Gouvernail

Nobody Wants To Take Up Sailing

Recommended Posts

Do not post a reply in this thread unless in the last few weeks you have actually invited at least ten people to come sailing with you and each one has declined. 

Or

You have invited people sailing, taught them a bit about how Sailboats work, helped those people find other rides, helped some find their own boats, and done some mentoring to enhance the new folks’ experience, 

and you want to present a bit of a “how one guy does it” article. 

We can all discuss how our systems are failing and we just can’t seem to interest anyone in sailing Sailboats, and those who have been more successful can share their experience. 

 

Note: The thread title was chosen to attract the attention of those who believe sailing is a dying sport because it sucks so bad compared to all the other available recreational activities.  

It was chosen for all those who have seen sailor after sailor leave the sport to take up rollerblading, hula hoop, frisbee golf, rock climbing, lawn darts, rugby, ms PAC Man, and all the myriad of other recreational activities that compete for our attention. 

I want to see the posts from those folks who have repeatedly invited people sailing  and offered to teach and generally help get new people out on the water only to be told, “No thanks! I have much better ways to spend my time.”

Let’s find some methods where we as individuals can successfully help other individuals come join and enjoy our games. 

 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't seem to have any problem getting people out on the water. The key is to make sure they have a good time. I supply beer, good food, and a pleasant day. None of them have rushed out to buy boats immediately thereafter but they always leave with good memories and I wouldn't be surprised if and when their circumstances permit, they'll end up with a boat of their own. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Do not post a reply in this thread unless in the last few weeks you have actually invited at least ten people to come sailing with you and each one has declined. 

....    ...    ...

 

Umm, I hate to be the one to tell you this........ it might not be the sailing.........

But seriously, it is a great idea to somehow mandate taking new people out sailing.

My personal answer is this

http://nbnjrotc-sail.blogspot.com/

FB- Doug

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

No thanks! I have much better ways to spend my time.

This is pretty much my position at this point. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm into the triple digits of people I invited sailing. Almost 15% had prior sailing experience that I know of; a little under 10% were/are regular crew. (Those two groups overlap some). For much of the remainder, sailing was a "one off" experience that they enjoyed, but it didn't spark a deeper interest. Curiously, some of them showed real aptitude and were quick to learn. Some have joined me several times, without aspiring to become regular crew, take up sailing on their own, or join other boats.

I get a sense, even those that are interested don't know how to fit sailing into their lives. (Those that do, already sail). Whether it's the time commitment, or managing the logistics of their own boat (doesn't matter whether it would be a keelboat or a dinghy on a trailer). Some end up trying a few things and then settling on a different passion.

In some ways, I can understand that. Took me thirty years from my first ride on a sailboat to making sailing a regular part of my life.

So, from a "growing the sport" perspective, I could conclude these efforts were a total bust. But primarily, I go on the water for my own reasons and sharing that with friends and others that may become friends is just more fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All it takes to keep the passtime/sport from declining is that each boat owner convert someone else into a boat owner before the first one gives up their own boat. It's a numbers game. It may take years, it may take hundreds of casual guest sails, but it only takes one conversion to get the job done. If you can convert two, the sport grows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, green03 said:

Took me thirty years from my first ride on a sailboat to making sailing a regular part of my life.

Sailing has been a regular part of my life for 30 years, and at age 40 I'm almost on my way out.

 

1 hour ago, IStream said:

All it takes to keep the passtime/sport from declining is that each boat owner convert someone else into a boat owner before the first one gives up their own boat. It's a numbers game. It may take years, it may take hundreds of casual guest sails, but it only takes one conversion to get the job done. If you can convert two, the sport grows.

See above

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've taken MANY MANY newbies out sailing over the years. Never a problem finding people who want to sail with me (but then again I live in sailing nirvana). Of all the people I've introduced to sailing, I'd say the majority of them enjoyed it but didn't get passionate about it. But then there's that 10% or so, for whom sailing became an obsession. Some of these people have become serious racers, world cruisers, delivery captains etc. 

So ... in  my experience it's a numbers game. Want to create 10 new sailors? Take 100 newbies out on your boat!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sailing is declining worldwide for many reasons but down here the No1 reason is pretty obvious, its getting ridiculously expensive to own a boat. Peoples tastes have changed, everyone wants 3 cabins and 5 heads plus a dishwasher. In the heyday families were happy to "rough it" a bit, now not so much. The clubs are greying out as a general rule and the younger  sailors have a hard time transitioning from dinghies to keelboat ownership. Its not helped by expectation that boats should be nascar foilers. We used to have a rich and thriving boatbuilding/sailmaking industry which meant plenty of desire for members of it to own their own boats or be involved in the sport. Nowadays a new raceboat build or import is a major event, seriously! That is partly a political problem, govt policies mean you need two incomes to pay your way in the world

The solution is look after what you have, don't be an arsehole on the water to other boats and your crew, support your club with your time instead of expecting it all to fall on your plate. After that, carry on :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know for a fact that I am directly responsible for - not including my children or anything I did while on the board of a junior sailing program - at least one person who went from "I've never sailed before" to going out and buying his own keel boat. My uncle asked me to take him sailing since the guy expressed an interest in it, which I obliged. While on the boat we talked about boat ownership, buying your first boat, etc. He had no idea there was a huge market of relatively inexpensive used boats out there until we discussed it and I told him about my first boat and how I got it. Within a year or two he found a boat for under $10K and got on the water. Scared the piss out of my uncle and his non-sailing pals by heeling a lot when he took them out...

I've no idea how many newbie sailors I've taken out over the years, but I think the ratio of invites to acceptances is something like 5:1 or 10:1. Invitations are a lot less now that we live on board and cruise, as the invitee usually needs a passport and a plane ticket.

I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the sport and what it entails, and the expense involved. It's not cheap, but it CAN be relatively inexpensive. My 22 year old kid just bought a small keelboat not too long ago, a Capri 22. It didn't cost $100K, and he's doing the work himself and trying to keep it cheap. And he's getting out on the weeknights and the weekends.

 

But no, I don't invite new people out every week. I don't sail every week, this is my house we're talking about. I have to put shit away first.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

...     ...     ...     ...

I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the sport and what it entails, and the expense involved. It's not cheap, but it CAN be relatively inexpensive. My 22 year old kid just bought a small keelboat not too long ago, a Capri 22. It didn't cost $100K, and he's doing the work himself and trying to keep it cheap. And he's getting out on the weeknights and the weekends.

 

But no, I don't invite new people out every week. I don't sail every week, this is my house we're talking about. I have to put shit away first.

 

Not only that, those 4 Optis that I picked up from you..... how many years ago?? .... are still being sailed by eager kids.

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This UP sounds like an arsehole, I'm not taking him sailing either.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sailing is booming, sailboat racing on the other hand is not!

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a cast of thousands I have talked about sailing with over the years.

Sailing is an obsession, an addiction, the hook is set deep and fast, thousands romanticize sailing, one of them will join us.

They either get it or they don't.

It is cheaper now than it has ever been, walk down the dock, join a crew, commit, show up, just not for most people sadly.

Going the wrong way slowly has limited appeal apparently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I ask almost everyone I know, work with, or end up talking to each week and still struggle to find people that want to come sailing.  

For the most part the people I manage to get on the water end up there because they want to see the whales,  (were in Alaska, they all ask what we are going to fish for and are shocked I don't bring a pole) but have very little interest in any actual sailing of the boat ahead of time. 

A lot of people love it and talk to me constantly about how they'd love to go again, but they never seem willing to commit to sailing regularly.

Can't get my head around most of my friends preferring to run on a treadmill in a gym then drink beer on a sailboat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've trained 100s of sailor in my 36 years racing.  My longest serving mate, 25 years.  Next longest 10.  The rest...couple years tops.  Most couple months.  Few once or twice.  Seems like lots tire kickers, very few buyers.  Most successful new program Ive participated in is US Patriot Sailing.  This program for active and veterans is booming on both coast.  They get most everything donated by individuals and bizs, but do all the hard labor and organizing themselves.  Make sense, right.  Who better to organize and complete a mission than our military.  If the slacker civies I've entertained for decades had 1/5 the gumption, I'd be Dennis Conners by now.  Ok, maybe not.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had 12 out on the boat today. Wasn’t hard. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lots of growth in sailing

just not on 50 year old designs

go to any beach and look at the kites

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

You have invited people sailing, taught them a bit about how Sailboats work, helped those people find other rides, helped some find their own boats, and done some mentoring to enhance the new folks’ experience, 

I work (very) part-time as an instructor. Where I live, there must be a healthy interest in sailing as the courses offered by the schools I work for are typically fully subscribed months in advance.

Having self-selected by paying for the course and investing a week of their limited vacation time, students tend to be very highly motivated. I don’t recall ever having a student who didn’t enjoy themselves and want to continue with the sport/pastime. Occasionally one will find it all a bit overwhelming, but they typically decide to crew for others rather than skippering: which is sensible.

I don’t consider formal education to be necessary - we all know excellent sailors who hold no paper qualifications whatsoever - but I’m not surprised that few people who only have a couple of hours casual sailing with a friend or acquaintance decide to purchase their own boat. Once  a student has received several days of systematic instruction and practice, they will feel much more competent and confident.

16 hours ago, green03 said:

I get a sense, even those that are interested don't know how to fit sailing into their lives. (Those that do, already sail). Whether it's the time commitment, or managing the logistics of their own boat (doesn't matter whether it would be a keelboat or a dinghy on a trailer).

^^^^ This ^^^^

It can be rather intimidating for newbies to contemplate boat ownership: especially when most of the boats that they are likely to purchase are now third or fourth hand and >30 years old.

A yacht club can help this situation by maintaining an active crew list and (better) owning a small fleet of one design keelboats for members to rent at low cost. A sailing school should allow its graduates to hire the boats that they have been trained on. Such measures allow time for the hook to set without requiring a major financial or time commitment.

9 hours ago, Lowly Crew said:

It is cheaper now than it has ever been, walk down the dock, join a crew, commit, show up, just not for most people sadly.

See here.

13 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

think there are a lot of misconceptions about the sport and what it entails, and the expense involved. It's not cheap, but it CAN be relatively inexpensive. My 22 year old kid just bought a small keelboat not too long ago, a Capri 22. It didn't cost $100K, and he's doing the work himself and trying to keep it cheap. And he's getting out on the weeknights and the weekends.

+1. Unfortunately, moat sailing magazines focus on huge, luxurious, expensive yachts. No wonder people get the wrong impression!

FWIW, I consider the Capri 22 design to be perfect for casual daysailing and occasional weekend trips. A small and simple boat like that tends to get sailed a lot, while the >40 footers with three cabins etc. seldom leave the marina.

13 hours ago, toad said:

[L]ook after what you have, don't be an arsehole on the water to other boats and your crew, support your club with your time instead of expecting it all to fall on your plate.

All three are good suggestions.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, toad said:

Sailing is declining worldwide for many reasons but down here the No1 reason is pretty obvious, its getting ridiculously expensive to own a boat. Peoples tastes have changed, everyone wants 3 cabins and 5 heads plus a dishwasher. In the heyday families were happy to "rough it" a bit, now not so much. The clubs are greying out as a general rule and the younger  sailors have a hard time transitioning from dinghies to keelboat ownership.

 

16 hours ago, green03 said:

I get a sense, even those that are interested don't know how to fit sailing into their lives. (Those that do, already sail). Whether it's the time commitment, or managing the logistics of their own boat (doesn't matter whether it would be a keelboat or a dinghy on a trailer). Some end up trying a few things and then settling on a different passion.

"Fitting it into life" appears to be a big part of the issue. Most people I've taken sailing really enjoy the experience. We make sure to have good food and drink, we don't take much weather risk with guests, and my wife sees to it that I don't heel the boat too much with people who've never been sailing :rolleyes: .   It's just a big time commitment at a time when most people are spending less time outdoors and more time in 'virtual reality' mode. 

We sail the same boat in the same place we did 30 years ago, and we talk about this all the time:  While the local marinas are just about as full as they were in the late 80s, there are definitely fewer boats on the water on the weekends, and almost none out during the week. There are probably as many serious travelers coming by on the ICW as there were, but the daysailor and weekend crowd numbers are down, and that includes powerboaters.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, kdock44 said:

Can't get my head around most of my friends preferring to run on a treadmill in a gym

Why? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who the fuck cares if more or less people are into sailing?

I hear lectures at clubs, you tube videos and dumb ass posts like this that say we need to get more people into sailing?  Why?

Do what the fuck you want to do and who gives a shit what other people like to do.

  • Like 2
  • Downvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Troglodytarum said:

Who the fuck cares if more or less people are into sailing?

I hear lectures at clubs, you tube videos and dumb ass posts like this that say we need to get more people into sailing?  Why?

Do what the fuck you want to do and who gives a shit what other people like to do.

100% correct answer

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, lydia said:

Sailing is booming, sailboat racing on the other hand is not! 

Indeed. Because sailing is and always will be glorious but sailboat racing these is a hollow shell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I instruct  periodically at a DoD affiliate sailing club that puts a lot of people on the water in Capri 22's and gets them ASA 101/103 qualified (along with cat, bareboat charter, basic engine, basic nav, etc.) at bargain prices b/c we're non-profit.  They also do overnight and multi-day Bay and ocean sails teaching watchstanding,  weather tactics etc.  Probably half of the students go on to buy boats, become cruisers, etc.  A small percentage become racers. 

 I deal with the usual mayhem of race crew on Wednesdays and Weekends and put people on the water that way, including N00Bs from time to time, and regularly lose good developing sailors to jobs, pushy girlfriends who resent the boat time, family commitments, and sometimes to other boats that are way more competitive, or way less competitive.  It happens.  A lot of good sailors are in a diminishing pool of boomers / older Gen X'ers so I'm trying to focus on HS kids and recent college dinghy racers, largely as a survival tactic for my little race program.

With another skipper in the class, I started to do Friday two sail races in the local beercan series, to bring out NooBs and people who do lower level keelboat racing, to familiarize them with a more competitive program and more complicated, bigger boat.  Seems to be working, there are three or four people who seem to like this and with my kid's help, I'm going to drag a bunch of his high school buddies out this summer.  

As to  why it matters - if you don't have boat owners in large numbers, we will lose marinas and water access, except for bespoke clubs and waterfront condos, along with the yards that service our boats.  If you like racing, you need to try to bring along the next generation of crew, and encourage them to build up skills and buy in when the time is right.

You can take a "who cares what anybody else does, just do your own thing and don't bother anybody else" approach, and that's fine as long as you don't mind driving to a rural marina somewhere to take out your boat single handed.   Sailing of any type is a bit like sex; you can do it solo but it's generally more fun if somebody else is willing to play and it's more fun to live in a community where it's encouraged, rather than frowned upon.  Gotta have a lot of people doing it in order to have those conditions.  

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Lex Teredo said:

 I instruct  periodically at a DoD affiliate sailing club that puts a lot of people on the water in Capri 22's and gets them ASA 101/103 qualified (along with cat, bareboat charter, basic engine, basic nav, etc.) at bargain prices b/c we're non-profit.  They also do overnight and multi-day Bay and ocean sails teaching watchstanding,  weather tactics etc.  Probably half of the students go on to buy boats, become cruisers, etc.  A small percentage become racers. 

 I deal with the usual mayhem of race crew on Wednesdays and Weekends and put people on the water that way, including N00Bs from time to time, and regularly lose good developing sailors to jobs, pushy girlfriends who resent the boat time, family commitments, and sometimes to other boats that are way more competitive, or way less competitive.  It happens.  A lot of good sailors are in a diminishing pool of boomers / older Gen X'ers so I'm trying to focus on HS kids and recent college dinghy racers, largely as a survival tactic for my little race program.

With another skipper in the class, I started to do Friday two sail races in the local beercan series, to bring out NooBs and people who do lower level keelboat racing, to familiarize them with a more competitive program and more complicated, bigger boat.  Seems to be working, there are three or four people who seem to like this and with my kid's help, I'm going to drag a bunch of his high school buddies out this summer.  

As to  why it matters - if you don't have boat owners in large numbers, we will lose marinas and water access, except for bespoke clubs and waterfront condos, along with the yards that service our boats.  If you like racing, you need to try to bring along the next generation of crew, and encourage them to build up skills and buy in when the time is right.

You can take a "who cares what anybody else does, just do your own thing and don't bother anybody else" approach, and that's fine as long as you don't mind driving to a rural marina somewhere to take out your boat single handed.   Sailing of any type is a bit like sex; you can do it solo but it's generally more fun if somebody else is willing to play and it's more fun to live in a community where it's encouraged, rather than frowned upon.  Gotta have a lot of people doing it in order to have those conditions.  

If you think teaching kids to sail dingys is going to somehow affect marina viability (versus condo or whatever development) twenty years down the road, you are sorely mistaken.  

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not being a racer, I took a quick look at Melges 24s online (I want a small sport boat now!), as I’ve been really stoked following Team Educated Guess in the current R2AK (https://r2ak.com/2019-teams-full-race/team-educated-guess/ ).  They’re young, apparently really good sailors (they’re not that far behind the leaders), a good face for the sport. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

its an expensive (And getting worse) time consuming hobby. Incomes are stagnant, college debt has replaced home ownership debt (equity), cities are more apt to bulldoze a boat yard or marina and build condos than to issue permits for the former, etc.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have a hard time getting people to commit to even a once a weeknight beercan series.Time is at a premium, especially for young families. I think the transition over the last 30 years from more fully-crewed PHRF-boats to more smaller one-design sportboats has helped in that regard, but it still requires the time to get out every week.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Lex Teredo said:

As to  why it matters - if you don't have boat owners in large numbers, we will lose marinas and water access, except for bespoke clubs and waterfront condos, along with the yards that service our boats.  If you like racing, you need to try to bring along the next generation of crew, and encourage them to build up skills and buy in when the time is right.

You can take a "who cares what anybody else does, just do your own thing and don't bother anybody else" approach, and that's fine as long as you don't mind driving to a rural marina somewhere to take out your boat single handed.   Sailing of any type is a bit like sex; you can do it solo but it's generally more fun if somebody else is willing to play and it's more fun to live in a community where it's encouraged, rather than frowned upon.  Gotta have a lot of people doing it in order to have those conditions.

He's got it right. 

 

11 minutes ago, Troglodytarum said:

If you think teaching kids to sail dingys is going to somehow affect marina viability (versus condo or whatever development) twenty years down the road, you are sorely mistaken

I don't think you really believe this. Leaving the marina-vs-condo bit out and staying at the 40,000 ft level - there is no doubt that if today's kids don't spend time on the water, the industry will be deeply affected in 10 years.

I sail because I grew up sailing. My kids sail because they grew up sailing. It would be far-fetched to believe that many of us would have 'found' sailing in lieu of the fact that we were exposed to it as kids. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, bloodshot said:

Time is at a premium, especially for young families.

 

This isn't a false statement, as a parent I can confirm it is, but I find time for about 10 hours a week for my bike, including trainer time, but have little desire to put that effort into sailboat racing, which I've done since I was 5.

 

6 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

 

I sail because I grew up sailing. My kids sail because they grew up sailing. It would be far-fetched to believe that many of us would have 'found' sailing in lieu of the fact that we were exposed to it as kids. 

Indeed. But as mentioned upthread, sailing itself is doing fine. Sailboat racing is what is moribund.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, doghouse said:
35 minutes ago, bloodshot said:

Time is at a premium, especially for young families.

 

This isn't a false statement, as a parent I can confirm it is, but I find time for about 10 hours a week for my bike, including trainer time, but have little desire to put that effort into sailboat racing, which I've done since I was 5.     ...     ...     ...

 

Personally, I don't believe that sailing takes more time or money than other hobbies/avocations/pursuits, but it takes a longer term commitment than most and the time demand comes in big chucks. My other main hobby is music, which I can pick up for 15 minutes here and 15 minutes there. Sailing takes up several hours in a block, and little way to short-cut that.

The other thing is the prep and background work that sailing demands. Most people have little patience for anything remotely like this nowadays.

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, doghouse said:

 

This isn't a false statement, as a parent I can confirm it is, but I find time for about 10 hours a week for my bike, including trainer time, but have little desire to put that effort into sailboat racing, which I've done since I was 5.

 

Indeed. But as mentioned upthread, sailing itself is doing fine. Sailboat racing is what is moribund.

Well not so sure myself that non-racing sailing is doing fine (for reasons I mentioned upthread).

Life's funny - you are a sailing burnout, now shifted to cycling.  I'm burned out on cycling, shifting my interest back to sailing.

At 10+ hours per week, you are probably very competitive on the bike. Trouble is, that ceases to be fun at some point, and more like work.  Takes awhile, but it happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no problems getting people out sailing or flying as my guest.

In both cases, once they are aware of the time and money involved, they think I have lost my mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

everyone i have ever met absolutely hates sailing, thats just science.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's video games they are to blame for kids not wanting to sail

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Troglodytarum said:

Who the fuck cares if more or less people are into sailing?

I hear lectures at clubs, you tube videos and dumb ass posts like this that say we need to get more people into sailing?  Why?

Do what the fuck you want to do and who gives a shit what other people like to do.

Your response indicates a lack of interest in sailing in large fleets. 

Either that or you have some sort of intellectual disconnect between what you enjoy and what is necessary for your enjoyment to occur. 

 

Sailboat racing in large fleets is an entirely different game from small fleet sailing or simply riding around on a boat.

it is the difference between standing in a park lobbing the ball in the  air and whacking it with the bat, then walking over to pick it up and hit it again and having a game with nine players on each team and subs ready in the dugout. 

We can’t play large parts of our game without thirty  to 100 starters. 

Maybe you don’t like big fleet sailing. That’s fine with me. I don’t want ANYBODY to spend his spare time hating what he is doing.

bur

I simply love the entire experience during and surrounding a big fleet sailboat race. I understand the fact those races will not happen if guys like me quit making those events happen. 

 

For those if you who do love that 100 boat fleet’s Third weather leg, please do some of whatever it is you believe will help another such event happen. 

I hope i can find a way to be there!!! 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Israel Hands said:

Well not so sure myself that non-racing sailing is doing fine (for reasons I mentioned upthread). 

Life's funny - you are a sailing burnout, now shifted to cycling.  I'm burned out on cycling, shifting my interest back to sailing.

At 10+ hours per week, you are probably very competitive on the bike. Trouble is, that ceases to be fun at some point, and more like work.  Takes awhile, but it happens.

I don't see any pause in people just sailing around.

I've always cycled, that's nothing new. It's become my main activity instead of sailing is the change. I don't really race bikes either anymore, just enjoy riding. I still love to sail. And we are actually landing a brand new race boat in Norfolk as we speak. But there's about a 99% chance the next thing I do is a nice cruising boat. Keep it somewhere on the coast and live on the Italian/Swiss border where I can cycle the Alps everyday. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Troglodytarum said:

Who the fuck cares if more or less people are into sailing?

I hear lectures at clubs, you tube videos and dumb ass posts like this that say we need to get more people into sailing?  Why?

Do what the fuck you want to do and who gives a shit what other people like to do.

I hear people complaining about other people's 'dumb ass posts' all the time.  Who the fuck cares if someone wants to post something?  Why the fuck do you give a shit?

Write what you want to and who gives a shit what other people like to write.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Troglodytarum said:

If you think teaching kids to sail dingys is going to somehow affect marina viability (versus condo or whatever development) twenty years down the road, you are sorely mistaken.  

Dude, your reputation is -26, (that's NEGATIVE 26!) and you've only posted 300+ times.  Nearly 10% of the time you piss people off enough to make them want to take the time to hit a negative review on you.  That's impressive.  I'm not joking.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People should care if sailing is growing because:
ACCESS:   The more people that sail, the more people in positions of power and influence will sail and will give a shit if there is public water access, clubs, marinas and its supporting industry available.

COST OF GOODS:   This is just economics.   If more people sail, more people will be buying, cost of goods will go down.  Availability of goods and services will increase.  More choices.

JOBS:  If more people sail, there will be more businesses supporting the sailing industry, which creates more jobs, and allows large and small companies to grow. Which increases wealth and income for more people to afford to sail.

COMMUNITY:  The more people that sail, more opportunity for more people to try sailing, whether its through friends and family, or through community based programs (Community Boating in Boston on the Charles, for example), which in turn grows the sport.   At my marina I have met three boat owners who never sailed in their life until they joined Community Boating in Boston and loved it so much they went out and bought a small boat and upgraded to larger boats, and now have mid sized sailboats.   Seems like a testament to the success of that program.

FUN: Some people like to sail alone and be a hermit, but many people enjoy sailing together and go on sailing adventures in a fleet of boats for fun or for racing, all sailing to some fun destination together.  More people sailing will create more opportunities for fun and enjoyment such as this.  I love Club Cruises.

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Dude, your reputation is -26, (that's NEGATIVE 26!) and you've only posted 300+ times.  Nearly 10% of the time you piss people off enough to make them want to take the time to hit a negative review on you.  That's impressive.  I'm not joking.  

 

 

PA bro.  Not toeing the liberal agenda line has its cost around here.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

plenty of new folks to sailing.  Cost of launch? 0 . Cost to store? 0. Cost of kit? A few boat bucks less than a laser. Cost of the dolly? Ha! 

Crowded mark roundings? yep.

zujdjgbhlr9oecnup3sr.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"We the sailors" continuously shoot ourselves in the foot.  In a great portion, we have no one to blame than the person in the mirror.

The public believes (confirmed through research) that sailing is "expensive" so it isn't a consideration in their life to give it a go.  I see facebook posts all of the time, from sailing friends, IBNA, and other groups where they continuously post how expensive things are.

Have any of these people owned a home, or a car?  Put a new roof on, had a replacement transmission put in a car?  But the "image" of owning a home or a car does not carry the baggage that they are expensive.

What marketing is there to the general public?  None.  Zero.  Nada.

I am trying a new thing this year (to early for results), where a guy created "RailMeets.com" for the purpose of connecting Boats to Crew.  Boats could be racers, cruisers, daysailors, etc.  ANYONE can sign up on RailMeets.com regardless of experience or skills.  There are plenty of boat owners who will teach from the ground up, plenty.

STEP 1
So the boat owners get the communication from their yacht clubs about RailMeets.com  They can list their boat and what crew they need, OR, they can look at the list of available crew and contact them.

STEP 2 PART 1
Many clubs in the region have a "Crew School" in the spring, most charge for these weekly evening sessions.  The "graduation party" invites these students and the boat owners of the club.  The attempt is matchmaking of personality types.  And the graduates are introduced to RailMeets.com

STEP 2 PART 2
Again, the "reach" is still pretty small. How does the public learn about these crew schools other than a Facebook post or word of mouth?  How can we open sailing to the greater audience? Putting on my thinking cap, there are tons of websites listing "activities" available in any town. 

So I Googled "Things to do in 'Town Name.'"  Commonly the town has a website for things to do, there is a Facebook Group offering things to do, EventBrite, Craigslist has an Events section.  In Chicago there is Time Out Chicago, MetroMix, Choose Chicago that all list activities and things to do in town.  I posted on all of them (except those who want payment).  I am focused on two towns currently, Michigan City, IN and Chicago, IL providing a little blurb that sailing is free, and a link to RailMeets.com

As a side note, my organization LMSRF paid for a portal into RailMeets.com which has finally provided "one stop shopping" for all clubs, existing sailors and potential sailors.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Troglodytarum said:

PA bro.  Not toeing the liberal agenda line has its cost around here.

Wow.  I stay off PA.  Guess everyone really gets the panties bunched up over there.  What kills me, (politically speaking) is how people react to a different opinion like it's life or death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Wow.  I stay off PA.  Guess everyone really gets the panties bunched up over there.  What kills me, (politically speaking) is how people react to a different opinion like it's life or death.

Na, there's just a few sock puppet trolls that do their best for mother russia.  Trog posts from Czech with marching orders from the IRA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From what I've seen (and I don't read PA, but on the sailing threads), people get downvotes for the way they state things more often than the opinions they have

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Na, there's just a few sock puppet trolls that do their best for mother russia.  Trog posts from Czech with marching orders from the IRA

I'm not about to go digging around on that, but he obviously gets attention.  I've never seen a profile like that on SA before so he must be tearing it up! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Na, there's just a few sock puppet trolls that do their best for mother russia.  Trog posts from Czech with marching orders from the IRA

Get it right, buddy.  It's the Mossad.  Hired by Jared Kushner to troll sailing forums.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I'm not about to go digging around on that, but he obviously gets attention.  I've never seen a profile like that on SA before so he must be tearing it up! 

I actually own a boat too. Go figure.

  • Downvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Troglodytarum said:

I actually own a boat too. Go figure.

-28 now.  None from me.  I have no beef.  Go sailing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sailing, at least on the Chesapeake can be deadly boring in the summer.  I invited friends (a few days in advance cuz everyones busy), and occasionally we would hit that great day with 12-15 knots and just having a ball actually going places.  More likely fluky 5 knots barely pushing my 4ksb.  Sure we drank and talked and had fun but it was 5 knots in a 4ksb.   

People were happy to go but happier they didn't own a boat.   I ticked it off my list, learned to sail in 14, bought a boat in 15, beer canned it 16 and 17 and 18 and sold it.  It was fun, but I'm done.  glad I did it, i learned alot.  now I am happy to be crew 2-3 times a summer. 

but hey, at least I sold it some guy on ebay, who completely re-did the damn thing per below and that makes me happy.  

I have a habit of jack of all trades master of none.  Glad I can say I know how to sail and do it somewhat competently.   same with motorcycle racing, old car restoration, fly fishing, photography etc etc etc......  

ariel repain 2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Troglodytarum said:

Get it right, buddy.  It's the Mossad.  Hired by Jared Kushner to troll sailing forums.

Na, the mossad does it smarter.  you and your handlers are much cruder and less creative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Na, the mossad does it smarter.  you and your handlers are much cruder and less creative.

It would be interesting to have a tab in the Leaderboard that shows the posters with the most downvotes.

This would help the rest of us figure out who the trolls are.

There were posts earlier today on a sailing thread by somebody with a -300+ score...can't find him now for the life of me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Caferacer59 said:

Sailing, at least on the Chesapeake can be deadly boring in the summer.  I invited friends (a few days in advance cuz everyones busy), and occasionally we would hit that great day with 12-15 knots and just having a ball actually going places.  More likely fluky 5 knots barely pushing my 4ksb.  Sure we drank and talked and had fun but it was 5 knots in a 4ksb.   

People were happy to go but happier they didn't own a boat.   I ticked it off my list, learned to sail in 14, bought a boat in 15, beer canned it 16 and 17 and 18 and sold it.  It was fun, but I'm done.  glad I did it, i learned alot.  now I am happy to be crew 2-3 times a summer. 

but hey, at least I sold it some guy on ebay, who completely re-did the damn thing per below and that makes me happy.  

I have a habit of jack of all trades master of none.  Glad I can say I know how to sail and do it somewhat competently.   same with motorcycle racing, old car restoration, fly fishing, photography etc etc etc......  

ariel repain 2.jpg

Part of sailing is the aesthetics, part of it is the racing, cruising or whatever. I've been sailing on and off for over 40 years and there is still so much to learn and enjoy. The bratty macho testosterone shtick that plays out on this board sometimes is not representative of the sailing community as a whole, its only a small part. Racers don't own sailing, neither do cruisers and neither does the Americas cup!

Ultimately the success of sailing lies in its ability to provide enjoyment, after all its just a pastime that occasionally morphs into a lifestyle. No one really cares these days if you sail ROW alone unless you have one leg, a female, blind and are under 10 years old..... All the challenges have been done more or less in the public mind, sailing is old news, just like most owners.

I sail because I love it, wind and water don't give a shit- I have to respond to them and in that process I learn and grow a bit as a human.However I race twice a week because I am totally addicted :)

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Na, there's just a few sock puppet trolls that do their best for mother russia.  Trog posts from Czech with marching orders from the IRA

Trog is obviously a troll, but PA really has become a lefty circle jerk. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Today, while working on our S2, i watched a dozen 420’s crewed by people no older than 15, many much younger.  They all seemed to be having fun and quite a few could sail pretty good, considering the gusty winds and the lack of weight on the windward rail. 

Brenda and I often invite others to sail, and have had several that accepted. Taught others to sail that have gone on to long term sailing including purchasing boats far larger and more expensive than those we own.  We have been inviting others since we built our lake house in 1994.  

I would say sailing is not dying, but it is a sport that will never reach the levels of the mid to late 1800’s.  Bicycle racing will never fill Madison Square Garden but cyclists fill the streets and bike paths.  We average 60 or more cyclists each and every Monday on the Monroe, Louisiana group rides.  Water skiing is all but dead excepting for the very dedicated BUT try to find an affordable lot or home on a dedicated waterski lake.  And yes, there are plenty of dedicated waterskiing sites and the lakes.  

Notice a pattern.  Participation is up, but in sports that are perceived to be hard to learn, the general population has shied away.  They won’t come back.  Be glad for the people we have.  Be very thankful to see dozens of young people participating in active sports.  

Competition?  Folks just don’t want to lose.  The easiest way to avoid losing is to stay home.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Monkey said:

Trog is obviously a troll, but PA really has become a lefty circle jerk. 

How about fuck off back there or simply dont bring your politics here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Santana20AE said:

Competition?  Folks just don’t want to lose.  The easiest way to avoid losing is to stay home.  

Losing?

We "vigorously defend" last place (in a no-handicap beer-can).

Organized events force me to get my but in gear, deal with iffy forecasts (mostly to find that the on-the-water reality is much better than anticipated). Give me a firm date / set of dates to invite others.

Some people get the meditative part about being on the water, whether it's balancing the boat in brisk winds, or patiently "ghosting" towards the next puff. Some people just get stir crazy and feel trapped. Or, it has to be "about" something.

A bit of competition makes me sail better.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Santana20AE said:

 

Competition?  Folks just don’t want to lose.  The easiest way to avoid losing is to stay home.  

 

 

I race for social reasons.  I could give a shit to win a pickle dish.  I like those over night point to point ocean races that end up somewhere else and there is a nice party at the other end.  That and a t-shirt, and I am good to go!  :D

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Santana20AE said:

Competition?  Folks just don’t want to lose.  The easiest way to avoid losing is to stay home. 

Nope, some of us just don't care about racing and think people like you and your obsession with competition is a bit quaint. If it makes you happy, go for it. Just don't attribute to me any motives that you think I must have, it says more about you than me.

We were out in very light airs last weekend ghosting along with a bunch of dolphins for company. They kept turning upside down to rub their bellies on the rudder. Do you *really* think that fucking about on a start line trying to get there one poofteenth of a second faster than someone else actually *rates*???

Couple weeks ago we motored through the Sunday fleet sitting in a flat calm. They all went back to their marina berths and probably to the yacht club. We went south, stopped for a cup of coffee in one bay, drifted over to another for lunch and a bit of fishing then headed back to the mooring in the last light.

I'm a terrible sailor. Not bad at boat handling, that's a different thing, but a terrible sailor WRT sail trim etc. Racing would almost certainly improve my skills. But the bullshit simply isn't interesting and I don't care.

FKT

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

We were out in very light airs last weekend ghosting along with a bunch of dolphins for company. They kept turning upside down to rub their bellies on the rudder. Do you *really* think that fucking about on a start line trying to get there one poofteenth of a second faster than someone else actually *rates*???

Gotta say I'm with FKT on this one. I'll sail in the local informal races for the socializing, but mainly sailing is about freedom and adventure and the water.

Looking back it's logical I ended up with this attitude. Third child, and by the time I was old enough to sail, the older sibs had already burned out on the family small-boat racing (due mainly to the old man's 'need to win everything'). So we cruised as a family on the Chesapeake on a trad wooden schooner.  Good food, music, adventure, dolphins...what kid wouldn't love that?

Still the old man felt the need to compete against any other boat on the water. One time we had a nice breeze coming back down the Bay, and he worked for an hour to overtake a lone sailboat. We could see the all-male crew adjusting sail, working hard not to be passed. My dad climbed below and ordered us in too, leaving my 9-y-o little sis at the tiller as we went by.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It just came to me why sailing seems to be loosing some of its popularity.  The reason was posted on Facebook of all places.  Seems there is a builder who actually builds sailboats that are less than 60 feet in length and cost less than $1,000,000.00.  

Now i realize the market is glutted with used sailboats.  But affordability?  And costs of new boats has skyrocketed.  Builders claim they can make more money building one million dollar boat than 40 twenty-five thousand dollar boats.  I am not doubting thier word, but, what is the market for million dollar boats?  

My point, many on this site can certainly afford a nice cruiser or racing boat.  But not many of the general public want to spend the money it costs to get into sailing (at today’s costs) especially if they are not sure it is something they really want.

So here is the refreshing part of all this

https://venturasportboats.com/malbec-promo?fbclid=IwAR1feREKruk-SQ_jG9OSJznCH1Zx_We3c2hT3HCaU9eJgTJ_wyVFA7oDf_I

Small boats, easy to deal with and even a training package to go along. 

Remember, many of us really old timers grew up in sailing families.  We were aboard and learning how to sail before we started grade school.  My earliest memories is sailing on a C-Scow before the age of 5.  That would be about 65 years ago.  

Now, there is no legacy of sailing in families outside of our tightly knit sailing community.  

You can’t start people sailing when they can’t afford a million dollar boat, or a quarter million dollar boat, or even a twentieth million dollar boat 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, green03 said:

Losing?

We "vigorously defend" last place (in a no-handicap beer-can).

 

Ah, going for the Red Lantern award.  I too vigorously defend last place in most bicycling time trials.  For a long time I bragged at being the Slowest Licensed Bicycle Racer in the World

Then i changed my training regimen and I can’’t even claim that anymore  (I even won my first USAC medal at the Louisiana Mississippi Time Trial Championships)

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First let's all agree that the sport is not dying. It is however going through a transition. Anyone notice kiteboarding rules in the RRS lately?

When I was growing up in the sport there were two basic types of sailing, small boat one design and big boats handicap. Neither of which cost what they cost now. Due to affordability, those that do want to sail and sail competitively are shifting to small boat one design, or other types of sailing that are a bit more reasonable on the wallet such as wind surfing, kite boarding, etc... So just to clarify it is really the handicap fleets that are dying.

As stated earlier in this thread, cruising is also thriving. Just look at the number of young couples with YouTube blogs about their blue water and liveaboard adventures. YouTube is literally inundated with them. This will become even more so as the younger generations coming up have really grabbed ahold of the idea of "tiny" living.

Now regarding inviting new people out to sailboat race.

Our boat is an old 80's era MORC racer/cruiser. There is no way around it, it takes 7 people and sometimes 8 or 9 in a breeze to get the boat around the race course competitively. Until really the last year, we have suffered from being severely short handed. As a result a lot of people have been invited on to our boat over the last 7 years until we finally started to see the right mix of experienced sailors and newbies stick. I think I can mention a few takeaways from this experience.

1. NO ONE wants to go out and sail with an ASSHOLE. If you are the type that thinks shouting and yelling is productive, you're just never going to be able to get new people on the boat long enough to develop them.

2. I try really hard not to make the first sailing experience for non-sailors a race. First reason for this is that I want to be able to teach things to them, and a race does not afford proper time for that. The other reason being that once they do make it out for a race, I want them participating in some level on the boat and not just sitting on the rail feeling homeless.

3. You have to take newbie sailors with a grain of salt. Some want to try it and decide they don't like it, only to go out and buy a pontoon boat the following week. Others try it, but decide they would rather just day sail or cruise. It takes a unique type to go out on a race and get hooked. I would say my own personal success rate is maybe 1 in 50 at best?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Santana20AE said:

 

Ah, going for the Red Lantern award.  I too vigorously defend last place in most bicycling time trials.  For a long time I bragged at being the Slowest Licensed Bicycle Racer in the World

Then i changed my training regimen and I can’’t even claim that anymore  (I even won my first USAC medal at the Louisiana Mississippi Time Trial Championships)

 

Mind you, this is in a "no-handicap" event; I'm definitely sailing better than I used to, but our only chance to place is on nights certain fast boats don't show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jubblies said:

It takes a unique type to go out on a race and get hooked. I would say my own personal success rate is maybe 1 in 50 at best?

Seems about right.

In terms of cruising: there are also small-boat distance events (not all of them are races, like in Florida or Alaska). Texas200, Salish100 and so on. Many of them attract people who build their own, or modify production boats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/10/2019 at 11:08 AM, Steam Flyer said:

 

Personally, I don't believe that sailing takes more time or money than other hobbies/avocations/pursuits, but it takes a longer term commitment than most and the time demand comes in big chucks. My other main hobby is music, which I can pick up for 15 minutes here and 15 minutes there. Sailing takes up several hours in a block, and little way to short-cut that.

The other thing is the prep and background work that sailing demands. Most people have little patience for anything remotely like this nowadays.

FB- Doug

it takes way longer. I can go rock climbing or biking for a few hours and still have the rest of my day to take care of chores or go to a bbq, etc. Can't really do that with racing, its all weekend. Now, the fact that I choose to do the racing I do makes an even bigger hit on my free time,  but I think a lot of this thread is alluding to similar racing as me rather than a wednesday night race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I took someone sailing for the first time this weekend and it was a disaster.

Day 1 of a 2 day event, we were sitting at the bar thinking "We could really use an extra person tomorrow". I call up a friend, another crew member calls up a friend, and in the morning we have 2 more people and a weight limit.

My friend goes sailing on another boat instead and gets shouted at for 2 hours by some dumb prick who thinks they know how to sail. 

I think he's going to stick to his kite for a while. Maybe (maybe) I'll get one chance to bring him on a distance race.

I feel really bad about it (I was really looking foward to having someone to help with the muscly stuff), and I essentially invited someone to a party then dumped him with the lame kids. 

Two takeaways:

1. A person's first sail is really really important. They have to have a good time or they won't come back.

2. If you can't find crew for your boat, maybe its your existing crew (or yourself).

If you want people to come sail and have a good time: Take them on practice sails. Dedicate one day a week/2 a month to go out and just practice. I guarantee you need it anyways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a younger (under 30) keelboat owner I'd say I agree with many of the points discussed here. It's hard for us millenials to afford the time and $ it takes to own a boat which then gets compounded it you want to race. I was only able to do it by finding a co-owner crazy enough to want to buy a boat and to help with the costs and maintenance part of owning the boat.  Finding crew is usually not that hard, it's just tough to find the time to find crew, train them, and then keep them interested long enough to get them racing.

But all of this is the normal stuff for owning the boat that I expected getting into it and to me is part of the fun. I think part of it is that there's still quite a few people running these yacht clubs with the elitist sailing mentality and outdated approach to handling the sport.  Many don't want new people in their exclusive club and make it known to those newcomers through their attitudes on and off of the water. 

Then you get into bringing in new comers to the sport. I think YC's have the power to really grow the sport if they would target the right people. It seems to me that most YC's emphasize a lot on training the young kids to sail and to keep the older generations out on the water, but there's not much being done to get those younger professionals recently out of college whom haven't been exposed to sailing into the sport. Crewing on a race boat is great way to learn, but few skippers would allow such a person to drive their boat on any given day, or, at least, not enough to really get hooked on the sport. They could take a class, but those are few and far between in many places and cost quite a bit of $ especially for someone who isn't sure if they're going to like it or not.  I think people need tiller time on a boat to really get hooked on the sport and I don't think many of us (especially us racers) are giving people that time. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, luismanuel22 said:

As a younger (under 30) keelboat owner I'd say I agree with many of the points discussed here. It's hard for us millenials to afford the time and $ it takes to own a boat which then gets compounded it you want to race. I was only able to do it by finding a co-owner crazy enough to want to buy a boat and to help with the costs and maintenance part of owning the boat.  Finding crew is usually not that hard, it's just tough to find the time to find crew, train them, and then keep them interested long enough to get them racing.

But all of this is the normal stuff for owning the boat that I expected getting into it and to me is part of the fun. I think part of it is that there's still quite a few people running these yacht clubs with the elitist sailing mentality and outdated approach to handling the sport.  Many don't want new people in their exclusive club and make it known to those newcomers through their attitudes on and off of the water. 

Then you get into bringing in new comers to the sport. I think YC's have the power to really grow the sport if they would target the right people. It seems to me that most YC's emphasize a lot on training the young kids to sail and to keep the older generations out on the water, but there's not much being done to get those younger professionals recently out of college whom haven't been exposed to sailing into the sport. Crewing on a race boat is great way to learn, but few skippers would allow such a person to drive their boat on any given day, or, at least, not enough to really get hooked on the sport. They could take a class, but those are few and far between in many places and cost quite a bit of $ especially for someone who isn't sure if they're going to like it or not.  I think people need tiller time on a boat to really get hooked on the sport and I don't think many of us (especially us racers) are giving people that time. 

I agree with this.   I think one approach would be the singles thing where people can meet up for sailing and socialize.  Meet new people.  If you target the ladies, the gents are sure to follow.  :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, luismanuel22 said:

As a younger (under 30) keelboat owner I'd say I agree with many of the points discussed here. It's hard for us millenials to afford the time and $ it takes to own a boat which then gets compounded it you want to race. I was only able to do it by finding a co-owner crazy enough to want to buy a boat and to help with the costs and maintenance part of owning the boat.  Finding crew is usually not that hard, it's just tough to find the time to find crew, train them, and then keep them interested long enough to get them racing.

But all of this is the normal stuff for owning the boat that I expected getting into it and to me is part of the fun. I think part of it is that there's still quite a few people running these yacht clubs with the elitist sailing mentality and outdated approach to handling the sport.  Many don't want new people in their exclusive club and make it known to those newcomers through their attitudes on and off of the water. 

Then you get into bringing in new comers to the sport. I think YC's have the power to really grow the sport if they would target the right people. It seems to me that most YC's emphasize a lot on training the young kids to sail and to keep the older generations out on the water, but there's not much being done to get those younger professionals recently out of college whom haven't been exposed to sailing into the sport. Crewing on a race boat is great way to learn, but few skippers would allow such a person to drive their boat on any given day, or, at least, not enough to really get hooked on the sport. They could take a class, but those are few and far between in many places and cost quite a bit of $ especially for someone who isn't sure if they're going to like it or not.  I think people need tiller time on a boat to really get hooked on the sport and I don't think many of us (especially us racers) are giving people that time. 

Well, 

The problem has been around for ages, even going back to when I was a 20 something with a keelboat fishing for crew.  :)  The biggest problem with your scenario is that hardly anyone is going to drop the $$ on a boat and not drive, at least not in the wed night beer can club where most get their start.  Until you reach rockstar status, you will be relegated to wherever you fit in any given program so the newbies should be shown the ropes(all of them) and encouraged to learn nav, tactics, sail trim etc to get them more involved than basic rail meat.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two issues I think we can all agree on

NEVER EVER take a new sailor out for his first sail in a race.

Cussing and screaming at your crew is a VERY good way to loose the crew.  After all, Wednesday Night Beer Can races are Not the America’s Cup.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, luismanuel22 said:

As a younger (under 30) keelboat owner I'd say I agree with many of the points discussed here. It's hard for us millenials to afford the time and $ it takes to own a boat which then gets compounded it you want to race. I was only able to do it by finding a co-owner crazy enough to want to buy a boat and to help with the costs and maintenance part of owning the boat.  Finding crew is usually not that hard, it's just tough to find the time to find crew, train them, and then keep them interested long enough to get them racing.

But all of this is the normal stuff for owning the boat that I expected getting into it and to me is part of the fun. I think part of it is that there's still quite a few people running these yacht clubs with the elitist sailing mentality and outdated approach to handling the sport.  Many don't want new people in their exclusive club and make it known to those newcomers through their attitudes on and off of the water. 

Then you get into bringing in new comers to the sport. I think YC's have the power to really grow the sport if they would target the right people. It seems to me that most YC's emphasize a lot on training the young kids to sail and to keep the older generations out on the water, but there's not much being done to get those younger professionals recently out of college whom haven't been exposed to sailing into the sport. Crewing on a race boat is great way to learn, but few skippers would allow such a person to drive their boat on any given day, or, at least, not enough to really get hooked on the sport. They could take a class, but those are few and far between in many places and cost quite a bit of $ especially for someone who isn't sure if they're going to like it or not.  I think people need tiller time on a boat to really get hooked on the sport and I don't think many of us (especially us racers) are giving people that time. 

What you are really talking about are community sailing centers, not yacht clubs. Clubs are, by their nature, exclusive while community centers are inclusive of anyone who wants to try the sport out. I think they are really the future for growing the sport by giving more people access to the water. Yacht clubs often are glorified dining clubs that promote sailing in order to fill the bar and the dining room. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/9/2019 at 2:09 PM, doghouse said:

Sailing has been a regular part of my life for 30 years, and at age 40 I'm almost on my way out.

 

 

I got ya, I'm flat fed up with asking people to go and hearing "I'd love to sail/race with you" then when push comes to shove, they are busy but in other races they show up on other boats.

I've been volunteering lately but I'm about done with that. This is my 4th year with PHRF and almost as many doing scoring for our club. Been rewriting our NOR and SI to follow the WS/USS bullet list and not be so wordy.

25 years of racing before my accident, then try doing the over priced Paralympic BS and then get my Zap up to snuff and no one wants to do the longer RLC races.

It's a boat and requires up keep so I stay busy.

At 61 with an SCI, I'm pretty much done. I have vultures circling, waiting for me to give up so they can have a boat for pennies. Pathetic really considering everything is almost new now that I have done so much work. Sailing used to be great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m going in as a work partner on an Ensign with a silver medalist Paralympic sailor named Rick who’s going to take out kids and teach them to sail. He’s very outgoing and raced in the Region 3 Regionals last week. His enthusiasm inspires people to be around him and he needs someone like me to knock out the boat problems and get his crew and he out racing. 

Me? I’m going to be taking out all kinds of people to introduce them to Sailing since I have a posh wooden yacht. It looks fancy and attracts people. We’ll go out and watch the BBYRA on Saturdays and during the week I can take out youth sailors for training and people with disabilities for pleasure.  The boat will be nice to ride on and maybe inspire some of them to commit to a life of sailing like we all have. 

You’re a lucky person to have had many years of sailboat racing under your belt and I bet you might be sailing salt flat boats for a while.:)

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Rum Runner said:

What you are really talking about are community sailing centers, not yacht clubs. Clubs are, by their nature, exclusive while community centers are inclusive of anyone who wants to try the sport out. I think they are really the future for growing the sport by giving more people access to the water. Yacht clubs often are glorified dining clubs that promote sailing in order to fill the bar and the dining room. 

We have both in Utah.  The Park City Sailing Association does an awesome job getting people sailing. Their goal is to build a culture of sailing in Utah.  But they've been at it for 10 years. It takes time.  I've owned my boat for 3 years and have taken about 10 non sailors out sailing.  Some said it was the best time they've had outside l, and these were outdoorsy types.  But sailing is...hard.  its expensive.  And in Utah, slip space is at a premium and a dry year or 2 can wreak havoc on water levels.  I agree with others here that it's a numbers game.  Keep taking people sailing.  Keep being cool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Santana20AE said:

Two issues I think we can all agree on

NEVER EVER take a new sailor out for his first sail in a race.

Cussing and screaming at your crew is a VERY good way to loose the crew.  After all, Wednesday Night Beer Can races are Not the America’s Cup.  

May I disagree. In my case my first time ever on a sailboat (I was a long time powerboater and boats were vehicles used to go and kill fish) and got asked by the guy who had the office next to mine to join him on a Wed night race.  He needed crew/bodies.  I knew absolutely nothing about sailing.  The start was fascinating.  Scary as hell, but fascinating.  

Top mark and another racer is outside us.  Guy who owns the boat is doing the “inside overlap, room at the mark” thing.  Of course I had no idea what any of this meant.  Guy on the other boat (a state legislator as it turned out) responds with “how much effin room do you want?.  My estimate was that I could have stepped from one boat to the other we were so close.

After a few adult beverages at the local yacht club I went home and told my wife thst we were buying a sailboat and going racing.  Never had so much fun at 5 mph.  At that point we were in final negotiations to buy a 25’ center console fishing machine.  Instead we bought a used 3 knot shitbox and 3 years after that bought a brand new 30’ stripped out racer.  Sailed it for 15 years.  Both of my kids grew up sailing and racing.  Younger son (now in his 40s) has literally sailed over a reasonable amount of the world.  His passport looks like he works for the State Department.

I fully admit that my situation may be the outlier and atypical.

 

 

 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Santana20AE said:

Two issues I think we can all agree on

NEVER EVER take a new sailor out for his first sail in a race.

Cussing and screaming at your crew is a VERY good way to loose the crew.  After all, Wednesday Night Beer Can races are Not the America’s Cup.  

??? Why not take a newbie out for a race?

As for cussing and screaming at your crew, yeah that is dumb and also rude. I have a very low tolerance for being cussed at myself, and only do it to other people when they not only firmly deserve it but have doubled down on their efforts. When a skipper resorts to screaming and cussing, it is because he is not a good sailor and not a good leader.

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Santana20AE said:

Two issues I think we can all agree on

NEVER EVER take a new sailor out for his first sail in a race.

Cussing and screaming at your crew is a VERY good way to loose the crew.  After all, Wednesday Night Beer Can races are Not the America’s Cup.  

The introduction to sailing in a race is fabulous on a J-24 in the #2 of five position or even on the winches if the skipper is somebody who just loves to help somebody learn and have fun. 

Last year I did an entire series in the local Pearson  26 fleet with ZERO crew members who had ever previously raced and a few who were out fir their first ride.. Each weeK my previous week’s  newbies were “graduated” to s new boat. 

We were awful. We only won some of the races. We had tons of giggle fits. Nobody got hurt. We didn’t hit anybody. In fact, we didn’t foul anybody.

There were a whole lot of “Folks? We are going to let those guys go by while we sort this out.”

i am certain i  told everybody every week, “Everybody else out here has done this before. Some of us started as kids in sailing camps that were like Little League baseball. Most of these  people are successful in their careers and were at top of their classes way back when they were school kids. It will take years to beat any of them and, the way I see it, if we are even close, we are winning. I also don’t care if we win. It would be pretty cool but it is far more important we all have a good time. I want you to make some friends today and come back to see them. The sailboat Racing part might turn you on or off.”

and

My first sailboat ride was a race in a 32 boat fleet of Optimist Prams. That was in 1958. It must have worked. . 

Cussing at the crew?? The skipper damn sure better be smiling and laughing as he does it and it better come in a form  like, “Only a twisted fucker like you would sail with me.”

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

May I disagree. In my case my first time ever on a sailboat (I was a long time powerboater and boats were vehicles used to go and kill fish) and got asked by the guy who had the office next to mine to join him on a Wed night race.  He needed crew/bodies.  I knew absolutely nothing about sailing.  The start was fascinating.  Scary as hell, but fascinating.  

Top mark and another racer is outside us.  Guy who owns the boat is doing the “inside overlap, room at the mark” thing.  Of course I had no idea what any of this meant.  Guy on the other boat (a state legislator as it turned out) responds with “how much effin room do you want?.  My estimate was that I could have stepped from one boat to the other we were so close.

After a few adult beverages at the local yacht club I went home and told my wife thst we were buying a sailboat and going racing.  Never had so much fun at 5 mph.  At that point we were in final negotiations to buy a 25’ center console fishing machine.  Instead we bought a used 3 knot shitbox and 3 years after that bought a brand new 30’ stripped out racer.  Sailed it for 15 years.  Both of my kids grew up sailing and racing.  Younger son (now in his 40s) has literally sailed over a reasonable amount of the world.  His passport looks like he works for the State Department.

I fully admit that my situation may be the outlier and atypical.

 

 

 

I feel like it is not an outlier/atypical...

I regularly take new people sailing for the first time in races, you just have to behave yourselves, you cant yell and scream at a beginner when they don't know what to do, but we took a friend out (experienced power-boater, but first time sailor) in two state championships races, and he was hooked from that minute, he was in awe of what we were doing and yet we were doing 6.75 knots up and 8-10 knots down and he has a powerboat which pushes close to the 50 knot range.

Since then he has raced HEAPS, and learned a lot, and now wants to buy a boat and cruise Australia - SE Asia.

My introduction to sailing was at 5 years old, offshore club racing in a 25' trailer sailor in rough weather off Freo, and I have been hooked since. You better believe in 25 knots of breeze that my dad pulled the kite up on that boat and broached the fuck out of it. There was an intensity to it which fucking captivated me (did totally scare the fuck out of kid me though hahaha).

Today things are different for 90% of people. You can have more "fun" than ever with less effort than ever. It used to be much easier to get people out on the water when you didn't have high quality video games, endless and accessible TV and movies etc. It's just that more and more people choose the lazy option, and don't go sailing as much, and sit around home and watch TV or game. I'm still blown away when I come home from an epic day of wakeboarding/surfing/spearfishing/racing/cruising and my housemate has spent that time playing a simple video game...

Because of that, cruising has died less than racing, because it requires less effort. Both still have lower number of participation than 30 years ago when compared with the fact our population has doubled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Santana20AE said:

 

Cussing and screaming at your crew is a VERY good way to loose the crew.  After all, Wednesday Night Beer Can races are Not the America’s Cup.  

If you were doing that in any of our races (and any other club I've belonged to) you would be disqualified under,

69.1 Obligation not to Commit Misconduct; Resolution

(a) A competitor, boat owner or support person shall not commit an act of misconduct. 

(b) Misconduct is: 

(1) conduct that is a breach of good manners, a breach of good sportsmanship, or unethical behaviour;

or

(2)  conduct that may bring the sport into disrepute

(c) An allegation of a breach of rule 69.1(a)

shall be resolved in accordance with the provisions of rule 69.

It shall not be grounds for a protest and rule 63.1 does not apply.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 If they were enforced, there would be way fewer sailors on the water. I don’t curse or yell at my crew. I care too much about them having fun while finishing anywhere from first to last.

That said, I grew up on a boat with a screaming, cursing captain and spent many years hearing people’s rage on the water. It’s part of the Catharsis theory of play. The stress you let out in competitive sport activities relieves work stress.

I just never needed to relieve myself on the crew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites