comments about the way world sailing are managing the event. 

Is everyone OK with the equipment being announced after selection in December 2023? Anyone?

Depends on whether there will be rum or not.

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21 hours ago, darth reapius said:

Seriously using the Finn is like having the guys doing the fencing using 30kg steel broad swords wearing 100kg of armour barely able to move.

I hear that is actually what the fencing guys are going to adopt to improve their TV ratings. 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Depends on whether there will be rum or not.

 

D8D09221-4D43-4EBB-8462-098FB6970B87.jpeg

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:

Will Finn sailors be allowed to fight the lions? 

No

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2 hours ago, Gantt said:

 

Is everyone OK with the equipment being announced after selection in December 2023? Anyone?

Yup. We’re fine with it.

 

I’ll be ready, I’ve been practicing in a J 105. 

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53 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

I’ll be ready, I’ve been practicing in a J 105

That's similar to a Mini 6.5 custom knockoff, based on the winning boat in the 2022 minitransat, right?

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On 5/20/2019 at 12:03 AM, Gantt said:

Is it just me, or do others consider the Finn to be THE premiere Olympic sailing event?!?

I am afraid the correct answer is that the 49er and 49erFX are the premiere Olympic sailing events.

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On 5/19/2019 at 7:03 PM, Gantt said:

Is it just me, or do others consider the Finn to be THE premiere Olympic sailing event?!?

 

 

It appears to be just you.

In order to become the Olympic men's single hander in 2024 it would have to displace the Laser. That aint going to happen.

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

It appears to be just you.

In order to become the Olympic men's single hander in 2024 it would have to displace the Laser. That aint going to happen.

Hmmm. What about this scenario? 

ILCA and LP and the other players fail to clear up the mess in Laser world by August 1 and so World Sailing go through with their threat to dump the Laser and Laser Radial from the Olympics. The obvious solution would be to replace the Laser and Radial with the RS Aero (which beat the Laser in the trials and was the overwhelming choice of the Equipment Committee.) But a lot of last-mint lobbying of Council members occurs based on this myth of the Finn being "THE premiere Olympic sailing event in the Olympics" and so they give the One Person Dinghy Men's spot to the Finn and the One Person Dinghy Women's spot to the RS Aero 6.

Is it just me, or do others consider this is at least a possible outcome?

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The IFA would have to be doing the lobbying for that to happen.  If the Finn is brilliant for the men, then the Europe should be the female boat. Otherwise, it's saying that a technical boat is good for men, but girls needed fewer strings to pull. 

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4 hours ago, spankoka said:

The IFA would have to be doing the lobbying for that to happen.  If the Finn is brilliant for the men, then the Europe should be the female boat. Otherwise, it's saying that a technical boat is good for men, but girls needed fewer strings to pull. 

How many strings to pull would the female sailors like? Has anybody asked them?

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I don't know about the strings, but the offshore boat better have an enclosed head. 

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1 hour ago, spankoka said:

I don't know about the strings, but the offshore boat better have an enclosed head. 

Are there any other Olympic sports where you get to go to the head while competing?

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The cycling road race. They always seem to be taking "Nature breaks" :D

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Baseball players can duck into the tunnel and go to the clubhouse just about any time they like. Next summer, they'll have the best heads Japanese technology can provide.

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6 hours ago, tillerman said:

Are there any other Olympic sports where you get to go to the head while competing?

Basketball and Tennis.

Waterpolo... I mean there's already blood in the water.

Weightlifting... Seen a few of them shit themselves going for records.

Surfing, is just a given, gotta turn the heaters on out there. Not many more pleasures like a warm pee into a a cold wet-suit.

6 hours ago, Jethrow said:

The cycling road race. They always seem to be taking "Nature breaks" :D

You mean they just soil themselves while competing as per normal? The marathon runners do that as well.

4 hours ago, spankoka said:

Baseball players can duck into the tunnel and go to the clubhouse just about any time they like. Next summer, they'll have the best heads Japanese technology can provide.

Isn't there some fake golf club or baseball bat which is actually a reservoir with a cap to piss into?

Also Japanese heads are amazing, I have one and it washes and blow-dries you, thus being a paperless system. 11/10 my ass-hole recommends. 

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21 hours ago, tillerman said:

Hmmm. What about this scenario? 

ILCA and LP and the other players fail to clear up the mess in Laser world by August 1 and so World Sailing go through with their threat to dump the Laser and Laser Radial from the Olympics. The obvious solution would be to replace the Laser and Radial with the RS Aero (which beat the Laser in the trials and was the overwhelming choice of the Equipment Committee.) But a lot of last-mint lobbying of Council members occurs based on this myth of the Finn being "THE premiere Olympic sailing event in the Olympics" and so they give the One Person Dinghy Men's spot to the Finn and the One Person Dinghy Women's spot to the RS Aero 6.

Is it just me, or do others consider this is at least a possible outcome?

I have this visual of Tiller and Gantt sitting on a hilltop overlooking the ocean, smoking weed together. Tiller passes the joint to Gantt, slowly lets his breath out and says:

”Then the council member from Canada would propose the Finn...and it would be like a done deal”

Gantt “ Yeah, that totally could happen. Serious scenario.” and then looking up at the sky in broad daylight pointing to a passing plane, “Whoaa Man, check out the shooting star”

 

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16 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Gantt “ Yeah, that totally could happen. Serious scenario.” and then looking up at the sky in broad daylight pointing to a passing plane, “Whoaa Man, check out the shooting star”

Whoaa! Serious coincidence. I was looking up in the sky last night and saw a shooting star. Landed safely though, and all the passengers were fine. :) 

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Don't worry about passing the joint Tillerman. Can I borrow your glasses?

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@tillerman "Why don't we do it in the road?" They answered that question in the very next song...

"Will I wait a [lonely] lifetime?  If you want me to, I will."

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An Olympic sailing thread has taken a musical scatological turn.  Hmmn.    Long before the current political maelstrom, the Brits, through Donovan, knew how to force a Brexit:

 

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Gantt and Tiller pondering the future of the Finn:

214155906_TillerandGanttponderingthefutureoftheFinn.jpg.09e593a953ba1516275c654b41df8b0f.jpg

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On 5/20/2019 at 4:14 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

Do you really not know why Ben left the Laser?  Hint: It had nothing to do with 'being driven to be the best'.  He just didn't want to win silver.  

 

Here, I'll give you a hint:

 

 

 

 

Screen Shot 2019-05-20 at 4.13.18 PM.png

looking at this I see the issue right away. that damn gustavo lima!!

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14 hours ago, dgmckim said:

looking at this I see the issue right away. that damn gustavo lima!!

Ha! Gustavo is getting good in the Stars. :) His technique downwind is pretty good! Also playing with Dragons, even winning the occasional race.

Meanwhile, think of the best three sailboat racers there have ever been.

Most people's selection include Paul Elvstrom and Ben Ainslie  who's reputation is tied to the Finn. Why is that?

I'm not saying there aren't others.

What I'm saying that I can name 10 Finn sailors who have oustanding sailing careers.

I can also name lots of offshore keelboat sailors, but who has the best sailboat racing record?

The Olympics is about celebrating excellence, not creating a lottery by announcing the boat after MNA selection.

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Ben Ainslie was only more successful in the Finn because he didn't have as much good competition.

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7 hours ago, Gantt said:



Meanwhile, think of the best three sailboat racers there have ever been.

 

Anna Tunnicliffe

Xu Lijia

Marit Bouwmeester
 

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

Anna Tunnicliffe

Xu Lijia

Marit Bouwmeester
 

Anna Tunnicliffe Tobias has recently joined a 49FX campaign with Paris Henken. They are showing some good sailing lately. 

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35 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

Ben Ainslie was only more successful in the Finn because he didn't have as much good competition.

I think it's kind of silly to compare the results of the top Finn and Laser sailers and conclude that one class or the other has less "good" competition.

Check out the results of the Finn Gold Cup that can be found in the link below paying attention to the years that Ben Ainslie was racing. I would say that that competition is equivalent to competition found in any Laser World's. Both classes are most definitely producing world-class sailers. 

https://finnclass.org/racing/results-archive/finn-gold-cup

While disappointing that the Finn has been removed from the Olympics, the class will most definitely survive in the same manner as Star. As was said by many when the Star was removed from the Olympics, "the Olympics needs the Star (Finn) more than the Star (Finn) needs the Olympics". Finn masters sailing globally attracts same number of participants as Laser masters sailing. Both classes serve well the needs of those who sail the boats.

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1 minute ago, Alan Crawford said:

I think it's kind of silly to compare the results of the top Finn and Laser sailers and conclude that one class or the other has less "good" competition.

Okay let me word it more clearly: Robert Scheidt didn't sail the Finn

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