Gouvernail

Nobody Wants To Take Up Sailing

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5 hours ago, Gabe_nyc said:

I worry about this kind of stuff too and about the general virtual-izing of life (such as “talking” to internet strangers about how unsatisfying the actual humans in our actual lives sometimes are) (:-) (:-)

This particular discussion begins to veer into sociology, philosophy and all sorts of other disciplines I know very little about, but I’ve seen its insidious effect in other pursuits and it will be an increasingly real factor we will all be running into.

For instance people can participate in low-cost auto-racing w Sports Car Club of America, or they can just build elaborate simulator setups at home and “race” a computer or against other people in different locations. For these people, I am not sure how you would go about making a case that actual real racing is better than simulated racing where the weather is always good and if you crash there are no extra costs or delays.

For sailing, the sims appear to be relatively crude, and trimming the mainsheet by clicking a mouse lacks a certain “je ne sais quoi” (:-)

But let’s say that somebody develops a full-size setup where you ride a rig like a Waszp foiler with active motion and an immersive VR environment.

I think that such a thing could provide a pretty compelling experience  and that people would enjoy “racing” against one another, from all over the world, without having to contend with travel, crap weather, and mosquitos.

How would you go about showing these people that the fun they’re having is “inferior” due to the waves, wind, birds and horizon being simulated? 

So anyway, the scenario I described is pretty close to happening and pretty close in some respects to your 6-motherfuckers-playing-Pokémon-GO-on-the-cabin-top scenario. It will be an increasingly common thing to run into, and I have no idea how to begin to think about it ...

I hate the idea.  Sim racing seems ridiculous to me.  I want to be outside as much as possible.

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33 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

I hate the idea.  Sim racing seems ridiculous to me.  I want to be outside as much as possible.

I agree completely, but we have both the example of the “6-motherfuckers-on-the-cabin-top,” as well other examples in other fields where I’ve seem folks of all ages get caught up in “virtual” pursuits.

———

As a matter of fact, while searching for sailing sims earlier, I came across a “car mechanic simulator” which seems incredibly odd to me, but, I guess that these are the times we live in ... (:-)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hzSPMq9ejeA

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Endurance sim racing is an amazing experience.

 A 24 hour event at Nordschleife experience will stay with you for months. The immersion, physical and mental demands are very real. Race craft is similar to sailing.

 The dynamics of sharing a car with multiple drivers spread out over the globe is challenging. 

 At no time have I given up outdoor activities to sit in the rig and race.

 The wheel is a direct drive servo motor with 20nm of feed back. Pedals are equally scary, brake requires driving shoes.

 Next upgrade, motion platform.

 

 I absolutely love sim racing. Getting out of the car (hitting esc) and handing the next driver a clean car after a double fuel stint is an amazing feeling. Kind of like handing the boat over to the next watch. It is a sport that makes me sweat bullets and yields fore arms holding a tiller could not.........

https://photos.app.goo.gl/2NI6h97cziFq5OKu2

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XlvSWQq2eQAJxYWt2

20190323_192318.jpg

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7 hours ago, Ajax said:

This. You have no idea how often I hear that from people who ask me about sailing and people whom I've taken sailing.

We try to blame stuff like lack of disposable time, income, lack of public water access blah, blah, blah but a sad and inconvenient truth is, the effort required to go sailing just puts people off in today's society. Sailing is not fucking convenient, nor is it instant gratification. It requires effort and passion. It requires prioritizing it above other hobbies and interests. It often conflicts with family (because your wife and kids hate it). Even trailer-sailing or small dinghy racing/sailing requires time, effort and passion.

People want shit that they can casually toss in the trunk of their car, or on the roof rack of their Subaru Impreza, like kite sailing, SUP'ing and snow boarding. They want rapid proficiency for maximum gratification (read: easy). 

One fine Saturday, I took 6 co-workers out for a "lunch 'n sail."  We were on the boat for 10...TEN fucking minutes. I was motoring around the corner to a clear area to put up sails. I looked up from the compass and saw six motherfuckers sitting on my cabin top all staring intently into their smartphones on a gorgeous, sunny day oblivious to everything around them.  I cleared my throat and called out "What are you guys up to?"  My hand to God, one of them looked at me as if I'd woke her from a nap and said "We're playing Pokemon GO." 

I'll be happy if just enough other humans sail to sustain the industries needed to provide parts and materials to keep my boat operational so that I can keep sailing. I'm sorry, but I've given up trying to "save sailing" or whatever.  I won't take non-sailors out anymore and whenever non-sailors ask about my "hobby" I just shrug and tell them that it's not very interesting and I change the subject.

Hell truly is other people.

Oh god this shit, yeah I hear you there Ajax.

Almost everyone I know is in their 20's, except the sailing folks and family.

But this is absolutely killing me, almost every single person I know is completely addicted to their phones. It's like they can't operate without them. I'm so over people trying to have a conversation with you WHILE they are scrolling through stuff and looking at their phone. More than once I have walked away from someone mid conversation and wondered if they would even notice.

We are considering building a faraday cage at work to disable employees phones completely, between the 30 minute toilet breaks and the lengthy periods of time where people are at their desks but there are no clicks it's getting fucking absurd.

Congratulations to the next generation of people who will turn 40, start watching their friends die around them and realise that they never actually did anything with their lives.

I have a housemate, who's a top bloke, but works 40-50 hours a week and plays a single video game 40 hours a week, he's done the same thing, the same job and same game for 3 years straight. He stokes on the fact he's a top 10 player but he's literally pissed away his entire 20's, and he get's married soon, so I have no doubt it'll all end soon once kids come along, and I wonder if he'll spend the rest of his life thinking "fuck I wish I actually did something when I could".

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18 minutes ago, PeterRoss said:

Endurance sim racing is an amazing experience.

I agree completely that sims can be wonderful and also add that for younger generations (I am 55), it is likely that virtual experiences may seem more “real” than they do to older folks.

It is foreseeable that as sims and VR get better, the effort and increasing expenses of keeping a non-virtual sailboat in the water will seem more trouble than they’re worth to some people.

This will likely be an additional factor and obstacle to consider in terms of how potential new recruits relate / respond to sailing and sailboat racing.

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We ran a 6 hour event at Watkins Glen in July. My co driver was 55, a youngster. Our team car had 4 drivers, needed 4 drivers, Haha. Their collective ages, 86. Ours, 117 years. It was as real to me as it gets, without vr. I'm not the oldest sim racer on iRacing at 62  but plan on being the oldest one day. Can't say the same about sailing, it's polluted.

 What I cannot stand is the non stop need for social media. Streaming and live Twitching is as annoying as the need to post on Facebook or Instagram or whatever nonsense is current.

 The thing that makes the one sport I love possible (sim racing) has killed sailing. The internet 

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Something completely opposite of sims and immersive experiences has also affected sailing in a negative way;

The social media platforms (FB, Insta, etc.) encourage people to paint these unrealistic, incredible portraits of their lives. In order to paint the most incredible story-portrait, people can't confine themselves to a single, time consuming activity such as sailing. These folks have feeds showing them attacking the world from every angle of "extreme sports"-  Kite boarding, hiking across Europe, dangling from El Capitan by one finger, free diving with blue whales, eating hemp and candied crickets with the Dali Lama, etc.

If they aren't putting something new, extreme and exotic in their Insta-feeds every week, they might be viewed as mediocre. These people are addicted to the "likes" and clicks from their "followers."  Unless you're doing the VOR, sailing is boring, sedate and only one activity among hundreds that these people are trying to fill their feeds with.

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30 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Something completely opposite of sims and immersive experiences has also affected sailing in a negative way;

The social media platforms (FB, Insta, etc.) encourage people to paint these unrealistic, incredible portraits of their lives. In order to paint the most incredible story-portrait, people can't confine themselves to a single, time consuming activity such as sailing. These folks have feeds showing them attacking the world from every angle of "extreme sports"-  Kite boarding, hiking across Europe, dangling from El Capitan by one finger, free diving with blue whales, eating hemp and candied crickets with the Dali Lama, etc.

If they aren't putting something new, extreme and exotic in their Insta-feeds every week, they might be viewed as mediocre. These people are addicted to the "likes" and clicks from their "followers."  Unless you're doing the VOR, sailing is boring, sedate and only one activity among hundreds that these people are trying to fill their feeds with.

 100% agree.

 

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40 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

"Sim" is short for simulation.  Sorry, a simulation will never be as good as the real thing.  

But it IS likely to be cheaper!

 

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Ajax, add me +1. FWIW, never attended FB...anonymity is best.

Edited by BobBill

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56 minutes ago, Veeger said:

But it IS likely to be cheaper!

 

Yep, fakes and reproductions tend to be cheaper for sure.  I never got into video games as a kid because I was always outside doing something else.  The friends I had in my neighborhood chose to keep playing video games and I suppose they're the ones stoked to still be playing video games.  Yes, anything SIM is just a video game.  I think it's a terrible way of life.  I suspect gamers eat worse and sleep worse than people who work and recreate outside.  And that's very sad to me.  Oh well, I'll keep sailing and taking people sailing.  Because then they at least had the experience and maybe for someone it will stimulate something in their soul that desires to be outside.

 

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I consider myself an escapee from the gaming world. I played a lot when I was younger, but finally figured out that real life was better.

Will future generations really lie on their death beds feeling satisfaction about all the sims that they crushed during their lives? I knew I wouldn't, so I put the controller down and haven't looked back.

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Is sailing something done or felt?

i.e. (power) Boating is not the same as sailing...IMO.

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9 hours ago, PeterRoss said:

Endurance sim racing is an amazing experience.

 A 24 hour event at Nordschleife experience will stay with you for months. The immersion, physical and mental demands are very real. Race craft is similar to sailing.

 The dynamics of sharing a car with multiple drivers spread out over the globe is challenging. 

 At no time have I given up outdoor activities to sit in the rig and race.

 The wheel is a direct drive servo motor with 20nm of feed back. Pedals are equally scary, brake requires driving shoes.

 Next upgrade, motion platform.

 

 I absolutely love sim racing. Getting out of the car (hitting esc) and handing the next driver a clean car after a double fuel stint is an amazing feeling. Kind of like handing the boat over to the next watch. It is a sport that makes me sweat bullets and yields fore arms holding a tiller could not.........

https://photos.app.goo.gl/2NI6h97cziFq5OKu2

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XlvSWQq2eQAJxYWt2

20190323_192318.jpg

when I was a kid in Germany we did endurance racing with 1/32 slot cars. 6 kid teams. we each had our car and controllers and would switch off every two hours. the venue I went to was created in a warehouse and had replicas of Le Mans, Nurburgring,  Watkins Glen, Silverston and a couple others. was a monthly even at this place and we were in a sort of league...   I think I'd rather do that again than play thru a tv screen.

would love to do a 24 hours of Lemons...... google it

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On 7/27/2019 at 7:53 PM, Steam Flyer said:

The sport of sailboat racing has a big problem. Most of the places I go, attendance is down. In some places it has died completely, as in, none.

Fuckwits with toxic personalities are driving people out. Arguing over ratings is not fun. Worrying about people crashing into you because either they are less-than-fully-competent (I include not paying close enough attention) or because they think rues are for other people and winners never flinch, is not fun.

I've had good fun racing in a small two person boat, and one-design is the only true competition, but there are more collisions than I am comfortable with..... I literally had to collisions in the prior 40+ years of racing before retiring/cruising. Coming back to racing is like a different world.

FB- Doug

This...

Sailboat racing for some reason attracts Type A assholes who confuse competition with life and death. May be it is just in the USA, but I have raced in several classes multi and mono and have left each behind because of the toxic rude "competitive" individuals who make racing unbearable. Given the other obstacles to new sailors described in this thread, the last straw is going to be meeting Type A Tom on your first trip around the cans.

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4 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

"Sim" is short for simulation.  Sorry, a simulation will never be as good as the real thing.  

True, but I doubt he burns through 800 dollars worth of tires every two hours like I do when I do a track day, and my car takes cheap tires. Then factor in the cost of wear and tear, track time, etc. I bet I could build a pretty cool sim rig for the cost of one track day. 

Then I could actually afford more than one or two outings a year. I think I’m actually going to look into this as a winter hobby. 

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Sailing or racing...one or the other...no reason to run, just smile and love it.

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34 minutes ago, Monkey said:

True, but I doubt he burns through 800 dollars worth of tires every two hours like I do when I do a track day, and my car takes cheap tires. Then factor in the cost of wear and tear, track time, etc. I bet I could build a pretty cool sim rig for the cost of one track day. 

Then I could actually afford more than one or two outings a year. I think I’m actually going to look into this as a winter hobby. 

Money well spent, IMO!  Just keep that SIM shit to a winter hobby.  :)

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1 hour ago, BobBill said:

Never swilled beer on a "sim." 

That’s where you’re wrong. I’d never consider driving on a track after drinking. However, drunken endurance racing video games sound great!

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Twas just (dim) humor...sailing and swilling are funnnnn!

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On 8/7/2019 at 11:55 PM, Swimsailor said:

I hate the idea.  Sim racing seems ridiculous to me.  I want to be outside as much as possible.

I used to sail on SailX during the off season, which was a virtual sailing simulator with a top down view or a 3D view. It was nothing like an actual sailing simulation. Mostly it acted as a racing rules simulation. I learned more about sailboat racing and rules management than in months or years of reading the rulebook and watching YouTube videos and attending seminars. It got to the point where I became the assigned rules person on our boat, able to cite the specific rule and all of this from attending virtual protests in the evenings! 

It is a shame that game went away. 

Anyway this is off-topic. I've brought a few people sailing and very few of them stick with it. The young college aged people just don't have the interest from what I've found and it is not until you get folks in their 50s with perhaps some free time after raising the kids that you see visitors transitioning into sailors and eventually owners. Personally I'm about done with racing and thinking of transitioning out of sailboat racing (currently crew on a 30 foot one design for the past 6 years) and picking up kitesurfing or getting back into windsurfing. It's either that or dropping sailing entirely for my list of 15 other potential hobbies including a motorcycle. 

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On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 10:19 AM, Guvacine said:

This...

Sailboat racing for some reason attracts Type A assholes who confuse competition with life and death. May be it is just in the USA, but I have raced in several classes multi and mono and have left each behind because of the toxic rude "competitive" individuals who make racing unbearable. Given the other obstacles to new sailors described in this thread, the last straw is going to be meeting Type A Tom on your first trip around the cans.

All competition, whether it be bikes, cars, boats, triathlon, etc, attracts Type A assholes.  Hell, I'm guilty of being an asshole back as a younger dude carrying a chip on my shoulder.  Hopefully my competitors see that I have matured in 20 years and I'm never accused of being an asshole again.  The goal in my club is to provide a format and culture where the assholes feel very unwelcome and the non-assholes find a place with us to race.

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15 minutes ago, fprintf said:

I learned more about sailboat racing and rules management than in months or years of reading the rulebook and watching YouTube videos and attending seminars. It got to the point where I became the assigned rules person on our boat, able to cite the specific rule and all of this from attending virtual protests in the evenings! 

I had been meaning to ask about this exact thing. 

Especially if you can run it with the clock speed set at 200% or whatever, it seems like it would be a tremendous learning tool to use during the off-season.

My only caveat re sims is a gem from a flight instructor who said that “Practice makes permanent” — if you practice the wrong thing in a sim, you could be even worse off than if you had practiced nothing at all.

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1 hour ago, Gabe_nyc said:

I had been meaning to ask about this exact thing. 

Especially if you can run it with the clock speed set at 200% or whatever, it seems like it would be a tremendous learning tool to use during the off-season.

My only caveat re sims is a gem from a flight instructor who said that “Practice makes permanent” — if you practice the wrong thing in a sim, you could be even worse off than if you had practiced nothing at all.

With SailX the advantage was that you could argue the merits of an incident with an actual moving clip of the incident, and that someone had to make a decision in the end.

There were undoubtedly wrong decisions, but the vast majority of the decisions were correct, and the process of discussing them definitely improved understanding.

 

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7 hours ago, JohnMB said:

With SailX the advantage was that you could argue the merits of an incident with an actual moving clip of the incident, and that someone had to make a decision in the end.

There were undoubtedly wrong decisions, but the vast majority of the decisions were correct, and the process of discussing them definitely improved understanding.

So the decisions were made by some sort of AI, or was there a person at the other end?

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On 6/9/2019 at 9:58 AM, Gouvernail said:

Note: The thread title was chosen to attract the attention of those who believe... 

I want to see the posts from those folks who have ...offered to teach and generally help get new people imvolved.

Let’s find some methods where we as individuals can successfully help other individuals come join and enjoy our games. 

I just today gave away my 1965 Cal 20, sail #182, to two young keen dreamers.  The boat needs some work - for sure.  But they’re keen, want a good boat, and want to go sailing.  I couldn’t be bothered to sell it - for what maybe a few hundred dollars?  I did everything I could to inspire them with my tales of sailing derring-do :-) and also gave them my copy of “Blackfeathers” (story of a Cal 20 in the Singlehanded Transpac Race) for guidance and inspiration.  They’re psyched to get a free boat and trailer!  Time for Calico to go to new owners and new adventures!

3FE8CFC6-C5D0-498C-9859-ED1447919EFB.png

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11 hours ago, Gabe_nyc said:

So the decisions were made by some sort of AI, or was there a person at the other end?

It came in two phases. The AI would do most of the decision-making and penalties real-time in the race, and most of the time it would get them right. Port-Starboard, windward/leeward, mark roundings. On the occasion it wouldn't get them right both competitors could quickly resolve things and re-assign a penalty, with the penalized boat needing to do turns to continue in the race. In the instance that the penalty wasn't reassigned or a debate occurred a protest could be lodged.

When a protest was lodged it was taken to an online forum where a replay of the incident was available. The protester would describe the incident and the protestee was required to come and defend their point of view. This is where a panel of judges would be assigned to arbitrate the dispute and would rule just like a normal protest committee. There are several anarchists including @Mambo Kings that were frequent sailors and/or helping to run things. It is a real shame it had to die and I surely hope something like it will come along as a replacement as you learned about rules in the sim, you learned by protesting and being protested, and you learned by being in the protest online forum and reading about other incidents. . 

 

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17 minutes ago, fprintf said:

It is a real shame it had to die and I surely hope something like it will come along as a replacement as you learned about rules in the sim, you learned by protesting and being protested, and you learned by being in the protest online forum and reading about other incidents.

It’s funny how these things go. It might not be considered “modern” because the graphics are not up to snuff, but for the people who can benefit from it, the graphics would be very secondary as long as the physics modeling was accurate enough ...

Hopefully somebody will decide to bring it back in some form ...

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11 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I just today gave away my 1965 Cal 20, sail #182, to two young keen dreamers.  The boat needs some work - for sure.  But they’re keen, want a good boat, and want to go sailing.  I couldn’t be bothered to sell it - for what maybe a few hundred dollars?  I did everything I could to inspire them with my tales of sailing derring-do :-) and also gave them my copy of “Blackfeathers” (story of a Cal 20 in the Singlehanded Transpac Race) for guidance and inspiration.  They’re psyched to get a free boat and trailer!  Time for Calico to go to new owners and new adventures!

3FE8CFC6-C5D0-498C-9859-ED1447919EFB.png

I think you have just given me the inspiration as to what to do with AnnaEleise, when the time comes that we will no longer be sailing her.  Her value is all but worthless on the market, but she is still a capable little boat.  (That’s if Will III decided he does not want to own her.). 

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2 hours ago, Santana20AE said:

I think you have just given me the inspiration as to what to do with AnnaEleise, when the time comes that we will no longer be sailing her.  Her value is all but worthless on the market, but she is still a capable little boat.  (That’s if Will III decided he does not want to own her.). 

For us it was the way to go - honestly, I probably should’ve listed it for $500, but then I’d have to field all kinds of “annoying” questions about this and that.  It’s a second boat (other one is an oceangoing 33’ cruising boat, which takes way more of my time, and that we want to do a Hawaii trip on soon!  Need to focus on that...), so we just wanted it gone - to a good home.  (I purposely ignored some replies I read to my Craigslist ad - nope, you don’t sound like the right person to own this good ol’ boat and neglect and trash it and abandon it.) Free meant, as is, it’ll float, it’ll sail, yes, it needs work - but look at the magic we’ve had with it over the years (owner for 9 years almost to the day we got it; never thought it’d be that long!), culminating in doing Stage 1 Race to Alaska with my 14 year old keen sailor daughter last summer.  How cool is that.  Keep the sailing dream alive :-)

Pic: crossing the start line at 5 a.m. in Port Townsend, WA last June.

Hope your Santana 20 goes to a good home.  That’s likely my next second boat (no!) when I’m ready.  BTW, the trailer with my boat made it very attractive to would-be owners - likely the deciding factor for most people.

593000F2-B9DC-46A8-89C5-BB3F43C6EB7D.png

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On 8/28/2019 at 1:09 PM, fprintf said:

I used to sail on SailX during the off season, which was a virtual sailing simulator with a top down view or a 3D view. It was nothing like an actual sailing simulation. Mostly it acted as a racing rules simulation. I learned more about sailboat racing and rules management than in months or years of reading the rulebook and watching YouTube videos and attending seminars. It got to the point where I became the assigned rules person on our boat, able to cite the specific rule and all of this from attending virtual protests in the evenings! 

It is a shame that game went away. 

Anyway this is off-topic. I've brought a few people sailing and very few of them stick with it. The young college aged people just don't have the interest from what I've found and it is not until you get folks in their 50s with perhaps some free time after raising the kids that you see visitors transitioning into sailors and eventually owners. Personally I'm about done with racing and thinking of transitioning out of sailboat racing (currently crew on a 30 foot one design for the past 6 years) and picking up kitesurfing or getting back into windsurfing. It's either that or dropping sailing entirely for my list of 15 other potential hobbies including a motorcycle. 

Hi.....this is VMK from Sailx.  I see you are at Cedar Point.  I am at Noroton YC, just up the Sound.

Sailx was an extraordinary online community of sailors from around the world. It really honed my team racing tactics and where else could you go head to head with some of the best sailors in the world tactically. 

I thought it was also interesting that real life great sailors like Steve Hunt and Jimmy Spithill would also win on sailX.

 

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On 8/29/2019 at 9:08 AM, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I just today gave away my 1965 Cal 20, sail #182, to two young keen dreamers.  The boat needs some work - for sure.  But they’re keen, want a good boat, and want to go sailing.  I couldn’t be bothered to sell it - for what maybe a few hundred dollars?  I did everything I could to inspire them with my tales of sailing derring-do :-) and also gave them my copy of “Blackfeathers” (story of a Cal 20 in the Singlehanded Transpac Race) for guidance and inspiration.  They’re psyched to get a free boat and trailer!  Time for Calico to go to new owners and new adventures!

3FE8CFC6-C5D0-498C-9859-ED1447919EFB.png

I've played those dreamers; the old dude who saw hope in me never suspected I was headed straight to the scrap yard with $800 of lead and a trailer.

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FWIW.

The below rig is recycled HobieCat 19 and 16 (outrigger) hulls. Added 6061/carbon (recycled bse-damaged spars) hook and loop luff (220 square foot sail and mohogany decking).

All per original Seamann surfer plans for wood. 

Just learned "resin" is not biodegradeable...and so not know what to do, as want to lighten ama (outrigger), replacing with foam hull. 

Idea was to saw and send to landfill...seems wrong. Resin...what do people do?

Anyway, point is: like above, ancient hull still working; the young have a gift and will love and learn...one way or other.

 

GnarlyStreet05.1.jpg

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"NTW" know a better way to learn? Dinghy or tonner...wood or glass or ...

The "suckers" are those who never take a step forward and learn...just follow...as most of us have long-known.

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9 hours ago, Keysrock35 said:

I've played those dreamers; the old dude who saw hope in me never suspected I was headed straight to the scrap yard with $800 of lead and a trailer.

Well, as they say, there’s always an asshole somewhere.

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NTW, Dig! 

Was one word and did not wish to discourage their entuthiasms and good intent, especially re sailing rigs, was all. I hope they enjoy it and pass it on...

FWIW, My first rig was wood...dryrot in spots, not free, so anal me had to fix...never lost that fix-fun, and that boat is still going.

Did a few more and gave the last one away...was nice, and giving a mistake few get "free" and appreciate it, you get my drift...

You learned, obviously. Gnarly (latest) taught me how hard riggers work and got me into foam...still learning and love creating stuff, so often "free" is more than dumping...to me.

Very good.

 

 

Quote

 

 

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