Lake Schooner

Schooner No. 5 Elbe Sunk in Collision

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Damn! that's the boat 'Commodore' Thompkins was born on.  She was named "Wanderbird" in those years. Spent many years in San Francisco.

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Damn! Just after a refit too.

Somebody's got some 'splainin' to do.

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Someone on the WoodenBoat Forum just posted this screen shot of historical AIS data. Looks like the Elbe chose a pretty inopportune time to bang a left. 

62115172_10219254186535687_8712622798121467904_o.thumb.jpg.6c24252957aeebdf0d6adbc99e9ef349.jpg

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Bummer - she was tied up and the end of the harbor I grew up sailing out of.  Sad to see this. 

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Silver lining is wood seasoned properly can be refloated and restored properly if the ppl are quick about it. 

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3 hours ago, Miffy said:

Silver lining is wood seasoned properly can be refloated and restored properly if the ppl are quick about it. 

 

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Best part about this is that rescue services were already in the area and saw it happen.
They got called for a sailboat else that did not need to be rescued after all. (Just more water un der the keel, waiting for the flood to free the boat.)

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Seems she got stuck in irons while trying to tack? Really sad. 

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1 minute ago, PaulK said:

Seems she got stuck in irons while trying to tack? Really sad. 

 

Schooners, especially gaff rigged ones do not go well to weather.  I remember bringing one back from races in Nova Scotia, and we were making zero progress towards home, until the wind changed from dead on the nose..

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On no!  How terrible.  'Wander Bird' is a ship full of history, including the decades she spent docked in Sausalito.

I recently rediscovered 53 files totaling ~300 Mbytes of scanned documents I found aboard 'Wander Bird' in the late 90s, when she was berthed in Sausalito, CA, where I was living at the time.  After returning the documents to the ship, I gave a copy of these files to Commodore Warwick Tompkins at the time.

I hope someone will take the time to read them, and that other papers I saw then but didn't scan got saved somehow too.  I've received no reply to repeated attempts to contact this organization with my treasure trove of documents found aboard this wonderful vessel.

https://www.lotsenschoner.de/das-schiff.html

I was astounded to find these papers casually stuffed somewhere aboard (near the chart table?), after decades of "wild life" at the dock in Sausalito.  

Here is an example of one letter from Warwick Tompkins senior to his mother, reduced in size from the scanned 2550 X 3300 pixels to 1024 pixels wide and compressed further by color indexing.

mom-1.thumb.png.8f1a52362ee939207df4be05ce358a8b.png

mom-2.thumb.png.5d27c9990c422c2559f77e5259b74bac.png

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and extra sadly  it was a $2mil  restoration..     imagine having worked on that restoration for years and then have some yahoo at the back of the bus not look over their shoulder before making their move..

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From the article in Latitude 38 :

"Maritime law puts the burden on smaller vessels to keep clear of large ones, but we d ..."

 

Aside from what's smart, practical, prudent, whatever, is that statement true? Is there maritime law that says that (based only on size)? I'm not aware of any and would gladly be educated. I don't think COLREGS says that. No, I'm not interested in exercising any rights. I'd just like to know.

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I guess if 5 gallons of gas or a can of carpenter ants don't work, run it across a cargo freighter.;)

More believable by the insurance company 

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47 minutes ago, yllek said:

From the article in Latitude 38 :

"Maritime law puts the burden on smaller vessels to keep clear of large ones, but we d ..."

 

Aside from what's smart, practical, prudent, whatever, is that statement true? Is there maritime law that says that (based only on size)? I'm not aware of any and would gladly be educated. I don't think COLREGS says that. No, I'm not interested in exercising any rights. I'd just like to know.

Colregs don't apply on inland navigation. Diff regional sets of rules. German rivers and canals are usually very well regulated and well trafficked. 

Functionally with a ship of that size on the Elbe, looking at the AIS track posted above, the ship isn't going to be able to avoid the Elbe #5 without either risking grounding. 

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

Colregs don't apply on inland navigation. Diff regional sets of rules. German rivers and canals are usually very well regulated and well trafficked. 

Functionally with a ship of that size on the Elbe, looking at the AIS track posted above, the ship isn't going to be able to avoid the Elbe #5 without either risking grounding. 

Toss your normal rule book out the window when on most European inland waterways. The "Code Européen des Voies de la Navigation Intérieure" (CEVNI) or European Code for Navigation on Inland Waterways is the rule book for everything from markings, rules of the road, radio transmissions etc. A few EU countries don't use the code like UK which is not unexpected.

This include a system called "blue boarding" which is a sign that is about 60cm square for small vessels, larger for commercial and a flashing white light when sign is activated.

It is to allow upstream vessels to signal passing on the starboard side not port side. This is to allow vessels going downstream to elect to move to one side to stay out of the current to maintain manoeuvrability. "Inland AIS" system is also mandatory and the status of the "blue sign" is automatically transmitted with vessel particulars.

Looks to be a bend there with Elbe #5 on inside so this incident might be a case of "blue boarding" gone wrong. 

Motorfrachtschiff_Anroma_(ENI_02323909)_mit_Leichter_Quatro_(ENI_02332894)_am_Deutschen_Eck,_Koblenz-8679.jpg

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Inland and close to shore nations can set their own rules. Most of them do.
At the accident site the "German Traffic Regulations for Navigable Maritime Waterways" apply. [EN pdf]

Stuff like:

Quote

 

Part four
Sailing rules

[....]
§ 25 Right of way of ships in a fairway 
(1) In derogation of the provisions of Rules 9(b) to (d), 15, and 18(a) to (c) of the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, as amended, the regulations contained in the following paragraphs shall apply to vessels navigating in a fairway. 
(2) A vessel proceeding along the course of the fairway channel, irrespective of whether or not she can safely navigate only within the fairway channel, shall have the right of way over vessels 
1. entering that fairway, 
2. crossing that fairway, 
3. making turns in that fairway, 
4. leaving their anchoring or mooring grounds. 
(4) [....]

 

The collision is between two professional crewed ships. So there will be an official accident report in a while.

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4 hours ago, yllek said:

From the article in Latitude 38 :

"Maritime law puts the burden on smaller vessels to keep clear of large ones, but we d ..."

 

Aside from what's smart, practical, prudent, whatever, is that statement true? Is there maritime law that says that (based only on size)? I'm not aware of any and would gladly be educated. I don't think COLREGS says that. No, I'm not interested in exercising any rights. I'd just like to know.

To answer this question, the only mention of size affecting which vessel is the stand on or give way vessel is " A vessel of less than 20meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway." 

The only ambiguity I see is what if the sailing vessel can only operate in the narrow channel? 

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2 hours ago, ziper1221 said:

To answer this question, the only mention of size affecting which vessel is the stand on or give way vessel is " A vessel of less than 20meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway." 

The only ambiguity I see is what if the sailing vessel can only operate in the narrow channel? 

On the Elbe river commercial shipping always has right of way since there simply isn´t enough room for them to alter their course. Everyone who sails there knows this so it´s pretty clear who´s at fault. I can only immagine that they had some sort of mechanical problem which lead to the collision, especially since there were nearly 50 people on board so I can´t believe that not seeing the other ship coming was what led to the collision.

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12 hours ago, yllek said:

From the article in Latitude 38 :

"Maritime law puts the burden on smaller vessels to keep clear of large ones, but we d ..."

 

Aside from what's smart, practical, prudent, whatever, is that statement true? Is there maritime law that says that (based only on size)? I'm not aware of any and would gladly be educated. I don't think COLREGS says that. No, I'm not interested in exercising any rights. I'd just like to know.

The actual IRPCAS Rules would likely be 18 (b)(ii) A sailing vessel underway shall, so far as possible, keep out of the way of a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre. A ship, even a relatively small one takes a bit of turning and then there is the Rule 9 (b) "A vessel less than 20m OR a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

The ship does appear to be an overtaking vessel, did the make the correct sound signal? Or did they just assume the sailing vessel was bound to have seen them.

8 hours ago, ziper1221 said:

To answer this question, the only mention of size affecting which vessel is the stand on or give way vessel is " A vessel of less than 20meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway." 

The only ambiguity I see is what if the sailing vessel can only operate in the narrow channel? 

No scale on the chartlet above but the ship didn't have many options. there is 8m to the side of the main channel according to the above chartlet, enough I would have thought for the schooner but not likely enough for a small containership loaded down to her marks, she was very likely "constrained by her draught".

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6 minutes ago, ziper1221 said:

@shanghaisailor

RAM only applies to vessels that are restricted by the nature of their work, not size or draft 

Good point, then it comes down to constrained by draught, or does it?. I wonder what would happen if a VLCC, which takes 4 miles to stop and almost as much to turn?

The rule actually states "shall include but is not limited to" - interesting to see what a maritime court would actually rule if a smaller vessel tried to get a VLCC or similar sized bulker to give way but didn't take into account its turning circle or lack of brakes.

I'm not saying you are wrong ziper1221, just it would be an interesting argument

SS

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Also, I have no idea how European rules work, but I know that in US inland rules CBD doesn't exist

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26 minutes ago, ziper1221 said:

Also, I have no idea how European rules work, but I know that in US inland rules CBD doesn't exist

That's because the IRPCAS are formulated by the IMO - the International Maritime Organisation.

The clue is in the title International Regulations for Prevention of Collisions at Sea.

Not just USA and not Inland waterways. China also has some different rules, for example upriver and downriver boats but once you hit international water IRPCAS (commonly called the ColRegs) rules!

The book I use for reference is A Seaman's Guide to the Rule of the Road. Used by the Royal Navy amongst others to train seaman officers.

Just checked, still in print and available on Amazon, amazingly the same price I paid for my 2003 copy - Ha

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The river elbe has two legal schemes, from estuary to Hamburg Port its a Seeschiffahrtsstraße, a sea route, capable of entertaining seagoing vessels, from Hamburg upriver its a inland Waterway.

The collision occured on the Sea route, and here - as already pointed out by other forists - vessels entering , crossing or maneuvering in this route have to keep clear of vessels following this route independent of size of the vessel (exemption are vessels that have general way of right due to maneuvering handicaps such as draft). So its more or less like on the roads.

The Journalist who shot the photos, stated in a paper today that the schooner was manoeuvering awkwardly on the left side of the river in the driection to Hamburg (from his position the wrong side of the "road") not saying if it was in or out of the fairway; then swaying into the fairway and colliding with the containervessel. This does not correspond with the AIS Data above. It is also to be read that the captain of the Elbe 5. has not answered VHF messages warning him off the imanent danger.

Neither the Captain of Elbe 5. nor the Captain or Pilot of the Containervessels gave comments to the Police.

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1 hour ago, Sheik Yerbouti said:

Neither the Captain of Elbe 5. nor the Captain or Pilot of the Containervessels gave comments to the Police

That would be hard to believe, that the German police did not take statements, if that is what you mean by "comments". They must have opened an investigation.

 

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16 hours ago, jesposito said:

I guess if 5 gallons of gas or a can of carpenter ants don't work, run it across a cargo freighter.;)

More believable by the insurance company 

Is that what you plan to do with Hustler? 

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14 minutes ago, Squalamax said:

Is that what you plan to do with Hustler? 

After your performance at Figawi, you might want to try it.

With Hustler I'm going to leave the pin out of the hitch and head out on 95

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On 6/10/2019 at 10:05 AM, ProaSailor said:

On no!  How terrible.  'Wander Bird' is a ship full of history, including the decades she spent docked in Sausalito.

I recently rediscovered 53 files totaling ~300 Mbytes of scanned documents I found aboard 'Wander Bird' in the late 90s, when she was berthed in Sausalito, CA, where I was living at the time.  After returning the documents to the ship, I gave a copy of these files to Commodore Warwick Tompkins at the time.

I hope someone will take the time to read them, and that other papers I saw then but didn't scan got saved somehow too.  I've received no reply to repeated attempts to contact this organization with my treasure trove of documents found aboard this wonderful vessel.

https://www.lotsenschoner.de/das-schiff.html

I was astounded to find these papers casually stuffed somewhere aboard (near the chart table?), after decades of "wild life" at the dock in Sausalito.  

Here is an example of one letter from Warwick Tompkins senior to his mother, reduced in size from the scanned 2550 X 3300 pixels to 1024 pixels wide and compressed further by color indexing.

mom-1.thumb.png.8f1a52362ee939207df4be05ce358a8b.png

mom-2.thumb.png.5d27c9990c422c2559f77e5259b74bac.png

"It is impossible to conceive of anything again seriously hampering us..."

Written after WW I, after the great depression and just 10 months before Germany invades Rhineland.  Yep, impossible to conceive...

Good thing they got it out of town when they did.

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Looks like the collision happened where the historical ships out of Hamburg on a tourist run typically turn around...
Some voices -supposedly from inside the historical society owning the ship- say that the Schooner got stalled / stuck in irons.

Out of 43 on board there were 8 injuries. 2 lightly injured children, 2 seriously injured adults. One of the adults was flow into the hospital.

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Almost all info here is wrong. Even the map which has the route of the sailing boat totally wrong. And the place of the crash

16 hours ago, Chasm said:

Some voices -supposedly from inside the historical society owning the ship- say that the Schooner got stalled / stuck in irons

Yep, according the guy who took the photos too.
And the coaster had a pilot onboard, and traffic control tried to hail No5 with VHF. before the crash as other ships already had warned TC about his behaviour.
https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/hamburg/Havarie-der-No5-Elbe-Frachter-fuhr-korrekt,lotsenschoner164.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ply2khbvZkhMFLRDESHUmrV_seiHxujq4O0hl9Go3IHZJWRjbX8ySvUI

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The article says that a 82 year old ex river Elbe pilot was steering the schooner No.5 Elbe.

Go figure, probably blind and deaf.

 

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3 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

The article says that a 82 year old ex river Elbe pilot was steering the schooner No.5 Elbe.

Go figure, probably blind and deaf.  You can't place blame solely on the 82 year old steering the vessel.

 

Yes, but the story linked just above your post says there were 14 crew members on board, it is inexcusable that they were in that place at that time, with that many experienced hands on board.

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6 hours ago, LeoV said:

Almost all info here is wrong. Even the map which has the route of the sailing boat totally wrong. And the place of the crash

Yep, according the guy who took the photos too.
And the coaster had a pilot onboard, and traffic control tried to hail No5 with VHF. before the crash as other ships already had warned TC about his behaviour.

Leo,

Thank you for the insight and the article. I see that you're located next door to the Elbe in the Netherlands and thus probably have more local knowledge than most of us here. If the information contained within this thread is incorrect would you please direct us to more accurate sources?

I know everyone interested in this accident and the lessons it may yield would appreciate any contribution that keeps the conversation focused on facts rather than speculation. 

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Current thinking;
Schooner did not follow the rules of listening to vhf channel and keeping clear.
Why can not be answered without investigation.

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On 6/10/2019 at 6:59 PM, Chasm said:

Inland and close to shore nations can set their own rules. Most of them do.
At the accident site the "German Traffic Regulations for Navigable Maritime Waterways" apply. [EN pdf]

Stuff like:

Part four
Sailing rules

[....]
§ 25 Right of way of ships in a fairway 
(1) In derogation of the provisions of Rules 9(b) to (d), 15, and 18(a) to (c) of the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, as amended, the regulations contained in the following paragraphs shall apply to vessels navigating in a fairway. 
(2) A vessel proceeding along the course of the fairway channel, irrespective of whether or not she can safely navigate only within the fairway channel, shall have the right of way over vessels 
1. entering that fairway, 
2. crossing that fairway, 
3. making turns in that fairway, 
4. leaving their anchoring or mooring grounds. 
(4) [....]

The collision is between two professional crewed ships. So there will be an official accident report in a while.

 

what happens if you drive into the rough?

 

 

 

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On 6/10/2019 at 9:32 PM, ziper1221 said:

To answer this question, the only mention of size affecting which vessel is the stand on or give way vessel is " A vessel of less than 20meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway." 

The only ambiguity I see is what if the sailing vessel can only operate in the narrow channel? 

a sailboat wouldn't be tacking up a narrow channel, they'd probably be motoring..

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8 hours ago, LeoV said:

Almost all info here is wrong. Even the map which has the route of the sailing boat totally wrong. And the place of the crash

Yep, according the guy who took the photos too.
And the coaster had a pilot onboard, and traffic control tried to hail No5 with VHF. before the crash as other ships already had warned TC about his behaviour.
https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/hamburg/Havarie-der-No5-Elbe-Frachter-fuhr-korrekt,lotsenschoner164.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ply2khbvZkhMFLRDESHUmrV_seiHxujq4O0hl9Go3IHZJWRjbX8ySvUI

they don't have air horns on those ships..  a couple of toots would have woken someone up..

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8 minutes ago, LeoV said:

 

That's a horrifying display of lack of situational awareness followed by doing a pretty  dumb move to cross the bow!

 

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17 minutes ago, LeoV said:

 

Why not just bear away? What am I missing?

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Looks like they tried to tack in front instead of just falling off.

WTF?

Every bit as stupid and incompetent as this guy.

 

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Has Wander Bird been refloated yet?

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22 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

guy on the wheel is a moron..

 

and if i was on that boat, i would have decked him and taken over the wheel..

 

It's a tiller??

Anyway, WTF? NFW! Yes, morons.

Nobody dead eh? Lucky.

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No wheel, tiller.
The video makes it clear that the classical tiller mistake sealed the deal. Lots of mistakes before that.

AFAIK not refloated yet. Plan is to do it this weekend, divers already prepared the ship.

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47 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Looks like they tried to tack in front instead of just falling off.

WTF?

Every bit as stupid and incompetent as this guy.

 

Yacht skipper fined for Cowes Week collision with oil tanker

This idiot's fine came to £3,000 plus his costs plus £100,000 for the prosecution costs plus damages to his boat or insurance deductible. It could have been much worse. Why not just throw in two extra gybes!

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3 hours ago, KC375 said:

Why not just bear away? What am I missing?

Fall off!!!  Fall off!!!  

Jesus what a horrifying video.  Totally inexplicable behavior so far as I can see.  Would love to hear what was going on in the mind of the skipper.

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12 minutes ago, socalrider said:

Fall off!!!  Fall off!!!  

Jesus what a horrifying video.  Totally inexplicable behavior so far as I can see.  Would love to hear what was going on in the mind of the skipper.

i want to know what was going on in the minds of everyone else on the boat..   blind trust will get you killed..

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3 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

i want to know what was going on in the minds of everyone else on the boat..   blind trust will get you killed..

Indeed.  From the video it was something like...

- what a beautiful day!

- huh... that big boat seems to be headed right for us... stop being paranoid, I'm sure everything's fine...

- ...but it *really* looks like it's heading right for us... shit!

- Grab that stick thing and pull!!!

Realistically, you need blind trust every time you rely on an expert.  That's why the captain should go down with the ship.  

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The transcript -

this is what was sid on the video clip, who said what and which position the speaker has is not clear:

 

Male voice : Wat is he up to (Was hat der denn da vor).

 - Most probably this person goes midships and presses the electrical whistle  two times 5.

Male voice: Why is he doing that (Was das nun soll?) - referring to the cargo vessel

Male voice:   Bear off (  Abfallen!)

Other male voice: we are going to hit him (Den Treffen wir).

Male voice:  Hard to Port (Hart Backbord).

 - tiller is pushed to the port side, making the vessel turn starbord:

Male voice:  We are going to hit him right on (Den treffen wir volles Pfund)

----------

 

So its clear that.

Mistake 1: the vessel was going down the fairway on the wrong side -  the vessel was not supposed to be there anyway

Mistake 2: the speaker was under the impression that the cargo vessel had to give way, he was  sounding a signal instead of calling a evasive maneuver right away.

Mistake 3: The guy on the tiller pushed to the wrong side and others helped.

 

 

 

 

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It is hard to tell from vid angle but my impression is from the outset the cargo vessel was expecting a starboard to starboard pass (blue-board up?) and maybe normal in that section of waterway as that side favours large vessels because of down stream current or some constraint? However the Ebe 5 kept going for a port to port pass/normal turn to starboard collision avoidance right to the end.

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This is not inland waterways on the outer elbe: no blue boards.

Everybody is supposed to stick to their side of the road.

no starboard to starboard pass allowed

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The video combined with the transcript leads to a conclusion of assertive application of ignorance and incompetence

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49 minutes ago, Sheik Yerbouti said:

This is not inland waterways on the outer elbe: no blue boards.

Everybody is supposed to stick to their side of the road.

no starboard to starboard pass allowed

Wrong, it´s common practice for sailboats to use the entire width of the river when going upwind. Starboard to starboard passes between commercial shipping and sailboats are not an issue. Usually sailboats manage to keep clear of the bigger ships though...

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Ho Lee Cow! That magnitude of incompetence and boobery boggles the mind.

Your average El Toro sailor could have saved #5. More importantly they wouldn't have got close enough to require the vessel to be saved.

Who vetted the skipper? Was (s)he the biggest donor of the recent refit? The best cock sucker?

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whelp. that settles that. 

what a waste. a beautiful vessel with a long history of both of both great seaman as well as acts of seamanship. sunk by what is sure to become a historic lack of seamanship. 

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That's a plausible explanation. They wanted to turn to port, so they put the tiller to port. 

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errr ......................

 

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Association website says they're bringing in a Spanish salvage operator to refloat her. Staff flew in and truck with float-bags & material sent. Hope/expect  to have her up on Monday and move to Hamburg. Diving operations slowed by tidal currents (4kts); they can only work at slack tides.

 

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On 6/14/2019 at 8:15 AM, KC375 said:

Why not just bear away? What am I missing?

 

It appears that the crew is standing in front of the skipper blocking his view.  The crew has no experience, does not see that the bearing is not changing and that impact is all but guaranteed on this course.  Once they suddenly realize impact is imminent, they start making noise, the skipper now sees as the bodies in front of him start shifting around.  Too late.

 

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10 hours ago, spankoka said:

That's a plausible explanation. They wanted to turn to port, so they put the tiller to port. 

As a young sailor I was completely at home with a tiller – it was intuitive. I remember my first time at the wheel of a larger sailboat – instincts were all wrong – I started each maneuver turning the helm to the wrong side. After a few (dozen) screw up I had it figured out – fortunately we were not in a place that one of those S turns would have put us in danger.

If you are are an adult whose spent a lifetime driving cars and not familiar with tillers...this could be a very easy mistake...told to turn to port so you put the tiller to port. I don’t blame the inexperienced crew. I blame the afterguard who put the ship in a position beyond the abilities of the crew...and ultimately the people who chose the afterguard.

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6 minutes ago, Monkey Butler said:

More sailboat vs. ferry video. Woods Hole Mass.

 

Actually two power boats, one of them happened to have masts.

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On 6/15/2019 at 7:18 PM, 10thTonner said:

I wonder who were those guys who pushed the tiller the wrong way? Some random guests who never sailed before? 

It doesn't look like that at all in the video. The boat is already turning clearly to starboard before they take the lines off and push the tiller all the way. When they pushed it was clearly too late to turn port.

How was the boat steered with the lines? Was it the same guys pushing the tiller.

The AIS map must be totally wrong. Or maybe green is the track of the ship, but the brown one is going into the same direction not bow to bow like in the video.

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13 minutes ago, Joakim said:

It doesn't look like that at all in the video. The boat is already turning clearly to starboard before they take the lines off and push the tiller all the way. When they pushed it was clearly too late to turn port.

How was the boat steered with the lines? Was it the same guys pushing the tiller.

The AIS map must be totally wrong. Or maybe green is the track of the ship, but the brown one is going into the same direction not bow to bow like in the video.

The AIS map above is post event.... it shows Elbe 5 being towed into Stadersand where she settles on the bottom.

 

The collision occured near Luehesand... you can see the power pylons on the ship's starboard quarter, on openCPN, and on GoogleEarth.

 

Fairway is just on 2 cables wide in that area and no water outside it.

 

Luehesand.jpg

Stade.jpg

Stader-Elbestrasser.jpg

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Yes I had figured it out it was close to Luehesand as I saw the air power lines in the map. But I thought it was on the other side (North Sea side) of it. Isn't there a red buoy on the starboard side of the ship in the collision photo? Or is that something else? Was the ship going towards Hamburg or North Sea?

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'Was the ship going towards Hamburg or North Sea?'

That's what I am unsure of as well.... could have been either end of Luehesand...

Given how long it took Elbe 5 to settle on the bottom after the prang I reckon it will buff right out.... they just need to replace the soft furnishings is all......

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In the NDR.de article it says: " Das Containerschiff, das in Richtung Elbmündung unterwegs war, fuhr korrekt auf der rechten, nördlichen Fahrwasserseite - diese ersten Ermittlungsergebnisse hat die Wasserschutzpolizei am Montag mitgeteilt."

So the ship was going to sea.

Strange that there does not seem to be a proper AIS or radar track (yet).

Strange also, as Master Dreadful mentioned earlier, that there was no proper warning signal from the ship, as they knew the No5 Elbe was sailing "erratically" and did not respond on the compulsory VHF.

 

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On 6/16/2019 at 4:01 AM, trisail said:

I thought the golden (common sense) rule is Mass x Velocity = Right of way.

It's called the tonnage rule, simply put if he's bigger and heavier then you stay out of the friggin way.

Anyone navigating in confined waters should know that "power giving way to sail"  is bullshit, big commercial vessels are often restricted by their draft.

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13 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

"power giving way to sail

You didn't read the thread ?

 

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Sure did, just reminding some on this thread to stay out of the way- simple as that.

Did a trans Tasman about 5 years ago, we had an experienced racing bowman on board that thought the container ship heading towards us with no change in bearing was going to have to give way to us,  fortunate that I had just come on watch , it could have ended badly,  it required motor on and a handbrake turn.

Have had several close calls, no VHF response from their bridge and probably a filipino junior reading a penthouse, now I would not go offshore without AIS.

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Marinetraffic is not always a great AIS source, the blips can be minutes apart.
 

The BSU will have more than enough things to go over in the investigation.
The Elbe with its traffic traffic is highly monitored. Radar, AIS, VHF and other forms of communication are recorded by traffic control. Then there are the rescue service boats that saw it happen, the video and perhaps some private videos too. Crews to be interviewed. 

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Indeed, and undoubtedly they will do this very "gründlich".

And the 82 year old Captain will lose his pilot license that expired 25 years ago...:o

 

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2 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

 

Strange also, as Master Dreadful mentioned earlier, that there was no proper warning signal from the ship, as they knew the No5 Elbe was sailing "erratically" and did not respond on the compulsory VHF.

 

not quite right Fiji. In the video the container ship complies with IRPCAS Rule 34 (d) and can TWICE be heard to make the signal "I do not understand your intention" (5 short blasts) which roughly translates into either "have you seen me" or "what the fuck are you doing"so although there may have been people standing in the skipper's way, they were not in the way of his hearing. Besides if the Elbe skipper could not see where he was going or what potential danger lay ahead he was not complying with IRPCAS Rule 5.

Just my read on it. Either way, any incident that causes damage or injury is not pleasant.

SS

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