nolatom

Stanford sailing coach gets probation

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he's a good guy.  one day, time served.  good show.  Does stanford pay it back to charity?

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All the geniuses at Stanford cant figure out what to do with the "tainted" money? Have they ever heard of a little city near campus called "East Palo Alto"?

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2 minutes ago, MikeR80 said:

All the geniuses at Stanford cant figure out what to do with the "tainted" money? Have they ever heard of a little city near campus called "East Palo Alto"?

You clearly haven't been around here for awhile....

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if his title was stanford president..and not sailing coach.. this is not a story.   He gets credit for raising money for the school.  His misfortune was being linked to the other stories of blatant  cheating or stuffing your pocket.  The judgement seems fair.

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22 minutes ago, Tcatman said:

if his title was stanford president..and not sailing coach.. this is not a story.   He gets credit for raising money for the school.  

Except for the felony part, you're right!  Ask John in 5 years how that's gone for him

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Alan have you read the indictment?   Does it mention anywhere what his yearly salary was?

My guess is $100-120k+ great benefits.  Pricey area of the country but he likely could get Stanford housing in Palo Alto.

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3 hours ago, MikeR80 said:

All the geniuses at Stanford cant figure out what to do with the "tainted" money? Have they ever heard of a little city near campus called "East Palo Alto"?

I guess you are not paying very close attention nor have been to East Palo Alto recently.

From the SF Chronicle: "Stanford University, struggling to recover from an admissions scandal, told a federal judge Monday it is working with the state attorney general’s office to find a worthy cause for $770,000 donated by families of would-be recruits to the school’s sailing team, including $610,000 in bribes to the coach. Stanford “views those funds as tainted “ and “does not wish to benefit in any way” from the conduct of former coach John Vandemoer, the university’s general counsel, Debra Zumwalt, said in a “victim impact statement” to the judge in Boston who is handling Vandemoer’s criminal case. Zumwalt said the school wants the funds to be used for the “public good.” Stanford is consulting with the charitable division of Attorney General Xavier Becerra’s office on how to redirect the funds, said Brad Hayward, a university spokesman."

 

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44 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

If you're white, you're alright.  

Or you could look at the actual mitigating facts the judge took into account in determining the sentencing:

1) The coach did not personally benefit by even $1. The money went to the program.

2) None of the three students in question actually attended Stanford as a sailing recruit (or, indeed, at all)

3) He was the first to come forward, acknowledge his role and cooperate with the investigation

4) He expressed complete contrition

5) After his six months of house arrest and another 18 months of supervision his career is destroyed

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Regarding career being ruined. Well that just sucks. Perhaps Jon should have thought about that prior to “working” the system. 

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An appropriate sentence....others will not be so fortunate...especially the Hollywood couple that has plead not guilty and will go to trial...

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The guy didn’t profit personally, he only added to the much needed coffers of an underfunded sailing program

 

funny but most schools in the pccsc do not consider stanford's program as underfunded...

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15 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

he's a good guy.  one day, time served.  good show.  Does stanford pay it back to charity?

Ha ha about Stanford paying the money back. Universities like that are like Trump. If they smell someone else's money they come running and grab as much as they can. No shame at all.

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7 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

Ha ha about Stanford paying the money back. Universities like that are like Trump. If they smell someone else's money they come running and grab as much as they can. No shame at all.

You appear to be illiterate.

From the SF Chronicle: "Stanford University, struggling to recover from an admissions scandal, told a federal judge Monday it is working with the state attorney general’s office to find a worthy cause for $770,000 donated by families of would-be recruits to the school’s sailing team, including $610,000 in bribes to the coach. Stanford “views those funds as tainted “ and “does not wish to benefit in any way” from the conduct of former coach John Vandemoer, the university’s general counsel, Debra Zumwalt, said in a “victim impact statement” to the judge in Boston who is handling Vandemoer’s criminal case. Zumwalt said the school wants the funds to be used for the “public good.” Stanford is consulting with the charitable division of Attorney General Xavier Becerra’s office on how to redirect the funds, said Brad Hayward, a university spokesman."

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3 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:
15 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

he's a good guy.  one day, time served.  good show.  Does stanford pay it back to charity?

Ha ha about Stanford paying the money back. Universities like that are like Trump. If they smell someone else's money they come running and grab as much as they can. No shame at all.

Oh I dunno, they seem to have a little bit of shame. Now they view the money as "tainted" and are looking at ways to give it to charity.

Using the sailing program to circumvent admissions was a criminal act. I'm disgusted that it will put college sailing especially, and sailing in general, in disrepute; I'm also a little surprised that a major university like that would give so much weight to a sailing coach's recommendations.

The college admissions process is blatantly up for sale. If your daddy buys the university a building or two, then yeah, come on in whatever your grades may be! But trying to short-change the system is bad. It's not that justice is for sale, it's the back-door sales prices I disagree with.

FB- Doug

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24 minutes ago, aA said:

The guy didn’t profit personally, he only added to the much needed coffers of an underfunded sailing program

 

funny but most schools in the pccsc do not consider stanford's program as underfunded...

True, and hey in a year or two after things quiet down they’ll all be able to afford to hire a new coach with a hell of a track record. 

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3 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

The college admissions process is blatantly up for sale. If your daddy buys the university a building or two, then yeah, come on in whatever your grades may be! But trying to short-change the system is bad. It's not that justice is for sale, it's the back-door sales prices I disagree with.

FB- Doug

If it weren’t for that back door process those uni foundations wouldn’t be worth a billion dollars and then how would they afford to build those pretty buildings

 

 

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3 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

If it weren’t for that back door process those uni foundations wouldn’t be worth a billion dollars and then how would they afford to build those pretty buildings

 

Corruption..... now on sale at bargain prices, so everyday folk like you can afford to have some too!

-DSK

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Its unclear if he is getting 5 years probation tacked onto the punishment. 

 

If he is getting 5 years probation, he will never be free. He'll be trapped in this system 4vr. There is virtually no way to go 5 years without getting dragged in on some pretext. The system loves repeat customers, they are the most profitable. 

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I hear that $20MM is the cost of admissions to a top Ivy league school. Heard a story about a kid with three comma parents applying in June with poor grades etc..... If you can write a big enough check, you don't have to commit fraud or break the law.

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Corruption..... now on sale at bargain prices, so everyday folk like you can afford to have some too!

-DSK

Always has been always will.

Pretty amazed that some rich white folk are actually answering for the crime. It’s a first. 

If there’s one thing that both sides of the aisle seem to agree on (albeit it for entirely different reasons) its this: Trump has pulled back the curtain on the way business is conducted in this country, and the results mean better justice for its citizens (eventually, one way or another)....

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3 minutes ago, 6924 said:

There is virtually no way to go 5 years without getting dragged in on some pretext. The system loves repeat customers, they are the most profitable. 

If you’re a feckless fuckwit maybe. Don’t forget: he’s white. 

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24 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

True, and hey in a year or two after things quiet down they’ll all be able to afford to hire a new coach with a hell of a track  criminal record. 

 

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I think back to cold March days forty-plus years ago in Boston, trying to glass and Marine-Tex the busted-in bows of some very beat Tech Dinghys, at B.U., in a shed with no heat, so we could open up in April and start practicing.  We ran on spit and baling wire, yet it was a pretty good team.  We benefited a lot from MIT, Harvard, and the Coast Guard Academy, who hosted the "big" regattas.  And we benefited from the kids coming out of good racing programs around Mass Bay and LIS. 

How would I have reacted to some greasy money coming in??  Not sure.  No, I wouldn't have pocketed any.  Beyond that, I don't know. 

Is sailing (and the justice system) "too white"?  Uh, yeah, though it may have taken relocating to New Orleans for me to realize it up-close.   Glad a true community sailing center is coming into being here. 

 

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12 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

I guess you are not paying very close attention nor have been to East Palo Alto recently.

From the SF Chronicle: "Stanford University, struggling to recover from an admissions scandal, told a federal judge Monday it is working with the state attorney general’s office to find a worthy cause for $770,000 donated by families of would-be recruits to the school’s sailing team, including $610,000 in bribes to the coach. Stanford “views those funds as tainted “ and “does not wish to benefit in any way” from the conduct of former coach John Vandemoer, the university’s general counsel, Debra Zumwalt, said in a “victim impact statement” to the judge in Boston who is handling Vandemoer’s criminal case. Zumwalt said the school wants the funds to be used for the “public good.” Stanford is consulting with the charitable division of Attorney General Xavier Becerra’s office on how to redirect the funds, said Brad Hayward, a university spokesman."

 

So yes, the Stanford geniuses appear to need help in trying to decide what to do with the money.   How about give it to this elementary school, that appears to be awful, that sits just a couple miles from Stanford's campus? https://www.realtor.com/local/schools/belle-haven-elementary-school_078670141

And what has Stanford sailing done to get low income and at-risk youth on the water?

PS-- Is there a better coaching job in American Sailing than being the Stanford coach? You are paid well, with excellent benefits and facilities in order to compete against a bunch of club teams with basically no funding-- there isnt another well-funded program within 1,000 miles of Stanford, other than maybe USC.

 

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13 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

If you're white/wealthy/connected, you're alright.  

Fixed.

I won't deny that some racial privilege may have saved this guy but plenty of wealthy, well connected people avoid justice in this country, regardless of their race.

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1 hour ago, LI_sailor said:

i think the sentence is fair; he didnt take a dime and gave it all to his team.

I think its a little naive to image that a his salary was unaffected by the level of donations coming into the program. He may not have put the money directly into his pocket, but he certainly would have profited from it had this not been exposed.

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I can kind of see people being offended at the underhanded dealing but I have a hard time finding the victims here. Any kid that got bumped from Stanford almost certainly got into another good school. And the rich kids who got into top schools were always going to slot in somewhere so nobody really got dropped off the bottom of the ladder. 

So wealthier people get opportunities & benefits that the less wealthy do not. That's just the way of the world I think. 

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John has a flawed moral character.

This was fraud, knowingly committed. He knew what he was doing was wrong and reprehensible but he did it anyway. Not once, but three times.... over a period of time.

It was pre-meditated and deliberate.  it required thought and effort on his part. He lied to his colleagues, his students and admissions staff. He falsified documents. He told himself that the end justified the means.

He knew with complete certainty that if his fraud was successful,  he was depriving a deserving kid of a place at Stanford University. Some kid out there, who had worked their butt off for four years with a dream of going to Stanford was going to have that dream taken away by his actions.   He sat at his desk, knowing the implications of what he was doing, knowing that it was wrong and criminal and then went ahead and did it anyway. He falsified a student athlete recommendation.

The end that justified destroying the aspirations of a deserving college applicant?  Was it a medical program that would save lives? A fund to give hope to starvation in Somalia? Nope!  It was to fund his own prestigious sailing program so that it would be better funded than the competition.

I doubt that John is a bad person. He is genuinely contrite and distraught over his actions and the agony he has caused his family. John is not Whitey Bulger.  But he has weak moral fiber. He did not have the strength of character to say No.

He will get his MBA but employment will be difficult because the character flaw is hard to fix.

There is the doctor who accepts the donation to the hospital and someone rises a few spots on the kidney recipient list.  

There is the corporate executive who crosses a line for no personal gain but wants his (or her) company to win.

There is the FIFA executive who votes for Kazakhstan  as the host of the next world cup and his local impoverished third world football association receives a donation from a Lichtenstein foundation    

Then, there are those who say No.   Those are the ones you want to hire. They will never let you down and never embarrass you.

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13 minutes ago, Ajax said:

 plenty of wealthy, well connected people avoid justice in this country, regardless of their race.

Cite please. 

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6 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

I have a hard time finding the victims here. Any kid that got bumped from Stanford almost certainly got into another good school.

Actually no kid got bumped because none of the 3 kids in question ended up attending Stanford as a sailing recruit. Stanford, itself, was the one who filed the victim impact statement with the court.

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8 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

John has a flawed moral character.

This was fraud, knowingly committed. He knew what he was doing was wrong and reprehensible but he did it anyway. Not once, but three times.... over a period of time.

It was pre-meditated and deliberate.  it required thought and effort on his part. He lied to his colleagues, his students and admissions staff. He falsified documents. He told himself that the end justified the means.

He knew with complete certainty that if his fraud was successful,  he was depriving a deserving kid of a place at Stanford University. Some kid out there, who had worked their butt off for four years with a dream of going to Stanford was going to have that dream taken away by his actions.   He sat at his desk, knowing the implications of what he was doing, knowing that it was wrong and criminal and then went ahead and did it anyway. He falsified a student athlete recommendation.

The end that justified destroying the aspirations of a deserving college applicant?  Was it a medical program that would save lives? A fund to give hope to starvation in Somalia? Nope!  It was to fund his own prestigious sailing program so that it would be better funded than the competition.

I doubt that John is a bad person. He is genuinely contrite and distraught over his actions and the agony he has caused his family. John is not Whitey Bulger.  But he has weak moral fiber. He did not have the strength of character to say No.

He will get his MBA but employment will be difficult because the character flaw is hard to fix.

 

That would be true in many industries, but if sports have shown us anything it’s that criminal history ain’t much of an issue for someone who knows how to win

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3 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Actually no kid got bumped because none of the 3 kids in question ended up attending Stanford as a sailing recruit. Stanford, itself, was the one who filed the victim impact statement with the court.

When John filed his falsified submissions, it was his intent that an unqualified applicant replace a qualified applicant who would be bumped.  It is an abhorrent concept but he deliberately proceeded with the fraud.

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I tried to steal the thing.

I got caught before I could get away.

Ergo, no crime was committed.

Also, it was just a joke.

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Corruption..... now on sale at bargain prices, so everyday folk like you can afford to have some too!

-DSK

i don't know about bargain prices,  kushner is getting 90 mil...

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4 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

When John filed his falsified submissions, it was his intent that an unqualified applicant replace a qualified applicant who would be bumped.  It is an abhorrent concept but he deliberately proceeded with the fraud.

That is correct. What all 50 people involved in this scandal did was abhorrent. I don't see anyone defending John's behavior. However, the topic of the thread was the sentence imposed, and the judge found some mitigating factors in John's case relative to the others because, for example, he didn't take any of the money for himself unlike many of the other coaches implicated.

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7 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

i don't know about bargain prices,  kushner is getting 90 mil...

That's the gold-plated Cadillac model, not the everyday folks Chevy

What pisses me off is that America is supposed to be the place where nobody cares who your father is, if you work hard you should be able to succeed.

And it's the sailing team. Disclaimer- it pisses me off when the rowing team was used for this sort of shit too

FB- Doug

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15 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

... he didn't take any of the money for himself unlike many of the other coaches implicated.

he did not 'pocket' the money. whether financial gains (by way of salary increase, bonus, etc) were personally made, implied, or guaranteed is not known if i understand correctly

 

with regards to his cooperation and contrition, i agree there should be some leniency on sentencing. was the sentencing fair and equitable, i don't know. it appears we will have to wait and see in the future if the punishment matches the crime

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29 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Cite please. 

https://allthatsinteresting.com/famous-acquittals

https://www.wpr.org/poor-stay-jail-while-rich-go-free-rethinking-cash-bail-wisconsin

https://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/18/do-rich-people-get-off-easier-when-they-break-the-law/

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5156/99b3bacf2a82ff98522675ccb3ec0ea16d6d.pdf

What does it matter if I provide cites or not?  You'll just tear them apart, claiming that they're all invalid for one reason or another.  By the "cite please" comment, do you really mean to imply that no wealthy or well connected person ever cheated justice in the US courts, ever?? 

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So the school took the money out of the goodness of their hearts, expecting nothing to return?  I call bullshit, and the fall guy not only is protecting other top guilty parties, he will be rewarded after this quiets done

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It is no secret that people of means are able to "buy" things and their way into things that people of "lesser means" will always struggle to EARN their way into.

For instance- in public school you are graded on your work and that grade can run anywhere from a 0 to 100.  Hard stop.  Perhaps some public school teachers take something on the side to adjust grades, but the typical public school parent really doesn't have that kind of cash and are more likely to be ok with their kid learning some hard lessons.

In the private school forum some schools have a policy that you can't get less than a 50. Also, well paying parents can get grades adjusted if they don't like what the kids actually earned.

It's a catch 22 for the school.  Teach the kid how to be responsible for their work or piss off the parents and loose the tuition fees that are desperately needed to pay for state of the art facilities to attract more high paying parents who are essentially buying their kids way into college.  Sometimes with grades they actually earned.  Sometimes with the grades the helicopter parents have negotiated for their kids.

Then you see some of those kids getting into universities that they are likely to fail in because the parent is a high donating alum or even on a board position.  I say likely to fail because as you go through life you are likely to stumble into some situation that you just can't buy your way out of.  It typically comes around at some point and when it does the ego from years of dodging the system by throwing money at it will get in the way of the person of means to accept reality.

Bottom line. Yes-some people can buy their way through life and never get nailed.  Some will get nailed at some point.  It's just how it goes.

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1 hour ago, nolatom said:

I think back to cold March days forty-plus years ago in Boston, trying to glass and Marine-Tex the busted-in bows of some very beat Tech Dinghys, at B.U., in a shed with no heat, so we could open up in April and start practicing.  We ran on spit and baling wire, yet it was a pretty good team.  We benefited a lot from MIT, Harvard, and the Coast Guard Academy, who hosted the "big" regattas.  And we benefited from the kids coming out of good racing programs around Mass Bay and LIS. 

How would I have reacted to some greasy money coming in??  Not sure.  No, I wouldn't have pocketed any.  Beyond that, I don't know. 

I was reading some excerpts from an interview Vandermoer gave before sentencing, talking about how he was recruited by Singer. As these things tend to go, it started small with innocent, seemingly legitimate inquiries and escalated. While it should have been obvious when the relationship became criminal - and clearly he was casting himself in the best light possible in the interview - he was able to rationalize it to himself as the payments and depth of fraud increased. I'd like to think I'd do the right thing in similar circumstances, but I don't think there's an honest person who isn't haunted by that question in cases like this.

1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

The end that justified destroying the aspirations of a deserving college applicant?

I agree with your premise that this was a scheme to deprive deserving students of admissions slots, but "destroying aspirations" is a tad melodramatic. If not getting into Stanford, when admissions to top colleges is more and more of a crapshoot, is a catastrophic event for you, you may need to rethink your outlook on the future.

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1 hour ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Actually no kid got bumped because none of the 3 kids in question ended up attending Stanford as a sailing recruit. Stanford, itself, was the one who filed the victim impact statement with the court.

Sure. Because he got caught. Don't have a lot of sympathy for the guy. I feel the sentence is a bit light.

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2 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

You appear to be illiterate.

From the SF Chronicle: "Stanford University, struggling to recover from an admissions scandal, told a federal judge Monday it is working with the state attorney general’s office to find a worthy cause for $770,000 donated by families of would-be recruits to the school’s sailing team, including $610,000 in bribes to the coach. Stanford “views those funds as tainted “ and “does not wish to benefit in any way” from the conduct of former coach John Vandemoer, the university’s general counsel, Debra Zumwalt, said in a “victim impact statement” to the judge in Boston who is handling Vandemoer’s criminal case. Zumwalt said the school wants the funds to be used for the “public good.” Stanford is consulting with the charitable division of Attorney General Xavier Becerra’s office on how to redirect the funds, said Brad Hayward, a university spokesman."

Stanford will find a place for the money in a way it benefits the university is my bet. Maybe it is scholarships for poor students or a grant to the kazoo club. Whatever, they will find a way to keep the money within the school some way or another. I'm sure you don't remember but a few years ago Yale was forced to give back money to a donor because they didn't comply with the terms of the grant. Yale fought this for years until finally a judge made them give the money back.  Universities like Stanford(Yale too) are great at hiding money for their own purposes.  I still believe that this money will be sloshing around somewhere within the University, just not in the sailing program. 

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Just now, Zonker said:

Sure. Because he got caught. Don't have a lot of sympathy for the guy. I feel the sentence is a bit light.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the guy either. I don't know what sentence he would have received in Canada, but here in the USA I feel as if we already lock up way too many non-violent criminals so the sentence of one day in jail, six months house arrest and 18 months supervised probation was appropriate. I suppose the judge could also have fined him 3 times the bribes he pocketed, but that would have been zero.

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2 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

Stanford will find a place for the money in a way it benefits the university is my bet. Maybe it is scholarships for poor students or a grant to the kazoo club. Whatever, they will find a way to keep the money within the school some way or another. I'm sure you don't remember but a few years ago Yale was forced to give back money to a donor because they didn't comply with the terms of the grant. Yale fought this for years until finally a judge made them give the money back.  Universities like Stanford(Yale too) are great at hiding money for their own purposes.  I still believe that this money will be sloshing around somewhere within the University, just not in the sailing program. 

OK, I will take your bet.

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So he deposited all of the money in an account for "the program", but he in fact controlled and directed use of the "the program's" funds.  So yes, it's great that he didn't just personally pocket the money, but he did in fact have control over the funds in question.

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2 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

OK, I will take your bet.

you are a Stanford alum, and/or have close friends and/or family that are Stanford alums, is that correct?

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1 minute ago, some dude said:

OJ Simpson

a better example is the fact that conviction rates for those of little means w/ public defenders is nearly identical to those that have the funds to hire their own criminal defense team...

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54 minutes ago, Ajax said:

https://allthatsinteresting.com/famous-acquittals

https://www.wpr.org/poor-stay-jail-while-rich-go-free-rethinking-cash-bail-wisconsin

https://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/18/do-rich-people-get-off-easier-when-they-break-the-law/

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5156/99b3bacf2a82ff98522675ccb3ec0ea16d6d.pdf

What does it matter if I provide cites or not?  You'll just tear them apart, claiming that they're all invalid for one reason or another.  By the "cite please" comment, do you really mean to imply that no wealthy or well connected person ever cheated justice in the US courts, ever?? 

Not at all. I asked for cites because I am interested in anything that shows that people of color are getting off as much as white people, at any economic level. That would be joyous.

At the moment, every statistical analysis I've seen exonerations, prosecutions brought, plea deal terms, and convictions categorized by race finds that being white is still a hell of an advantage over everyone else in criminal courts across the country.

 

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23 minutes ago, MikeR80 said:

So he deposited all of the money in an account for "the program", but he in fact controlled and directed use of the "the program's" funds.  So yes, it's great that he didn't just personally pocket the money, but he did in fact have control over the funds in question.

maybe he got to keep the coach boat..

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29 minutes ago, MikeR80 said:

a better example is the fact that conviction rates for those of little means w/ public defenders is nearly identical to those that have the funds to hire their own criminal defense team...

Not when corrected for the amount spent on defense.

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25 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Not at all. I asked for cites because I am interested in anything that shows that people of color are getting off as much as white people, at any economic level. That would be joyous.

At the moment, every statistical analysis I've seen exonerations, prosecutions brought, plea deal terms, and convictions categorized by race finds that being white is still a hell of an advantage over everyone else in criminal courts across the country.

 

Well, the first cite discussed Snoop Dog's acquittal. Perhaps you'll find something useful in there.

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13 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Well, the first cite discussed Snoop Dog's acquittal. Perhaps you'll find something useful in there.

Except for the fact that Snoop was neither rich nor famous when that all happened, that's super useful.  His lawyer was more famous then he was, the cops were like the keystone cops, and there was no evidence of his involvement in the crime. 

He's done pretty well on his plea deals ever since though, and that wasn't Johnny Cochran's work.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Not when corrected for the amount spent on defense.

got a cite for that? ;)

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7 minutes ago, MikeR80 said:

got a cite for that? ;)

Now I really gotta do some research, IIRC it was a bar review article from a law student/sociology PhD

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25 minutes ago, MikeR80 said:

got a cite for that? ;)

This is the DOJ statistical set most people cite for the 'same rates' argument, but it's quite old and massively flawed for evidence that good  private attorneys don't significantly improve your odds over the alternatives when in criminal court.

Warts and all, what everyone remembers about it is that appointed or private counsel doesn't change the conviction rate for the accused, rather than the fact that having private counsel gave you an 11-17% better chance of not going to prison than appointed counsel.

 

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23 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

This is the DOJ statistical set most people cite for the 'same rates' argument, but it's quite old and massively flawed for evidence that good  private attorneys don't significantly improve your odds over the alternatives when in criminal court.

Warts and all, what everyone remembers about it is that appointed or private counsel doesn't change the conviction rate for the accused, rather than the fact that having private counsel gave you an 11-17% better chance of not going to prison than appointed counsel.

 

Interesting, is that corrected for socio economic factors?

My gut says that being able to afford private counsel might be as important as whether you actually use a private counsel.

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25 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

Interesting, is that corrected for socio economic factors?

My gut says that being able to afford private counsel might be as important as whether you actually use a private counsel.

No, it's not corrected for anything but there are a smattering of studies out there that support your gut. 

Note that a substantial percentage of defendants in those BCI stats (I think over 15%) represented themselves pro se, which is a group that is almost entirely poor, uneducated, and/or with significant mental health issues, and they had a substantially worse outcome than either of the represented groups.

 

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As to the coach, he lost his job.  He lost his reputation in his own community as well as in the broader community.  So he has been punished and is unlikely to repeat this or similar behavior.  What is the point in locking him up?

I just left court on a private hire case.  The last time his grandmother hired me I got him probation on a drug and gun case.  Today he plead guilty to two burglaries.  He is on probation on two older cases for a long time.  He'd already lost the revocation hearing and the Judge deferred sentencing.  He has another burglary pending in another county.  He is 27 with an eighth grade education.  He'll be out in a couple years.  Maybe if we spent money on the front end we wouldn't be tilting at windmills at this point.

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3 hours ago, MikeR80 said:

you are a Stanford alum, and/or have close friends and/or family that are Stanford alums, is that correct?

Yes, although I am not entirely clear why that is relevant.

 

My sense is that the university is so embarrassed and mortified by this incident that they will go to great lengths to make certain they don't end up with one tainted penny. You proposed a bet that Stanford will find a place for the money in a way it benefits the university . I accept your bet and propose a bottle of Mt. Gay as the stakes.

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7 hours ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Yes, although I am not entirely clear why that is relevant.

 

My sense is that the university is so embarrassed and mortified by this incident that they will go to great lengths to make certain they don't end up with one tainted penny. You proposed a bet that Stanford will find a place for the money in a way it benefits the university . I accept your bet and propose a bottle of Mt. Gay as the stakes.

i sensed a bit of bias and assumed you were an alum, and wanted to confirm that.

stanford needs to accept the fact that they are not special when it comes to athletic scandal, most schools with big time sports, outside of the ivys have had some sort of scandal over the last 30+ years.  nobody gives a crap that the fab five had all their wins vacated when deciding if they should send their kid to university of michigan, for example.  in other words, athletic scandal clearly doesnt affect the long term reputation of otherwise good schools, in my opinion.

stanford has always been a great academic school that didnt mind not competing in the major sports because they were clean and did well in fringe sports.  no more.  oh well, sports doesnt matter much when you are silicon valley and a 15min drive from a huge % of the worlds wealth...

as someone that went to undergrad at boston u (great college hockey, not much else), and univ of miami for law, its a lot more fun watching miami compete, notwithstanding the scandals.

it was not I who proposed a bet, although i do enjoy the occasional rum drink!

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1) I am thinking of the little Chinese girl from my son's Manhattan HS. My kids HS typically sends 30-40% of the class to elite schools. 

She had a dozen APs, all 5s; Captain of a regional winning sports team, plus the usual overachieving national style science awards, lives in outer Queens. Parents run a bodega, barely speak English. 

She didn't get into any elite school.  Her only choice was SUNY Binghampton ( similar level to say CalState Fullerton or Chino)

Her well earned place was taken (stolen?) from her by some child of corrupt parents.  

This scandal is just the tip of the iceberg.   Its ramifications will spread slowly. When people believe the system is corrupt and unfair, then we got real problems.  

2) Also, note all of us with degrees from elite institutions and coming from prosperous families will be forever suspect that we didn't earn our place.  

 

 

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6 hours ago, 6924 said:

1) I am thinking of the little Chinese girl from my son's Manhattan HS. My kids HS typically sends 30-40% of the class to elite schools. 

She had a dozen APs, all 5s; Captain of a regional winning sports team, plus the usual overachieving national style science awards, lives in outer Queens. Parents run a bodega, barely speak English. 

She didn't get into any elite school.  Her only choice was SUNY Binghampton ( similar level to say CalState Fullerton or Chino)

 

 

 

she must have really sucked at her SAT's

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19 hours ago, 6924 said:

1) I am thinking of the little Chinese girl from my son's Manhattan HS. My kids HS typically sends 30-40% of the class to elite schools. 

She had a dozen APs, all 5s; Captain of a regional winning sports team, plus the usual overachieving national style science awards, lives in outer Queens. Parents run a bodega, barely speak English. 

She didn't get into any elite school.  Her only choice was SUNY Binghampton ( similar level to say CalState Fullerton or Chino)

Her well earned place was taken (stolen?) from her by some child of corrupt parents.  

This scandal is just the tip of the iceberg.   Its ramifications will spread slowly. When people believe the system is corrupt and unfair, then we got real problems.  

2) Also, note all of us with degrees from elite institutions and coming from prosperous families will be forever suspect that we didn't earn our place.  

 

 

How many of us thought we were the mistake?

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Scanned down the thread, very confused by it.

The entire USA runs on kickbacks and corruption. 

It's a fucking shame to see good people prosecuted for it.

 

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On 6/14/2019 at 4:44 AM, 6924 said:

 Also, note all of us with degrees from elite institutions and coming from prosperous families will be forever suspect that we didn't earn our place.  

 

 

 

I feel I earned my place.

When I was a freshman at U Penn, I was a little surprised that the head coach of the women's rowing team rushed up to me, shook my hand and told me how excited everyone was about me becoming varsity coxswain. I had never been on a rowing shell and had no idea what she was talking about but I rolled with it. Hey why not give it a go?   It turned out it wasn't so hard, after a few mishaps I soon got the hang of it.  

I had a different style. I didnt politely ask the crew to "Next stroke, paddle firm".....I would scream "Okay bitches, I want to see blood coming out of your eyeballs, PULL"

They must have liked me because they named the new rowing pavilion after me! ..........They also named the new engineering auditorium after me, but I dont know why because my major was Anthropology of the Hawaiian Islands (which was great because my Daddy owns one) 

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On 6/14/2019 at 4:44 AM, 6924 said:

 

2) Also, note all of us with degrees from elite institutions and coming from prosperous families will be forever suspect that we didn't earn our place.  

 

 

Seems fair! Used to be those of us "with degrees from elite institutions" and coming from NON prosperous families were suspect that we didn't earn our place.

 

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