Varan

How about a The Ocean Race thread?

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On 9/2/2019 at 5:42 AM, shanghaisailor said:

Completely agreejb5.

This was something that DFRT did quite successfully, primarily in China but it is worth noting that Charles Caudrelier in a non- French event was voted French Sailor of the Year on the back of his VOR success as skipper. And rightly deserved I would say as he took a multi cultural and language crew to 2 podiums in the Volvo, perhaps even a more consistent performance than the victory itself.

And here in China Horace and Black became celebrities during the race and at Guangzhou were mobbed and in Hong Kong what appeared to be hundreds wearing Horace t-shirts turned up and China is still a non sailing nation.

In China they love when Chinese are doing well or doing things not considered 'normal'. This is evidenced by the Chinese media figures surpassing every other country in the VOR except the hotbed of sailing that is GBR and in the current SailGP China is, I am reliably informed, right up there in the numbers of followers of the event.

The boat is important for the sponsor as it is that which is most visible, even from a distance and shows off their corporate logo but I think those teams that have (or make) celebrities from amongst their crews have (or miss) a great opportunity both for their team and the race as a whole. Witty was much maligned but his shoot from the hip comments raised the events profile. We all remember Blakey and Dalts - well those of old enough do and the younger ones read about their exploits, Tracy and her determination that brought about the first all women crew, Magnus, perhaps the greatest character of them all, the never give up man -Bowwe, or relatively young gun Charlie Enright, on camera stating his commitment to being an 'ocean racer'.

The race needs them and I am sure non would begrudge the race  'wheeling them out' as characters that have helped build the legend that is The Race because theirs are real HUMAN stories that underpin whatever the race is viewed as.

In some ways the building of those stories is more important than whether the race does 10 miles or 10,000 miles in the Southern Ocean or whether it goes to Asia or not - at least to the general NON-sailing public. Some wouldn't know the sharp end from the blunt end but easily recognise Ian Walker's bloodshot eyes as stress or 10 days growth and an unkempt look as someone who has been through the wringer. And how many women would relate to Tracy Edwards comments in Freemantle - and I quote "From when you are knee high to a grasshopper if you are a woman you are told you have to look like this, be like that, you have to use this, use that, you are told to do this, wear that.....you go into the Southern Ocean and for 28 days you don't have to wash, you don't have to dress properly, you don't have to do your hair - it was great"

She was enabling women WAY before any of these so called campaigns.

The race needs characters, in fact it needs AND SHOULD use every avenue to build interest in what we, as sailors, know is probably the toughest, and certainly the longest sporting event in the world (OK for the purists the toughest team sporting event) BUT even after 45 years it is still relatively unknown - are so bad at promoting our sport? Certainly less than double figures this century in the VOR would suggest that.

I think that part of the reason why sponsorship is commercially viable in France is that local newspapers (and national to a lesser extent) talk of the boats and the skippers long before and after the race. They speculate about which young skipper is buying which old boat, which celebrity skipper is getting a new boat. It builds up interest, when there is a well prepared outsider (Alex Thomson), papers worry that he's going to outsail everybody (nearly happened!). There are also the stories of the cash strapped teacher/civil servant/any ordinary profession putting together an entry (more of a route du rhum thing) with scavenged boat bits. When there is a crash, they wonder what really happened, will the sponsor pay for a new boat etc...

I am pretty sure that there will be a couple of last minute "barely funded" French entries because the guys who are pros nowadays where kids when boats such as L'esprit d'équipe, Gauloises, 33 export were racing, beyond being pros they are dreamers and the temptation to do a David vs Goliath is too great for them to resist. They will bang the corners in the hope of winning a leg especially one with a dodldrums crossing.

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8 hours ago, Panoramix said:

....dreamers and the temptation to do a  David vs Goliath is too great for them to resist. They will bang the corners in the hope of winning a leg especially one with a dodldrums crossing.

Whilst doubling the doldrums crossings might appeal to amateur shoestring budget teams, it is exactly what makes this no longer a "top tier" race and one with limited commercial appeal. The choice of a Frankenstein platform and confusion of a second division has now just compounded that.

Going to China turns one-third of the race (and two of its longest legs) into potentially a "placings lottery". It then turns the Cape Horn rounding into another "lottery" of potentially race ending damage, on account that rounding occurs late in the season. Go look at leg results since China got included.

Then it increases the cost of participation. Those who stump up money don't like lotteries.

All this downside to promote a stopover just for Chinese "domestic" not "global" reasons and to fill up the RO's purse?  Give me a fucking break.

Shang is going to hate me saying that but unfortunately it is fact. 

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29 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Shang is going to hate me saying that but unfortunately it is fact. 

No worries bro, I for one will love you for saying the bitter truth.

 

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@jack_sparrow

Pros will tell you that you don't sell a sailing program with the assumption that you will win. Too risky for the sponsor.

Small team doing well at some point is good, journalists will get excited and talk about it.

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19 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Pros will tell you that you don't sell a sailing program with the assumption that you will win. Too risky for the sponsor.

Pano after putting together many a professional team sponsor submission, I don't recall ever saying; "we only want your money to be able to compete and we don't care where we finish".

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That's not what I said.

Sponsors aren't naive enough to think that everybody's going to win! So professional teams sell that even if they don't manage to win, the sponsor ROI is good.

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

That's not what I said.

Now you have me very confused.

6 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Pros will tell you that you don't sell a sailing program with the assumption that you will win.

 

4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

So professional teams sell that even if they don't manage to win,

 

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it's advertising on popular races like flying banners the sponsors are after, I think what Pano meant . Then the French culture is different there and sponsors believe you get promotions through races then the effects are spread through the media which is followed actively by French people. I doubt I see similar tendencies in the other parts of the world. Perhaps Australia is an exception?

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36 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Now you have me very confused.

 

5 hours ago, Panoramix said:

So professional teams sell that even if they don't manage to win, the sponsor ROI is good.

It seems pretty clear to me what he means....

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Hair splitting

No, saying that you will win is very different from saying that you have good chances of winning!

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34 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

No, saying that you will win is very different from saying that you have good chances of winning

And this is what you were referring to where the word "win" is not even mentioned. Why you keep banging on I have no idea.

10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Then it increases the cost of participation. Those who stump up money don't like (course selection) lotteries.

 

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I was just saying that from a sponsor perspective a bit of lottery isn't a big deal, they just want people to talk about their boat. Whether papers talks a about a lucky or an unlucky boat, the exposure is good for them. Nevertheless for the cost aspect, I agree with you, for the ROI to be good, the "I" needs to be small enough.

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13 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Whilst doubling the doldrums crossings might appeal to amateur shoestring budget teams, it is exactly what makes this no longer a "top tier" race and one with limited commercial appeal. The choice of a Frankenstein platform and confusion of a second division has now just compounded that.

Going to China turns one-third of the race (and two of its longest legs) into potentially a "placings lottery". It then turns the Cape Horn rounding into another "lottery" of potentially race ending damage, on account that rounding occurs late in the season. Go look at leg results since China got included.

Then it increases the cost of participation. Those who stump up money don't like lotteries.

All this downside to promote a stopover just for Chinese "domestic" not "global" reasons and to fill up the RO's purse?  Give me a fucking break.

Shang is going to hate me saying that but unfortunately it is fact. 

Completely agree

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Come on Jack you're usually on top of the game, Pano is just saying that pros will tell their mates looking for sponsorship its about the ROI for the sponsor, what they say to the sponsor to prove / sell the ROI is a different spin!

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10 hours ago, Panoramix said:

No, saying that you will win is very different from saying that you have good chances of winning!

I thought you meant that the sponsors don't need to have a winning boat to get a good ROI.

Look at Hugo Boss, they get a great ROI and AT wins stuff all. Outside of France, the best way to get a top ROI is probably to have your boat abandoned at sea with a complex and expensive rescue effort to ensure it makes the news. ;) 

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4 hours ago, hoppy said:

I thought you meant that the sponsors don't need to have a winning boat to get a good ROI.

Look at Hugo Boss, they get a great ROI and AT wins stuff all. Outside of France, the best way to get a top ROI is probably to have your boat abandoned at sea with a complex and expensive rescue effort to ensure it makes the news. ;) 

Yes That's what I meant. Winning should be the cherry on the cake.

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11 hours ago, hoppy said:

 

Look at Hugo Boss, they get a great ROI and AT wins stuff all. 

AT wins stuff?  I may have forgotten but I don't recall him winning any IMOCA races.  He's come close a few times but actually won?

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That's what he said ... "wins stuff all"

The main point is AT gives Hugo Boss GREAT ROI

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17 minutes ago, DtM said:

That's what he said ... "wins stuff all"

The main point is AT gives Hugo Boss GREAT ROI

I stand corrected. For some reason I didn't read it that way.  I agree about the PR value but to me at least it gets old pretty quickly.

Other than Ellen & Bernard Stamm has any non-French sailor ever won a significant IMOCA event?

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And another one, no surprise:

11 September 2019

The Hague will host The Ocean Race in 2022

The Ocean Race will visit The Hague for a third consecutive time when the next edition of the event stops in the Netherlands in Q2 of 2022

The Race first came to The Hague with a ‘pitstop’ on the final leg of the 2014-15 edition. In the last race, The Hague was billed as the Ultimate Destination, and as the finish port it was the scene of the closest finish in Race history, with three teams pushing towards the finishing line on equal points. Dongfeng Racing Team, with local hero Carolijn Brouwer on board, emerged victorious, while Dutch entry Team Brunel secured an overall race podium place. 

“It’s fantastic to hear that The Ocean Race will be returning to The Hague,” said Brouwer. “It was a wonderful experience to be able to share our victory in the last Race with so many friends, family and fans and I look forward to competing again when the fleet races into The Hague in 2022.” 

The Netherlands has had a strong presence in the event since the early days of the Whitbread Round the World Race when Connie Van Rietschoten won back to back victories in the 1977-78 and 1981-82 editions of the event. To this day, he is the only skipper to claim two victories in the Race. 

More recently, Bouwe Bekking has been a Race stalwart, competing in eight editions, and currently looking to put a campaign together for a ninth attempt. 

“Congratulations to The Hague and everyone involved,” Bekking said. “I think the stopover at the finish last time was the best in the entire race and as a sportsperson that kind of enthusiasm is one of the reasons you do the sport.” 

The 2017-18 finish in The Hague saw over 335,000 people visit the Race Village as well as 35,000 corporate guests and 400 local and international media.

“The Hague has been a very positive experience for all of us as sailors over the past two races,” said veteran offshore racer Chris Nicholson, whose Dutch-based W Ocean Racing is building a campaign for the next race. “As sailors it is especially rewarding to have the public come out and support us the way they do here.” 

Deputy Mayor and The Hague's alderman for Economic Affairs and Sport, Richard de Mos, is excited about The Hague again being the host for The Ocean Race: “We’ll let the whole world know The Hague is the place to be if you enjoy sailing. Taking part in this great race for the third time meets our ambition to be the sailing hot spot of Northwestern Europe. Everyone in our city will be able to enjoy this global event: our citizens, entrepreneurs and, of course, hundreds of thousands of visitors. This is a real boost for our local economy as well.” 

“It’s great to see this kind of commitment out of The Hague and the government,” said Simeon Tienpont, the skipper of DutchSail, a prospective team in the next race. “Last time was a real spectacle at the finish and it brought a lot of economic value for the entire region. It’s not only about the city but the entire fan base in the country who want the Race to come and it’s more proof that it’s one of the biggest sporting events we have in The Netherlands.” 

“The Hague has shown itself to be one of the most popular stops in the Race over the last two editions, with tremendous support during the pitstop in 2015 and again as the finish port in 2018,” agreed Johan Salén, the Managing Director of The Ocean Race. 

“We know the fans in The Netherlands love the event and we’re excited to be working again with The Hague to build a tremendous experience for our Race fans, sailors and stakeholders in 2022.” 

The Host City procurement process for the 2021-22 edition of The Ocean Race is concluding and more venues will be announced in the coming weeks, followed by the full Race Route. The Hague joins the Race’s home port of Alicante, and Danish sailing hotspot Aarhus as confirmed destinations in the next edition.

 

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2 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

And another one, no surprise:

11 September 2019

The Hague will host The Ocean Race in 2022

The Ocean Race will visit The Hague for a third consecutive time when the next edition of the event stops in the Netherlands in Q2 of 2022

The Race first came to The Hague with a ‘pitstop’ on the final leg of the 2014-15 edition. In the last race, The Hague was billed as the Ultimate Destination, and as the finish port it was the scene of the closest finish in Race history, with three teams pushing towards the finishing line on equal points. Dongfeng Racing Team, with local hero Carolijn Brouwer on board, emerged victorious, while Dutch entry Team Brunel secured an overall race podium place. 

“It’s fantastic to hear that The Ocean Race will be returning to The Hague,” said Brouwer. “It was a wonderful experience to be able to share our victory in the last Race with so many friends, family and fans and I look forward to competing again when the fleet races into The Hague in 2022.” 

The Netherlands has had a strong presence in the event since the early days of the Whitbread Round the World Race when Connie Van Rietschoten won back to back victories in the 1977-78 and 1981-82 editions of the event. To this day, he is the only skipper to claim two victories in the Race. 

More recently, Bouwe Bekking has been a Race stalwart, competing in eight editions, and currently looking to put a campaign together for a ninth attempt. 

“Congratulations to The Hague and everyone involved,” Bekking said. “I think the stopover at the finish last time was the best in the entire race and as a sportsperson that kind of enthusiasm is one of the reasons you do the sport.” 

The 2017-18 finish in The Hague saw over 335,000 people visit the Race Village as well as 35,000 corporate guests and 400 local and international media.

“The Hague has been a very positive experience for all of us as sailors over the past two races,” said veteran offshore racer Chris Nicholson, whose Dutch-based W Ocean Racing is building a campaign for the next race. “As sailors it is especially rewarding to have the public come out and support us the way they do here.” 

Deputy Mayor and The Hague's alderman for Economic Affairs and Sport, Richard de Mos, is excited about The Hague again being the host for The Ocean Race: “We’ll let the whole world know The Hague is the place to be if you enjoy sailing. Taking part in this great race for the third time meets our ambition to be the sailing hot spot of Northwestern Europe. Everyone in our city will be able to enjoy this global event: our citizens, entrepreneurs and, of course, hundreds of thousands of visitors. This is a real boost for our local economy as well.” 

“It’s great to see this kind of commitment out of The Hague and the government,” said Simeon Tienpont, the skipper of DutchSail, a prospective team in the next race. “Last time was a real spectacle at the finish and it brought a lot of economic value for the entire region. It’s not only about the city but the entire fan base in the country who want the Race to come and it’s more proof that it’s one of the biggest sporting events we have in The Netherlands.” 

“The Hague has shown itself to be one of the most popular stops in the Race over the last two editions, with tremendous support during the pitstop in 2015 and again as the finish port in 2018,” agreed Johan Salén, the Managing Director of The Ocean Race. 

“We know the fans in The Netherlands love the event and we’re excited to be working again with The Hague to build a tremendous experience for our Race fans, sailors and stakeholders in 2022.” 

The Host City procurement process for the 2021-22 edition of The Ocean Race is concluding and more venues will be announced in the coming weeks, followed by the full Race Route. The Hague joins the Race’s home port of Alicante, and Danish sailing hotspot Aarhus as confirmed destinations in the next edition.

 

So the drip feed marketing approach then.  The suspense is underwhelming.

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19 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Hague and Aarhus Pitstops only...interesting

Where do you see that?

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"The Hague has been a very positive experience for all of us as sailors over the past two races,” said veteran offshore racer Chris Nicholson, whose Dutch-based W Ocean Racing is building a campaign for the next race. 

Is Nico still on a retainer with Akzo, trying to get Akzo on board again, fallen in love with a Dutch girl, or why is his prospective campaign Dutch based?

4 Dutch campaigns seem a bit much, anyone knows?

 

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20 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

 

 

That video really is a new low point!! Reminds me of kids tv back in the 1970s

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19 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

That video really is a new low point!! Reminds me of kids tv back in the 1970s

Makes you wonder how much they spent on it.  Waste of time and money.  They need to get on with it big time.

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I seem to think that The Ocean Race held their first 'Registered Teams Meeting' yesterday or the day before? Anyone heard anything? Seems strange to not publicise the first potentially interesting development to have occurred for a while..? Well, more interesting than video above...  

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5 hours ago, Bentley the Badger said:

Seems strange to not publicise the first potentially interesting development to have occurred for a while..

Let me explain it nicely for a change, they are a bit of a quiet bunch, and certainly no twitter maniacs.

But where or how did you hear about the meeting, Badger?

Anyone care to message or tweet the 11th Hour guys, Mark Towill doesn't seem too busy at the moment. Or one of the others?  You see, I still hope to get a Fiji Bitter sponsored campaign going, and feel a little left out now. :angry:

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Let me explain it nicely for a change, they are a bit of a quiet bunch, and certainly no twitter maniacs.

But where or how did you hear about the meeting, Badger?

Anyone care to message or tweet the 11th Hour guys, Mark Towill doesn't seem too busy at the moment. Or one of the others?  You see, I still hope to get a Fiji Bitter sponsored campaign going, and feel a little left out now. :angry:

 

 

It's not clear if this just happened or not but this was posted on IG. Most recent post so I'm guessing it is now. 

 

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Good find JB, just amazing what you come up with all the time, much appreciated by all, I am sure.

So it seems it was just about their CO2 footprint, and since they talked about reporting on it they tried to keep this one quiet!  :rolleyes:

It shows how backwards they are, and how in this day and age it's hard to keep things under wraps. Better to be open and frank about it, and get positive publicity in the process, methinks.

I can already see a lot more shitfights coming up once things start heating up, and the spin doctors and gag orders coming out of retirement. They really need to raise or rather change their game in this respect!

 

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5 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

It shows how backwards they are, and how in this day and age it's hard to keep things under wraps. Better to be open and frank about it, and get positive publicity in the process, methinks.

Some of it might be hiding the teams that have not publically announced yet... 

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1 hour ago, JonRowe said:

Some of it might be hiding the teams that have not publically announced yet... 

Could be, but then they could have called it "registered and prospective" teams, and there was no need to spell them all out. Just tell us a little bit about it, just a bit more than Malizia did, so that not only the fans get in the mood, but also, and more importantly any prospective team sponsors.

I just fucking hate that kind of management style. They are so secretive that a lot of people here thought they had ceased to exist. What's that good for?

They did the same last time around, and although they themselves probably think that they managed the various disasters very skilfully, from our perspective as knowledgeable fans it was a complete mess and sometimes a disgraceful one.

BTW, it was the same problem when they managed the SCA team, and certainly after Mangus, who was far more open, died so tragically. The team never really bonded, until later in the race when it was too late. Hell, they didn't even announce the skipper until just before the start, think about that.

 

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Have they sorted the new boat design yet? 

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27 minutes ago, mad said:

Have they sorted the new boat design yet? 

New boat design? Its the IMOCA rule so theres not going to be a new one design?

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Rennmaus, it would have been a great injustice if Den Haag hadn't been selected again. A fantastic finishing point, The city (people and government) certain took part enthusiastically, from the boat numbers on the water, the crowds in the village, even the waiters in the restaurants joined in the fun. We walked into one with our DFRT gear on and they put "We are the Champions" (Queen) on the P.A.

17 hours ago, Bentley the Badger said:

I seem to think that The Ocean Race held their first 'Registered Teams Meeting' yesterday or the day before? 

Correct

2 hours ago, mad said:

Have they sorted the new boat design yet? 

Understand the confusion Mad.They were working on a new One Design "Super 60" when Mark Turner was at the helm, then the Volvo Supervisory Board did a U-turn that most politicians would have been proud of and canned it. From the material I saw at the time the three primary differences between the Super 60 and what will be going round with The Ocean Race are a) instead of 60 footers designed for fully crewed that could be used for short-handed, they will be 1 or 2 man boats beefed up for fully crewed, b) they will be bought and paid for by the teams instead of built by The Race and chartered and c) they will not be one design.

So basically the idea for the foiling 60 footer was Mark Turner's not Johan & Richard's

By the Way - don't read anything into the picture below regarding Dongfeng's participation in the next Race

DSCN1930.JPG

Gitana 16.jpg

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5 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Rennmaus, it would have been a great injustice if Den Haag hadn't been selected again. A fantastic finishing point, The city (people and government) certain took part enthusiastically, from the boat numbers on the water, the crowds in the village, even the waiters in the restaurants joined in the fun. We walked into one with our DFRT gear on and they put "We are the Champions" (Queen) on the P.A.

Correct

Understand the confusion Mad.They were working on a new One Design "Super 60" when Mark Turner was at the helm, then the Volvo Supervisory Board did a U-turn that most politicians would have been proud of and canned it. From the material I saw at the time the three primary differences between the Super 60 and what will be going round with The Ocean Race are a) instead of 60 footers designed for fully crewed that could be used for short-handed, they will be 1 or 2 man boats beefed up for fully crewed, b) they will be bought and paid for by the teams instead of built by The Race and chartered and c) they will not be one design.

So basically the idea for the foiling 60 footer was Mark Turner's not Johan & Richard's

DSCN1930.JPG

Gitana 16.jpg

I don't think the IMOCA selection itself is the problem.  Its more trying to fit the new boats with highly optimized solo designs for a VG course into a course with more than two equator crossings and more upwind work and not end up with two differing designs neither of which is truly suitable for each others primary race.  Not a smart move.

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9 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Good find JB, just amazing what you come up with all the time, much appreciated by all, I am sure.

So it seems it was just about their CO2 footprint, and since they talked about reporting on it they tried to keep this one quiet!  :rolleyes:

It shows how backwards they are, and how in this day and age it's hard to keep things under wraps. Better to be open and frank about it, and get positive publicity in the process, methinks.

I can already see a lot more shitfights coming up once things start heating up, and the spin doctors and gag orders coming out of retirement. They really need to raise or rather change their game in this respect!

 

It seems to have been about more than the environment thread.  There is another IG post mentioning learning about the next edition of the race but I see nothing from the organizers themselves and no other details.  Maybe they did a NDA? But definitely hard to keep these things quite these days with Twit and IG being a couple of clicks away.  They really have a pretty poor way and a whole lot to learn about dealing with the whole publicity thing.

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1 hour ago, JonRowe said:

New boat design? Its the IMOCA rule so theres not going to be a new one design?

It’s not going to look like an IMOCA that’s for sure, the rules going to need some interpretation for a crewed version. 

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2 hours ago, mad said:

Have they sorted the new boat design yet? 

Who cares, they are probably "all" waiting with new builds and modifications till after the Jacques Vabre anyway. And hopefully some Vendee Globe boats will modify them later as well.

1 hour ago, JonRowe said:

New boat design? Its the IMOCA rule so theres not going to be a new one design?

I still had in my head that (maybe) boats were gone have different rigs and keels, as was originally deemed necessary. Also interiors were going to be very different. Checking up on it now that seems not the case anymore for the rigs and keels,and changes to the interior are now minimal. What needs the most redesigning is probably the cockpit, as has become blatantly apparent with the launch of the new Hugo Boss. 

This Gladwell/Sail-World interview with Richard Mason covers most of it:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/217397/the-ocean-race--part-2-expanding-the-game

"We are looking to create a long-term continuity in offshore sailing," says Mason espousing what appears to be the Mission Statement for The Ocean Race.

A big part of this objective is integrating the IMOCA60 class with The Ocean Race and creating a team owned boat which can be easily converted to do fully crewed (five crew), short-handed (two crew), or single-handed sailing.

"What we are trying to do is work very closely with that class to make sure that we don't over-specialise the boats to be able to do our race. We work very hard to make sure that in our race all you will need to compete is a current IMOCA certificate - and that's it.

"We don't want people to be changing rigs, or a lot of alterations. We want to keep changes to the minimum. We will probably come up with slightly different configurations for the crewed side of it, which may be slightly more optimised."

Finally, and possibly importantly, their is the course optimization in the design process. All the designers will work on this undoubtedly. And there are oh so many more design details to be considered actually, like sailplan and deck layout for instance.

PS. While finalizing this post, several other posters chipped in, and notably the esteemed Shang. This is my answer on the 2 design questions, I think it is to the point.

 

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25 minutes ago, mad said:

It’s not going to look like an IMOCA that’s for sure, the rules going to need some interpretation for a crewed version. 

Oh for sure a fully TOR optimised IMOCA isn't going to look a fully Vendee optimised IMOCA e.g. the new Hugo Boss, but I could see an Arkema (much more open cockpit) style design being feasible. There are IMOCA teams talking about doing a TOR with their boats (I think Ruyant mentions it for after the Vendee?) so I think we're seeing some of the boats that will go round already. I'm interested to see what the 11th Hour Racing comes up with as a TOR orientated design after they've played with the old boss :)

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1 hour ago, shanghaisailor said:

From the material I saw at the time the three primary differences between the Super 60 and what will be going round with The Ocean Race are a) instead of 60 footers designed for fully crewed that could be used for short-handed, they will be 1 or 2 man boats beefed up for fully crewed, b) they will be bought and paid for by the teams instead of built by The Race and chartered and c) they will not be one design.

Shang you forgot the biggest difference..the Super 60 was a "full foiler" with T Rudders.

Something they should have persisted with and stay a generation ahead of the IMOCA rule. 

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Shang you forgot the biggest difference..the Super 60 was a "full foiler" with T Rudders.

Something they should have persisted with and stay a generation ahead of the IMOCA rule.

You are right - I did forget that one but when Mark left so did the energy and drive on that project and having seen (and still having on file) much of the info on that, they would have been weapons in my view, AND strong enough to be driven like they were stolen (as Volvo crews generally do) which is doubtful with a converted (read strengthened) IMOCA 60,even with pit stops.

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3 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Rennmaus, it would have been a great injustice if Den Haag hadn't been selected again. A fantastic finishing point, The city (people and government) certain took part enthusiastically, from the boat numbers on the water, the crowds in the village, even the waiters in the restaurants joined in the fun. We walked into one with our DFRT gear on and they put "We are the Champions" (Queen) on the P.A.

(...)

I know @shanghaisailor, I was there for the pit stop two editions ago and the stop-over last time. Good Lord, so much fun!!! Can't wait to get there again, really, really, really. But Århus is cool too, lovely city, sweet people, and a planetarium... Sounds like a nice Northern EU round trip :D
So I dearly hope that the new organizers don't mess this up.

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3 hours ago, JonRowe said:

Oh for sure a fully TOR optimised IMOCA isn't going to look a fully Vendee optimised IMOCA e.g. the new Hugo Boss, but I could see an Arkema (much more open cockpit) style design being feasible. There are IMOCA teams talking about doing a TOR with their boats (I think Ruyant mentions it for after the Vendee?) so I think we're seeing some of the boats that will go round already. I'm interested to see what the 11th Hour Racing comes up with as a TOR orientated design after they've played with the old boss :)

Agreed, just can’t see how the boats can be multi purpose. 

 

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10 minutes ago, mad said:

Agreed, just can’t see how the boats can be multi purpose. 

 

Every IMOCA at the moment is optimised to some degree (some to the extreme) for the Vendee, but they also do other races, I'm just thinking that some of the less extreme IMOCAs will be considering TOR as an "other" race. 

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Are there any new rules for The Ocean Race?
The only thing on the noticeboard so far is the NOR from December 2018. Which is interesting in some places.

Crew is one of those things.
IMOCA 5 crew at least 1 female + OBR or 6 crew at least 4 female + OBR
So far so good. Notice the absence of any restrictions other than gender. Contrast that to VO65
10 crew + OBR consisting of
3 with prior experience in the Southern Ocean, vetted by the organizer 
and 7 under the age of 30
and 3 under the age of 22
and 3 female

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23 minutes ago, Chasm said:

Are there any new rules for The Ocean Race?
The only thing on the noticeboard so far is the NOR from December 2018. Which is interesting in some places.

Crew is one of those things.
IMOCA 5 crew at least 1 female + OBR or 6 crew at least 4 female + OBR
So far so good. Notice the absence of any restrictions other than gender. Contrast that to VO65
10 crew + OBR consisting of
3 with prior experience in the Southern Ocean, vetted by the organizer 
and 7 under the age of 30
and 3 under the age of 22
and 3 female

The VO65 is intended to be youth based this time around, hence the age brackets, the 3 with prior experience of the SO is to prevent someone sending 10 youngsters with no experience into the washing machine...

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Having spoken to a couple of (well informed)  people today it seems that the decision has been finalised to visit china as opposed to what was previously considered to be the more popular choice of a traditional course. This was apparently confirmed at the 'Teams Whatever It Was' meeting...

Edited by Bentley the Badger
typo!
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54 minutes ago, Chasm said:

Are there any new rules for The Ocean Race?
The only thing on the noticeboard so far is the NOR from December 2018. Which is interesting in some places.

Crew is one of those things.
IMOCA 5 crew at least 1 female + OBR or 6 crew at least 4 female + OBR
So far so good. Notice the absence of any restrictions other than gender. Contrast that to VO65
10 crew + OBR consisting of
3 with prior experience in the Southern Ocean, vetted by the organizer 
and 7 under the age of 30
and 3 under the age of 22
and 3 female

Was some rule about the Imoca not being able to use wind AP. Just compass. No idea if that is still the case. Dumb rule anyway. 

I still think 6 is a lot of people for recent Imoca. Limited room and recent Imoca also may be a bit too fragile for that number of people pushing them hard with all the added weight and stuff.

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just came across this logo... from the distance it looks exactly like TOR... 

anyway, apparently good turnout and vibes at the TOR teams meeting last week. The deadline to start building new purposed-built TOR boats is slowly approaching... 

 

 

Screenshot 2019-09-16 at 15.52.57.png

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On 9/13/2019 at 4:53 PM, Bentley the Badger said:

Having spoken to a couple of (well informed)  people today it seems that the decision has been finalised to visit china as opposed to what was previously considered to be the more popular choice of a traditional course. This was apparently confirmed at the 'Teams Whatever It Was' meeting...

China? Are they as stupid as they seem?

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TOR redefines the term. So break up one of the great legs with a pointless stop to earn some $$$.

What is a picture of Charal doing in there.  Got to show some new boat even if its not signed up?

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The old Whitbread and its adventure aura is definitely gone... this is just becoming a commercial parade like the Clipper. A Cabo Verde stop makes no sense, only for the race itself to earn some euros. 

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lol there isn't infrastructure in CV for either imoca or VO65. The marina in Mindelo gets so much swell anyone who has been there has chafed thru lines, broken springs and what not. Plus unless it's such an awkward stop. CV to Cape Town? Auckland to CV?

 

This is what happens when directors and event org are too far removed from the sailors. 

 

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Now this I can't understand. I'd suspect it means that Cape Town is out and the teams will sail directly to Australia/New Zealand before heading north to China or The other option is that they'll stop in Cabo Verde after Brazil thus removing an American stop over... 

Interesting. Either way it's a mess. The Doldrums is a pivotal tactical moment in the race. I'll be waiting for this new Class40 race The Race Around. Great boats, Good numbers expected and follows a traditional racecourse.   

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I do not know... Capo Verde makes little sense... even if last time, the first leg was a very short one to Lisbon.
Will the second leg passing west of Fernando de Noronha, to make it a little longer?
Bah....

P.S. I'm not considering Capo Verde as a stopover from Brazil to Europe in the second half of the race... even less sense.

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2 hours ago, JeronimoII said:

The old Whitbread and its adventure aura is definitely gone... this is just becoming a commercial parade like the Clipper.

At least that Clipper thing unashamedly "is what it is". These TOR tool heads have no idea.

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1 minute ago, jack_sparrow said:

At least that Clipper thing unashamedly "is what it is". These TOR tool heads have no idea.

Looking at fatal accidents in the last decade the Clipper Race is the actually extreme event. Demonstrably safer for those around them too...

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Soon we'll a drip feed announcing a stop in the Seychelles or Reunion so they can pass through Malaca straits to get to the most dumb ass stop of them all in China.  What a f'ing joke.

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2 hours ago, Bentley the Badger said:

Now this I can't understand. I'd suspect it means that Cape Town is out and the teams will sail directly to Australia/New Zealand before heading north to China or The other option is that they'll stop in Cabo Verde after Brazil thus removing an American stop over..

Nah Verdes is only a "pitstop" so CT safe. A pitstop going home is out of the question unless you are promoting a windward finish and don't want anyone to enter. 

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Nah Verdes is only a "pitstop" so CT safe. A pitstop going home is out of the question unless you are promoting a windward finish and don't want anyone to enter. 

I get that and having looked a little closer at the routing a stop during the return leg is unlikely. If they do however use it as a pit stop I wonder if they're actually looking to go to Brazil as opposed to Cape Town. They'd then stop in Cape Town after the Horn before heading north again. That'd be interesting. And it'd provide a full circumnavigation of Antartica, giving more chances to push the eco agenda by testing waters very rarely visited. I'm sure 11th Hour Racing and the Mirpuri Foundation would see value in that... 

Maybe I should just have a bottle of wine and stop thinking about it. 

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1 hour ago, Bentley the Badger said:

Maybe I should just have a bottle of wine and stop thinking about it. 

This, but make it two.

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12 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

These people are on crack.

These Swedish high flyers more likely spiced their smörgåsbord with proper cocaine!

Maybe Shang can explain this pitystop with his roi theories, or maybe the Chinese are going to build a superyacht marina there, or paid a shitload of bribes for their fishing rights. Great move, if only this stop would replace the Chinese one...

Stopped there once to fuel up, and I can highly recommend their lobsters! Several days out in the middle of the ocean we all got seriously I'll from a salmonella infection, and only a load of antibiotics saved us from a disaster. Incidentally, the youngest and fittest of the crew was the worst of and became badly anemic. Lots of Argentinean lomo's got him back in shape, and he subsequently did no less than 4 Volvo rtw races!

 

 

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I would guess it is a stop that breaks the first leg, Alicante to Lisbon. Last race they were diverting the boats out and around islands to make the leg a bit longer. Putting a pitstop at the turning point makes little difference to the race. Being on the first leg it might be a good opportunity to shake any small bugs out of the boats. 

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20 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

I would guess it is a stop that breaks the first leg, Alicante to Lisbon.

Cannot believe it would be included in the opening leg to Lisbon. That would add more than 2000nm to it, and that would seem crazy, even to those The Ocean Retards.

 

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Last time they added a virtual waypoint to the route around Santo Porto, making the leg closer to 2,000nm. So going to Capo Verde is about double; but with a pitstop it is closer to two 2,000nm legs. So each leg is no longer than last time’s first leg. 

It is odd. But if this is the intent, not totally insane. What is odd is that it will add nearly a week at the start of the race. Makes me wonder if there is some sort of timing constraint they are working around. Most likely involving commercial interests.

Or maybe there is some insanely rich enthusiast on Capo Verde that wants to see the race. 

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TOR posted their announcement on Twitter and it gathered over 50 likes.  Interesting to contrast to how people see it here from the comments.  Some people like anything I guess.

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10 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

I would guess it is a stop that breaks the first leg, Alicante to Lisbon.

Francis you either don't know where the Verdes are or are seriously on the drink.

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9 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Francis you either don't know where the Verdes are or are seriously on the drink.

LOL

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15 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Makes me wonder if there is some sort of timing constraint they are working around.

The most important timing contraint for this race is avoiding the Cape Horn approach too late in the season. They are already arguably a month too late now, so this fucktard stopover decision has not reduced it, but maybe even blown that timing out even more.

That said I remain optimistic that Hong Kong/China will not be included being the RO's original thinking some time ago.

15 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Most likely involving commercial interests.

Or maybe there is some insanely rich enthusiast on Capo Verde that wants to see the race. 

Self serving and obscure commercial interests is the only explanation driving this brain fart.

Whilst Verdes a Republic independant of Portugal, there may be some leftover/go forward obligations attached to Lisbon previously being a stopover/boat yard location etc.

Verdes maybe a compromise for giving Lisbon the flick, which with its tidal finish and flukey pressure that time of year, should never have been selected in the first place.

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On 9/13/2019 at 11:53 PM, shanghaisailor said:

You are right - I did forget that one but when Mark left so did the energy and drive on that project and having seen (and still having on file) much of the info on that, they would have been weapons in my view, AND strong enough to be driven like they were stolen (as Volvo crews generally do) which is doubtful with a converted (read strengthened) IMOCA 60,even with pit stops.

Shang funny how 2 years on, save for Elevators, the Super 60 already looks dated compared to current IMOCA generation, but "fit for purpose" for crewed use all the same as you indicate. An opportunity now lost.

There are only 4 teams signed up at the moment and 3 of those are IMOCA. The RO appears to be "deaf and dumb" to that message for all aspects of their decision making.

Large_18527457_10155423020817437_3920873945489469445_o1.jpg

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Verdes maybe a compromise for giving Lisbon the flick, which with its tidal finish and flukey pressure that time of year, should never have been selected in the first place.

Hard to see how they could leave out Portugal, with Mirpuri's entry and their "Racing for the planet" team. Or has he perhaps fallen out with the insolent retards?

Meanwhile The Ocean Retards are reporting on their "registered team projects meeting", saying fuck all in fact. What did you expect?

"Last week, upwards of 20 registered team projects convened at The Ocean Race headquarters in Alicante for the first of series of meetings designed to keep some of the most important stakeholders in the event – the teams – up to date on the progress of the 2021-22 edition of the Race."

https://www.theoceanrace.com/en/news/12315_Registered-Teams-meeting-sets-race-on-track.html

 

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9 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Hard to see how they could leave out Portugal, with Mirpuri's entry and their "Racing for the planet" team. 

Hence Verdes as a defacto Portugese speaking stopover as I indicated with Lisbon no longer on the list to keep someone happy???

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

...Verdes maybe a compromise for giving Lisbon the flick..

 

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24 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Hence Verdes as a defacto Portugese speaking stopover as I indicated with Lisbon no longer on the list to keep someone happy???

 

Where did you see that Lisbon was off the list?

Anyway, I should have looked further before spouting my falling out conspiracy.

In fact Mirpuri seems very involved in the Cape Verde's, good to see, and good on him. He must be the one to keep happy, your intuition is still OK thus.

 

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3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Shang funny how 2 years on, save for Elevators, the Super 60 already looks dated compared to current IMOCA generation, but "fit for purpose" for crewed use all the same as you indicate. An opportunity now lost.

There are only 4 teams signed up at the moment and 3 of those are IMOCA. The RO appears to be "deaf and dumb" to that message for all aspects of their decision making.

Large_18527457_10155423020817437_3920873945489469445_o1.jpg

The Super 60 was almost identical to the new Verdier design out of Persico. The elevators and other flaps were all lost during the design process as the boat needed to be easy to convert to full IMOCA. 

So not lost, but also not fit for purpose as a crewed boat either. 

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2 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Where did you see that Lisbon was off the list?

Didn't see. Simply that maybe an explanation for inclusion of Verdes. 

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21 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

So not lost, but also not fit for purpose as a crewed boat either. 

Super 60 also not fit for purpose as an IMOCA either, but not unexpected. The cockpit at least appeared to make concessions for a crew of 5 +1. Down below not so sure.

01-volvo-boat.jpg

hqdefault (2).jpg

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Jack, those are very early renderings. Final design before it all fell over was basically the current Verdier design. Had a close look and looks like Guillaume just sold on the same design package.

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4 hours ago, Chimp too said:

Jack, those are very early renderings. Final design before it all fell over was basically the current Verdier design. Had a close look and looks like Guillaume just sold on the same design package.

Agree.  Both new Verdier IMOCA are based off the same original plan but have revisions for deck/cockpit/foils and I'm sure other areas as well.  There is an interview around with Thomas R (ADVENS) saying as much.

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10 minutes ago, jb5 said:

Agree.  Both new Verdier IMOCA are based off the same original plan but have revisions for deck/cockpit/foils and I'm sure other areas as well.  There is an interview around with Thomas R (ADVENS) saying as much.

I have seen the structure and cockpit arrangement on Thomas’ boat and is hardly any difference to the VS60 if at all. Foils were obviously still a work in progress 

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