SloopJonB

Cost Of Custom Race Boats

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This is directed at the members who work or have worked in the industry.

I'm currently restoring an old full race 1/2 Tonner. It was custom designed & built pretty high tech for the early 80's - bagged foam core, titanium chains & rudder shaft, carbon & foam tiller, custom noodle spar, Harken roller hardware and so forth.

I'm curious what doing something like that would cost nowadays. I know it would be solidly into 6 figures but I'm hoping someone here can get it a bit more specific.

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What size, build spec, etc...? Basically a copy of what you have? Or the modern equivalent, which won't be the same.

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What I have - a 6000 Lb pure race boat - no interior to speak of etc.

Not a 30' current sport boat.

Bagged polyester & E-glass over varying density foam - heavier in the hardware areas - nothing exotic like carbon or Kevlar fabric or epoxy.

I'm not looking for a builders quote level of accuracy, just some sort of current ballpark number.

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So, 6,000 lbs will put you in the 33 to 35 ish foot range. To be honest, carbon isn't super exotic,  but there is a little saved not using it.

 

Being a custom one off, 350-450k is ball park. 

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I inquired about this sort of thing a few weeks ago, but asked the designer directly.  They said the sub-30 foot racer-cruiser I was asking about would be anywhere between $60 and $100k depending on what country it was built in.  I'm assuming $100k in the States and $60 in Asia.  

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I'm pretty sure it couldn't be done here for sub $100K - it'll need $40K of sails alone.

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0.5M ?  WAG because when I was designing those sorts of boats I didn't know about the cost. Really depends on the builder and build country too. (i.e. Spain is cheaper labour than UK or US)

When a Beneteau 36.7 is about $200K you can't imagine a custom boat being less than ~2x even though the Beneteau has a nice interior, it also has huge buying power so the company is buying fittings, engines, masts, etc etc. Molds are amortized over hundred boats, interior is all CNC cut

With a custom boat you have a nice design fee to the NA, then cost of building a plug, and fairing the outside hulls. Lots of fiddly little custom composite fittings these days are expected at this level. Hardware is of higher quality and cost, carbon mast is a given. 

 

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

This is directed at the members who work or have worked in the industry.

I'm currently restoring an old full race 1/2 Tonner. It was custom designed & built pretty high tech for the early 80's - bagged foam core, titanium chains & rudder shaft, carbon & foam tiller, custom noodle spar, Harken roller hardware and so forth.

I'm curious what doing something like that would cost nowadays. I know it would be solidly into 6 figures but I'm hoping someone here can get it a bit more specific.

Twice as much and twice as long..

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29 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I'm pretty sure it couldn't be done here for sub $100K - it'll need $40K of sails alone.

That might be the cost of the hull only. Mast, fittings, instruments and any interior would be extra.

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Odd question, why would you rebuild an old design ?  Is this purely hypothetical ?

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25 minutes ago, BravoBravo said:

Odd question, why would you rebuild an old design ?  Is this purely hypothetical ?

Seems to be a thing with billionaires and J-Class boats.

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2 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

Seems to be a thing with billionaires and J-Class boats.

Well if SJB was or had either he wouldn’t be asking 

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1 hour ago, BravoBravo said:

Odd question, why would you rebuild an old design ?  Is this purely hypothetical ?

Exactly.

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No less than $400-500k for a new build of  a Half Tonner....and likely more!

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10 minutes ago, Veeger said:

No less than $400-500k for a new build of  a Half Tonner....and likely more!

I’m available for that number 

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1 minute ago, BravoBravo said:

I’m available for that number 

 

Sloop John B will want to talk to you then.

Alas... it's not a Half Tonner that I want....

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I owned a Ranger 26 I took in trade for a  race boat I was selling and really enjoyed that boat until I sold it   I’ve often fantasied about building those lines with modern materials, bulb keel and carbon spars... That was a sweet sailing little boat and fast in it’s day. I would be even better as I described 

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It seems pretty clear to me that this was a hypothetical question. Our sport doesn't currently have an equivalent to the frequently iterating custom designs in the quarter and half ton size range. When I think about custom race boats now I immediately assume millions of $, but how many 30' custom race boats built today don't have canting keels, foils, and lots of fiddly composite fittings?

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For reference, in 1981, the price of a bare hull Serendipity 43 was 125K.  A limited run where the plug was amortized over a number of boats.  

SJB, who designed your project boat?   I love the half ton boats.

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The c&c 30 one design was $137k 4 years ago

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18 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

This is directed at the members who work or have worked in the industry.

I'm currently restoring an old full race 1/2 Tonner. It was custom designed & built pretty high tech for the early 80's - bagged foam core, titanium chains & rudder shaft, carbon & foam tiller, custom noodle spar, Harken roller hardware and so forth.

I'm curious what doing something like that would cost nowadays. I know it would be solidly into 6 figures but I'm hoping someone here can get it a bit more specific.

SloopJonB,

 

To build a 30 footer custom with a carbon rig and basic sails I can see $100k + just in materials and labor and transport on top of that. So a 30 footer would cost you $250-$350 and would take 12-16 weeks at best with a good team.

 

pulpit

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9 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

For reference, in 1981, the price of a bare hull Serendipity 43 was 125K.  A limited run where the plug was amortized over a number of boats.  

SJB, who designed your project boat?   I love the half ton boats.

Nelson/Marek

I agree about the 1/2 Tonners. Years ago Ted Brewer said he thought they were the ideal size for a race boat - small enough to be handled by a small crew but big enough to take some weather. Seemed very logical.

I loved my old 1/4 Tonner but it came up short on the weather component.

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48 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Nelson/Marek

I agree about the 1/2 Tonners. Years ago Ted Brewer said he thought they were the ideal size for a race boat - small enough to be handled by a small crew but big enough to take some weather. Seemed very logical.

I loved my old 1/4 Tonner but it came up short on the weather component.

Agree completely but on the Lakes, G&S cleaned up with the 1/2 tonners.  Peterson had a 1/2 tonner that it took overnight races to beat.  

Would love to see your work if I get to Seattle.  Stay offline and grind/sand/prime/paint.  :D

Had a Mull 32 1/2 tonner in Detroit that didn't lose a buoy race all summer.  That would have been '76.  The G&S boats were more like '81 or so.  

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Used to sail on a H/T that was, when new, the most expensive boat ever built per ft. Awesome boat.

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On 6/20/2019 at 3:50 AM, SloopJonB said:

I'm pretty sure it couldn't be done here for sub $100K - it'll need $40K of sails alone.

What the hell sort of sails are you putting on a 30 footer... 3 carbon jibs, code 0, carbon main, and a couple kites? 

On 6/20/2019 at 8:37 PM, pulpit said:

SloopJonB,

 

To build a 30 footer custom with a carbon rig and basic sails I can see $100k + just in materials and labor and transport on top of that. So a 30 footer would cost you $250-$350 and would take 12-16 weeks at best with a good team.

 

pulpit

What would you guess for lower tech, glass vinyl foam hull with alloy rig material cost? I am assuming you are saying carbon nomex hull with carbon rig material cost for 30'er is 100k?...

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I don't think I'd get much change from $10K for a carbon main - it's a frac rig with a very big main.

I spoke to the original owner a while back and he had $40K in sails back in the days of Kevlar.

Main

Light & heavy 150's

3 smaller jibs

0.6, 0.75 and 1.2 Kites

Probably average out to $4K each even in Dacron assuming current construction styles (not just crosscut).

Maybe things are more expensive here - yards charge $100/hour and it takes a few hours to build a boat from scratch. ;)

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On 6/20/2019 at 7:59 AM, Cal20sailor said:

Had a Mull 32 1/2 tonner in Detroit that didn't lose a buoy race all summer.  That would have been '76.  The G&S boats were more like '81 or so.  

Was that Hot Flash, the bright finished Gougeon built boat?

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36 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Was that Hot Flash, the bright finished Gougeon built boat?

Hot Flash.   Beautiful boat.  

Edit:  I feel very fortunate to have sailed multis and meet Jan and Meade.  Humble doesn't start given their accomplishments and their workmanship (the whole place but they led) was crazy good.  We in the sailing community are worse from their passing.  

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39 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I don't think I'd get much change from $10K for a carbon main - it's a frac rig with a very big main.

I spoke to the original owner a while back and he had $40K in sails back in the days of Kevlar.

Main

Light & heavy 150's

3 smaller jibs

0.6, 0.75 and 1.2 Kites

Probably average out to $4K each even in Dacron assuming current construction styles (not just crosscut).

Maybe things are more expensive here - yards charge $100/hour and it takes a few hours to build a boat from scratch. ;)

Let’s see some sailing pics... last photo it was on the hard and it looked like you were living in it ;-)

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2 minutes ago, BravoBravo said:

Let’s see some sailing pics... last photo it was on the hard and it looked like you were living in it ;-)

He's lucky, I'm living in a van down by the river.  

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On 20 June 2019 at 10:37 PM, pulpit said:

SloopJonB,

 

To build a 30 footer custom with a carbon rig and basic sails I can see $100k + just in materials and labor and transport on top of that. So a 30 footer would cost you $250-$350 and would take 12-16 weeks at best with a good team.

 

pulpit

8 hours ago, darth reapius said:

What would you guess for lower tech, glass vinyl foam hull with alloy rig material cost? I am assuming you are saying carbon nomex hull with carbon rig material cost for 30'er is 100k?...

darth reapius

So how basic do you want to go ?

A alloy rig is still going to cost you $10-15K rigged ready to use and the carbon rig gives better performance.

The difference in cost for the resin is not that great and the benefits of using a better resin out weights the cost Polyester resin $4 kg, Vinyl ester resin $8 kg,  Epoxy Resin is about $16 kg when you are buying in bulk. At bear minimum I would build in Vinyl ester.

Low tech glass will save you money, the thing is you need more of it to get the same stiffness and strength. Woven glass DB/ Tri / Uni are all about $12-15 per /m and carbon is any wear from $25 - 50 per/m when buying in bulk

Now lets look at your motor, are we inboard or outboard ?  A inboard will cost you $12 -15k or a outboard is $2k. Yes I save money and weight with a outboard it can limit the races I can do.

Sails ? I can save money on sails and go low tech to save $$$$$$, the thing is it's my engine

 

darth, If I've just dropped big $$$$ into a new one off boat then i want the best boat I can afford with the best gear, otherwise I should of just bought a good secondhand boat. One off boats are not cheap and you can't compete with a production boat builder and what they build boats for. 

 

Mate, the only way you are going to save $$$$$$ on a new One Off boat is to home build it yourself with a few mates, The trade off is ? It will take longer to build.

 

pulpit

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6 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

Hot Flash.   Beautiful boat.  

Edit:  I feel very fortunate to have sailed multis and meet Jan and Meade.  Humble doesn't start given their accomplishments and their workmanship (the whole place but they led) was crazy good.  We in the sailing community are worse from their passing.  

That was one of the sexiest boats ever - bright finish and that extreme stinger stern Mull liked so much.

When I bought my first edition of their book at the Port Townsend festival I was desperate to build one for myself but there was never enough time, money, space, tools etc. etc.

Had to remain a dream.

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6 hours ago, BravoBravo said:

Let’s see some sailing pics... last photo it was on the hard and it looked like you were living in it ;-)

It's not in action yet - two steps forward, one step back. Now the starter won't fire - I think it's the battery switch. My son & I did some hardware mounting today but that's likely the last work on it for a bit - I have another retaining wall to build and then a garden shed....and my left thumb feels like it's gone on strike so maybe not even those for a while. :D

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5 hours ago, pulpit said:

 

darth reapius

So how basic do you want to go ?

Great response, I've been really trying to mull around all the different cost saving methods Vs the trade offs.

Honestly close to race spec without spending triple the money for an extra 2 knots downwind sorta thing.

Carbon rig is a good point, I was curious to hear your opinion there. It's one thats always racked my brain, cost of the spar vs the performace/weight aloft.

 The resin is a tough one, I would happily roll with epoxy, but my allergy to epoxy has grown ever worse over the last couple home builds I have done. So I would lean to Vinyl. Polyester is an absolute no (I'm not a monster).

I'd also be sensible with sails, very consistent heavy conditions here. Nice main, nice 2, small kite. Take the hit on light days and look into expanding the inventory as time proceeds. 

The engine note is an incredibly tough one. Absolutely no idea there, but yeah I've run seen costs from 2k to 20k with everything from outboard to inboard to electric.

The thing I'll say on how far to go with a build... I don't want to go too far again, blow too much money and be too much faster than the next boat that we're just sailing alone. We made that mistake before and the racing got stale and I moved back into one design boats. So showing up at a club race here with a Fast 40+ is getting a little pointless IMO.

But yes, I should have said before, this is for the next home build project, been 18 months since the last one finished and I'm getting those post build blues and I've been brain storming a suitable new project which is at a good cost effective/fast boat crossover point. Some thing in the middle between an I550 and a fast 40+.

Great club racer/regatta boat which could be slept on over night and not be like a C&C 30 inside, but also not be silly heavy like the cruiser/racers.

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6 hours ago, pulpit said:

 

darth reapius

So how basic do you want to go ?

 

49 minutes ago, darth reapius said:

Great response, I've been really trying to mull around all the different cost saving methods Vs the trade offs.

Honestly close to race spec without spending triple the money for an extra 2 knots downwind sorta thing.

Carbon rig is a good point, I was curious to hear your opinion there. It's one thats always racked my brain, cost of the spar vs the performace/weight aloft.

 The resin is a tough one, I would happily roll with epoxy, but my allergy to epoxy has grown ever worse over the last couple home builds I have done. So I would lean to Vinyl. Polyester is an absolute no (I'm not a monster).

I'd also be sensible with sails, very consistent heavy conditions here. Nice main, nice 2, small kite. Take the hit on light days and look into expanding the inventory as time proceeds. 

The engine note is an incredibly tough one. Absolutely no idea there, but yeah I've run seen costs from 2k to 20k with everything from outboard to inboard to electric.

The thing I'll say on how far to go with a build... I don't want to go too far again, blow too much money and be too much faster than the next boat that we're just sailing alone. We made that mistake before and the racing got stale and I moved back into one design boats. So showing up at a club race here with a Fast 40+ is getting a little pointless IMO.

But yes, I should have said before, this is for the next home build project, been 18 months since the last one finished and I'm getting those post build blues and I've been brain storming a suitable new project which is at a good cost effective/fast boat crossover point. Some thing in the middle between an I550 and a fast 40+.

Great club racer/regatta boat which could be slept on over night and not be like a C&C 30 inside, but also not be silly heavy like the cruiser/racers.

So darth,

 

Were are you Sailing out of ?

A interesting option to think about is why noy buy a good second hand boat for the parts and build a new hull and use the parts off the second hand boat ?

 

The hull and deck are the cheapest part of the build and this way you could sail the donor boat until the new hull and deck are built and then change the parts over to the new boat and sell the old hull and deck off. I’ve seen Farr 30’s for under $50k and a great Thompson 28 in the same price range. A cheap way to get parts and a cheap way to build a new boat. 

 

Pulpit

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A cheap used boat to restore IS the way I went. And always do.

I am just curious what it would cost now to do what the original owner did back in '82 when he commissioned my boat.

All my other boats have been production or semi-custom and I have a reasonable idea what a new "version" of them would cost but I have no experience with completely custom jobs, particularly at this level.

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20 hours ago, darth reapius said:

Great response, I've been really trying to mull around all the different cost saving methods Vs the trade offs.

Honestly close to race spec without spending triple the money for an extra 2 knots downwind sorta thing.

Carbon rig is a good point, I was curious to hear your opinion there. It's one thats always racked my brain, cost of the spar vs the performace/weight aloft.

 The resin is a tough one, I would happily roll with epoxy, but my allergy to epoxy has grown ever worse over the last couple home builds I have done. So I would lean to Vinyl. Polyester is an absolute no (I'm not a monster).

I'd also be sensible with sails, very consistent heavy conditions here. Nice main, nice 2, small kite. Take the hit on light days and look into expanding the inventory as time proceeds. 

The engine note is an incredibly tough one. Absolutely no idea there, but yeah I've run seen costs from 2k to 20k with everything from outboard to inboard to electric.

The thing I'll say on how far to go with a build... I don't want to go too far again, blow too much money and be too much faster than the next boat that we're just sailing alone. We made that mistake before and the racing got stale and I moved back into one design boats. So showing up at a club race here with a Fast 40+ is getting a little pointless IMO.

But yes, I should have said before, this is for the next home build project, been 18 months since the last one finished and I'm getting those post build blues and I've been brain storming a suitable new project which is at a good cost effective/fast boat crossover point. Some thing in the middle between an I550 and a fast 40+.

Great club racer/regatta boat which could be slept on over night and not be like a C&C 30 inside, but also not be silly heavy like the cruiser/racers.

The epoxy allergy issue is very real....

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1 hour ago, Amati said:

The epoxy allergy issue is very real....

It really sucks, and is pretty common I hear.

16 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

A cheap used boat to restore IS the way I went. And always do.

I am just curious what it would cost now to do what the original owner did back in '82 when he commissioned my boat.

All my other boats have been production or semi-custom and I have a reasonable idea what a new "version" of them would cost but I have no experience with completely custom jobs, particularly at this level.

It's not bad, I find myself frustrated by most hull shapes I see here though, too many boats designed with little to no form stability, obviously for areas with less wind. Loads of great boats around where a simple refit will have you a nice weapon.

21 hours ago, pulpit said:

 

So darth,

 

Were are you Sailing out of ?

A interesting option to think about is why noy buy a good second hand boat for the parts and build a new hull and use the parts off the second hand boat ?

 

The hull and deck are the cheapest part of the build and this way you could sail the donor boat until the new hull and deck are built and then change the parts over to the new boat and sell the old hull and deck off. I’ve seen Farr 30’s for under $50k and a great Thompson 28 in the same price range. A cheap way to get parts and a cheap way to build a new boat. 

 

Pulpit

Sail in Perth, probably had 60 days on the water this year, and like 6 in less than 12 knots of breeze, and half of them were twilights.

Yeah I've looked at some really nice boats out there, annoyingly some of them are really close to what I want and also at quite decent prices.

At least I have a boat already and have plenty other commitments so I'm not rushing into anything, but also can't decide what to do. Funnily enough there's a nice Thompson 870 for sale which I thought would make a wicked donor, we had one (a T7) before and our thought everything was great on the boat, rig, sails, keel, rudder, but it just had an awful hull shape, it was so round and narrow on the waterline it was a rocket in the light stuff, but needed 6 fat guys on the rail to keep it upright in a blow and if you fixed that it'd be a great boat.

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On 6/19/2019 at 10:49 AM, SloopJonB said:

I'm curious what doing something like that would cost nowadays. I know it would be solidly into 6 figures but I'm hoping someone here can get it a bit more specific.

I'm in the process of building a custom 30ft trailerable, shorthanded, ocean racer...

I'll let you know the cost once the initial designs are completed and I start bidding it out to several yards. It's definitely not looking to be sub $100k if that's what you're wondering lol. 

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Cheers.

I know it won't be 5 figures - I'm just curious what a little more specific figure would be.

What you're doing sounds like a pretty good comparison.

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2 hours ago, Tito said:

I'm in the process of building a custom 30ft trailerable, shorthanded, ocean racer...

I'll let you know the cost once the initial designs are completed and I start bidding it out to several yards. It's definitely not looking to be sub $100k if that's what you're wondering lol. 

Would you be happy to share any details of the design and build process, such as materials and tooling/method of construction?

Carbon/epoxy with various core materials or monolithic, hand laid glass/polyester?

All female tooling or built over plugs?

These things can make a huge difference in the final price of the build, I really don’t think blanket statements saying it only costs X amount of $$$ to build a 30 foot hull provide a fair overview of a build project. 

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7 hours ago, Tito said:

I'm in the process of building a custom 30ft trailerable, shorthanded, ocean racer...

I'll let you know the cost once the initial designs are completed and I start bidding it out to several yards. It's definitely not looking to be sub $100k if that's what you're wondering lol. 

Who’s designing it?  What rule are you designing it to? 

Granted it was 20 years ago, but we had a great experience with Schooner Creek, COVE.  Steve was still there.  They should be able to give you references.

Used to be around 40’ was the sweet spot for COVE vs carbon, but it’s conceivable state of the Art has improved the sweet spot, and it was then, also, at least, more economical and quicker than other building methods. (So much quicker they got the hull laid up before we could get down there and gawk.) Some of the bids we got were jaw droppingly expensive.  Amati is D/L 96.

Might give them a call, or go visit, they are close enough to get down there a lot (like driving) to watch things going together, which is worth it’s weight.  If I could give you a few tiny pieces of advice, once you get the design finalized, don’t change anything during the build if you want to stay at budget.  Stay simple.  Not going gold plated everything will save many $$$,$$$.  

This is one of the coolest things you’ll ever do- :)

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1 minute ago, Amati said:

Who’s designing it?  What rule are you designing it to? 

Granted it was 20 years ago, but we had a great experience with Schooner Creek, COVE.  Steve was still there.  They should be able to give you references.

Used to be around 40’ was the sweet spot for COVE vs carbon, but it’s conceivable state of the Art has improved the sweet spot, and it was then, also, at least, more economical and quicker than other building methods. (So much quicker they got the hull laid up before we could get down there and gawk.) Some of the bids we got were jaw droppingly expensive.  Amati was D/L 96.

Might give them a call, or go visit, they are close enough to get down there a lot (like driving) to watch things going together, which is worth it’s weight.  If I could give you a few tiny pieces of advice, once you get the design finalized, don’t change anything during the build if you want to stay at budget.  Stay simple.  Not going gold plated everything will save many $$$,$$$.  

This is one of the coolest things you’ll ever do- :)

This bit especially. 

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On 6/19/2019 at 12:27 PM, Swimsailor said:

I inquired about this sort of thing a few weeks ago, but asked the designer directly.  They said the sub-30 foot racer-cruiser I was asking about would be anywhere between $60 and $100k depending on what country it was built in.  I'm assuming $100k in the States and $60 in Asia.  

Some designers know, and some don’t.  Talk to builders too.  Building with a mold is like building 2 boats.  It might be cheaper to build overseas, but currency fluctuation and shipping (and tariffs :lol:) are going to clear your sinuses.  The bid we went with in the states was the least of all the bids foreign and domestic, and 20 years later, she’s chugging along just fine....

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On 6/21/2019 at 12:46 PM, SloopJonB said:

I don't think I'd get much change from $10K for a carbon main - it's a frac rig with a very big main.

I spoke to the original owner a while back and he had $40K in sails back in the days of Kevlar.

Main

Light & heavy 150's

3 smaller jibs

0.6, 0.75 and 1.2 Kites

Probably average out to $4K each even in Dacron assuming current construction styles (not just crosscut).

Maybe things are more expensive here - yards charge $100/hour and it takes a few hours to build a boat from scratch. ;)

BC yards do seem to run a bit more.  Nice work though.  

There is a nice little place over on Brentwood Bay- they do wood boats, differing methods....

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14 minutes ago, Amati said:

Some designers know, and some don’t.  Talk to builders too.  Building with a mold is like building 2 boats.  It might be cheaper to build overseas, but currency fluctuation and shipping (and tariffs :lol:) are going to clear your sinuses.  The bid we went with in the states was the least of all the bids foreign and domestic, and 20 years later, she’s chugging along just fine....

and this bit, it should be a good working relationship between the owner, the designer and the builder.  Definitely recommend starting that relationship as soon as possible, this way a lot of the detail can be discussed early and easily integrated into the build early on.  Saves a lot of time changing things part way through, which also saves $$$ in the long run.

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THIS (Marblehead 22) cost  $85,000 3-4 years ago, just sayin'.

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1 minute ago, Veeger said:

THIS (Marblehead 22) cost  $85,000 3-4 years ago, just sayin'.

Yup.

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On 6/19/2019 at 12:04 PM, SloopJonB said:

What I have - a 6000 Lb pure race boat - no interior to speak of etc.

Not a 30' current sport boat.

Bagged polyester & E-glass over varying density foam - heavier in the hardware areas - nothing exotic like carbon or Kevlar fabric or epoxy.

I'm not looking for a builders quote level of accuracy, just some sort of current ballpark number.

Paying for new plans? New design?  Foam over disposable frames, foam over foam frames that become part of the interior structure, or in an existing mold?  Use an existing hull as a male mold?  Might work If a bit bigger would still fit within the rule....:lol:

at that weight, something like COVE might work, which simplifies fairing, and can make the structure more monocoque, which in turn requires less interior fitting, which cuts down on labor, etc etc.  It’s the interiors, systems and complicated exteriors that pile up the money.  In 1999 we were looking at $600-800k high bid as as specced - foam, some carbon, high end sinks, lots of systems, windows etc, and by simplifying, messing with different build methods, with Steve’s help at Schooner Creek, before we got started,  got the price down to ~$280k all up, sails everything, but we have a cruising interior, not a stripped down racing interior, so it could have gone lower. Granted almost all of the interior is structural, but it wasaesthetic interior structure.   

get rid of settees, sinks, tankage, cabinets, Nav Station, inside lighting system, lazarrets, lazarret hatches,  through hulls, an inboard, v berth, backrests on deck, deckhouse, windows, complicated cockpit, and the smaller spiral gets into play, or you can go with cheaper heavier construction and keep the weight the same...  think interior of an Etchells 22.....

 

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6000 pounds at a 26 foot WL is a d/l of ~ 150.  This is no lightweight.  How much does a 210 cost new?

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18 minutes ago, Amati said:

6000 pounds at a 26 foot WL is a d/l of ~ 150.  This is no lightweight. 

Understatement. 

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22 minutes ago, Amati said:

6000 pounds at a 26 foot WL is a d/l of ~ 150.  This is no lightweight. 

It was then. ;) It has a 53% B/D ratio as well where mid 40's was more usual.

1/2 Tonners were usually in the 7 - 7500 Lb range IIRC.

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1 hour ago, Veeger said:

THIS (Marblehead 22) cost  $85,000 3-4 years ago, just sayin'.

That's more in line with what I expected.

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1 hour ago, Amati said:

, something like COVE might work,

 

Acronym alert.... what is COVE?

The composites industry  has always loved new acronyms for processes, I know most of them, but this has me stumped.

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7 hours ago, mad said:

Would you be happy to share any details of the design and build process, such as materials and tooling/method of construction?

Carbon/epoxy with various core materials or monolithic, hand laid glass/polyester?

All female tooling or built over plugs?

These things can make a huge difference in the final price of the build, I really don’t think blanket statements saying it only costs X amount of $$$ to build a 30 foot hull provide a fair overview of a build project. 

Absolutely, will do... once I get a better idea myself of how we want to proceed. We are just finishing up the primary design process so much left to go. I'm hoping to have prices nailed down in the next couple of months so I can start construction (hopefully) over winter.

 

2 hours ago, Amati said:

Who’s designing it?  What rule are you designing it to? 

I'll let the designer chime in here if he wants to, no need to throw around names if they don't want their name thrown around :lol: I will say he is very well regarded on here, yes on SA - weird. So that rules out Juan K... 

With the huge amount of water ballast AND a rudder t-foil a'la i14 I doubt it will fit in any rating system but... ORC seems like the most fitting.

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2 minutes ago, Tito said:

Absolutely, will do... once I get a better idea myself of how we want to proceed. We are just finishing up the primary design process so much left to go. I'm hoping to have prices nailed down in the next couple of months so I can start construction (hopefully) over winter.

 

I'll let the designer chime in here if he wants to, no need to throw around names if they don't want their name thrown around :lol: I will say he is very well regarded on here, yes on SA - weird. So that rules out Juan K... 

With the huge amount of water ballast AND a rudder t-foil a'la i14 I doubt it will fit in any rating system but... ORC seems like the most fitting.

Slab sided topsides, and curved sections underwater?  Just guessing.....:)

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1 hour ago, Tito said:

Absolutely, will do... once I get a better idea myself of how we want to proceed. We are just finishing up the primary design process so much left to go. I'm hoping to have prices nailed down in the next couple of months so I can start construction (hopefully) over winter.

 

I'll let the designer chime in here if he wants to, no need to throw around names if they don't want their name thrown around :lol: I will say he is very well regarded on here, yes on SA - weird. So that rules out Juan K... 

With the huge amount of water ballast AND a rudder t-foil a'la i14 I doubt it will fit in any rating system but... ORC seems like the most fitting.

Sounds like Bieker to me.

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12 hours ago, Tito said:

Absolutely, will do... once I get a better idea myself of how we want to proceed. We are just finishing up the primary design process so much left to go. I'm hoping to have prices nailed down in the next couple of months so I can start construction (hopefully) over winter.

 

I'll let the designer chime in here if he wants to, no need to throw around names if they don't want their name thrown around :lol: I will say he is very well regarded on here, yes on SA - weird. So that rules out Juan K... 

With the huge amount of water ballast AND a rudder t-foil a'la i14 I doubt it will fit in any rating system but... ORC seems like the most fitting.

Sounds pretty interesting!

Ps. the link in your signature/footer doesn't work.

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darth, 

Have you looked at building your new boat out of cedar or kirri and strip planking it ?

 

The reason I’m asking is back in the late 1980’s - 90’s the Australian BOC sailor David Adams Built his boat “True Blue” hull out of striped plank cedar. David said the weight difference between foam and cedar was only 50kgs more in the cedar and was half the cost of building a foam hull. 

 

Kirri or Paulownia is a Australian grown timber that is like cedar and could be a quick way to build a new hull and could save you money and only be a few kg’s heavier than a foam carbon hull.

 

pulpit

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Cedar strip planking with veneer overlay would be my choice if I was building a custom boat.

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On 6/21/2019 at 10:22 PM, SloopJonB said:

That was one of the sexiest boats ever - bright finish and that extreme stinger stern Mull liked so much.

When I bought my first edition of their book at the Port Townsend festival I was desperate to build one for myself but there was never enough time, money, space, tools etc. etc.

Had to remain a dream.

Don't forget Golden Daisy. She was a looker too.

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Dazy (Sp) was gorgeous but was so expensive it was beyond even dreaming about in my 20's - could have bought a waterfront house here for what that boat would have cost to build.

Plus it had that dumb slingshot cockpit.

A Hot Flash was at least within the realm of possibility.

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42 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Dazy (Sp) was gorgeous but was so expensive it was beyond even dreaming about in my 20's - could have bought a waterfront house here for what that boat would have cost to build.

Plus it had that dumb slingshot cockpit.

A Hot Flash was at least within the realm of possibility.

I believe I was the one who misspelled it. Here's Dazy and Marauder at the Weather Mark. Nice painting. '75 Canada's Cup. On mighty Lake Saint Claire.THE_WEATHER_MARK.jpg.03e838469947b13acd9d1aad735d18b7.jpg

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16 hours ago, pulpit said:

darth, 

Have you looked at building your new boat out of cedar or kirri and strip planking it ?

 

The reason I’m asking is back in the late 1980’s - 90’s the Australian BOC sailor David Adams Built his boat “True Blue” hull out of striped plank cedar. David said the weight difference between foam and cedar was only 50kgs more in the cedar and was half the cost of building a foam hull. 

 

Kirri or Paulownia is a Australian grown timber that is like cedar and could be a quick way to build a new hull and could save you money and only be a few kg’s heavier than a foam carbon hull.

 

pulpit

I have considered it, the last boat I built was a timber glass epoxy boat, that was an itchy year. It's a weapon of a boat, short of solid carbon/nomex carbon I don't think I could have built a boat like it as light and as strong.

I have nothing against the use of wood in a boat if done right. It is kept dry though, I don't know how I feel about timber boats being in the water for very long periods of time.... I also felt like I would be faster building foam glass not timber glass...

But that is a very good point, I haven't worked with Kirri or Baulownia before.

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1 hour ago, darth reapius said:

I have nothing against the use of wood in a boat if done right. It is kept dry though, I don't know how I feel about timber boats being in the water for very long periods of time.... 

There is a 35+ year old overly canvassed cold molded (cedar I believe)  lightweight 30 footer currently advertised here on SA that has lived it's whole life in salt water AFAIK and still looked solid albeit a little rough around the edges when I viewed her this past winter https://sailinganarchy.com/advert/martin-30-3/

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6 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

There is a 35+ year old overly canvassed cold molded (cedar I believe)  lightweight 30 footer currently advertised here on SA that has lived it's whole life in salt water AFAIK and still looked solid albeit a little rough around the edges when I viewed her this past winter https://sailinganarchy.com/advert/martin-30-3/

Nice looking boat that! It's not so much the materials that worry me but the workmanship, I trust my work, but I was on a 44' flybridge cruiser recently which had been extended from 36'... And this extension had only been finished in the last couple of years, and that back 8' portion of the boat was already soft in places.

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Thread Drift I think. SLB's OP re: how much to build something similar to a formula/spec, design box like the old lower/mid ton ratings.Two years ago I went looking for a mid 20' foot performance  boat that would excel in the islands wind & swell. I should have boughta one-off Dee's designed GP 26. When 1st built I believe the class market was anticipated  to be about +/-  $125k fitted out.  I missed out on getting Mr. Dee's design  for somewhere near 30k. Epoxy hull but carbon keel strut & rig. A boat that would probly excel here. So maybe Mr. SLB is trying to get a relative value for the sweet looking boat he has rescued. I loved the old 1/4 ton Yamaha Mk II I owned foe almost 15 years, even with all her obvious faults and flaws, but damn....... I wish I had bought that Dee's GP 26. Value/Cost? I would bet good money that it cost at least neat $100k for Mr. Dees to build that 1st boat, business plan probably looking to lower that in at least a small production run. Price point ~ $ 125k. But as a one-off in a class that never quite took off, $30 - 35k was a steal. Damn.... I wish I bought that boat! I know SLB adressed his post to people in the boat building industry, but I thought this might be relevant.

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There Is another 1/2 toner boat in the classifeds. Truthfully it is irrational for me to keep working on my boat when this one is neatly sorted out. The exact materials to length to make my boat not longer exist in mass which sets the price beyond what I can afford even if I throw in my all my 401k and sell my kid’s kidney. When I look at my boats sister., I recognize the folly of my slow restoration.

 

30’ Gary Mull-designed PRETTY PENNY was built by Easom Boatworks in 1972. She is cold molded with fiberglass sheathing, Yanmar diesel, full sail inventory for San Francisco Bay, sleeps four, galley, VHF, instruments, Martec prop, recent haulout. A solid racer/cruiser, fast and easy to sail.    16k or reasonable offer. 

C7C0ED7B-2BF6-4B87-8996-8DA156A08DEA.jpeg

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50 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

Truthfully it is irrational for me to keep working on my boat when this one is neatly sorted out.

You are absolutely correct. It is fully financially irrational to build custom, or to buy new for that matter, unless a very specific set of conditions can't be found or substituted for within an existing design.

Unfortunately for sellers, boats are unlike homes in which added equipment does not necessarily equal increased value. However, as you can see in your example above, this can be quite a fortunate "feature" for used boat buyers.

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5 hours ago, Black Jack said:

There Is another 1/2 toner boat in the classifeds. Truthfully it is irrational for me to keep working on my boat when this one is neatly sorted out. The exact materials to length to make my boat not longer exist in mass which sets the price beyond what I can afford even if I throw in my all my 401k and sell my kid’s kidney. When I look at my boats sister., I recognize the folly of my slow restoration.

 

30’ Gary Mull-designed PRETTY PENNY was built by Easom Boatworks in 1972. She is cold molded with fiberglass sheathing, Yanmar diesel, full sail inventory for San Francisco Bay, sleeps four, galley, VHF, instruments, Martec prop, recent haulout. A solid racer/cruiser, fast and easy to sail.    16k or reasonable offer. 

C7C0ED7B-2BF6-4B87-8996-8DA156A08DEA.jpeg

If I lived in SF I'd buy that in a heartbeat.

Gorgeous boat.

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Mr. Sloop, I think the closest thing you are going to find in a modern setting would be the Left Coast Dart. Not sure how far north of 100 K the 5 boats produced are fetching right now. Having looked into Ogopogo from the wrong side of the bull rails, it looks like a comfortable compromise between racing , and being able to sleep aboard at a regatta. They are plenty quick on the water, too. It will be interesting what remains around in the next 2 decades. Hoping it's not all J70s in ten years...

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47 minutes ago, monsters inc said:

Mr. Sloop, I think the closest thing you are going to find in a modern setting would be the Left Coast Dart. Not sure how far north of 100 K the 5 boats produced are fetching right now. Having looked into Ogopogo from the wrong side of the bull rails, it looks like a comfortable compromise between racing , and being able to sleep aboard at a regatta. They are plenty quick on the water, too. It will be interesting what remains around in the next 2 decades. Hoping it's not all J70s in ten years...

The last left coast  dart I saw for sale was well south of 100k . Can’t remember how much but we think even the new darts were well south of 100k

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The Dart that went to Hawaii was listed for sale this past spring at $47,500.  Jim sold one in sort of an auction setup.  Price went down by $1000/week until sold.  I think it went for under $50k. 

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On 6/21/2019 at 7:58 PM, pulpit said:

 

Mate, the only way you are going to save $$$$$$ on a new One Off boat is to home build it yourself with a few mates, The trade off is ? It will take longer to build.

 

Alfredo Fernandez @ Urban Workshop , Costa Mesa.  Builds boats, among many other things.

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On 6/27/2019 at 2:46 PM, SloopJonB said:

Dazy (Sp) was gorgeous but was so expensive it was beyond even dreaming about in my 20's - could have bought a waterfront house here for what that boat would have cost to build.

Plus it had that dumb slingshot cockpit.

A Hot Flash was at least within the realm of possibility.

Anybody know what happened to Hot Flash?

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On 6/26/2019 at 7:31 AM, Amati said:

something like COVE might work, which simplifies fairing

Um, you should watch this happen some time.

On a cold moulded boat, each layer needs to be faired, and its wood with glue so its much harder to fair than foam. So a three layer hull requires FIVE fairing efforts of wood, with variations in density (wood, glue, staples, air gaps, filler). Nothing is flat, so this is long board manual fairing.

Even with COVE, where there is a layer of wood, then a layer of balsa, then a layer of wood, then covered with structural glass inside and out still requires: fairing the inside of the inner skin, then the outside of the inner skin (to get a good bond with the balsa), then the outside of the outer wood skin, and then the outside of the outer glass skin. FIVE fairing efforts, four of wood, one of glass, so barely easier than a cold moulded boat.

Someone might say that only the outer layer needs fairing. Nope, any unfairness is amplified by each layer: your boat would look like it was ferro cement by a drunk plumber. Weight, delimitation, and loss of strength is also a cost of not doing the fairing.

A foam cored glass boat: ONE fairing of foam and ONE fairing of the outside hull lamination, which is surprisingly smooth because of the high surface tension of the outer lamination. Interior is actually decently smooth without fairing, especially with a inner layer of mat. So less and much easier fairing effort.

The cost is almost all in the labor, unless its a very high tech build.

There is an economic reason wood boats are no more.

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My recollection is that the major fairing was the initial inner layer of port orford cedar, with each layer ( klegecell, then more cedar) taking less and less fairing.  In between was unidirectional e glass, aligned with load paths.  In fact, the outer layer hardly required fairing. The cedar was also aligned with loadpaths, the inner layer diagonal, the outer layer longitudinal.  As far as longevity, a Farr 40 foam/Fiberglas and Amati suffered pretty much the same accident years ago - banging the keel on the bottom-  we had some cracked and shattered bulkheads and some damage to the keel son, but no leaks.  The Farr’s keel tried to become a centerboard, to the surprised of the hull.  
 

IMHO, Wood can be as economic as a builders’ wit.

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So you’re looking for justifications of your budget to your wife....

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