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LionessRacing

Cabin & Deck refurbish: old awlgrip over crazed gelcoat.

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.  Looks like the stack is a layer of grey awlgrip (1995?) over what looks to be a layer of 545, over a layer of white awlgrip over another 545 over white gelcoat (1962).  

Found a reasonable set of removal abrasives, the Festool 36 & 50 grit SAPHIR on the 125 mm ROTEX, with rotary mode in open areas, and RO near edges. Ordered 50 grit GRANAT for the linear sander to clean up edges, will hand sand the concave radius if the concave pad on linear doesn’t cut it. Touched up the topsides in 2005 or so and they are holding up reasonably well  

Question is what sequence to use with current era materials to build back up and finish  

Limitations: can’t spray, (doing in the slip) will be working in sections  

Thinking goes something like this: better ideas welcomed  

  • Remove obsolete deck hardware and handrails, fill holes with epoxy. 
  • sand 36 & 50 grit to remove old AWLGRIP and widen any crazing.
  • 545 as a sealing coat & sand 120-180 
  • spot fill with AWLFAIR LW as needed for gouges, pits, holes etc  sand 80-120  grit 
  • spot prime 545 over AWLFAIR for uniform surface. 
  • AWLQUICK  medium build primer (can brush & roll), light sanding 120, 180, 220 on successive coats  
  • 545 as a marking coat (gray) over AWLQUICK, sand 320
  • 545 as a final primer (white) sand 400, maybe 2nd coat for uniformity.
  • color coats (white & grey nonskid)  AWLGRIP & GRIPTEX  Tip & roll 
  • sand 400-1200 
  • install new handrails. 

Planning to mask for contrasting non skid areas on side & fore decks, cockpit seat/bridge deck and cabin top near mast as last coat. 

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Man, that really seems like a lot of priming coats.

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1 hour ago, fucket said:

Man, that really seems like a lot of priming coats.

Yes it is.

Schedule is based on experience doing topsides, arguably where I will be putting nonskid grit down, I don't necessarily need as perfect a surface. 

The 545 is a very thin layer, and used as the first/last to sandwich any fillers, as it's got excellent adhesion to substrate and provides excellent adhesion to the fairing compound &color coats. 

Since I am using aggressive abrasives to remove old paint and get down to a stable surface, I need to use high build primer +/or fairing compound to get back to  "smooth", as well as fill in the divots that come with 57 yrs of use.  

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Keep it simple, why remove paint thats adhering well? The general rule is dont fix the unbroken, 36 on a glass deck- pretty brutal. 

I would investigate chem strippers heat guns and scrapers if doing on a marina as the biggest issue is dust management.

the gelcoat is your guide, dont gouge it out and keep the fairing to a minimum 

Finish sequence is

after sanding

Fair divots etc with microlight bog of some sort 411?

Paint with epoxy, roll it

repeat above as required

pinholes etc on or after the final undercoat- 3m auto glazing putty

roll and tip finish coat

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2 hours ago, toad said:

Keep it simple, why remove paint thats adhering well? The general rule is dont fix the unbroken, 36 on a glass deck- pretty brutal. 

I would investigate chem strippers heat guns and scrapers if doing on a marina as the biggest issue is dust management.

the gelcoat is your guide, dont gouge it out and keep the fairing to a minimum 

 Finish sequence is

after sanding

Fair divots etc with microlight bog of some sort 411?

Paint with epoxy, roll it

repeat above as required

pinholes etc on or after the final undercoat- 3m auto glazing putty

roll and tip finish coat

Gelcoat is crazed (see title of OP), which has broken the Awlgrip, so that it's not adhering well.... 

It's been "broken" for 20 yrs, finally getting time to refurbish. 

Festool handles the dust extremely well. 

 

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No disrespect but why are you asking for advice? You seem to have the gear and time so crack into it,  the job will teach you the best way forward. Its pretty hard to make a call without seeing it. The best advice might be to motor past the territorial limit and sink the fucker?

ultimately there are many ways to do this, from rough as guts to fine furniture, its all dependent on time and money. If you have the time you can chip away for the next 10 years, if you have the money chuck the professionals your wallet. There is no right way.

Id probably just go sailing snd forget about it, its not going to add value to the boat or make it go faster.

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I'd experiment with the 36 and 50. 36 is going to leave very deep scrapes that you will have to sand with 50 then 80. However with Awlgrip it might need that level of agressive to remove paint that has failed. If the paint is intact I'd leave it. I wouldn't be afraid to leave old paint and end up with a patchwork of varying layers rather than try to remove everything.

I removed moulded in gelcoat with 80 grit on a 30' sailboat. Took some time but after sanding with 80 and then 150 the nonskid areas were flat enough to apply primer and then paint. Gloss areas I only went to 220 then primer. 

So... I really suggest you read Akzo Nobel's guide to the stuff and follow it. 

 

Grind off all old crazed gelcoat and failed paint.

Gouge out the cracks (dremel tool) and fill with an epoxy filler.

Sand to smooth out your fairing compound 80 grit

Fill pinholes & Sand with 80-120

1-2 coats of High Build primer depending on how horrible your surface is. If its OK you can skip the HB. It's just very expensive super light fairing compound.

sand 120-180 

1-2 coats 545

sand 220 (non skid) to 400 (gloss areas)

2-3 coats Awlgrip (2 grey/3 white).

Don't use anything other than the Griptex Coarse except maybe on cockpit seats where it can be a bit rough. A can will do the whole deck.

NO bloody sanding after you've painted with Awlgrip (your last step "sand 400-1200"??)

It's not a buffable paint. If you sand it after painting you've wrecked it. If you want a paint you can compound after painting then use Awlcraft 2000

 

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4 hours ago, Zonker said:

I'd experiment with the 36 and 50. 36 is going to leave very deep scrapes that you will have to sand with 50 then 80. However with Awlgrip it might need that level of agressive to remove paint that has failed. If the paint is intact I'd leave it. I wouldn't be afraid to leave old paint and end up with a patchwork of varying layers rather than try to remove everything.

I removed moulded in gelcoat with 80 grit on a 30' sailboat. Took some time but after sanding with 80 and then 150 the nonskid areas were flat enough to apply primer and then paint. Gloss areas I only went to 220 then primer. 

So... I really suggest you read Akzo Nobel's guide to the stuff and follow it. 

 

Grind off all old crazed gelcoat and failed paint.

Gouge out the cracks (dremel tool) and fill with an epoxy filler.

Sand to smooth out your fairing compound 80 grit

Fill pinholes & Sand with 80-120

1-2 coats of High Build primer depending on how horrible your surface is. If its OK you can skip the HB. It's just very expensive super light fairing compound.

sand 120-180 

1-2 coats 545

sand 220 (non skid) to 400 (gloss areas)

2-3 coats Awlgrip (2 grey/3 white).

Don't use anything other than the Griptex Coarse except maybe on cockpit seats where it can be a bit rough. A can will do the whole deck.

NO bloody sanding after you've painted with Awlgrip (your last step "sand 400-1200"??)

It's not a buffable paint. If you sand it after painting you've wrecked it. If you want a paint you can compound after painting then use Awlcraft 2000

 

This is much more in line with what I would do.

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Good point on not sanding after final color coat, it’s been a few years since I did a big project beyond touching up scrapes. 

The crazing is pervasive enough that dremel routing would be prohibitive, the 50 grit opens up any erodable edges so far.  

Not sure if the 36 (or 40 for linear and detail sanders that is in the mail) will be needed, planned to use it on old nonskid sections, where there is embedded grit. 80 grit was working far slower than my patience tolerated, on the smooth, if need be will go 60. 

I have read Akzo-Nobel guides, hence the 545 first and last protocol, I have no experience with AWLQUICK, hence the questions. Using fairing compound on large sections to fill crazing is one method. Certainly it’s needed for deeper defects.  If higher build works better/faster on horizontal surfaces, leveling due to some flow if properly reduced, as well as intrinsic surface tension that’s a bonus. 

 

As to “Why” it’s a classic boat, that I have “gone sailing” in for more than 15 years, while too busy to do the bigger tasks such as the deck. and it’s time to invest the labor and materials to go for another 20-30 years. 

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11 hours ago, toad said:

Id probably just go sailing snd forget about it, its not going to add value to the boat or make it go faster.

You sound like Bent Strain.

Have you never heard of pride of ownership?

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5 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Good point on not sanding after final color coat, it’s been a few years since I did a big project beyond touching up scrapes. 

The crazing is pervasive enough that dremel routing would be prohibitive, the 50 grit opens up any erodable edges so far.  

Not sure if the 36 (or 40 for linear and detail sanders that is in the mail) will be needed, planned to use it on old nonskid sections, where there is embedded grit. 80 grit was working far slower than my patience tolerated, on the smooth, if need be will go 60.

I have found that 40 grit on a 7" soft pad on a VS sander polisher will strip quickly but not leave super deep scratches. The soft pad will also "auto fair" a deck. A hull will still need long boarding.

40 then 80 will be good for areas to be non-skidded.

Shiny smooth areas will need to continue to 120 and 220.

The final primer on smooth areas should be sanded with 320. I don't see the need for anything finer - it's a boat, not a show car.

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Fill what you can with 3M vinylester before you prime. 

Don't prime 50 grit, prime 80 grit.  60 grit is the sweet spot I like in that it doesn't take much material removal to get to 80 grit. 

Awlquick is not the right choice for filling crazing.  It is very soft, and you need to thin it close to 50% to get it to lay out.  It solvent pops if you let it puddle, so trying to fill defects on a horizontal surfaces gives more pin holes later in the process.  Thin enough coats you can roll two coats in a day.  Thick coats, takes three days for the surface to stop moving.  You can sand something slick as a babies butt if you roll it on unthinned, and on the next sanding after priming with 545... hit a high spot that was dead smooth a few days before.  Don't push it to be high build primer unless you give it time. 

Awlquick is about a third the way from 545 toward high build primer and 545, in that it builds twice as thick per coat as 545 but solvent pops if you try to roll it thick, or not thinned enough.  I normally use half and half T00031 and T0006, thinned 35-50% if I'm rolling.  It excels in rolling small areas, without any thinner, but again... takes two or three days for the solvent to work out.  If you sand it, and it smells like thinner stop sanding because the surface is still moving.   

What I would do, is a layer of 545 applied with a brush and a squeedgee into the open porosity, X it off with the brush, squeedgee the surface after a minute or so to break the surface tension and so that the bubbles over the holes pops, then roll a build coat on.  Then a second.  Then inside the recoat window roll on two full wet coats of ultrabuild.  Then come back and sand that with the same 50 grit.  Once you've got the lions share of porosity and defects filled, you've got a locked down white surface that a will hold a pencil line to do any filling work with awlfair, then... use your awlquick to get up to 220-280 grit and 545 your way out. 

Any bigger defects or slight lows you can dish back to gelcoat, and use 3M vinylester for a spot repair and get back to priming the same day once you are in awlquick.  For small stuff I use a dremel and a carbide burr and dig out a divot and fill them with Awlfair for the small pin holes.  Once you are white with the ultrabuild, it is very easy to see where your defects are and a carbide burr makes it hard to miss.  The big thing is not to have missed spots when you get to awlquick, as awlquick is much softer than awlfair and you get sanding halos around things, with a bright red dot in the middle.  Do that before awlquick, and no dots or shadows in the 545 to see.  Nice.  

Awlfair is a lot easier to cover if you buzz it over with 180-220 grit before awlquick.  It'll show you any feather edge issues and make it a little bit lower and harder to hit later on.  Gist is, don't spot prime high spots... so make your red filling, a little bit low and you won't burn through on dark colors.

80 grit awlfair you can sand off a coat with roller stipple and still feel scratches in awlquick.  You can't feel 80 grit scratches, in a coat of awlquick, covered with awlquick.  Tis the nature of things.  Don't leave 80 grit until you've got a coat that is evenly yellow with no surface defects.  I like 3M dry guide coat.  You can refill with west graphite powder, but the red rubber nipple top works well as an applicator.  A 16 inch short board with 3M green production 80 grit is handy for cabin sides.  A few passes makes a big difference over any awlfair fills. Otherwise you can have a game of never ending high spots that turn pink when sanded. 

Once you have the surface yellow, you can put on 3-4 coats of 545, you won't burn through in a single easy sanding. 

If you put on 2 coats of 545 and burn through both times you still have to put on two more coats of 545... not to burn through.  The roller stipple takes a lot of material to sand off, so just keep adding material until you are in the clear and you'll sand out easier.   

It is the nature of things, as a 2 mil build won't let you cut with a sandpaper that takes 2 mils of cut...  Go around and put on 3-4 at the first go, and you have a lot higher success than doing two.  You can use red scotchbrite or a soft interface pad with 320 grit in between coats just to take most of the shine off if you want... but just doing a crack of dawn rolling once the dew breaks, and another at 11... and another at 3... and another right before sun down can get you salvation if you make a day of it.  Grab some T0006 and play with it.  Thin enough coats, can get you moving quicker to build... once you go finger print dry it may as well be sprayed.  It doesn't have to level so long as your base in awlquick is straight, it just has to get a mil thickness thick enough to stay inside the scratch depth of your paper.     

I have no problem using Awlquick, and use it like it has an expiration date... I've got a 2.8 gallon pressure pot, with 30 foot hoses so it is nothing to spool up 6 or 8 kits of it in a day...  but it's main claim to fame, is the ability to spray 4-5 coats and put a 10-12 mils on in a day that is all yellow.  Sands easy, and is easily covered by white 545.  Just know that the caveat is, that it isn't high build primer, and it is softer than the surrounding materials so you can't get a clean sand unless your are burning through to 545 into awlquick and no other color than... yellow. 

Don't use the gray 545 as a sanding guide, as any low defects missed will be black spots.  Your surface temp out doors on gray is extreme, so your working time to cover will rip the roller fuzz off. 

For pin holes in 545, get some evercoat ultrasmooth, and blue hardener.  A pint should do a dozen boats, apply it with a box cutter blade.  

I'd consider using Interlux 2000 for the non-skid walking surfaces just because you can make time with that product to build up.  Awlfair is sweet to work with, but any time you can roll a coat and float up an even surface it makes time.  I don't have a problem using west 407 on decks under nonskid, it's not any cheaper than awlfair at wholesale, but if you are paying retail works out less per mixed volume.  I don't like 407 for the gloss bits, as the different hardness of different batches is difficult for folks that want to leave 40 grit quickly.  40 grit fair, and 40 grit flat, is flat.  Doesn't much matter how hard something is, if it reads flat, it is flat.  80 grit on a DA with two different hardness side by side will tell you damn lies.  Two week old 407, and yesterdays 407 side by side don't sand the same.      

For the overly pendantic working different grades and brands of sandpaper: 

I like p400 grit working up to edge lines and fillets in 545, just because it cuts a little bit less fast than p320 grit.  Do be aware that any wet-dry paper you pick up has a different grading scale in the US than imported paper, so if you are working a cami paper on the DA, and hand sanding P-graded, the P graded paper will be s you can be coarser than you want.  Same number but the P-weight paper is coarser...  Meaning P320 is coarser than Cami 320, and closer to 280 grit.  So one has 320 grit and the other has 400 grit to be the same scratch depth/grit size.

Shooting hand sanded stuff that is a cami 280 grit, and because it isn't P400 grit, makes for a very visible difference if you DA everything else out with cami 320.  Hand sanding with cami 320, and DA'ing 320 beside it the hand sanded area will look flatter in color, so hand sand 400 cami, into 320 DA and you get about the same color.

Red scotchbrite can make a difference over your hand sanded areas, as it is p320, but has a randomizing effect to scratch pattern.  On outside corners you can trap a piece of it under your DA, and rub it around at random and make some time without burning through.  Really helpful if your surfaces are long boarded true...  Once things are flat enough, any material removal is asking for the whole pad to take an even cut... so only the stipple burns off.  

That doesn't really make a spit difference if you don't mind putting on four coats of top coat, but if you are aiming to get done in two or three, it can be huge.  Normally the fillets are what show the biggest issue.  Straight lines in the middle of a curve may as well have a dash of flattening agent in them. 

Cheers,

Zach

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12 hours ago, toad said:

No disrespect but why are you asking for advice? You seem to have the gear and time so crack into it,  the job will teach you the best way forward. Its pretty hard to make a call without seeing it. The best advice might be to motor past the territorial limit and sink the fucker?

ultimately there are many ways to do this, from rough as guts to fine furniture, its all dependent on time and money. If you have the time you can chip away for the next 10 years, if you have the money chuck the professionals your wallet. There is no right way.

Id probably just go sailing snd forget about it, its not going to add value to the boat or make it go faster.

because you gain valuable tidbits like '

Quote

It's not a buffable paint. If you sand it after painting you've wrecked it. If you want a paint you can compound after painting then use Awlcraft 2000

 

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I have found that 40 grit on a 7" soft pad on a VS sander polisher will strip quickly but not leave super deep scratches. The soft pad will also "auto fair" a deck. A hull will still need long boarding.

40 then 80 will be good for areas to be non-skidded.

Shiny smooth areas will need to continue to 120 and 220.

The final primer on smooth areas should be sanded with 320. I don't see the need for anything finer - it's a boat, not a show car.

its a boat true, but with respect to it's heritage, it deserves the "show car" finish... 

 

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3 hours ago, Zach said:

Fill what you can with 3M vinylester before you prime. 

Don't prime 50 grit, prime 80 grit.  60 grit is the sweet spot I like in that it doesn't take much material removal to get to 80 grit. 

Awlquick is not the right choice for filling crazing.  It is very soft, and you need to thin it close to 50% to get it to lay out.  It solvent pops if you let it puddle, so trying to fill defects on a horizontal surfaces gives more pin holes later in the process.  Thin enough coats you can roll two coats in a day.  Thick coats, takes three days for the surface to stop moving.  You can sand something slick as a babies butt if you roll it on unthinned, and on the next sanding after priming with 545... hit a high spot that was dead smooth a few days before.  Don't push it to be high build primer unless you give it time. 

Awlquick is about a third the way from 545 toward high build primer and 545, in that it builds twice as thick per coat as 545 but solvent pops if you try to roll it thick, or not thinned enough.  I normally use half and half T00031 and T0006, thinned 35-50% if I'm rolling.  It excels in rolling small areas, without any thinner, but again... takes two or three days for the solvent to work out.  If you sand it, and it smells like thinner stop sanding because the surface is still moving.   

What I would do, is a layer of 545 applied with a brush and a squeedgee into the open porosity, X it off with the brush, squeedgee the surface after a minute or so to break the surface tension and so that the bubbles over the holes pops, then roll a build coat on.  Then a second.  Then inside the recoat window roll on two full wet coats of ultrabuild.  Then come back and sand that with the same 50 grit.  Once you've got the lions share of porosity and defects filled, you've got a locked down white surface that a will hold a pencil line to do any filling work with awlfair, then... use your awlquick to get up to 220-280 grit and 545 your way out. 

Any bigger defects or slight lows you can dish back to gelcoat, and use 3M vinylester for a spot repair and get back to priming the same day once you are in awlquick.  For small stuff I use a dremel and a carbide burr and dig out a divot and fill them with Awlfair for the small pin holes.  Once you are white with the ultrabuild, it is very easy to see where your defects are and a carbide burr makes it hard to miss.  The big thing is not to have missed spots when you get to awlquick, as awlquick is much softer than awlfair and you get sanding halos around things, with a bright red dot in the middle.  Do that before awlquick, and no dots or shadows in the 545 to see.  Nice.  

Awlfair is a lot easier to cover if you buzz it over with 180-220 grit before awlquick.  It'll show you any feather edge issues and make it a little bit lower and harder to hit later on.  Gist is, don't spot prime high spots... so make your red filling, a little bit low and you won't burn through on dark colors.

80 grit awlfair you can sand off a coat with roller stipple and still feel scratches in awlquick.  You can't feel 80 grit scratches, in a coat of awlquick, covered with awlquick.  Tis the nature of things.  Don't leave 80 grit until you've got a coat that is evenly yellow with no surface defects.  I like 3M dry guide coat.  You can refill with west graphite powder, but the red rubber nipple top works well as an applicator.  A 16 inch short board with 3M green production 80 grit is handy for cabin sides.  A few passes makes a big difference over any awlfair fills. Otherwise you can have a game of never ending high spots that turn pink when sanded. 

Once you have the surface yellow, you can put on 3-4 coats of 545, you won't burn through in a single easy sanding. 

If you put on 2 coats of 545 and burn through both times you still have to put on two more coats of 545... not to burn through.  The roller stipple takes a lot of material to sand off, so just keep adding material until you are in the clear and you'll sand out easier.   

It is the nature of things, as a 2 mil build won't let you cut with a sandpaper that takes 2 mils of cut...  Go around and put on 3-4 at the first go, and you have a lot higher success than doing two.  You can use red scotchbrite or a soft interface pad with 320 grit in between coats just to take most of the shine off if you want... but just doing a crack of dawn rolling once the dew breaks, and another at 11... and another at 3... and another right before sun down can get you salvation if you make a day of it.  Grab some T0006 and play with it.  Thin enough coats, can get you moving quicker to build... once you go finger print dry it may as well be sprayed.  It doesn't have to level so long as your base in awlquick is straight, it just has to get a mil thickness thick enough to stay inside the scratch depth of your paper.     

I have no problem using Awlquick, and use it like it has an expiration date... I've got a 2.8 gallon pressure pot, with 30 foot hoses so it is nothing to spool up 6 or 8 kits of it in a day...  but it's main claim to fame, is the ability to spray 4-5 coats and put a 10-12 mils on in a day that is all yellow.  Sands easy, and is easily covered by white 545.  Just know that the caveat is, that it isn't high build primer, and it is softer than the surrounding materials so you can't get a clean sand unless your are burning through to 545 into awlquick and no other color than... yellow. 

Don't use the gray 545 as a sanding guide, as any low defects missed will be black spots.  Your surface temp out doors on gray is extreme, so your working time to cover will rip the roller fuzz off. 

For pin holes in 545, get some evercoat ultrasmooth, and blue hardener.  A pint should do a dozen boats, apply it with a box cutter blade.  

I'd consider using Interlux 2000 for the non-skid walking surfaces just because you can make time with that product to build up.  Awlfair is sweet to work with, but any time you can roll a coat and float up an even surface it makes time.  I don't have a problem using west 407 on decks under nonskid, it's not any cheaper than awlfair at wholesale, but if you are paying retail works out less per mixed volume.  I don't like 407 for the gloss bits, as the different hardness of different batches is difficult for folks that want to leave 40 grit quickly.  40 grit fair, and 40 grit flat, is flat.  Doesn't much matter how hard something is, if it reads flat, it is flat.  80 grit on a DA with two different hardness side by side will tell you damn lies.  Two week old 407, and yesterdays 407 side by side don't sand the same.      

For the overly pendantic working different grades and brands of sandpaper: 

I like p400 grit working up to edge lines and fillets in 545, just because it cuts a little bit less fast than p320 grit.  Do be aware that any wet-dry paper you pick up has a different grading scale in the US than imported paper, so if you are working a cami paper on the DA, and hand sanding P-graded, the P graded paper will be s you can be coarser than you want.  Same number but the P-weight paper is coarser...  Meaning P320 is coarser than Cami 320, and closer to 280 grit.  So one has 320 grit and the other has 400 grit to be the same scratch depth/grit size.

Shooting hand sanded stuff that is a cami 280 grit, and because it isn't P400 grit, makes for a very visible difference if you DA everything else out with cami 320.  Hand sanding with cami 320, and DA'ing 320 beside it the hand sanded area will look flatter in color, so hand sand 400 cami, into 320 DA and you get about the same color.

Red scotchbrite can make a difference over your hand sanded areas, as it is p320, but has a randomizing effect to scratch pattern.  On outside corners you can trap a piece of it under your DA, and rub it around at random and make some time without burning through.  Really helpful if your surfaces are long boarded true...  Once things are flat enough, any material removal is asking for the whole pad to take an even cut... so only the stipple burns off.  

That doesn't really make a spit difference if you don't mind putting on four coats of top coat, but if you are aiming to get done in two or three, it can be huge.  Normally the fillets are what show the biggest issue.  Straight lines in the middle of a curve may as well have a dash of flattening agent in them. 

Cheers,

Zach

Thanks!  Lot to digest, but exactly the kind of detailed suggestions I was looking for. 

Won't add up the number of primer coats above, it's sort of like varnish, it's done when it's done, and an extra coat or three is noticeable. Last time I was up in SW Harbor, 2004 or 5, the maintenance guys asked me if I could leave Lioness over the winter so they could "make her right". Their ball park then was $30k, so a dozen coats of AWLGRIP primers is not sticker shock. 

Popped for the Festool RS2E half sheet sander, it's not a long board, but at 4.5x9" pad it's the next best, have not found an electric longboard and a compressor would be too loud, unless I went out and worked at anchor with a genset and a compressor... 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

its a boat true, but with respect to it's heritage, it deserves the "show car" finish...

So you plan to put in 400 hours wet sanding to 1000 grit?

A mirror finish on a boat deck is pointless - people are going to walk on it, drop winch handles, drag headboards across it etc.

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17 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

So you plan to put in 400 hours wet sanding to 1000 grit?

A mirror finish on a boat deck is pointless - people are going to walk on it, drop winch handles, drag headboards across it etc.

nope, just willing to sand the last primer and ( last -1 ) nonskid color coat to 400 or better.

On my topsides, back in 2005, I did use the 2000 Grit foam pads and they put on an acceptable level of gloss that covered the relatively poorer preparation of the under coats. (learning experience, and the joys of tip and roll next to a dirt road...) 

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

You sound like Bent Strain.

Have you never heard of pride of ownership?

Have you heard of OCD anal retentive disorder?

No?

One of the symptoms is struggling to work out how to sand a deck without asking the entire internet for support despite stating in microscopic detail on a 20 point plan how you intend to do the job.

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2 hours ago, toad said:

Have you heard of OCD anal retentive disorder?

I'm a Virgo so fuck you!

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4 hours ago, toad said:

Have you heard of OCD anal retentive disorder?

No?

One of the symptoms is struggling to work out how to sand a deck without asking the entire internet for support despite stating in microscopic detail on a 20 point plan how you intend to do the job.

Having a proposed plan, and asking for better ideas, is a tad less than asking the entire internet for support. There are folks here who work with these materials doing similar jobs on a frequent basis, I do so every decade or so, and have not previously had to remove a severely weathered film on a deck. 

I’m not ashamed to ask if there’s a better way to go, that my ignorance is blind too. 

Fortunately several folks were kind enough to share their wisdom. 

You seem offended, what’s your concern ? Did I divert bandwidth or attention from you? Or is your comment about anal retentive disorder a confession, for which we should excuse your boorish comments ? 

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I don't know you from a bar of soap but why do you keep asking for advice on straightforward tasks and go about it by offering up complex solutions for general approval first? It pretty obvious you already know what to do so I'll bet there's a big chance you wont be following anyone's advice except your own when you get around to fairing and painting your deck, which btw (dont tell anyone) is not that hard... every paint manufacturer has guide and the process is simple with a capital S.  

 Good luck and let us know how you get on with Zachs atomic analysis of deck painting and be sure to post some pics when you get to 2000# 

 

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Ball park: $ 30,000.  You have pulled all hardware off incl stancions ? Of course you have wooded all the varnish before starting the re paint and have  6-8 fresh coats on ?  That’s another $ 8-12,000. Re chrome too ?  Nothing worse than putting fucked up hardware back on a first rate re paint. 1962 build, how many fasteners are rusting out and bleeding through the toe rail ? 

Signed,

a pro who has managed the care and feeding of a number of  Hinckleys, incl a B 40 of that vintage 

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20 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

its a boat true, but with respect to it's heritage, it deserves the "show car" finish... 

  

A “show car” finish  is a LOT more that just a nice paint job. 

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I know it Al Paca.  I've got 14 bent up stanchions and bases sitting in my shed, and I'm eyeballing the not so unsubstantial cost to buy a new matched set once I'm finished up.  A stack of boat bills a 1/4 inch thick doesn't go very far on new stainless and deck hardware.        

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2 hours ago, Al Paca said:

 Re chrome too ?  Nothing worse than putting fucked up hardware back on a first rate re paint.

Chrome has no place on a boat IMO.

Cheap chrome will pit very quickly

Good chrome will last a few years before pitting.

S/S is the only thing to use on a boat if you want shiny bits.

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I've always been an epoxy guy but I'm quite intrigued (from a recoat time perspective) of using 3m vinylester fairing compound to fair a deck. The problem I see is that the instructions say it won't stick to epoxy and I've got a ton of holes in my deck plugged with epoxy.

So is there a way to overcoat the epoxy plugs with something that the vinylester would stick to while still maintaining the quick recoat benefits of the 3m filler? Or am I basically better off just going with epoxy fairing compound?

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2 hours ago, Al Paca said:

Ball park: $ 30,000.  You have pulled all hardware off incl stancions ? Of course you have wooded all the varnish before starting the re paint and have  6-8 fresh coats on ?  That’s another $ 8-12,000. Re chrome too ?  Nothing worse than putting fucked up hardware back on a first rate re paint. 1962 build, how many fasteners are rusting out and bleeding through the toe rail ? 

Signed,

a pro who has managed the care and feeding of a number of  Hinckleys, incl a B 40 of that vintage 

The fasteners in my toe rail are all bronze, not sure where you found rusty ones.

All deck hardware is either SS or bronze as well, except perhaps,  the water/fuel filler caps may be chrome plated bronze. Only rust I have found so far is the bracket for the 8" edson pump mounted below the cabin floor and the old motor mounts. 

Since this is being done in the slip, the stanchions, pulpits, windlass and deck cleats are being worked around. Not by choice, but necessity, of having no alternative that's feasible.  

Varnish will be done after the deck, as I expect that my control of the sander & paint will be such that I'd rather do it first, and the wood last. 

Had I left the boat in Baddeck, Cape Breton, NS over the winter of 2004, all would have been done,  as you describe,  inside of a nice warm shed, at $12/hr but that wasn't to be due to other factors. 

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Hmm, if the gelcoat is crazing, and all the way through fairing and paint, is there any way to know it's now stable? Would be awful to do this, then have the gelcoat continue to fail.

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On 6/20/2019 at 1:29 PM, Raz'r said:

Hmm, if the gelcoat is crazing, and all the way through fairing and paint, is there any way to know it's now stable? Would be awful to do this, then have the gelcoat continue to fail.

That's the fundamental question/bet. The crazing is generally concentrated at stressed points, and has been pretty much unchanged over 15 yrs.and not that bad randomly in larger areas. One alternative would be to peel it, with a planer, and put on a fresh layer of mat and then fair it up. I'm evaluating the effect of heavy sanding, to widen the crazing. May have to bevel with a dremel as suggested, may find that it reappears later, though on the topsides, where there were some crazes they have not re-appeared in > 15 yrs

 

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Have you never heard of pride of ownership?

Have you never heard that of the Seven Deadly Sins, pride is considered to be the path to all others, and for good reason ...
 

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On 6/23/2019 at 12:47 AM, LionessRacing said:

That's the fundamental question/bet. The crazing is generally concentrated at stressed points, and has been pretty much unchanged over 15 yrs.and not that bad randomly in larger areas. One alternative would be to peel it, with a planer, and put on a fresh layer of mat and then fair it up. I'm evaluating the effect of heavy sanding, to widen the crazing. May have to bevel with a dremel as suggested, may find that it reappears later, though on the topsides, where there were some crazes they have not re-appeared in > 15 yrs

 

Shoot some pictures.

I just got done gel coating a cabin top, after laying a layer of veil mat and filling lows with offcuts, grinding with a 7 inch and 36 grit... pad sanding with 8 inch 40 grit.  DA with 60...  
You can't really do that anywhere near by hardware attached to the deck, it's not all that hard, just a lot of work for a guy with the occasional carpal tunnel flare up.  Catch is that it helps if you've got a shed full of burned up grinders.  Grinding the sticky off is a heavy touch, floating it out is a light touch... pad sanding a heavy touch.  DA a light touch.  Then once you can see "it" long boarding with 40 hard enough to see the high, pad sand down til they aren't... with 40 once again.  The gel fills the pin holes, but if you are rolling it, it's a 2-3-4 coat process before you add wax, and then tomorrow I've still got a fair bit of acetone wiping and heavy sanding to get back to where I see veil in the high spots.  Straight glass work, is straight paint work.  Veil and Gelcoat is a cheap/fast filler...  but it is harder work than any other option.  

If you have localized issues, then it is a much smaller job than my earlier post about fairing and  paint work, and i'd be in the camp of spot repairing and getting a good 545 surface built up where it needs to be.  Then patching in your top coat and getting a look that the gloss surfaces look good, less the patch.... Then buzz out everything, fix the dings, and roll some fresh top coat over it. 

 

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Got to the High Build today over 545 put down on Sunday.

Light sand 220 on half sheet sander to knockdown stipple and take out a few. drips and runs. 

Opened the high build quarts and both components were settled. Almost didn’t notice Converter looked like old school peanut butter, clear over precipitated solids, as 545 converter does not have solids.  Couldn’t get decent stirring with “paint sticks” and didn’t have filter cones so ended with bit of a mess to sand due to “chunks”.

Side trip to Harbor freight for a can shaker before resuming. 

Will take photos when that is rectified. 

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Be careful of the chunks if you overcoat what you've got...  anywhere you sand over and the paper still loads up, is more uncatalyzed stuff than not.  In that if the it has only dried out/solvent evaporated, and even in real thin film have a tendency to lift down the line.  I'd sand down til you can see through it, take a sopping wet rag with T0006 and make sure that what you leave doesn't lift color onto the rag.  Normally it's the bottom of the mix cup, so where ever you did last or left thickest shows any chunks.

I use fiberglass window screen for a first pass filter, on sprayable and highbuild, though for small quantities you normally can get away with a filter cone with a few cuts in the mesh and stirring highbuild mostly through the mesh, picking out the chunks as you go.  Bit of a pain...

Had a guy working for me for a while that liked rolling sprayable fairing compound and did a side of a boat, strained it through a 5 gallon bucket grid... with rather predictable results as far as the chunks go.  End up with little white dots and holidays that are uncatalyzed and spend half a day changing paper on long boards loading up the grit.  "did you filter it?"  Of course...  "What did you use..."  Holds up something you can drop gravel through.  

 

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