Roleur

J/99 vs. J/111 for DH racing

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My wife & I currently have a J/120 that we race double-handed and sometimes 4 or 5 total crew.  The J/120 has been really good to us and we've been pleased with our race results.  That said, the overlapping 142% genoa is a bitch to tack short-handed.  We just completed the 9 leg Van Isle 360 (700ish miles) and literally tacked at least 200 times.  There were several days with 50+ tacks over a 4-5 hour period and even with 5 onboard we still lose out in tacking duels as most of the boats nowadays in our rating band don't have overlapping headsails.  We also have an interest in a boat that doesn't have such a displacement speed limit.  We finally hit 15 knots of boat speed recently, but it took 30+ knots with the big A2 to do it and the loads were quite high to say the least.  

We are now interested in focussing even more on double-handed racing and started talking about what would be a better boat than our J/120.  J/121 is obvious, but not in the budget.  The J/99 seems purpose built for our interests, so we explored that and hit a few snags.  I'm concerned about the boats light air performance.  We have plenty of that in the Salish Sea.  I saw where a well-sailed J/99 couldn't keep pace with a J/88 in light air and around here a J/88 is no light air flyer.  Our J/120 does okay upwind in light air and is quite decent downwind in light air.  My other reservation is that J/99 overall boat speed may be disappointing.  I like that our J/120 rates near the front of the fleet and we aren't a straggler hitting the dock.  Concerned that the J/99 which seems to rate somewhere in the 72-81 range for US PHRF would miss out on some opportunities faster boats get.  Really like the water ballast option on the J/99, but not certain what the PHRF rating would be for that.  I assume the 72 rating for the boat at Block Island doesn't have water ballast.    

So, in thinking about the J/99, the design, and the cost, realized that used J/111's are now available in the same price range as a new J/99.  J/111 is much faster.  Seems the like J/111 would be easier to DH than our J/120.  Blur seems to SH his J/111 quite well.  Not certain how a J/111 would perform upwind in a breeze 2-up relative to its rating compared to a J/99 with water ballast or a J/120 which doesn't seem to notice the crew weight within the range we consider, since we never sail with more than 5.  

Any thoughts on why a J/99 or J/111 might be better for our intended use?  

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what about a J/11S (though no idea if any made it to the states)?

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J/111 is a fantastic boat and although it clearly can be and has been double handed effectively it doesn't seem like it's particularly designed or best for shorthanded racing.  Seems like if you're really focusing in on a boat that will mostly be used for shorthanded racing there must be better options.  But to be honest what those other options are I'm not sure.  Lots of French boats are great for shorthanded racing (Pogo, Archambault, JPK, etc) but most of those would probably not be good light wind boats.  What about some of the older J/boats that had tillers?  Seems like the big wheel of the J/111 and similar is one of the things that makes shorthanded sailing a bit of a challenge since your mobility is somewhat limited when at the helm.  What about a J/92?

Have you picked the collective brains of the SSS guys in SF?  They may have some good suggestions.

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I think you should figure out what type of sailing you want to optimize the boat for either double handing or with a crew of 5 and what race track you want to race around. Short course with 2 is a different boat than medium course with 5. 

Once you know the course and the crew the boat will be the easy part.  The 120 are good boats, not great and any one thing but rather good at a lot.  Dh I would look at a figero or maybe a class 40. You could sail the class 40 with crew as well. 

All the best 

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I've sailed a J/120 a bunch as well as the J/111, including some doublehanding.   The J/111 is a nice platform but a bit tender in feel compared to the J/120.   As mentioned I'd also look at a vintage Class 40 as there are many under 200k now.

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Among the two choices posed by the OP, the 111 would be a great choice. As for other choices there are a lot of options, recently saw a J122 for a similar price if they want a bigger boat. An older Class 40 would be fun when it's windy but for the majority of conditions in the Pacific NW (lighter air and often upwind/downwind due to geography) a Class 40 might be a struggle. Add in that the prevalent rule is PHRF with ORC having some growth  likely factors into the decision.  Other boats like the JPK 10.80 or a Sunfast 3600 might be also worth a look. 

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ive sailed or owned j92s, j100, and j111.  the 100 and 111 were too tender for me for DH. the 92s was pretty damn good and if you can find a good one will be a palace compared to spadefoot for light money but perhaps you're over that stage. If I were you I would try and get a jpk 1010. I think the bepox 990 is still for sale on the transquadra site for 90k euros. sick boat check youtube - off-wind flyer.

 

archambault a31 is a great great boat - not as fast as 1010 but very good upwind.  they are readly available in europe for 70k.  spend 30k on sails and autopilot if nec and that is a winner. If I were you I would try and get a jpk 1010. I think jeanneau has outdesigned the j99 with the 3300 and for the 99 cash i would prefer a used 3200 with lots left over. I think the 111 is similarly tender to spadefoot - not quite, but similar.

If you are thinking more racing to Hawaii really check out the bepox.

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On 6/21/2019 at 4:00 PM, Roleur said:

Not certain how a J/111 would perform upwind in a breeze 2-up relative to its rating compared to a J/99 with water ballast or a J/120 which doesn't seem to notice the crew weight within the range we consider, since we never sail with more than 5.

having competed against them.., i think the 111 suffers a bit upwind when waves get to say 6ft - even with crew on the rail. of course, it is very fast in more favorable conditions/points of sail.., so like everything, it's a compromise... 

for DH.., i wonder if you could  get a 111 and add a water ballast system - you are probably still under the price of a new 99

 

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Ah, so many choices :lol:

For me, it comes down to where you race, and what races you intend to do. And also how much fun you want,

I choose the J/111 specifically for the light Scandinavian summer conditions, where many races are decided at night in the archipelago. And that combined with planing in the typical 18 knots sea breeze sealed the deal for me.

Tougher to sail than a SunFast, JPK or typical doublehand designs, as you need to manage power at all times. But super rewarding both in sailing faster than the wind in anything below 6 knots and regularly doing 20+ knots.

If I raced in Holland, France or the UK both the J/99 (with the possibility of Transquadra) and the J/122 (like Ajeto, sailed by John Van Der Starre and Robin Verhoef) would be better options. Both for winning races, but also for comfort. The J/111 in 20+ knots offshore is a grueling boat :o 

 

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On 6/21/2019 at 6:00 PM, bloodshot said:

what about a J/11S (though no idea if any made it to the states)?

this boat is available for charter in the carib and they will sell it.

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I'd certainly be looking at Sunfast 3600s, 3200s, 3300s, and also JPK options. Mostly European boats but by far the top performing double handed boats in this category at the moment, and should be within budget if you look carefully.

 

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The 11s is a good option and I would choose one over a 99 or 111. The boat in the Caribbean called Sleeper is most likely for sale and I think is one of only 2 11S’s built (could be wrong) but has been converted to use a single rudder instead of the designed twin rudders. I sailed the boat when it first arrived in the UK and was pretty impressed by it. It still heels a lot and ultimately lacks form stability as every J boat does but it does carry a little more mass for punching upwind. With all that considered i’d take a Sunfast 3600 :D 

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Thanks for all the replies.  Here are more of my thoughts:

  • Really not interested in any non-J Boat.  I know that is hard for some people to get, but it is what is.  J Boats work for some people.  Our J/120 is an amazing boat for our needs, so I will stick with what works.  Nevermind that from someone that likes the lines of a J Boat, some of other recommendations are so ugly I would be ashamed to own them.  With aesthetics, it only matters what I think.
  • There is definitely something to be said for the right boat for the location.  Many of the recommendations (apparently) do very well in heavy conditions which we almost never see.  In the last 1.5 years of racing quite a bit we've only used our #3 jib twice and only wished our J/120 would go faster downwind one time, and that was still super fun.  We crossed the line ahead of the J/111.  I'm referring to the Sunfast 3600 in particular.  We have one here locally.  It rates faster than our J/120 and so far I haven't noticed we were actually racing in the same race.  That's not an endorsement for the 3600, in case you were confused.  Maybe it shines elsewhere, but around here, it would need a 20 sec/mile correction to be competitive.
  • 11s is too rare to seriously consider.  The J/99 is all but out of the running.  I was waiting to see the BIRW results.  First day results are in and the 99 looks to be DOA in the US.  A J/122 might be the best choice of all.  It is mostly a J/120 with non-overlapping headsails.  It doesn't excite me though.  Too similar to justify the change and so far we've had good luck competing against them.  The J/111 still has a lot of appeal.  If we make a change, that will likely be our next boat.
  • All that to say, we will stick with the J/120 for now.  It is nearly perfect and the devil we know.  We've learned a ton about how to sail the boat well over the last 8 years and there are still a lot of little fun optimizations we can make.  So, we'll keep tweaking what we have and what is working pretty well and see how far we can go.  
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3 hours ago, Roleur said:

All that to say, we will stick with the J/120 for now.  It is nearly perfect and the devil we know.  We've learned a ton about how to sail the boat well over the last 8 years and there are still a lot of little fun optimizations we can make.  So, we'll keep tweaking what we have and what is working pretty well and see how far w

 
 

But think of all the frustration of learning a new boat and the regrets you have when you realize it will take you three seasons to get up to speed. :lol:

Also: 

 

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20 hours ago, Roleur said:

The J/99 is all but out of the running.  I was waiting to see the BIRW results.  First day results are in and the 99 looks to be DOA in the US.

I'm in no way, shape, or form a J boat fanboy, but the 99 is right next to us in block and I went to take a look at it. A few observations: 

- the fit and finish down below is pretty good. It has a dedicated sail locker up forward, a functional galley, reasonable berths. this one does NOT have water ballast.

- they've had pretty good success with this boat in distance races, but the boat rated 75 or 78 in those races. They feel they are overly penalized at 72.

- they were 4th in yesterday's RTI which was a challenging affair with a SE flow that started at 14 and built to 20+ and essentially adverse current the entire way around the island. In a 3 hour race kites were up for only around 40 minutes.

Overall, I'm pretty impressed with the way the boat is put together. The team is stacked of course, but I think they're still working out some bugs. Today's an enforced lay day and tomorrow looks light and could be another lay day, so we'll see how they do when the weather gets light again.

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3 hours ago, Snowden said:

^^ love the synchronised broach at the end :-)

Hate the call "when they broach, we broach to - hold on" :lol:

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I'd like to suggest that one of the reasons that you do quite well in light air is your large, overlapping headsails.   We sail a J/110 on Lake Champlain and get our fair share of light winds.  We have had J/109s and a J/122 in our Wednesday night PHRF fleet.   While those boats are faster almost all of the time, when the wind is 2-5 knots if we have our 155%  light #1 up, we are faster upwind than the J/109 and J/122 upwind with their class jibs.  Once around the windward mark, they will pass us with their big chutes.  But for light air work, a light #1 is hard to beat.  It requires crew to tack smoothly, however, and no matter how you slice it, tacking a lot in light air is slow, tacking a big sail is just slower (and more effort) than tacking a small one.   If you do a lot of long-distance light air races, the power of the large #1 will likely outweigh. the hassles of tacking it.   If you are on a short course and tacking often, the opposite will be true.  

We have a J/111 on the lake as well.  It doesn't sail Wednesday nights with us, but we have sailed against it on longer weekend races.  I don't have the side by side comparison that I have with the 109 and 122.  The J/111 seems quite fast in most conditions, and I know the owner and crew really enjoy sailing it.   

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ever thought about a slightly smaller headsail? be a lot cheaper than a new boat, no?

 

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We currently have a smaller headsail. It's a 142%LP vs the typical 150-155%. We get a 3 second credit for that and O R C counts it too. Definitely worth it for us sailing short-handed and in over 15 we are faster with a slower rating. It's still a big sail and requires lots of grinding plus skirting about half the time. Not to mention we are giving up something upwind in under 10. 

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The Aerodyne 38 would be a great boat for you guys..

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On 7/11/2019 at 12:12 AM, ASP said:

The Aerodyne 38 would be a great boat for you guys..

When we bought our J/120 I thought we were going to buy an Aerodyne. We looked at a few and test sailed one. We ended up buying the J/120 because it was less money, in better condition, and the only thing we could see better about the Aerodyne was the small difference in speed.  Now the non-overlapping headsail seem nice too.  We’ve had mixed results against the local Aerodynes. Usually faster upwind , even when shorttacking double-handed and slower downwind.  So far, we've only lost to an A38 one time when sailing with the same crew (full vs DH). That said, I like the A38, but we won't be trading to that. I guess part of my motivation is to get a newer boat that doesn't need a lot of maintenance. Just priced painting Shearwater's topsides and deck.  That alone would cover the cost of anything under $200k after selling Shearwarer. 

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Roleur,

It'd be interesting to see how much credit you'd get by going all the way down to a non-overlapping jib, instead of a overlapping genoa like your 142.  On the J/109, the class jib and class chute rate 6 secs slower than the 155 genny and PHRF chute.  And are just as fast in anything over 8 knots.  I'd bet that if you went with a light air non-lapper, and a code zero, you'd do pretty darn good in light air, and kill folks in med/heavy air with a med non-lapper and a number 3 you alredly likely have, and never have to tack the big genny...The cost of a couple sails is likely smaller than the cost of selling Shearwater and buying a J/111...

Crash

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Ben, or anyone else, what is the config of the boat coming to Seattle?

Raced on the J/99 for the 100+ mile Harvest Moon Regatta in Texas. For better or for worse we had only one condition. About 12-20 upwind and close-reaching.  We were the smallest boat in our class, in what turned into a mostly waterline race. Crossed the line second right next to a PHRF optimized J/105 that owed us time in ORC and corrected out to 2nd in class behind a 38 footer.  We did cross the line ahead of another 105 and two 109s that owed us time.

Was this the first offshore race for a J/99?  In the US?  

At first I was underwhelmed by the performance, while the boat was very nice to sail, easy to sail, and quite stiff.  It bothered me that it wasn’t any faster than a 25 year old 105 (in fairness they were rated for and using a genoa).  The more i think about it, the more I’m feeling the 99 did well in probably its worst point of sail/wind condition relative to longer boats. Had we had any reaching or running I dont think the 105s would have stayed with the 99.  The 99 also seems to have much better speed potential dowwind than the 105 or 109, due to optimized hull shape.  In that regard it seems like a cool design.  Heavy and stiff enough to go upwind with ability to plane downwind.  That is really hard to find, at least in the US.  

Still interested in seeing more light air results.

when I first heard of the 99, I thought the water-ballast would be a cool addition for shorthanded racing.  Now I’m not sure it is even needed.  In my perfect world, the wb would be great if the keel were a little lighter or the rig a little taller.  Both would help light air performance, and the wb making up the difference in breeze.

Could be a fun boat to race to Hawaii shorthanded with a pole!  Without being a pain box.

Would love to see more PHRF results, since that is what we have around here, mostly.  Starting to think the ORC rating is actually pretty sweet.  

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On 7/30/2019 at 9:33 AM, Crash said:

Roleur,

It'd be interesting to see how much credit you'd get by going all the way down to a non-overlapping jib, instead of a overlapping genoa like your 142.  On the J/109, the class jib and class chute rate 6 secs slower than the 155 genny and PHRF chute.  And are just as fast in anything over 8 knots.  I'd bet that if you went with a light air non-lapper, and a code zero, you'd do pretty darn good in light air, and kill folks in med/heavy air with a med non-lapper and a number 3 you alredly likely have, and never have to tack the big genny...The cost of a couple sails is likely smaller than the cost of selling Shearwater and buying a J/111...

Crash

Well, we took your advice, and....  ordered  a 150% genoa.  Ha.  No matter how we sliced it, our weakness has been upwind in under 10 knots, which we see plenty of around here (every race this year had that condition at some point).  I’m hoping that order will conjure more breeze for next year.  Would love to spend more time in the #3 wind range. The boat loves those conditions.  

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9 minutes ago, glexpress said:

There was a J/99 in the Chicago Mackinac last summer:
Boat Detail

3rd in Section 7

For anyone who might not know, Richard Stearns is the J boat dealer for the Chicago area. Note that one of the crew was a Johnstone out of Newport, RI.

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On 12/12/2019 at 9:03 PM, Roleur said:

Well, we took your advice, and....  ordered  a 150% genoa.  Ha.  No matter how we sliced it, our weakness has been upwind in under 10 knots, which we see plenty of around here (every race this year had that condition at some point).  I’m hoping that order will conjure more breeze for next year.  Would love to spend more time in the #3 wind range. The boat loves those conditions.  

My oldest son often asks for my advice, and then completely ignores it, and he seems to be doing fine, so I you probably made a great decision!:rolleyes:

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On 12/13/2019 at 4:58 AM, Roleur said:

Ben, or anyone else, what is the config of the boat coming to Seattle?

Raced on the J/99 for the 100+ mile Harvest Moon Regatta in Texas. For better or for worse we had only one condition. About 12-20 upwind and close-reaching.  We were the smallest boat in our class, in what turned into a mostly waterline race. Crossed the line second right next to a PHRF optimized J/105 that owed us time in ORC and corrected out to 2nd in class behind a 38 footer.  We did cross the line ahead of another 105 and two 109s that owed us time.

Was this the first offshore race for a J/99?  In the US?  

At first I was underwhelmed by the performance, while the boat was very nice to sail, easy to sail, and quite stiff.  It bothered me that it wasn’t any faster than a 25 year old 105 (in fairness they were rated for and using a genoa).  The more i think about it, the more I’m feeling the 99 did well in probably its worst point of sail/wind condition relative to longer boats. Had we had any reaching or running I dont think the 105s would have stayed with the 99.  The 99 also seems to have much better speed potential dowwind than the 105 or 109, due to optimized hull shape.  In that regard it seems like a cool design.  Heavy and stiff enough to go upwind with ability to plane downwind.  That is really hard to find, at least in the US.  

Still interested in seeing more light air results.

when I first heard of the 99, I thought the water-ballast would be a cool addition for shorthanded racing.  Now I’m not sure it is even needed.  In my perfect world, the wb would be great if the keel were a little lighter or the rig a little taller.  Both would help light air performance, and the wb making up the difference in breeze.

Could be a fun boat to race to Hawaii shorthanded with a pole!  Without being a pain box.

Would love to see more PHRF results, since that is what we have around here, mostly.  Starting to think the ORC rating is actually pretty sweet.  

The boat can be specced with a lead fin keel with no bulb which trades righting moment for reduced drag downwind, better upwind performance in sub 14-16kts and a slightly lower IRC rating. This combined with water ballast is a more popular option for short handed offshore racing in Northern Europe.

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2 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

I hate to say it but how bout electric winches?

Is that allowed in PHRF and ORC?

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1 hour ago, Roleur said:

Is that allowed in PHRF and ORC?

PHRF does not ask (at least in BC), nor do they seem to care about this. It adds weight, so most delete if serious and gain crew members that can move around and be useful ballast.

ORC does have a section for non-manual power when applying, so I would presume it does give you a bit of a hit if you don't have to work as hard to keep the maneuvers quick.

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7 minutes ago, solosailor said:

If you have to use powered winches stop racing. 

Agreed.  I wasn't considering, but was curious if it was even allowed.  I assumed it wasn't.  

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It is allowed but PHRF does need to know.....   The Schock 40 used stored energy for it's keel, the King 40 here has power winches, etc.      I should have said, if you need power winches for tacking get a Wyliecat.  Cheers.

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The 111 is a very powered up boat for light air conditions. In PHRF NE they rate 42 and are all but untouchable in 0-9 knots true, especially in point to point racing. 

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14 minutes ago, Squalamax said:

The 111 is a very powered up boat for light air conditions. In PHRF NE they rate 42 and are all but untouchable in 0-9 knots true, especially in point to point racing. 

Except for FT10 at ~20% of the J/111 price that sticks to them like glue and rates 9 seconds per mile slower.

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1 hour ago, marcus brutus said:

Except for FT10 at ~20% of the J/111 price that sticks to them like glue and rates 9 seconds per mile slower.

You get what you pay for........

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6 hours ago, Squalamax said:

You get what you pay for........

You sure do; a great boat for one fifth of the price.

Over 100 FT10s were built in the first 2 years of production.

But if you insist on overpaying to get a boat with a "J" logo; don't let me stop you.

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8 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Except for FT10 at ~20% of the J/111 price that sticks to them like glue and rates 9 seconds per mile slower.

Where is this?  It is not our experience in the PNW, which is predominantly light air.  We have two J/111's and 3 FT10's.  The 111's rate 12 and 18 seconds faster here.  The 111's have a number of big wins overall (2 Round the County's and a Van Isle 360 in the last 14 months.  Most recent RtC was very light and the J/111's were 1st and 4th overall.).  The FT10's, not so much.  We rate even with them in our J/120 and so far they've not been an issue.  They are clearly better performers in light air than heavy, but...  We also don't see the FT10's entering our offshore races around here much at all, and the FT10 would clearly struggle big time upwind in a breeze doublehanded.  

Don't get me wrong, each boat has its place in the market and lots of happy owners, but the notion that a potential J/111 owner would be happier with an FT10 is incorrect.  They cater to different groups and that is just fine.  Neither group is wrong and both have boats that meet their preferences.  

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3 hours ago, Roleur said:

Where is this?  It is not our experience in the PNW, which is predominantly light air.  We have two J/111's and 3 FT10's.  The 111's rate 12 and 18 seconds faster here.  The 111's have a number of big wins overall (2 Round the County's and a Van Isle 360 in the last 14 months.  Most recent RtC was very light and the J/111's were 1st and 4th overall.).  The FT10's, not so much.  We rate even with them in our J/120 and so far they've not been an issue.  They are clearly better performers in light air than heavy, but...  We also don't see the FT10's entering our offshore races around here much at all, and the FT10 would clearly struggle big time upwind in a breeze doublehanded.  

Don't get me wrong, each boat has its place in the market and lots of happy owners, but the notion that a potential J/111 owner would be happier with an FT10 is incorrect.  They cater to different groups and that is just fine.  Neither group is wrong and both have boats that meet their preferences.  

By down voting my previous post and then replying to it, you have indelibly defined your lack of character.

The respect that I had for your double handed racing experience on the J/120 and Schumacher 28 is being steadily eroded by your uninformed and intemperate actions on this forum, so please take a time out to deal with your anger management issues.

 

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Anger Management Issues?   WTF?   He clearly stated his experience in races where those boats competed.....  how is that "uninformed" and anger based?   That's a stretch.

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16 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Except for FT10 at ~20% of the J/111 price that sticks to them like glue and rates 9 seconds per mile slower.

For us that wants to be informed, I'm sure you have some links to results?

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On 12/30/2019 at 12:00 PM, solosailor said:

It is allowed but PHRF does need to know.....   The Schock 40 used stored energy for it's keel, the King 40 here has power winches, etc.      I should have said, if you need power winches for tacking get a Wyliecat.  Cheers.

I don't know what you mean by "allowed." You still have to deal with Rule 52, no? It may be allowed from a rating perspective, but the OA still has to change Rule 52 in order to use them to race.

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On 12/31/2019 at 11:16 AM, Squalamax said:

The 111 is a very powered up boat for light air conditions. In PHRF NE they rate 42 and are all but untouchable in 0-9 knots true, especially in point to point racing. 

PHRF-NE is one of the only areas that is still holding on to that 42 rating. I'm still not sold on the 111 as a DH boat, and doubly on the FT10 - great boat, but its design parameters include getting it in a shipping container and I think it really needs its rail meat compared to other boats that might work better for the purpose.

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It’s a slow night...

So, we bought a J/111.  3 sails in and we are loving it.  Wife loves it, which is most important.  Lots of little details to work on, but so far the projects have gone swimmingly.

Interestingly, a friend at our yacht club has a new J/99 on order.  Hull 47 just shipped and his is number 49.  Give us a year or two and maybe we’ll know which boat ended being the better choice.  We have a similar race schedule planned and all DH.

Pic below is about 20 minutes into sail number uno.

2ABA5B53-9E3B-4F91-A35E-F903D084FD68.jpeg

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Congratulations!

I sail my J/111 two-handed or solo all the time and it's a great boat.  We use it for races, day trips, weekend sailing as well as longer cruising holidays.

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6 hours ago, ZeeZee said:

Congratulations!

I sail my J/111 two-handed or solo all the time and it's a great boat.  We use it for races, day trips, weekend sailing as well as longer cruising holidays.

We are planning our first DH race this summer with my J/111.  Looking forward to it!

Hroth

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Guys, let me know if I can help in any way. I'd be happy to write a piece on "top 5 tips on shorthanding the J/111" or "7 things that you will fuck up when you try to push the J/111 shorthanded" :lol:

But your questions/thoughts would be a great start.

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On 6/25/2019 at 12:56 PM, Roleur said:

 

  •   A J/122 might be the best choice of all.  It is mostly a J/120 with non-overlapping headsails.  It doesn't excite me though.  Too similar to

Nothing could be further from the truth. I have owed and raced both. 2 totally very different boats. Each has its own strengths and weakness.

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16 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Nothing could be further from the truth. I have owed and raced both. 2 totally very different boats.

I recall you shared this opinion several years ago.  Still don't understand it.  While they are different, they are still very, very similar compared to the world of boat options.  If you wanted to change from a J/120 you would be very hard pressed, if it is even possible to come up with another option that was more similar to a J/120 than a J/122.  Size, weight, interior, downwind.  Either way, doesn't matter.  Just didn't want a J/122.  They don't interest me and a J/111 does.  Part of the motivation for changing was to get a slightly smaller boat since we almost exclusively double-hand.

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1 hour ago, Blur said:

Guys, let me know if I can help in any way. I'd be happy to write a piece on "top 5 tips on shorthanding the J/111" or "7 things that you will fuck up when you try to push the J/111 shorthanded" :lol:

But your questions/thoughts would be a great start.

  1. Opinion on top-down furlers for kites?
  2. Main on slides or bolt rope?  Which is easier for reefing? (I have one of each)
  3. Steering versus AP?
  4. Using the staysail too?
  5. Any No-Nos?

Love to hear your perspective.  And, when you come to Lake Michigan with Blur sometime, we can have a beer!

Hroth

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2 hours ago, Blur said:

Guys, let me know if I can help in any way. I'd be happy to write a piece on "top 5 tips on shorthanding the J/111" or "7 things that you will fuck up when you try to push the J/111 shorthanded" :lol:

But your questions/thoughts would be a great start.

Peter or Hroth, I have a much simpler question.  How do you handle reefing at the tack?  I see the two padeyes on the mast.  Have a D-ring on the main, but no lines and no obvious way to rig things up.  I envision something going from a padeye on the mast to the D ring and then to?  Tensioned how?  

Tonight is sail #4 DH on our J/111.  So far so good with the handling part.  It is more or less than same as the J/120 except a lot of things are easier/smaller.  We haven't seen 15 knots of wind yet though.  

I do wonder about 3 sail gybing DH in over 20 knots.  Seems like a good way to fuck it all up.  Thinking furling the jib before the gybe might be wiser?  

Hroth we DH'ed the hell out our J/120 with a bigger kite and had no issues launching or dousing the kite, even in 30 knots.  When the breeze is up we just letter box the kite and down the main companionway.  No one has to go forward and low drama with the kite blanketed/smashed up against the leeward side of the main.  We got rid of our ATN socks in 2014.  Haven't looked back.  

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23 minutes ago, Roleur said:

Peter or Hroth, I have a much simpler question.  How do you handle reefing at the tack?  I see the two padeyes on the mast.  Have a D-ring on the main, but no lines and no obvious way to rig things up.  I envision something going from a padeye on the mast to the D ring and then to?  Tensioned how?  

Tonight is sail #4 DH on our J/111.  So far so good with the handling part.  It is more or less than same as the J/120 except a lot of things are easier/smaller.  We haven't seen 15 knots of wind yet though.  

I do wonder about 3 sail gybing DH in over 20 knots.  Seems like a good way to fuck it all up.  Thinking furling the jib before the gybe might be wiser?  

Hroth we DH'ed the hell out our J/120 with a bigger kite and had no issues launching or dousing the kite, even in 30 knots.  When the breeze is up we just letter box the kite and down the main companionway.  No one has to go forward and low drama with the kite blanketed/smashed up against the leeward side of the main.  We got rid of our ATN socks in 2014.  Haven't looked back.  

Reef. A small Dyneema loop with a snap hook, that I loop through itself on one of the pad eyes. Important that the length is right so that the sail looks good when tensioning the reef + halyard.  

A-WICHARD-2471-0002.jpg

Furling the jib is easier, as the kite fills earlier and you don't need to head up so much. My shorthanded jib is on hanks, so I kind of nurse it around, pre sheeting on the new side (ord midships). Fordeck tends to be a mess...

Letterbox is the way to go. Our biggest kite is 155 m2 and hasn't had any issues getting it down. Socks havn't been on boartd since 2013.

 

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6 hours ago, Roleur said:

I recall you shared this opinion several years ago.  Still don't understand it.  While they are different, they are still very, very similar compared to the world of boat options.  If you wanted to change from a J/120 you would be very hard pressed, if it is even possible to come up with another option that was more similar to a J/120 than a J/122.  Size, weight, interior, downwind.  Either way, doesn't matter.  Just didn't want a J/122.  They don't interest me and a J/111 does.  Part of the motivation for changing was to get a slightly smaller boat since we almost exclusively double-hand.

Congrats, the 111 is a nice ride. I was just trying to set the record straight for others who are looking to compare the two.

Comparing a 120 to a 122 is like trying to compare a 109 to your 111.

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4 hours ago, Black Dog said:

Comparing a 120 to a 122 is like trying to compare a 109 to your 111.

Not really. From my perspective, the J/120 is a great offshore ride, but need to stretch out to excel. J/109, J/122 as well as the new J/112e are windward/leeward machines focused on VMG up and down. Also in a handicap fleet. Not super exciting, but does the job extremely well.

If w/l was my thing, I would go for a J/112e in a heartbeat.

J/88, J/111, and J/121 are different, more in line with J/90, J/125 and J/145... not really great from a rating perspective, as you need to beat much bigger boats (i e J/122), but with an added fun-factor.

For us the choice was similar. Coming from the J/109, the J/122 was the natural successor. But we wanted a bigger challenge, and more smiles on board going downwind. Hence, the J/111. We might have won more races in a J/122 :)

J/boats ofthen get flack for the wide range, but they are masters at picking distinct pockets in the market, with very specific needs or "jobs-to-be-done".

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16 hours ago, Roleur said:

Peter or Hroth, I have a much simpler question.  How do you handle reefing at the tack?  I see the two padeyes on the mast.  Have a D-ring on the main, but no lines and no obvious way to rig things up.  I envision something going from a padeye on the mast to the D ring and then to?  Tensioned how?  

Tonight is sail #4 DH on our J/111.  So far so good with the handling part.  It is more or less than same as the J/120 except a lot of things are easier/smaller.  We haven't seen 15 knots of wind yet though.  

I do wonder about 3 sail gybing DH in over 20 knots.  Seems like a good way to fuck it all up.  Thinking furling the jib before the gybe might be wiser?  

Hroth we DH'ed the hell out our J/120 with a bigger kite and had no issues launching or dousing the kite, even in 30 knots.  When the breeze is up we just letter box the kite and down the main companionway.  No one has to go forward and low drama with the kite blanketed/smashed up against the leeward side of the main.  We got rid of our ATN socks in 2014.  Haven't looked back.  

Here is the reefing diagram we use.  Its a single line reek system per the J Boats specs.  Frankly, we haven't reefed much.

Hroth

image.png.18828359664cc34acfa78361ca89627e.png

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Well, that explains why the reefing line was so long!  Key word - was.  Ha.  I might like to give it a try that way though.  Tis okay, that reefing line is one of the last few lines on the boat we haven't replaced.  Thanks for both of the reefing tips.

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Like Blur, I use a shackle at the mast to fit into the reef webbing on the sail.  As it can be quit hard to pull down the sail when staying at the mast, I fitted a short loop of rope in the webbing of the sail.   That way it's easier to grab the rope loop and pull the sail down towards the point that you are able to hook the shackle into the webbing.

Sailing shorthanded I reef from approximately 17 kt TWS (upwind, depending on sea state)

reef.jpg

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35 minutes ago, ZeeZee said:

As it can be quit hard to pull down the sail when staying at the mast, I fitted a short loop of rope in the webbing of the sail.  

I found the trick here is to mark the halyard at reef point + x cm (long enough) so you can just dump the halyard to the mark, run forward to the mast and attach the hook. We have no issues with the sail coming down other than downwind. See video below at 02:55,

 

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Sure, halyard should be marked for all reefs.

The loop I have attached to the webbing is maybe only 10cm in size.  I use it only the keep the sail down with one hand, while attaching the shackle with the other.  Without the loop the flapping sail can be hard to keep in place while trying to get the shackle in the webbing.

Another "trick" I did to make reefing more easy:  

At the leash of the sail I use a traditional lasso rope around the boom.   Sometime this lasso moves forward on the boom when the reef is nog in use.   When you then put in a reef,  the reefing line does not pull enough to the aft side of the boom.   So I attached a short line to the reefing line lasso around the boom.   This small line is then attached to the back of the boom (I actually have it attached to the fittings of the main sheet blocks).   This ensures the reefing line is always lassoed around the boom at the correct spot.   (probably you can also use duct tape to achieve the same result ;-) 

 

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48 minutes ago, ZeeZee said:

Sure, halyard should be marked for all reefs.

The loop I have attached to the webbing is maybe only 10cm in size.  I use it only the keep the sail down with one hand, while attaching the shackle with the other.  Without the loop the flapping sail can be hard to keep in place while trying to get the shackle in the webbing.

Another "trick" I did to make reefing more easy:  

At the leash "leech" of the sail I use a traditional lasso rope around the boom.   Sometime this lasso moves forward on the boom when the reef is nog in use.   When you then put in a reef,  the reefing line does not pull enough to the aft side of the boom.   So I attached a short line to the reefing line lasso around the boom.   This small line is then attached to the back of the boom (I actually have it attached to the fittings of the main sheet blocks).   This ensures the reefing line is always lassoed around the boom at the correct spot.   (probably you can also use duct tape to achieve the same result ;-) 

 

 

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2 hours ago, ZeeZee said:

At the leash of the sail I use a traditional lasso rope around the boom.   Sometime this lasso moves forward on the boom when the reef is nog in use.   When you then put in a reef,  the reefing line does not pull enough to the aft side of the boom.   So I attached a short line to the reefing line lasso around the boom.   This small line is then attached to the back of the boom (I actually have it attached to the fittings of the main sheet blocks).   This ensures the reefing line is always lassoed around the boom at the correct spot.   (probably you can also use duct tape to achieve the same result ;-) 

Bit of an overkill... but... I started out the same way but figured a black shock cord hidden in the groove on top of the boom, with just two loops coming up at the proper places, would also hold the reef lines in the proper location.

When we replaced the boom to carbon, we made two of those. Reef line is lashed on top. 

reefs2.jpg

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Interesting, I guess they changed the booms not long after your boat?  Our Hull #94 came with a carbon boom.  

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Afaik the boats always come standard with an aluminum boom.  I have hull 107 which has an aluminium boom.

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6 hours ago, Roleur said:

Interesting, I guess they changed the booms not long after your boat?  Our Hull #94 came with a carbon boom.  

One design class boom is alloy. If your boat came with a carbon one then it’s been added extra, I hope the alloy boom was also included in the inventory...

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8 hours ago, Roleur said:

Interesting, I guess they changed the booms not long after your boat?  Our Hull #94 came with a carbon boom.  

I have hull #100.  Aluminum boom.  Didn't even know carbon was an option.  I don't think it is class legal for one-design racing.

Hroth

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We designed our own in carbon w Seldén, and I know some other Scandinavian and Australian (?) boats went with a similar one.

NOT class legal and carbon is not in the price list.

 

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