Shootist Jeff

VR Flight Sim - OMFG!!!

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OK, after holding out for many years.... I finally took the plunge into VR flight siming  (and eventually FPS games).  I went whole hog and got the HTC Vive Pro, a top of the line gaming laptop (MSI Titan GT75 with the 2080 Graphics card) and the full set of flight controls.  I am just starting into the DCS World of combat flight sims with the F/A-18C Hornet and the A-10C Warthog offerings.

Ho

Lee

Fuk!

Its far better than I ever expected.  The realism of the experience is incredible.  The level of detail down to the worn and flecked paint in the cockpit is stunning.  Not ever having flown either a Hornet or the A-10, I can't say the flight model is perfect.  But the Hornet at least feels dead on for how a fighter in that class should feel and handle.  The visual scene both inside and outside the cockpit is stunning and I've numerous hundreds if not thousands of hours in multi-Million $$ military flight simulators that are not anywhere as realistic or immersive as this is.  

I was under the impression that VR was still pretty immature and still very "Gamey", but I'm starting to change my mind on this.  I can't imagine that VR is not the future of high end Military training & simulation.  The current method of putting someone in an immersive environment like this is to build a "dome" with 180-360 degree visual.  Which is ungodly expensive and requires a huge facility and infrastructure.  The $400 VR goggles I have now are as good as any I've seen so far.  

Back to the simulations themselves..... Holy shit, they are so detailed and realistic - I'm going to have to go back to a 6 month FTU/RAG course just to learn how to employ the damn things.  I can fly around easily enough.  Low level ridge crossing across the NV mountains north of Vegas are fun and I was even able to trap on the carrier within a couple of hours - after several bolters and numerous fiery ramp strikes.  I'm sure my scores from the LSO were not stellar :o .   But the ability to be able to do a strike in a high threat scenario is at the 0% level right now.  It would take me a month to learn all the Radar mech and settings, the Weapons page and the EW suite.  

Hey @Innocent Bystander, have you got a C-model Hornet Lot 20 NATOPS manual laying around I could borrow?  ;)  

 

 

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I remember the flight sim for the Atari.  Pretty much the same, right Jeff?  :-P

 

I really sucked at that, no way you want me flying your plane in this sim.  I'd burn up all the pixels.

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can ya get a 737 Max8 on there?

 

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12 minutes ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

can ya get a 737 Max8 on there?

 

I’m sure you can, but it will just keep crashing. 

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In the early years of F/A18 F/A18 Hughes built the RADAR and a flight simulator. The simulator was a complete cockpit centered in a huge 50-80 foot diameter (?) dome.  Ground, horizon, sky, targets were projected in the dome and all surface visible from the cockpit was the dome interior and equidistant in all directions. The cockpit controls positioned ypu on the space. Pull back and the horizon falls away. Pull harder and rams on the framework simulated buffeting. The pilot is really controlling the airplane. Instructors in another area fly targets at you. Ypu have all the comms, radar and weapons at your fingertips on stick and throttle. I was called over for cockpit duty often as the engineering staff directed me through weapons and radar modes to calibrate the system and projector response. When they flew targets at me I died pretty quickly until they gave me some pointers. As a non pilot, it was pretty intense, a $50million dollar video game. I had had an interest in civilian aviation up to that point, driving a Cessna has no interest now.

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4 hours ago, warbird said:

In the early years of F/A18 F/A18 Hughes built the RADAR and a flight simulator. The simulator was a complete cockpit centered in a huge 50-80 foot diameter (?) dome.  Ground, horizon, sky, targets were projected in the dome and all surface visible from the cockpit was the dome interior and equidistant in all directions. The cockpit controls positioned ypu on the space. Pull back and the horizon falls away. Pull harder and rams on the framework simulated buffeting. The pilot is really controlling the airplane. Instructors in another area fly targets at you. Ypu have all the comms, radar and weapons at your fingertips on stick and throttle. I was called over for cockpit duty often as the engineering staff directed me through weapons and radar modes to calibrate the system and projector response. When they flew targets at me I died pretty quickly until they gave me some pointers. As a non pilot, it was pretty intense, a $50million dollar video game. I had had an interest in civilian aviation up to that point, driving a Cessna has no interest now.

Friend of mine works for Flight Safety with the Gulfstream GIII, GIV, GV, G450, G550 and G650 training programs.  Tells me their simulators are on par with with some of the military stuff with the exception of the "yank and bank crap..."   Tells me "inverted flying a G650 will not make the billionaire in the back very happy..."

Got a tour one day.. some serious toys...

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

can ya get a 737 Max8 on there?

 

sure but the MCAS will not work.  Just like the real simulator from Boeing...

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/05/20/737_max_flight_simulators_not_accurate_report/

 

 

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13 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

OK, after holding out for many years.... I finally took the plunge into VR flight siming  (and eventually FPS games).  I went whole hog and got the HTC Vive Pro, a top of the line gaming laptop (MSI Titan GT75 with the 2080 Graphics card) and the full set of flight controls.  I am just starting into the DCS World of combat flight sims with the F/A-18C Hornet and the A-10C Warthog offerings.

Ho

Lee

Fuk!

Its far better than I ever expected.  The realism of the experience is incredible.  The level of detail down to the worn and flecked paint in the cockpit is stunning.  Not ever having flown either a Hornet or the A-10, I can't say the flight model is perfect.  But the Hornet at least feels dead on for how a fighter in that class should feel and handle.  The visual scene both inside and outside the cockpit is stunning and I've numerous hundreds if not thousands of hours in multi-Million $$ military flight simulators that are not anywhere as realistic or immersive as this is.  

I was under the impression that VR was still pretty immature and still very "Gamey", but I'm starting to change my mind on this.  I can't imagine that VR is not the future of high end Military training & simulation.  The current method of putting someone in an immersive environment like this is to build a "dome" with 180-360 degree visual.  Which is ungodly expensive and requires a huge facility and infrastructure.  The $400 VR goggles I have now are as good as any I've seen so far.  

Back to the simulations themselves..... Holy shit, they are so detailed and realistic - I'm going to have to go back to a 6 month FTU/RAG course just to learn how to employ the damn things.  I can fly around easily enough.  Low level ridge crossing across the NV mountains north of Vegas are fun and I was even able to trap on the carrier within a couple of hours - after several bolters and numerous fiery ramp strikes.  I'm sure my scores from the LSO were not stellar :o .   But the ability to be able to do a strike in a high threat scenario is at the 0% level right now.  It would take me a month to learn all the Radar mech and settings, the Weapons page and the EW suite.  

Hey @Innocent Bystander, have you got a C-model Hornet Lot 20 NATOPS manual laying around I could borrow?  ;)  

 

 

Can you smoke the Burg for us in your Hornet and record it for us?

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In a previous life, I was the PM for all Naval Aviation Training Systems and one of the things we did was to move from “heavy iron” mainframe computer and video systems to PC based to leverage the investment in the gaming industry.  With reusable common visual and threat  databases and some common flyout models, we brought prices down to about 25% of what they had been without giving up fidelity.  Biggest issue wasn’t general “reality” of the displays but incorporating the full suite or weapon and system capabilities, including helmet mounted sites, night vision capabilities, threat (other aircraft and threat weapon) realism and then linking 4 or more geographically separated sims together in realistic “many vs many” scenarios.  Got to the point where network latency caused by distance became an issue (at 160 ms, you have to use some predictive algorithms to keep relative motion smooth).  Domes went to laser displays and then we moved back to cockpit mounted displays for cost reasons without compromising the display quality.  Moved into “live-virtual-constructive” training environments.  Successful enough that we started including simulators in the training cycle to supplement, and in some places replace flight time.  The battle space integration that makes up today’s air warfare environment is really hard to replicate in real life without large scale and expensive exercises.  Better for a section or division to hone their basic skills in simulation than put an entire battle group underway so Lt Bagadonuts can learn the basics.  

From a VR Standpoint, the tech guys in industry and the Navy Training System folks in Orlando started working some early VR goggles and the the tech guys started using “augmented reality” that brought simulations into the real world.  Think fire fighting training on a real ship with simulated fire hot spots displayed in a set of goggles, FPS style in a real environment.  That tech now exists in real firefighting thermal goggles that can “look through” smoke and see the fire source. Was a time of really rapid tech development once we all started leveraging the gaming development investment. 

Watch a kid learn a video game.  They are experiential learners.  You need to give them enough fidelity to suspend disbelief and they start learning.  

Commercial sims (FAA Level D) are routinely used to replace flight time as airliners are just not routinely used to teach First Officer Schmuck how to fly a single engine approach in bad weather.  Although experience pilots, most airline “first flights” in type occur with people in the back so the simulators have to be good and they are.

Left that world close to 15 years ago and both the aircraft and the training systems have continued to progress.  Jeff’s toy now would have cost $4-5M back then.  

 

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Maybe it's time for me to finally break down and get a gaming computer.... I bet I could knock Jeff down a peg or two on some 1v1 

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You should check out VR Regatta from MarineVerse.  It is pretty cool

 

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On 5/20/2019 at 10:22 PM, mustang__1 said:

Maybe it's time for me to finally break down and get a gaming computer.... I bet I could knock Jeff down a peg or two on some 1v1 

Remember, strictly one-design.

You do NOT want to get involved with lobbying the Rating Committee on this sort of thing.......

-DSK

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On 5/21/2019 at 5:09 AM, Innocent Bystander said:

In a previous life, I was the PM for all Naval Aviation Training Systems and one of the things we did was to move from “heavy iron” mainframe computer and video systems to PC based to leverage the investment in the gaming industry.  With reusable common visual and threat  databases and some common flyout models, we brought prices down to about 25% of what they had been without giving up fidelity.  Biggest issue wasn’t general “reality” of the displays but incorporating the full suite or weapon and system capabilities, including helmet mounted sites, night vision capabilities, threat (other aircraft and threat weapon) realism and then linking 4 or more geographically separated sims together in realistic “many vs many” scenarios.  Got to the point where network latency caused by distance became an issue (at 160 ms, you have to use some predictive algorithms to keep relative motion smooth).  Domes went to laser displays and then we moved back to cockpit mounted displays for cost reasons without compromising the display quality.  Moved into “live-virtual-constructive” training environments.  Successful enough that we started including simulators in the training cycle to supplement, and in some places replace flight time.  The battle space integration that makes up today’s air warfare environment is really hard to replicate in real life without large scale and expensive exercises.  Better for a section or division to hone their basic skills in simulation than put an entire battle group underway so Lt Bagadonuts can learn the basics.  

From a VR Standpoint, the tech guys in industry and the Navy Training System folks in Orlando started working some early VR goggles and the the tech guys started using “augmented reality” that brought simulations into the real world.  Think fire fighting training on a real ship with simulated fire hot spots displayed in a set of goggles, FPS style in a real environment.  That tech now exists in real firefighting thermal goggles that can “look through” smoke and see the fire source. Was a time of really rapid tech development once we all started leveraging the gaming development investment. 

Watch a kid learn a video game.  They are experiential learners.  You need to give them enough fidelity to suspend disbelief and they start learning.  

Commercial sims (FAA Level D) are routinely used to replace flight time as airliners are just not routinely used to teach First Officer Schmuck how to fly a single engine approach in bad weather.  Although experience pilots, most airline “first flights” in type occur with people in the back so the simulators have to be good and they are.

Left that world close to 15 years ago and both the aircraft and the training systems have continued to progress.  Jeff’s toy now would have cost $4-5M back then.  

 

Thanks IB.  Good stuff.  I've been digging through youtube tutorials on how to get the most out of flying this beast.  I ran across this fairly long clip and was fascinated by the ability of likely non-pilots to pick up the nuances of carrier ops.  I'm curious what you think.  Start at about 7:45 if you want to skip some.  Or go to 12:30 for the first break over the boat.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQUbUP9SN64

I think what amazes me the most is that 3-4 dudes can fly a high fidelity simulator, in real time, in a virtual environment, see each other, talk to each other, fly formation - all from the comfort of their living room.

I haven't gotten that far, but apparently the threat simulation and weapons delivery simulations are quite realistic.  There is a new patch out now introducing JDAM and some various other bits of kit. 

 

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Does anybody has experience with VR flight simulators, but not for fighter jets, rather for (booooring) commercial planes?

I am learning to fly, and I have done everything so far in actual planes, but I would like to improve my skills, and get ready for the next plane, potentially at a lower cost...

Any direct personal experience is welcome!

Thanks

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Thanks IB.  Good stuff.  I've been digging through youtube tutorials on how to get the most out of flying this beast.  I ran across this fairly long clip and was fascinated by the ability of likely non-pilots to pick up the nuances of carrier ops.  I'm curious what you think.  Start at about 7:45 if you want to skip some.  Or go to 12:30 for the first break over the boat.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQUbUP9SN64

I think what amazes me the most is that 3-4 dudes can fly a high fidelity simulator, in real time, in a virtual environment, see each other, talk to each other, fly formation - all from the comfort of their living room.

I haven't gotten that far, but apparently the threat simulation and weapons delivery simulations are quite realistic.  There is a new patch out now introducing JDAM and some various other bits of kit. 

 

Looking forward, that seems like a wonderful training tool and a heck of a lot of fun besides..... however, looking back: I want a Lancaster modded for the Dambusters mission!

-DSK

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

 

I think what amazes me the most is that 3-4 dudes can fly a high fidelity simulator, in real time, in a virtual environment, see each other, talk to each other, fly formation - all from the comfort of their living room.

 

 

You don't have teenagers and an X-Box in the house do you? 

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52 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

You don't have teenagers and an X-Box in the house do you? 

NOOOOO!  Thank the gods!

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I think what amazes me the most is that 3-4 dudes can fly a high fidelity simulator, in real time, in a virtual environment, see each other, talk to each other, fly formation - all from the comfort of their living room.

And I meant to add - at <$1K all for what would be $10s of millions of dollars in a Mil flight sim doing DMO.  

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3 hours ago, Laurent said:

Does anybody has experience with VR flight simulators, but not for fighter jets, rather for (booooring) commercial planes?

I am learning to fly, and I have done everything so far in actual planes, but I would like to improve my skills, and get ready for the next plane, potentially at a lower cost...

Any direct personal experience is welcome!

Thanks

Best advice I can give - as someone who spent a lot of time playing flight simulators as a kid.... they don't teach you how to fly. They can teach you how to operate and communicate. I think that when you move on to IFR training the ability to practice procedures, GPS programming, and communication, is invaluable.... but for the PPL - just focus on flying. 

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Remember, strictly one-design.

You do NOT want to get involved with lobbying the Rating Committee on this sort of thing.......

-DSK

I was thinking of converting one of my business servers into a gaming computer... would that be frowned upon? 

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1 minute ago, mustang__1 said:

I was thinking of converting one of my business servers into a gaming computer... would that be frowned upon? 

Gives you -3 on your armor class, IIRC

I'm only toying with the idea of getting a real game system, this sounds like a real hoot. But the real world is still plenty of fun and I'm not getting enough sailing in, as it is

-DSK

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Gives you -3 on your armor class, IIRC

I'm only toying with the idea of getting a real game system, this sounds like a real hoot. But the real world is still plenty of fun and I'm not getting enough sailing in, as it is

-DSK

that's my issue. Any free time I have I'm usually either sailing or climbing these days, or fucking working. Or studying something in preparation for work. Never thought I'd go this long without a gaming computer - was 100% sure i'd get one with my first few paychecks out of college..... oh well - 6 years to the day was this past weekend. 

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Just now, mustang__1 said:

that's my issue. Any free time I have I'm usually either sailing or climbing these days, or fucking working. Or studying something in preparation for work. Never thought I'd go this long without a gaming computer - was 100% sure i'd get one with my first few paychecks out of college..... oh well - 6 years to the day was this past weekend. 

Time only passes more quickly as more of it goes by.

Get it while you can!!

I had a LOT of fun on the older generation of flight sims, although I didn't really get into the military versions as much. Stuff like using the camera view to fly between the World Trade Center towers (kind of spooky in retrospect). Peanut gallery comments like "You're gonna owe Farmer Brown a lot of money for all that wheat"

-DSK

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13 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:
18 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Gives you -3 on your armor class, IIRC

I'm only toying with the idea of getting a real game system, this sounds like a real hoot. But the real world is still plenty of fun and I'm not getting enough sailing in, as it is

-DSK

that's my issue. Any free time I have I'm usually either sailing or climbing these days, or fucking working. Or studying something in preparation for work. Never thought I'd go this long without a gaming computer - was 100% sure i'd get one with my first few paychecks out of college..... oh well - 6 years to the day was this past weekend. 

I'm of two minds on this.  I used to play a fair amount of gaming - mostly Mil flight sims, but I got bored with it fairly quickly mainly because of the 2D flat panel nature and not being able to look around.  I swore off flight sim'ing until VR was mature enough that I could "fly" seamlessly like I could in some of the big $$ domed sims I was used to training in in the USAF.  I think that was over 15 years ago when VR was just beginning to be discussed and was not much more than a concept.  Probably closer to 20 yrs.  

As I said, I held out but finally took the plunge again and do not regret it.  Its not perfect, but its damn close.  The immersiveness is stunning.  

It will be great for me over the summer.  We've mostly parked the boats as its starting to get too hot to sail and there's not much else to do outside when its 120F.  :D

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36 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

Best advice I can give - as someone who spent a lot of time playing flight simulators as a kid.... they don't teach you how to fly. They can teach you how to operate and communicate. I think that when you move on to IFR training the ability to practice procedures, GPS programming, and communication, is invaluable.... but for the PPL - just focus on flying. 

Well, I already got my PPL and IFR...

Working on my Commercial and just passed 2 of the Progress Checks, but nevertheless, I am upset that I still make F£&#$ing mistakes like not holding enough a straight line on a VOR radial and such... bad habit of spending too much time the nose down on the iPad to check the map, or fidgeting with the radio setting up frequencies, etc.

I was wondering if spending time on a VR simulator, and checking afterwards actual route could be a way to improve on my routine of staying on top of the instruments scan...

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3 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I'm of two minds on this.  I used to play a fair amount of gaming - mostly Mil flight sims, but I got bored with it fairly quickly mainly because of the 2D flat panel nature and not being able to look around.  I swore off flight sim'ing until VR was mature enough that I could "fly" seamlessly like I could in some of the big $$ domed sims I was used to training in in the USAF.  I think that was over 15 years ago when VR was just beginning to be discussed and was not much more than a concept.  Probably closer to 20 yrs.  

As I said, I held out but finally took the plunge again and do not regret it.  Its not perfect, but its damn close.  The immersiveness is stunning.  

It will be great for me over the summer.  We've mostly parked the boats as its starting to get too hot to sail and there's not much else to do outside when its 120F.  :D

My desire to play civ flight sims was killed by flying for real. I kept playing some mil sims like Janes FA18, but that became too hard to maintain on newer computers, and DCS has always been just out of reach for my laptops. Maybe its time to pick it up though... if for no other reason than to see if i can kick your ass. How is the resolution - can you read gauges without needing to zoom in excessively? 

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3 minutes ago, Laurent said:

Well, I already got my PPL and IFR...

Working on my Commercial and just passed 2 of the Progress Checks, but nevertheless, I am upset that I still make F£&#$ing mistakes like not holding enough a straight line on a VOR radial and such... bad habit of spending too much time the nose down on the iPad to check the map, or fidgeting with the radio setting up frequencies, etc.

I was wondering if spending time on a VR simulator, and checking afterwards actual route could be a way to improve on my routine of staying on top of the instruments scan...

Yeah it'll help with the scan  - considering you have no other feedback. Get a good yoke. Can't recommend one - i just hated my old CH yoke since it had a very large deadzone and had a.... sticky shaft. As for the scan - yeah, just practice. If they'll let you use the autopilot too  - i see no shame in that once you have your IR (that said, 95% of my practice IMC is hand flown, since if the shit hits the fan i don't want to be reliant on a 1980's transistor logic "computer")

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10 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

My desire to play civ flight sims was killed by flying for real. I kept playing some mil sims like Janes FA18, but that became too hard to maintain on newer computers, and DCS has always been just out of reach for my laptops. Maybe its time to pick it up though... if for no other reason than to see if i can kick your ass. How is the resolution - can you read gauges without needing to zoom in excessively? 

Bring it bitch!  Hi Aspect ACM.  Gunz only.

Yes, the resolution is quite good.  But I sprung for the Vive Pro goggles which are double the resolution of the basic ones.  I can read all the MPDs and switches on the up front controller fine but sometimes I need to lean in a bit to read some of the console switch labels down on the sides.  

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

NOOOOO!  Thank the gods!

Welcome to my hell :D

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On 5/20/2019 at 7:22 PM, mustang__1 said:

Maybe it's time for me to finally break down and get a gaming computer.... I bet I could knock Jeff down a peg or two on some 1v1 

No offence Sport, but I think I'd have to put my wager down on Old Age and Treachery for this one 

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1 hour ago, mustang__1 said:

that's my issue. Any free time I have I'm usually either sailing or climbing these days, or fucking working. Or studying something in preparation for work. Never thought I'd go this long without a gaming computer - was 100% sure i'd get one with my first few paychecks out of college..... oh well - 6 years to the day was this past weekend. 

Work? What is this...........”work”?

Agree though......I still have WAY too many things I do outside and in the garage to sit in front of the TV/Computer very much. Ever heard of Festool? Now that’s where my money goes......and Classic Hardwoods........and West Marine......and Roger Dunn........and Harbour Surfboards.....and REI........and Belmont Music Studio. Maybe if I lived where it’s 170 degrees outside.....or minus 50.......I might take a swat at it. 

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33 minutes ago, Dorado said:

No offence Sport, but I think I'd have to put my wager down on Old Age and Treachery for this one 

What I lack in skill i make for in injenuity 

 

49 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Bring it bitch!  Hi Aspect ACM.  Gunz only.

Yes, the resolution is quite good.  But I sprung for the Vive Pro goggles which are double the resolution of the basic ones.  I can read all the MPDs and switches on the up front controller fine but sometimes I need to lean in a bit to read some of the console switch labels down on the sides.  

Yer on. If i don't fly a few hours so i can afford the damn computer... But saying you can read the MPD is making it mighty tempting - but damn those are expensive goggles! sigh. 

 

31 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Work? What is this...........”work”?

Agree though......I still have WAY too many things I do outside and in the garage to sit in front of the TV/Computer very much. Ever heard of Festool? Now that’s where my money goes......and Classic Hardwoods........and West Marine......and Roger Dunn........and Harbour Surfboards.....and REI........and Belmont Music Studio. Maybe if I lived where it’s 170 degrees outside.....or minus 50.......I might take a swat at it. 

Got that minus 50 thing going over at least part of the year... but i climbed nearly every weekend. Thankfully the local cliff gets a lot of sun all winter. 

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2 hours ago, Laurent said:

Well, I already got my PPL and IFR...

Working on my Commercial and just passed 2 of the Progress Checks, but nevertheless, I am upset that I still make F£&#$ing mistakes like not holding enough a straight line on a VOR radial and such... bad habit of spending too much time the nose down on the iPad to check the map, or fidgeting with the radio setting up frequencies, etc.

I was wondering if spending time on a VR simulator, and checking afterwards actual route could be a way to improve on my routine of staying on top of the instruments scan...

Are you a "child of the magnetta line?" If I may suggest, fly with out your iPad for a while and go old school with some paper. Here is something one my friends put together for our local area.... pretty handy.  

If not, then get a yoke or suction mount for your iPad and keep it eye level... 

As for a sim...  this was state of the art when I did my instrument...  today, I can find these at the Goodwill store..  :lol:

... 

image.png

Local Frequencies.xls

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Bring it bitch!  Hi Aspect ACM.  Gunz only.

Yes, the resolution is quite good.  But I sprung for the Vive Pro goggles which are double the resolution of the basic ones.  I can read all the MPDs and switches on the up front controller fine but sometimes I need to lean in a bit to read some of the console switch labels down on the sides.  

In a parallel universe, how could you have virtual sex with the playmate of the year, if you already had it with the real thing? 

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22 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

Are you a "child of the magnetta line?" If I may suggest, fly with out your iPad for a while and go old school with some paper. Here is something one my friends put together for our local area.... pretty handy.  

If not, then get a yoke or suction mount for your iPad and keep it eye level... 

As for a sim...  this was state of the art when I did my instrument...  today, I can find these at the Goodwill store..

... 

image.png

Local Frequencies.xls

Thanks for that! (no, seriously...)

I found a video here explaining "child of the magenta line" thing...

https://vimeo.com/159496346

That's not exactly my problem. It is just that I would like to have a much tighter flight path, and my instrument scan is not sharp enough yet... even if it not specifically (or only) because of automation.

Sorry for the thread high-jack...

 

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12 hours ago, nacradriver said:

In a parallel universe, how could you have virtual sex with the playmate of the year, if you already had it with the real thing? 

That’s a great point and I’ve given that some thought. Mainly it’s why I put away the computer games for so long. Well that and I was fucking busy all the time and away from home for a lot of it  

I guess it’s a realization having real sex with the playmate of the year was a long time ago and you know you’re never going to bang her again. But you enjoyed it - A LOT!   the sound, the taste, the smell, the feel, the view while you’re in the saddle and you miss it. So if dabbling with a virtual Playmate gets you 80% of the fun without all the attendant dramas, you might be willing to take it for a test drive ;)

 

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12 hours ago, Laurent said:

Thanks for that! (no, seriously...)

I found a video here explaining "child of the magenta line" thing...

https://vimeo.com/159496346

 

 

That's not exactly my problem. It is just that I would like to have a much tighter flight path, and my instrument scan is not sharp enough yet... even if it not specifically (or only) because of automation.

Sorry for the thread high-jack...

 

To continue the hijack, IMHO automation is becoming the death of good airmanship. Don’t get me wrong, cockpit automation has made aviation safer and more efficient. But I think we are rapidly approaching a point of not only diminishing returns but actual negative results as pilots become more and more reliant on cockpit automation and use it as a crutch and struggle when they are then forced to hand fly it. New airline pilots coming out of the purely civilian world are the biggest culprits, but even young Mil pilots are starting to suffer this affliction as well. 

Mad an example, I was at a shooting course recently in Vegas and the older gentleman next to me was an ex Navy Tomcat pilot and Delta 737 captain. I think it was Delta. Anywho, he was one of their senior check pilots. And we were talking about the recent 737 Max crash in Ethiopia  he said there is no way either of the MAx’s should have crashed. He said the autopilot affected by the sensor issue relies on the aircraft trim system. With full runaway trim I.e. max pitch trim up or down, the aircraft is still controllable. He said the fix for the Max 8 issue in both cases was for the PF to maintain control by just muscling the yoke while the Co pulls the trim circuit breaker to disable the trim system and stop the auto pilot from pitching the nose down. He said that (runaway pitch trim) is something that is taught in ALL 737 model Emergency sim training and that both the Air Asia and Ethiopian pilots should have been able to maintain control. But he opined that because they are so used to letting HAL fly the jet, they probably were baffled by what to do all the to the ground.  The Air France 447 and the Asians crash at SFO are also perfect examples of over-reliance on automation. 

I force my students now to take off the AP on every sortie and hand fly the airplane for a while. The newer ones sometimes look at me like I have horns growing out of my forehead and they have this look of fear like the airplane is going to suddenly fall out of the sky. I actually had one female student recently ask if I was sure it was ok to disconnect the AP. And even when I said yes, she was still hesitant like something bad would happen. <facepalm>

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

To continue the hijack, IMHO automation is becoming the death of good airmanship. Don’t get me wrong, cockpit automation has made aviation safer and more efficient. But I think we are rapidly approaching a point of not only diminishing returns but actual negative results as pilots become more and more reliant on cockpit automation and use it as a crutch and struggle when they are then forced to hand fly it. New airline pilots coming out of the purely civilian world are the biggest culprits, but even young Mil pilots are starting to suffer this affliction as well. 

Mad an example, I was at a shooting course recently in Vegas and the older gentleman next to me was an ex Navy Tomcat pilot and Delta 737 captain. I think it was Delta. Anywho, he was one of their senior check pilots. And we were talking about the recent 737 Max crash in Ethiopia  he said there is no way either of the MAx’s should have crashed. He said the autopilot affected by the sensor issue relies on the aircraft trim system. With full runaway trim I.e. max pitch trim up or down, the aircraft is still controllable. He said the fix for the Max 8 issue in both cases was for the PF to maintain control by just muscling the yoke while the Co pulls the trim circuit breaker to disable the trim system and stop the auto pilot from pitching the nose down. He said that (runaway pitch trim) is something that is taught in ALL 737 model Emergency sim training and that both the Air Asia and Ethiopian pilots should have been able to maintain control. But he opined that because they are so used to letting HAL fly the jet, they probably were baffled by what to do all the to the ground.  The Air France 447 and the Asians crash at SFO are also perfect examples of over-reliance on automation. 

I force my students now to take off the AP on every sortie and hand fly the airplane for a while. The newer ones sometimes look at me like I have horns growing out of my forehead and they have this look of fear like the airplane is going to suddenly fall out of the sky. I actually had one female student recently ask if I was sure it was ok to disconnect the AP. And even when I said yes, she was still hesitant like something bad would happen. <facepalm>

There are some videos out of pilots in the sim having a beyond difficult time controlling the airplane when put in a similar state as the Ethiopian plane. At the end of the day, Boeing is, in my opinion, culpable for having a single point of failure system that could have an impact on safety of flight. Not disabling the system due to an AoA disagree is just..... mind blowing. Should they have been able to prevent dying due to its failure? yeah - but they're also the last line of defense against physics killing them - the chain of events should have ended before it got to them. 

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17 hours ago, nacradriver said:

Welcome to my hell :D

It was my hell too, until recently. A few months ago I finally got fed up and traded it with my 12 yo son for a Yamaha TTR110. Now he comes home from school and gears up almost every day to ride for an hour or two. In related news, hell has frozen over and his mom is encouraging me to get a bike to ride with him. Happy days.

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

To continue the hijack, IMHO automation is becoming the death of good airmanship. Don’t get me wrong, cockpit automation has made aviation safer and more efficient. But I think we are rapidly approaching a point of not only diminishing returns but actual negative results as pilots become more and more reliant on cockpit automation and use it as a crutch and struggle when they are then forced to hand fly it. New airline pilots coming out of the purely civilian world are the biggest culprits, but even young Mil pilots are starting to suffer this affliction as well. 

Mad an example, I was at a shooting course recently in Vegas and the older gentleman next to me was an ex Navy Tomcat pilot and Delta 737 captain. I think it was Delta. Anywho, he was one of their senior check pilots. And we were talking about the recent 737 Max crash in Ethiopia  he said there is no way either of the MAx’s should have crashed. He said the autopilot affected by the sensor issue relies on the aircraft trim system. With full runaway trim I.e. max pitch trim up or down, the aircraft is still controllable. He said the fix for the Max 8 issue in both cases was for the PF to maintain control by just muscling the yoke while the Co pulls the trim circuit breaker to disable the trim system and stop the auto pilot from pitching the nose down. He said that (runaway pitch trim) is something that is taught in ALL 737 model Emergency sim training and that both the Air Asia and Ethiopian pilots should have been able to maintain control. But he opined that because they are so used to letting HAL fly the jet, they probably were baffled by what to do all the to the ground.  The Air France 447 and the Asians crash at SFO are also perfect examples of over-reliance on automation. 

I force my students now to take off the AP on every sortie and hand fly the airplane for a while. The newer ones sometimes look at me like I have horns growing out of my forehead and they have this look of fear like the airplane is going to suddenly fall out of the sky. I actually had one female student recently ask if I was sure it was ok to disconnect the AP. And even when I said yes, she was still hesitant like something bad would happen. <facepalm>

Years ago while chomping on a $100 cheeseburger the guy at the table next to me was bragging abort the attributes of the new fanged thing call a hand held GPS... he was showing the other guy all the course information, map, the frequency info and all the other bells a whistles...    After all the infomercial was over the other guy asked if could look at it...  turned it over took the batteries out and handed it back to him and said "now get us home.."  the guy that owned the GPS turned sheet white...   I am assuming this was a student and an instructor on their X-county flight..

Just the other day, I was flying safety pilot with a guy, that is working on his IFR.... the plane we were in had not one but two Garmin 430.... one WAAS on the other not...  He was doing the LDA-C into KVNY with VTU as the IAF as this is one of the approaches our local DPE likes to use..    Just as Pt Mugu Approach turned us to intersect the inbound course off the VOR I covered up both GPS screens and asked for his iPad and put it in plane mode....    Things got a little a squirreley at first but the lad recovered pretty quick and actually pulled it off..  We did the VOR 26 back into KCMA and he nailed it with no GPS... His comment to me was... this is so much easier than programing and checking and programing and checking the GPS, and that DME thingy is effing kewl..."  I didn't have the heart to tell he can get the approach plates for free on line and print them out...  He had the full tilt boogie Foreflight subscription  with the Jepps package... 

Sometimes the 70 year technology really does make things easy..

On the other hand, I am booked for ten hours of sim time to learn the G1000 panel next month...  this is going to be interesting... :)

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http://www.condorsoaring.com/about/

 

Have a look at this soaring sim. I used it when I was doing my glider training and the instructors at my club gave me a lot of shit about it. Now they have a complete trainer made from an actual sailplane (Blanik L-13 which was grounded) using the same program in the clubhouse and it is a big part of their training process.

 

http://blog.allen.asn.au/category/condor2-soaring-simulator/

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21 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

Years ago while chomping on a $100 cheeseburger the guy at the table next to me was bragging abort the attributes of the new fanged thing call a hand held GPS... he was showing the other guy all the course information, map, the frequency info and all the other bells a whistles...    After all the infomercial was over the other guy asked if could look at it...  turned it over took the batteries out and handed it back to him and said "now get us home.."  the guy that owned the GPS turned sheet white...   I am assuming this was a student and an instructor on their X-county flight..

Just the other day, I was flying safety pilot with a guy, that is working on his IFR.... the plane we were in had not one but two Garmin 430.... one WAAS on the other not...  He was doing the LDA-C into KVNY with VTU as the IAF as this is one of the approaches our local DPE likes to use..    Just as Pt Mugu Approach turned us to intersect the inbound course off the VOR I covered up both GPS screens and asked for his iPad and put it in plane mode....    Things got a little a squirreley at first but the lad recovered pretty quick and actually pulled it off..  We did the VOR 26 back into KCMA and he nailed it with no GPS... His comment to me was... this is so much easier than programing and checking and programing and checking the GPS, and that DME thingy is effing kewl..."  I didn't have the heart to tell he can get the approach plates for free on line and print them out...  He had the full tilt boogie Foreflight subscription  with the Jepps package... 

Sometimes the 70 year technology really does make things easy..

On the other hand, I am booked for ten hours of sim time to learn the G1000 panel next month...  this is going to be interesting... :)

The funny thing is how much more comfortable I am going 1980's in the cockpit than my dad is. It's very easy to lose SA if you only know where you are because of the picture and not how the needles are pointing in relation to a navaid or gps waypoint. 

We did a flight up to Blairstown the other day - my ipad was dead so we pulled out the paper charts (i keep some in my flight bag even though they're a couple years old) while it was charging up. Took a minute for both of us to remember how to fucking fold the thing properly. Was fun banging a left at the river, a right at the water gap, and finding the runway. Back when i only rented that was how i always did it since i wasn't going to pony up for the 172 with the 430!  I did a VOR radial crossing hold on the way back for my IFR currency - been a while since i did one of those but the foreflight path was pretty well perfect. It's important to know the automation, including the autopilot... when the shits for real i'm using every tool available to me and i want to know how they work and their failure modes - but it definitely takes more practice to do everything by hand. Have fun with the G1000 - i still haven't flown glass! 

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30 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

Years ago while chomping on a $100 cheeseburger the guy at the table next to me was bragging abort the attributes of the new fanged thing call a hand held GPS... he was showing the other guy all the course information, map, the frequency info and all the other bells a whistles...    After all the infomercial was over the other guy asked if could look at it...  turned it over took the batteries out and handed it back to him and said "now get us home.."  the guy that owned the GPS turned sheet white...   I am assuming this was a student and an instructor on their X-county flight..

I'm no pilot but this resonates with me. I am an absolute expert at reading and following topographic maps with only a compass and and a pair of bino's. That's how I learned and used it so much its second nature. Being a bit of a Luddite at heart, I was not quick to embrace GPS in that environment. The FD bought us all one, gave us classes........yeah whatever, I still carried my maps. Eventually though I used them in parallel and found it really was pretty useful. After a while, I used it first line and only double checked once in a while. In fact, when we hiked across northern UK in 2013 I studied the heck out of their map system (which as it turns out is a pretty darn good system) and planned to navigate using those. Then I discovered they had the maps available online to download to my iPad (which has GPS built in of course). So as a "backup" I bought a waterproof case for the iPad and downloaded the maps. I carried but never used the paper maps. On the iPad, there was a indicator on the map that says "you are frigging right here"..............it was awesome. I could even zoom in and out to get more or less detail and move the map around to see what was ahead. Unbelievable. I had the same slow acceptance curve in transitioning from the US Navy Dive Tables to the NAUI quick tables and then to the dive computer but eventually surrendered completely to that technology as well. HOWEVER, I will always carry my maps and compass, and always carry the NAUI quick tables and if I need to..........I can go to complete low/no tech. Gear can fail...................redundant systems are the key to survival.

(I still took weather with a sling psychrometer on the fireline though......still don't trust those new fangled portable weather thingees).

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33 minutes ago, Point Break said:

 On the iPad, there was a indicator on the map that says "you are frigging right here"..............it was awesome. I could even zoom in and out to get more or less detail and move the map around to see what was ahead.

If you think that tits... there are two apps, ForFlight and Garmin Pilot....  I can do everything from getting my pre-flight weather brieff to beinging right down to the runway.  Does my log book, gives me a profile of the flight, check list, etc....   Not a total Luddite here.. I adopted the panel GPS long ago as they gave me more options for airports that didn't have an approach before...   Use the same iPad map feature when I go to Germany...  Gudren, as my Ipad is known always gets me to where I need to go.

52 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

The funny thing is how much more comfortable I am going 1980's in the cockpit than my dad is. It's very easy to lose SA if you only know where you are because of the picture and not how the needles are pointing in relation to a navaid or gps waypoint. 

We did a flight up to Blairstown the other day - my ipad was dead so we pulled out the paper charts (i keep some in my flight bag even though they're a couple years old) while it was charging up. Took a minute for both of us to remember how to fucking fold the thing properly. Was fun banging a left at the river, a right at the water gap, and finding the runway. Back when i only rented that was how i always did it since i wasn't going to pony up for the 172 with the 430!  I did a VOR radial crossing hold on the way back for my IFR currency - been a while since i did one of those but the foreflight path was pretty well perfect. It's important to know the automation, including the autopilot... when the shits for real i'm using every tool available to me and i want to know how they work and their failure modes - but it definitely takes more practice to do everything by hand. Have fun with the G1000 - i still haven't flown glass! 

I guess the issue I take is that many are being taught the technology first and the old skul stuff is the "oh, by the way you should know this..." And, I can see why... Again, I am not a backwards thinker, I been using a 430W along with ForFlight for a while and now with Stratus ADS-B link.   I really like the added situational awareness it provides along with the conveniences of the EFB...  But in the back of me head there is always that little voice that is saying... "what are you going to do when the shit hits the fan..." Hence my continued practice of doing it old skul...

Now, for a commercial rating you can substitute 10 hours of Technologically Advance Aircraft (Glass Panel) over Complex & High Performance....  I already have plenty of the latter, and to move on to the CFI, CFII which is the end game here... I have been advised this is a must as they are starting to put more emphasis on this. 

By the way how is the new engine working for you?

 

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3 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

There are some videos out of pilots in the sim having a beyond difficult time controlling the airplane when put in a similar state as the Ethiopian plane. At the end of the day, Boeing is, in my opinion, culpable for having a single point of failure system that could have an impact on safety of flight. Not disabling the system due to an AoA disagree is just..... mind blowing. Should they have been able to prevent dying due to its failure? yeah - but they're also the last line of defense against physics killing them - the chain of events should have ended before it got to them. 

I don't disagree with that at all.  Boeing is fucked.  But you missed the entire point of my post.  Focus son, especially if you have any hope of beating me in BFM.  :lol:

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15 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I don't disagree with that at all.  Boeing is fucked.  But you missed the entire point of my post.  Focus son, especially if you have any hope of beating me in BFM.  :lol:

I am in 100% agreement that Boeing Fucked up...  But, how many US Flagged Max 8 or 9 crashed after how many cycles/flights?  And why was this? 

 

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

I'm no pilot but this resonates with me. I am an absolute expert at reading and following topographic maps with only a compass and and a pair of bino's. That's how I learned and used it so much its second nature. Being a bit of a Luddite at heart, I was not quick to embrace GPS in that environment. The FD bought us all one, gave us classes........yeah whatever, I still carried my maps. Eventually though I used them in parallel and found it really was pretty useful. After a while, I used it first line and only double checked once in a while. In fact, when we hiked across northern UK in 2013 I studied the heck out of their map system (which as it turns out is a pretty darn good system) and planned to navigate using those. Then I discovered they had the maps available online to download to my iPad (which has GPS built in of course). So as a "backup" I bought a waterproof case for the iPad and downloaded the maps. I carried but never used the paper maps. On the iPad, there was a indicator on the map that says "you are frigging right here"..............it was awesome. I could even zoom in and out to get more or less detail and move the map around to see what was ahead. Unbelievable. I had the same slow acceptance curve in transitioning from the US Navy Dive Tables to the NAUI quick tables and then to the dive computer but eventually surrendered completely to that technology as well. HOWEVER, I will always carry my maps and compass, and always carry the NAUI quick tables and if I need to..........I can go to complete low/no tech. Gear can fail...................redundant systems are the key to survival.

(I still took weather with a sling psychrometer on the fireline though......still don't trust those new fangled portable weather thingees).

Up here in the PNW, there's still critical current info that hasn't been appified to the best of my knowledge.

If you're sailing in the San Juan or Gulf Island archipelagos the currents between the islands can be very counter-intuitive and can really throw a wrench in your sail plan if you aren't prepared. The Canadian government publishes a book consisting entirely of schematic maps of all the islands and all the various current patterns that flow between them under different tidal conditions that may exist over the course of a year. Then there's a separate book of tables that's published every year with a page for every month in every part of the archipelago, each page having a row for each day and a column for each hour that tells you what page to look at in the map book to see how the currents will flow.

When you're planning your route, you find the table that corresponds to where you'll be and the month you'll be there and the day you'll be sailing and the hour you want to leave and the you make note of which current maps cover your transit window. Then you flip through the map book to the listed pages to see how the currents will flow and what route will be optimal. Of course, this type of information is just begging to be put into digital form and animated on an iPad but I've got to say that I love the process of looking it all up and flipping through the maps. Except for when your route crosses a map boundary and then it's a pain in the ass. 

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1 hour ago, nacradriver said:

If you think that tits... there are two apps, ForFlight and Garmin Pilot....  I can do everything from getting my pre-flight weather brieff to beinging right down to the runway.  Does my log book, gives me a profile of the flight, check list, etc....   Not a total Luddite here.. I adopted the panel GPS long ago as they gave me more options for airports that didn't have an approach before...   Use the same iPad map feature when I go to Germany...  Gudren, as my Ipad is known always gets me to where I need to go.

I guess the issue I take is that many are being taught the technology first and the old skul stuff is the "oh, by the way you should know this..." And, I can see why... Again, I am not a backwards thinker, I been using a 430W along with ForFlight for a while and now with Stratus ADS-B link.   I really like the added situational awareness it provides along with the conveniences of the EFB...  But in the back of me head there is always that little voice that is saying... "what are you going to do when the shit hits the fan..." Hence my continued practice of doing it old skul...

Now, for a commercial rating you can substitute 10 hours of Technologically Advance Aircraft (Glass Panel) over Complex & High Performance....  I already have plenty of the latter, and to move on to the CFI, CFII which is the end game here... I have been advised this is a must as they are starting to put more emphasis on this. 

By the way how is the new engine working for you?

 

truth. Not to mention gubmint GPS interference testing, and the possibility the antenna or the nav head could fail, and there is more than enough reason to continue practicing with the radio stuff. I think its possible to know where you are looking at a chart.... but not really know where you are. Sort of like looking at your watch and then immediately looking at your watch again because you don't actually know what time it is. you saw it at first glance but you didn't know it... if that makes any sense. If you fly beacons you need to consistently keep track, mentally, of where you are in relation to everything else. 

Engine is (knock on wood) running beautifully (knock on wood). Me and another partner have been flying it somewhat consistently and it's been happy. 

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I don't disagree with that at all.  Boeing is fucked.  But you missed the entire point of my post.  Focus son, especially if you have any hope of beating me in BFM.  :lol:

le'sigh. 

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3 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

Sort of like looking at your watch and then immediately looking at your watch again because you don't actually know what time it is. you saw it at first glance but you didn't know it... if that makes any sense.

No that doesn't...  But let me put this in a simulator scenario and see if it does... :lol:

Glad to hear you got squared away on the engine...

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14 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

http://www.condorsoaring.com/about/

 

Have a look at this soaring sim. I used it when I was doing my glider training and the instructors at my club gave me a lot of shit about it. Now they have a complete trainer made from an actual sailplane (Blanik L-13 which was grounded) using the same program in the clubhouse and it is a big part of their training process.

 

http://blog.allen.asn.au/category/condor2-soaring-simulator/

Raps,

Thanks for those links, the reality is really impressive. I PM'd you with more questions, if you do not mind...

 

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14 hours ago, nacradriver said:

I am in 100% agreement that Boeing Fucked up...  But, how many US Flagged Max 8 or 9 crashed after how many cycles/flights?  And why was this? 

 

None, which was my entire point of my thread hijack post about reliance on automation and training.  I suspect the US major carriers both have a better experience base in their pilots as well as a better and more rigorous training program to make sure they can handle the unknowns.  

What would be more interesting to learn is how many of the US flagged Max 8's experienced the sensor failure?  I'm assuming this will come out in the NTSB investigation.

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15 hours ago, nacradriver said:

If you think that tits... there are two apps, ForFlight and Garmin Pilot....  I can do everything from getting my pre-flight weather brieff to beinging right down to the runway.  Does my log book, gives me a profile of the flight, check list, etc....  

I'm a big fan of Garmin Pilot.  My last long XC I did was using my ipad with GP going into LAX's airspace in a 182RG.  It would have been a bastard had I not had the moving maps going in there for the first time.  With the iPad it was a snap, I didn't get yelled at by LA center once :D

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5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

None, which was my entire point of my thread hijack post about reliance on automation and training.  I suspect the US major carriers both have a better experience base in their pilots as well as a better and more rigorous training program to make sure they can handle the unknowns.  

What would be more interesting to learn is how many of the US flagged Max 8's experienced the sensor failure?  I'm assuming this will come out in the NTSB investigation.

I read in one of the early recap articles (from the guardian I think) that mentioned a nasa hosted reporting site for gathering incident info without the threat of an FAA report.  I think they had 3 or 4 reported that sounded like an MCAS issue.  All resolved by the flight crew pulling the breaker.

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6 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

None, which was my entire point of my thread hijack post about reliance on automation and training.  I suspect the US major carriers both have a better experience base in their pilots as well as a better and more rigorous training program to make sure they can handle the unknowns.  

What would be more interesting to learn is how many of the US flagged Max 8's experienced the sensor failure?  I'm assuming this will come out in the NTSB investigation.

Or, just thinking outside the box here that maybe, just maybe their procedures told them to "hand fly" the plane to 10K MSL. 

 

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6 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I'm a big fan of Garmin Pilot.  My last long XC I did was using my ipad with GP going into LAX's airspace in a 182RG.  It would have been a bastard had I not had the moving maps going in there for the first time.  With the iPad it was a snap, I didn't get yelled at by LA center once :D

Present company not included, I don't get this about Class B airspace and a lot of folks reluctance to go there...  The process is not rocket science... The LA Terminal Chart has a ton of visual reference points to keep you clear and with flight following they'll try to keep you out of trouble with some sort of a gentle reminder something to the tune of  "do you want a Class B clearance?" Call em up, tell em who you are, tell em what you what to do, and presto there you go....  all they are asking of you is to maintain an assigned heading an altitude...    Chances are the are going to keep you out of the approach gate into LAX...    Or...  just fly the SFR-VFR corridors...  so simple even a caveman ex-Air Force Pilot could do it :lol::D;)

 

image.png.6a1a01ae578f44284a0ce57d9bb8fc17.png

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20 hours ago, nacradriver said:

Or, just thinking outside the box here that maybe, just maybe their procedures told them to "hand fly" the plane to 10K MSL. 

 

I highly doubt that.  I'm betting even US carriers have the AP on pretty much as soon as the gear is in the well.  

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20 hours ago, nacradriver said:

Present company not included, I don't get this about Class B airspace and a lot of folks reluctance to go there...  The process is not rocket science... The LA Terminal Chart has a ton of visual reference points to keep you clear and with flight following they'll try to keep you out of trouble with some sort of a gentle reminder something to the tune of  "do you want a Class B clearance?" Call em up, tell em who you are, tell em what you what to do, and presto there you go....  all they are asking of you is to maintain an assigned heading an altitude...    Chances are the are going to keep you out of the approach gate into LAX...    Or...  just fly the SFR-VFR corridors...  so simple even a caveman ex-Air Force Pilot could do it :lol::D;)

 

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No, I get that completely.  My point was that the typical civilian pilot going there for the first time would have to do a fairly thorough and detailed chair flight of the VFR procedures and become very familiar with the visual references, the navaids, the altitudes and the Freqs to have a hope in not fucking it up to some degree.  All of which (the mission planning described above) is a good thing and should be done anyway.  However, I will admit to being a bit lazy that day and the XC was somewhat of a late minute decision to go through LAX airspace.  I had my iPad and Garmin Pilot - so what could go wrong? :lol:  If I had had to do that, on paper charts without the pre-planning required, I'm pretty sure I likely would have come beak to beak with an Emirates 380 on short final all the while the going "wherethefuckawi".  It actually did work out fine, which unfortunately is reinforcing bad behavior that I need to not repeat.  

One of the cool things growing up as a kid is I had a dad who was an avid GA pilot.  He was the typical kid who grew up in the barnstorming 1930s dreaming of flying and when WWII broke out, he wanted badly to join the AAF and fly.  Unfortunately, his eyes were too bad and he ended up being an Infantry machine gunner in Patton's 3rd Army in the BOTB.  But he never lost his love for flying and used his GI Bill $$ to buy a new airplane and hire an instructor to teach him how to fly it.  We did all of our family vacations in an airplane, flying pretty much all over the country east of the Mississippi.  I recall the night before he would stay up late at night with paper sectionals and Airway charts spread out on the dinner room table drawing the routes out on the various victor airways.  One of my early jobs was to use a yellow or pink highlighter to mark all the Center boundary Freqs on the chart so he knew when to talk to the next controller for VFR flight following.  He would draw in pencil all the direct point to point legs if he wanted to get off the airway with mag headings and various navaid fixes.  He would pre-plan all of the VOR crossing radials along the airway with times after passing the navaid so he could take a fix (we didn't have DME) and determine where he was along the airway.  

It was all fascinating stuff and I learned so much from him along the way.  I still love doing the mission/route/fuel planning before a flight.  I do it all electronically now, but it's the exact same principle.  

Good times.

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On 5/22/2019 at 9:20 PM, Point Break said:

Work? What is this...........”work”?

Agree though......I still have WAY too many things I do outside and in the garage to sit in front of the TV/Computer very much. Ever heard of Festool? Now that’s where my money goes......and Classic Hardwoods........and West Marine......and Roger Dunn........and Harbour Surfboards.....and REI........and Belmont Music Studio. Maybe if I lived where it’s 170 degrees outside.....or minus 50.......I might take a swat at it. 

Festool is a very dangerous addiction. 

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On 5/21/2019 at 3:42 AM, Rasputin22 said:

Can you smoke the Burg for us in your Hornet and record it for us?

I'm working on it.  I'm still fiddling with the settings to optimize the VR resolution vs performance.  Even with my big horsepower computer and graphics card, I'm still getting a bit of lag on the highest resolution when I'm flying over a densely populated city - usually only while looking straight out the 3-9 line (wingline) view as that will have the fastest rate of motion.  Looking forward is fine.  

Once I have everything sorted and can figure out how to record, I'll try to put something up.  I also wanted to get a snapshot of the cockpit for @mustang__1 so he can see how easy it is to read the switches and dials and such.  

The VR thing is a total game changer.  While you can likely ultimately get higher resolution out of a flat 4k monitor (for now), the ability to be decoupled from the view controls in a 3D sphere is just no comparison.  Again, the only way you come even close to this is in a $20M military domed simulator.  

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7 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

It was all fascinating stuff and I learned so much from him along the way.  I still love doing the mission/route/fuel planning before a flight.  I do it all electronically now, but it's the exact same principle.  

Good times.

The way the urban legend goes is that NASA spent $160 million to develop a pen that could operate in space...  the Russians just used a pencil... got it?

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Read recently that US Colleges spend around $100mm/p.a. to fly their teams and staff to games.  Football teams apparently travel with over 150 people.   

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7 hours ago, Student_Driver said:

Read recently that US Colleges spend around $100mm/p.a. to fly their teams and staff to games.  Football teams apparently travel with over 150 people.   

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

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On 5/25/2019 at 2:28 PM, nacradriver said:

The way the urban legend goes is that NASA spent $160 million to develop a pen that could operate in space...  the Russians just used a pencil... got it?

man that and the "my calculator has more power than the Apollo Guidance Computer" myth really grinds my gears.... Especially the AGC one. 

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2 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

man that and the "my calculator has more power than the Apollo Guidance Computer" myth really grinds my gears.... Especially the AGC one. 

Actually your iPhone does... :lol:

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1 minute ago, nacradriver said:

Actually your iPhone does... :lol:

i'd say i wouldnt trust apple products with my life..... but then there's IFR ops and foreflight.... so.... i dunno. I still wouldn't trust it to control the aircraft... 

 

 

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3 hours ago, nacradriver said:

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

That was my exact 1st reaction, and my 2nd.  And my 3rd.  But then as I was about to post a snarky response, it clicked that he is likely responding to the earlier thread drift about getting around via private planes vs commercial air travel or driving.  

Ok, so my New Year's resolution is trying to give people the benefit of the doubt and not assume the worst.  At least I'm trying.....

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39 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Ok, so my New Year's resolution is trying to give people the benefit of the doubt and not assume the worst.  At least I'm trying.....

WTF?! That's a completely wrong-footed approach. I think assume the ole they're an idiot until they prove otherwise is a more discriminating and likely accurate approach...........

As Forest said.........."Stupid is as Stupid does............"

IMHO anyway.

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13 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

i'd say i wouldnt trust apple products with my life..... but then there's IFR ops and foreflight.... so.... i dunno. I still wouldn't trust it to control the aircraft... 

With a Stratus and Forflight you get a DG and an AI app.. it works pretty good for when that pesky instructor simulates a vacuum failure on an IPC

 

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20 hours ago, Point Break said:
21 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Ok, so my New Year's resolution is trying to give people the benefit of the doubt and not assume the worst.  At least I'm trying.....

WTF?! That's a completely wrong-footed approach. I think assume the ole they're an idiot until they prove otherwise is a more discriminating and likely accurate approach...........

As Forest said.........."Stupid is as Stupid does............"

IMHO anyway.

I applaud the principle of giving people the benefit of doubt, but there are times when it is misplaced..... for example, I was a designated safety officer for a bunch of  install/repair jobs on industrial sites, and I made very clear that any worker who wanted to fuck up and hurt himself was free to do so (expect a bill for lost time and damaged machinery). Anybody who made a mistake that could hurt other people would get enough broken bones to even the score. Anybody who looked like they might be ABOUT to make a mistake that could hurt others would get my foot up their ass instantly, and taken for a little walk.

Workmen's comp? Don't even think about it, you leave here at 5pm healthy or you leave in a body bag.

Never had an injury..... well, a few scratches and bumps......

Yeah I took a bunch of positive steps too, and invested way more time than I got paid for in training. But I'm still here and AFAIK all my guys were still healthy when I moved on.

Of course, that all starts with the attitude that the people are capable of functioning at a high level, so maybe it's a positive approach after all.

-DSK

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

I applaud the principle of giving people the benefit of doubt, but there are times when it is misplaced..... for example, I was a designated safety officer for a bunch of  install/repair jobs on industrial sites, and I made very clear that any worker who wanted to fuck up and hurt himself was free to do so (expect a bill for lost time and damaged machinery). Anybody who made a mistake that could hurt other people would get enough broken bones to even the score. Anybody who looked like they might be ABOUT to make a mistake that could hurt others would get my foot up their ass instantly, and taken for a little walk.

Workmen's comp? Don't even think about it, you leave here at 5pm healthy or you leave in a body bag.

Never had an injury..... well, a few scratches and bumps......

Yeah I took a bunch of positive steps too, and invested way more time than I got paid for in training. But I'm still here and AFAIK all my guys were still healthy when I moved on.

Of course, that all starts with the attitude that the people are capable of functioning at a high level, so maybe it's a positive approach after all.

-DSK

never assume that.... Some people think they'll be happier collecting workers comp than not having any sort of disability. 

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