Editor

truth to power?

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This comes from a pretty trusted source...

The Shock 40 Angry Beaver (R2AK) had a fuel cell on board to "charge the batteries". Included in  this was canting the keel via an electric pump.  If the reports are correct, they were able to cant the keel back and forth and generate forward motion Sounds like with the main up they could generate 'mo just like rocking a Laser. The power to cant the keel came from the fuel cell.

I doubt the race organizers understood how this system works and that by allowing it they've made their event look pretty much like a powered event.

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DSQ...if true.  

 

But they accepted his entry. 

Intent, not if he disclosed it.  

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If true maybe they should be penalized with a one-turn penalty......all the way around Vancouver Island.  Any lady or gentleman (or my 10 year old) would know that a fuel cell moving a blade in the water is cheating, disclosed or not. 

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+1

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What do the other teams use to generate electricity?

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Fuel cell is a battery...

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I very much doubt the gearing that would allow a battery to move the keel is such that they could fan the keel for forward progress.  I'm with Amati, just make it all manual and they have a year to modify things.  I don't believe they exploited this capability and furthermore, don't believe it would have helped.  

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7 hours ago, Editor said:

This comes from a pretty trusted source... 

 

Well, If it comes from a pretty trusted source, that makes all the difference.   

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3 hours ago, JL92S said:

What do the other teams use to generate electricity?

PV panels.

My own view is that the only permitted motorised device for R2AK should be autopilots. Permitting motorised keels was wrong and I am sure that will be sorted for the next edition of the race. Manually operated canting keels are OK.

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8 hours ago, Editor said:

This comes from a pretty trusted source...

The Shock 40 Angry Beaver (R2AK) had a fuel cell on board to "charge the batteries". Included in  this was canting the keel via an electric pump.  If the reports are correct, they were able to cant the keel back and forth and generate forward motion Sounds like with the main up they could generate 'mo just like rocking a Laser. The power to cant the keel came from the fuel cell.

I doubt the race organizers understood how this system works and that by allowing it they've made their event look pretty much like a powered event.

You seriously think they air rowed a Shock 40?  Really???  :wacko:

They earned a well deserved win and you post this crap.  No shame....

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^^^

THIS

A fuel cell big enough to power a large hydraulic pump that could move a keel fast enough to scull a 40 foot boat more than about 100 feet would be gigantic and cost more than all the boats in the race combined and then some.

Is there even a *hint* that they tried to scull their way to Alaska???

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4 hours ago, Teaky said:

Fuel cell is a battery...

No it isn't. It is more like a generator with no moving parts, there is no way to charge one but you can just add more fuel when it runs out. Spacecraft use them in part because the exhaust is water you can drink and they already have hydrogen and oxygen aboard for fuel.

"Fuels cells in the Apollo spacecraft provided most of the water for astronauts' needs. Fuel cells create electricity by combining hydrogen and oxygen, producing water as a byproduct of this process. A portion of the water supply was chilled for drinking"

1200px-Solid_oxide_fuel_cell.svg.png

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Ed, if you believe you can cant a keel back and forth fast enough to scull a 40fter you are even dumber than I previously thought. 

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8 hours ago, Editor said:

This comes from a pretty trusted source...

The Shock 40 Angry Beaver (R2AK) had a fuel cell on board

It's Schock, so much for the industry professional facade.  

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50 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Ed trying to get hits.  

I think he is hoping for a 40 page thread much like the Sydney to Hobat AIS drama.

If he had sailed on a canter he would realize what he wrote is silly. I sailed on the Merlin with its swing keel, you could cant the rig to leeward to get some draft in the sails in light air. That helped a bit, the Beavers probably did the same in the light air. Pear Shaped could perhaps do the same thing with its canting rig.

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18 minutes ago, heavym210 said:

I think he is hoping for a 40 page thread much like the Sydney to Hobat AIS drama.

If he had sailed on a canter he would realize what he wrote is silly. I sailed on the Merlin with its swing keel, you could cant the rig to leeward to get some draft in the sails in light air. That helped a bit, the Beavers probably did the same in the light air. Pear Shaped could perhaps do the same thing with its canting rig.

Wasn't that the same guy who owned the most perfect boat in the world?  The owner of Merlin at the time.

 

Edit:  Bacchant?

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This seems like a really inefficient way to cheat. 

I can't imagine that the electric system cants the keel very quickly, and how many times can you cant the keel before you run out of juice? 20? 50?  

I agree with other posters that canting the keel should be manual - in multihulls, you have to cant your mast manually. If electric was permitted for the race, though, I don't see the problem.

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There's a fine line between telling truth to power and being a dumbass.

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I hate this.  Unless they lied on their entrance documentation, they sailed by the rules.  The Ed, when faced with his only competition, lost to Snapper.  The Ed sees the hits/income going down and is being desperate.  The Beavers sailed the course and I very much doubt extra movement of their keel was not part of it.  Again, someone said something stupid after 6 days of no sleep, go figure.  

 

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1 hour ago, Cal20sailor said:

Ed trying to get hits.  

muckraking

it's the status quo with websites

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34 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Wasn't that the same guy who owned the most perfect boat in the world?  The owner of Merlin at the time.

 

Edit:  Bacchant?

Yep, Jere Sulivan. He passed away a few years ago. 

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The rules were clear.  The winners read them and found a loophole, intentional or otherwise.  Good for them.  A hydrogen fuel cell is not powered by a “fossil fuel”.  It is powered by a “solar” fuel.

"● Every team must have a vessel without a motor. No motors onboard,

at all, even if they’re not hooked up, disabled, etc. This includes motors

and engines of any fuel type—and that includes fossil-fuel-powered

generators. Human and wind power only for propulsion. Solar, wind, and

human power are okay for charging things—and no, not for charging a

battery that powers propulsion of any kind. Bilge pumps are okay, unless

it’s really big and pointed aft (see Rule 8)."

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6 minutes ago, timmytwinstay said:

The rules were clear.  The winners read them and found a loophole, intentional or otherwise.  Good for them.  A hydrogen fuel cell is not powered by a “fossil fuel”.  It is powered by a “solar” fuel.

"● Every team must have a vessel without a motor. No motors onboard,

at all, even if they’re not hooked up, disabled, etc. This includes motors

and engines of any fuel type—and that includes fossil-fuel-powered

generators. Human and wind power only for propulsion. Solar, wind, and

human power are okay for charging things—and no, not for charging a

battery that powers propulsion of any kind. Bilge pumps are okay, unless

it’s really big and pointed aft (see Rule 8)."

Except the Beave used a methanol fuel cell, an Efoy one

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The Angry Beavers won not because of their canting keel, but because they have a great crew and a great boat, and by far the best team name for sailing fast in log-infested waters - I bet the logs parted before them when they heard a fast Angry Beaver was on its way.

Team Pear Shaped Racing on the other hand, well they had a great crew and a great boat, but I think they simply picked the wrong team name - I mean if I were a log I certainly know who I would choose to attack.

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Yellow journalism and the yellow press are American terms for journalism and associated newspapers that present little or no legitimate well-researched news while instead using eye-catching headlines for increased sales.[1] Techniques may include exaggerations of news events, scandal-mongering, or sensationalism. By extension, the term yellow journalism is used today as a pejorative to decry any journalism that treats news in an unprofessional or unethical fashion.[2]

In English, the term is chiefly used in the US. In the UK, a roughly equivalent term is tabloid journalism, meaning journalism characteristic of tabloid newspapers, even if found elsewhere. Other languages, e.g. Russian (Жёлтая пресса), sometimes have terms derived from the American term. A common source of such writing is called checkbook journalism, which is the controversial practice of news reporters paying sources for their information without verifying its truth or accuracy. In the U.S. it is generally considered unethical, with most mainstream newspapers and news shows having a policy forbidding it. In contrast, tabloid newspapers and tabloid television shows, which rely more on sensationalism, regularly engage in the practice.[3]

 

25-town-crier.w710.h473.2x.jpg

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28 minutes ago, sinker said:

Except the Beave used a methanol fuel cell, an Efoy one

You have a point, however; Methane can come from fossil and non-fossil sources.  Fossil sources include all sorts if decaying plant matter, which slowly thermally decompose at high temperatures.  Non-fossil sources include carbon and hydrogen from the mantle and from nuclear decay.

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1 hour ago, heavym210 said:

Yep, Jere Sulivan. He passed away a few years ago. 

Sad, walking past that boat was like walking past a museum or a shrine.

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Team Shut up and drive may or may not have had a fuel cell as well.

" We tested the fuel cell which is really the back up of backups for us when we go offshore as it is really designed for a boat like Elise and not a boat like the Figaro with Skipper 2.0 capabilities. Still, it pumps out about 3 amps and can take care of maintaining charged the basic safety equipment such as a VHF and navigation lights - as well as sporadic use of a GPS for navigation purposes if need be. "

https://envoleeadventures.blogspot.com/search?q=fuel+cell

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The spirit of the rules were violated IMHO. The rule says Motor of any type.  A hydraulic pump needs an electric motor. Or when did an electric motor stop being a motor.

"Motors and engines of ANY fuel type"    "a vessel without a motor"

1 hour ago, timmytwinstay said:

"● Every team must have a vessel without a motor. No motors onboard,

at all, even if they’re not hooked up, disabled, etc. This includes motors

and engines of any fuel type—and that includes fossil-fuel-powered

generators. Human and wind power only for propulsion. Solar, wind, and

human power are okay for charging things—and no, not for charging a

battery that powers propulsion of any kind. Bilge pumps are okay, unless

it’s really big and pointed aft (see Rule 8)."

 

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14 minutes ago, timber said:

The spirit of the rules were violated IMHO. The rule says Motor of any type.  A hydraulic pump needs an electric motor. Or when did an electric motor stop being a motor.

"Motors and engines of ANY fuel type"    "a vessel without a motor"

 

That is a peculiar way to read the rule, which is obviously focused on propulsion. 

If you're going to interpret "motor" as to mean literally every kind of motor, then a quartz watch movement would be banned under the rule. No fans for ventilation either. 

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18 minutes ago, timber said:

The spirit of the rules were violated IMHO. The rule says Motor of any type.  A hydraulic pump needs an electric motor. Or when did an electric motor stop being a motor.

"Motors and engines of ANY fuel type"    "a vessel without a motor"

 

Bullshit. The spirit of the rules clearly means propulsion. A fuel cell that puts out barely enough to keep your batteries topped up and not connected to anything that can propel the boat, even indirectly, doesn't violate the spirit of the rules and more than a bilge pump outlet directed abaft of the beam violates the spirit. 

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"Just so theres no misunderstanding, this is not a canting keel--its a canting ballast bulb.   A swing-ballast-bulb system reduces ballast requirements by 60 percent, and the boats displacement is only 7,000 pounds. The ballast bulb can be canted 55 degrees to either side, and with a push of a button you can fully tack the system in nine seconds." [2001]

I think it's possible to use it for propulsion in calm water.  The idea would be to get the boat rolling back and forth,  by  canting only 30°+- or so back and forth,  which would take 5+- or so seconds per cycle, and can be accentuated by rhythmic rudder(s) movements to accentuate the roll.  Main on centerline for an added flapping effect.  Experiment with timing, etc.,  for maximum effect.

The same thing can be done by having the crew run from rail to rail, hanging on to the shrouds and leaning out, along with rudder movements.  Get it timed right  and it's quite effective.  We had the motor crap out in a dead calm delivery (7,000 pound boat) and rolled our way to the harbor 5 miles away. Once we were dialled in we could could do a steady 3 knots, I kid you not!

But, I doubt rolling the boat by canting would be an efficient strategy with their setup.  Assuming they had the smallest EFOY fuel cell (3.3amp output) there's not enough juice to "cant-roll" for long without depleting the battery bank; check out the beefy ram setup below.  The shifting crew from rail to rail would probably be more effective.  And,  apparently they had pedal power, another possibly faster means of propulsion.

I bet they didn't cant-roll at all.  They seem to be up front folks, someone should just ask them.

schock.thumb.jpg.01c970c565db35cc632bce5517a9d3bb.jpg

 

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Put on your helmet, this is Special Ed's short bus attempt at Russian bot propaganda.   This claim is not likely or even plausible. They would need a small nuclear reactor to create enough power to skull that boat.

That "fuel cell" is a battery and passed inspection.  Canting the keel takes 22 seconds round trip and uses a ton of power.  That is too slow to create forward momentum and it would drain the battery in minutes. 

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28 minutes ago, IStream said:

Bullshit. The spirit of the rules clearly means propulsion. A fuel cell that puts out barely enough to keep your batteries topped up and not connected to anything that can propel the boat, even indirectly, doesn't violate the spirit of the rules and more than a bilge pump outlet directed abaft of the beam violates the spirit. 

+1

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37 minutes ago, Miffy said:

That is a peculiar way to read the rule, which is obviously focused on propulsion. 

If you're going to interpret "motor" as to mean literally every kind of motor, then a quartz watch movement would be banned under the rule. No fans for ventilation either. 

bilges pumps, macerators, refrigeration, water pressure, auto pilots...there's a ton of them

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How silly to think you can move the keel back and forth for forward motion on battery power. It may work if you had a generator running at full blast, but on R2ak you cannot have a generator nor an engine. So if you were stupid enough to use your very limited battery power to run the keep for forward motion, you might be able to do that a dozen time and you would have run out of power until the next day when your solar panel gives you a few amps. And then you would not be able to move the keel when you actually needed it for stability.

That is a dead argument that sounds like someone is friend with the second place boat.

The boys on Angry Beaver had a fantastic race and this time the monohull beat a very well sailed Tri

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I have done quite a few human/wind powered races. I can confess that even a single boost of an extra energy above your combined output can propel you out of “stuck for hours” situation. 

Single drop of the keel from side to bottom and corresponding flap of sails may just give you that boost.

fuel cell is an electricity generator running on a hydrocarbon fuel. 

Im not taking anything from the outstanding result of Angry Beavers, however it seems to me that rules need some clarifications for future use. 

So, the editor has a valid point. And it is Anarchy after all.

p.s. And I’m Russian. :D

 

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This wasn't a straight sailing race though - they had a pedal drive they could do a sustained 3ish knots on

 

 

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3 minutes ago, CrazyR said:

I have done quite a few human/wind powered races. I can confess that even a single boost of an extra energy above your combined output can propel you out of “stuck for hours” situation. 

Single drop of the keel from side to bottom and corresponding flap of sails may just give you that boost.

fuel cell is an electricity generator running on a hydrocarbon fuel. 

Im not taking anything from the outstanding result of Angry Beavers, however it seems to me that rules need some clarifications for future use. 

So, the editor has a valid point. And it is Anarchy after all.

p.s. And I’m Russian. :D

 

I'll vouch for the crazy part!

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1 hour ago, Parma said:

bilges pumps, macerators, refrigeration, water pressure, auto pilots...there's a ton of them


Yep - the quartz watch was the most absurd item banned I could imagine on a boat. 

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6 hours ago, bodega87 said:

Ed, if you believe you can cant a keel back and forth fast enough to scull a 40fter you are even dumber than I previously thought. 

hey they managed to add motors to  bicycles to cheat, nobody would have thought that possible 10 years ago..

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27 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

hey they managed to add motors to  bicycles to cheat, nobody would have thought that possible 10 years ago..

Hmm, that gives me an idea for my next bike driven propulsion system ....

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Seems like an odd discussion. They hauled ass pretty much the whole way there. I don't think they spent much time wagging their keel to make forward progress.  
But a canting keel IS a non-human powered device that makes the boat faster when sailing... 

Hat's off to the Beaver crew. Awesome sailing! 

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3 minutes ago, Boatzilla said:

Seems like an odd discussion. They hauled ass pretty much the whole way there. I don't think they spent much time wagging their keel to make forward progress.  
But a canting keel IS a non-human powered device that makes the boat faster when sailing... 

Hat's off to the Beaver crew. Awesome sailing! 

+1 They averaged 7.1 knots

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2 hours ago, CrazyR said:

I have done quite a few human/wind powered races. I can confess that even a single boost of an extra energy above your combined output can propel you out of “stuck for hours” situation. 

Single drop of the keel from side to bottom and corresponding flap of sails may just give you that boost.

fuel cell is an electricity generator running on a hydrocarbon fuel. 

Im not taking anything from the outstanding result of Angry Beavers, however it seems to me that rules need some clarifications for future use. 

So, the editor has a valid point. And it is Anarchy after all.

p.s. And I’m Russian. :D

 

This is the same discussion about stored energy as in the AC... anyone without methanol is only storing energy in their bodies and the initial charge of the batteries...  are powered winches allowed? there are things you can do with a fuelcell that you can`t with solar or human power. 

I think they should close that loophole for next time

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Angry Beavers win was a good one and well deserved.

 

BUT for the sake of argument we do not need to focus on the silly notion of flapping the boat forward but simply need to observe that the increased righting moment hence increased sail power was brought about by a motor. 

They have been assisted by a motor for propulsion.

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13 minutes ago, Trickypig said:

Angry Beavers win was a good one and well deserved.

 

BUT for the sake of argument we do not need to focus on the silly notion of flapping the boat forward but simply need to observe that the increased righting moment hence increased sail power was brought about by a motor. 

They have been assisted by a motor for propulsion.

By that argument, a motorized winch is disallowed as well. 

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6 minutes ago, Trickypig said:

and I would agree with that 

Where do you stop? Should all bilge pump outlets be mandated to exit exactly 90 degrees to the centerline? It's thrust from an electric motor, after all. What about the exhaust from a diesel heater? It's thrust from a fossil fuel. 

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21 minutes ago, The Other Guy 97 said:

This is an example of why I find myself reading Scuttlebutt more than Sailing Anarchy lately.

If only he would have agreed to pay MrClean minimum wage  he’d still have someone around to make up bullshit stories.  But working for tips and beer tent media passes just wouldn’t do it even for him. 

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22 minutes ago, IStream said:

 

Where do you stop? Should all bilge pump outlets be mandated to exit exactly 90 degrees to the centerline? It's thrust from an electric motor, after all. What about the exhaust from a diesel heater? It's thrust from a fossil fuel. 

Now you’re being silly. 

If the race organisers need to rule on those things then do so, but in reality it’s entirely unnecessary.

powered keels and winches have a discernible if not large advantage in a ‘human powered/sail powered” race

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2 hours ago, IStream said:

Where do you stop? Should all bilge pump outlets be mandated to exit exactly 90 degrees to the centerline? It's thrust from an electric motor, after all. What about the exhaust from a diesel heater? It's thrust from a fossil fuel. 

What do IRC, ORC, MOCRA and OMR say about these things? All R2AK has to do is copy their exact wording...

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7 hours ago, IStream said:

Bullshit. The spirit of the rules clearly means propulsion. A fuel cell that puts out barely enough to keep your batteries topped up and not connected to anything that can propel the boat, even indirectly, doesn't violate the spirit of the rules and more than a bilge pump outlet directed abaft of the beam violates the spirit. 

Yet the rules specifically disallow generators & allow bilge pumps (granted with the no "jet boat" provision).

Seems to me that they are attempting to/or could be read to be banning "all" motors,  but maybe need to think this one through a bit more for unintended consequences.

Personally I think making boats of this size remove drive motors as opposed to not using them,  is taking away one option in an emergency.  I wouldn't normally describe myself as a "nanny stater",  but I do wonder at this requirement.

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19 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

Personally I think making boats of this size remove drive motors as opposed to not using them,  is taking away one option in an emergency.  I wouldn't normally describe myself as a "nanny stater",  but I do wonder at this requirement.

It’s R2AK’s way of limiting the sophistication, complexity and expense of participating yachts, whilst adding to the raw, learn your limits and beyond, simplistic, improvise and adapt experience missing from so much of modern life....

In my opinion allowing motorised swinging keels was a step contrary to these aims. I love the race the way it was.....

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I agree motorized keel doesn't really seem in the spirit of the race...
However there is no way they had enough power to cant it back and forth enough times to use that as propulsion method: the pedal drives would be much more efficient! Kind of like if some was going to use an electric autopilot to skull the rudder!

Team SUAD also had a methanol fuel cell on board capable of producing about 3W of power so only enough for very basic needs and as a backup for solar (in case of lots of clouds).

I think fuel cells are a grey area as they are getting really close to a "fossil fuel generator". 

One could argue an electric autopilot is borderline because it does use a motor (a windvane would be totally ok though...) but it does help increase participation so I think it's reasonable and you would son end up going "full golden globe" banning electrical "things". 

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Ok. Once again. I’m happy for Angry Beavers.

I enjoy all sorts of innovations,  new and old. Including swinging keels. 

However im having the issue with them not being driven by humans.  Just in this particular race. 

Correct my math. According to boat specs it takes 22 seconds to tack the keel. 

Lets imagine totally still air.

lets swing the keel while the boat is on one tack. Sails stay full, air flow is least disturbed. Let’s rock the boat from 3 degrees of heel to 33 degrees. Back and forth. It is less than full  range. Let’s say 20 seconds.  Three swings per minute. 

It is an equivalent of three pumping of sails in a minute. What sailing rules say about sails pumping? How tall is the rig? 20 meters from waterline, 30 degree swing. It is about 10 meters travel of the head of the main sail in 10 seconds. So it is an equivalent of the boat being hit with top gusts, very light ones, of 2 knots on a reach. Every 10 seconds. 

Going up - power mode, going down - coasting. The equal pic is with foils under water.

im pretty sure that you can get an extra knot or two of the boat speed by just doing this. These two knots of speed when you really need them can make a difference. When you need to cross an eddy. When you need to pull out of whirlpool.

and, since fuelcells are legal, you can get to restore the lost energy in few hours. And fuelcells are fed by fuel....Fuelcells are lighter than an extra battery. Fuelcells don’t need sunlight. 

I don’t like the pic. There is something wrong in it with being just men , beast and nature type of the race.

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26 minutes ago, CrazyR said:

Ok. Once again. I’m happy for Angry Beavers.

I enjoy all sorts of innovations,  new and old. Including swinging keels. 

However im having the issue with them not being driven by humans.  Just in this particular race. 

Correct my math. According to boat specs it takes 22 seconds to tack the keel. 

Lets imagine totally still air.

lets swing the keel while the boat is on one tack. Sails stay full, air flow is least disturbed. Let’s rock the boat from 3 degrees of heel to 33 degrees. Back and forth. It is less than full  range. Let’s say 20 seconds.  Three swings per minute. 

It is an equivalent of three pumping of sails in a minute. What sailing rules say about sails pumping? How tall is the rig? 20 meters from waterline, 30 degree swing. It is about 10 meters travel of the head of the main sail in 10 seconds. So it is an equivalent of the boat being hit with top gusts, very light ones, of 2 knots on a reach. Every 10 seconds. 

Going up - power mode, going down - coasting. The equal pic is with foils under water.

im pretty sure that you can get an extra knot or two of the boat speed by just doing this. These two knots of speed when you really need them can make a difference. When you need to cross an eddy. When you need to pull out of whirlpool.

and, since fuelcells are legal, you can get to restore the lost energy in few hours. And fuelcells are fed by fuel....Fuelcells are lighter than an extra battery. Fuelcells don’t need sunlight. 

I don’t like the pic. There is something wrong in it with being just men , beast and nature type of the race

Boy.  That's a whole lot of bad math (and bad science) for no good reason. 

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6 hours ago, The Other Guy 97 said:

This is an example of why I find myself reading Scuttlebutt more than Sailing Anarchy lately.

Yea but they don't have bOObs

 

sybil-stalone-pornstar-selfie-instagram-

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It's kind of up to the race organizers to decide these thing, it's their baby. They are apparently OK with fuel cells, so fuel cells it is. 

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On 6/11/2019 at 12:30 PM, Editor said:

This comes from a pretty trusted source...

The Shock 40 Angry Beaver (R2AK) had a fuel cell on board to "charge the batteries". Included in  this was canting the keel via an electric pump.  If the reports are correct, they were able to cant the keel back and forth and generate forward motion Sounds like with the main up they could generate 'mo just like rocking a Laser. The power to cant the keel came from the fuel cell.

I doubt the race organizers understood how this system works and that by allowing it they've made their event look pretty much like a powered event.

Put up or shut up with your source - this does not seem plausible/credible or even worthy of the sniff test.

Tabloid journalism will be ashamed to have this story as an example of its type. This is pure Trumpism.

 

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19 hours ago, bodega87 said:

Ed, if you believe you can cant a keel back and forth fast enough to scull a 40fter you are even dumber than I previously thought. 

The dynamics are different than sculling through the water. That's likely why the ED mentioned 'main up'.

Rotating the keel from side to side would heel the boat one way and the other. A sail up would fill one side then the other.  Call it air sculling.

That said, it seems unlikely.   I didn't follow the race, but it musta been verrry light airs if that won the race.  And is the prize money so high?  :mellow:

 

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3 minutes ago, couchsurfer said:

The dynamics are different than sculling through the water. That's likely why the ED mentioned 'main up'.

Rotating the keel from side to side would heel the boat one way and the other. A sail up would fill one side then the other.  Call it air sculling.

That said, it seems unlikely.   I didn't follow the race, but it musta been verrry light airs if that won the race.  And is the prize money so high?  :mellow:

 

These guys are great sailors and won fairly and squarely. 

The SI s don’t address it but unless they’ve unloaded a very large fuel cell in  Ketchican, it’s tabloid journalism, fake, check book, stupid, silly really. 

It was a deserving win, but I hope the organisers change the rules to keep human power as the basic principle. 

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2 entirely different issues:

1. I never thought electric or diesel driven hydraulic keel canting belonged in ANY kind of race anymore so than running a generator and using electric winches would be.

2. There is absolutely no evidence and no practical way for the Beavers to have sculled their way to Alaska. They followed the rules and won fair and square unless you KNOW different. My boat has an engine, so I could motor around the course in light air and win, but I don't and no one accuses me of cheating just because I could. Cheating with fuel cell power would be like saying I motored to Alaska but only had 8 ounces of gas and a 1/8 HP engine :rolleyes:

* a side note: The jet bilge pump thing has been done in an America's Cup race or trial IIRC. They had really strong guys with a really big pump that exited the stern and had a tendency to "spring a leak" in calm air :lol:

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You can't rock the boat with the hydraulic keel.  You'd have better luck just running from side to side with the keel straight down. Have your stupid fuel cell arguments if you want, but if you think that you can rock that boat effectively using the hydraulics you're a moron.

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I talked to a Beaver last night and in the early part of the race they were gravity dropping (opening hydraulic valve manually and letting the keel fall to leeward before turning) the keel as often as possible in their tacks to conserve power so they would have power to cant in Hecate Straight where the conditions got pretty sporty. 

So this is all BS.

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1 hour ago, 82brady said:

You can't rock the boat with the hydraulic keel.  You'd have better luck just running from side to side with the keel straight down. Have your stupid fuel cell arguments if you want, but if you think that you can rock that boat effectively using the hydraulics you're a moron.

It is a light narrow boat without form stability to talk about. Basically canoe. Designed for inshore racing as a fast tacker. It goes through full swing of 110 degrees in 22 seconds. To pump sails you don’t need 110 degrees, you need 30 on one side. Basically - lift  and gravity dump. About 10-15 seconds per cycle.  Yes, you can rock this boat quite efficiently. 

I didn’t say that they did it. 

Im just saying that the controversy will persist unless addressed in rules.

 

 

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On 6/11/2019 at 7:19 AM, Cal20sailor said:

I hate this.  Unless they lied on their entrance documentation, they sailed by the rules.  The Ed, when faced with his only competition, lost to Snapper.  The Ed sees the hits/income going down and is being desperate.  The Beavers sailed the course and I very much doubt extra movement of their keel was not part of it.  Again, someone said something stupid after 6 days of no sleep, go figure.  

 

Exactly... and probably one of the reasons the organizers are considering taking a hiatus from the event... it has gotten too big (too much attention rather than a get together of adventure racers)... to the point that douchebags like the Ed start trying to drum up rule controversy bullshit rather than just having fun with the race.  The irony that the Ed, who celebrates anarchy, gets caught up in bullshit rule drama in a race like the R2AK.  Thank you, organizers, for putting together this cool race... I love that you made a simple rule and do not have a big payday... that is enough to keep competitors from trying to do a bunch of crap to try and win it outside of the concept... ignore this crap and let's keep having fun with it.

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22 hours ago, timber said:

The spirit of the rules were violated IMHO. The rule says Motor of any type.  A hydraulic pump needs an electric motor. Or when did an electric motor stop being a motor.

"Motors and engines of ANY fuel type"    "a vessel without a motor"

 

The organizers knew what kind of boat the entrants were to use, and if they allowed them to race, then screw all this non-troversy.

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10 hours ago, spankoka said:

It's kind of up to the race organizers to decide these thing, it's their baby. They are apparently OK with fuel cells, so fuel cells it is. 

And since the race winner is rewarded with steak knives and pocket change, I think people should shut up and let the organizers have fun running the race without doucebags from thousands of miles away trying to pump controversy.

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The focus on pumping to windward is missing the main point. Boats have canting keels because it gives them a sailing advantage over a fixed keel - a more powered-up larger rig and sailing flatter for a given wind speed. The advantage comes at the cost of energy expended to cant the keel. If that energy comes from muscle power, then fair enough and everyone is happy. But if the keel is canted from a non-muscle ("free") energy source, then every tack is giving that boat a free advantage. If the boat had to use the crew energy to swing the keel and tack the boat, then they would be slower, simple (the crew would suffer an energy cost, would tack less, need more rest etc.).

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And yet still they were entered into the event by the organizers , sailed the course, no protest from the other competitors, or the RC at the finish line - so non-issue for those that competed and all this is hot air from non-participants and someone looking for clicks. 

We had our cheating thread here in 2001 after winning one of the biggest events in the US, measured boat, not protested by any competitors, cleared by RC and yet a friend (who was not sailing) of one guy we beat spins up 10 pages of BS.... It sucks as an owner or competitor.    This place has as many crackpots and is as bad as Breitbart.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Boink said:

Put up or shut up with your source - this does not seem plausible/credible or even worthy of the sniff test.

Tabloid journalism will be ashamed to have this story as an example of its type. This is pure Trumpism.

 

"Fake News"

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One minute Google Search. Scuttlebutt Sailing News for June 6th ... "Angry Beavers: Forward hatch leaked and watered the interior of their boat. Potentially related, they also lost their fuel cell for generating electricity for their canting keel."

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When I declared my r2ak boat had electric pumps to move and dump water ballast, the RC only asking if the pumps could be used for propulsion. That is, no motor to directly driving the boat. That is an advantage to any water ballast boat in light conditions when an Elvstrom bailer ceases to drain.

Why would the RC limit innovation? It took 50 years for canting keels to make it into racing Jim Young wrote.

Bring on a bigger multihull, hear there is a cheap one in Hawaii....

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Guvacine said:

One minute Google Search. Scuttlebutt Sailing News for June 6th ... "Angry Beavers: Forward hatch leaked and watered the interior of their boat. Potentially related, they also lost their fuel cell for generating electricity for their canting keel."

You used the S word...:o

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Lol. Your an idiot for this one. There is no way we could cant fast enough and to top it off most of our keel movement happens with a big gravity drop then a hand pump. Haters gon hate i guess. But we sailed a nice race.

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5 minutes ago, weatherlyjohnson said:

Lol. Your an idiot for this one. There is no way we could cant fast enough and to top it off most of our keel movement happens with a big gravity drop then a hand pump. Haters gon hate i guess. But we sailed a nice race.

Don't bring facts like gravity drops into this.....  ; )

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45 minutes ago, weatherlyjohnson said:

Lol. Your an idiot for this one. There is no way we could cant fast enough and to top it off most of our keel movement happens with a big gravity drop then a hand pump. Haters gon hate i guess. But we sailed a nice race.

That you did. Well done!

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Whether you did gravity drops "most" of the time is NOT the point.

The point is, did you tell the organizers that you had a powered canting keel, and did they approve it?

You can clear that up for us right now, and that will be the end of the story (at least for me).

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30 minutes ago, Guvacine said:

Whether you did gravity drops "most" of the time is NOT the point.

The point is, did you tell the organizers that you had a powered canting keel, and did they approve it?

You can clear that up for us right now, and that will be the end of the story (at least for me).

And also tell us when you stopped beating your wife. We demand answers.

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