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Ryan..

Fit a fat head into a roller furling boom (square top)

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Anyone managed to squeeze a fat head mainsail (40-60% of foot) into a roller boom? Sailmaker is hesitant based on the diagonal gaff batten and amount of stiffness needed in the head.  

Figured I can either remove the gaff batten when putting the sail away or maybe it will roll if I manually pull the sail down and out of the feeder before the gaff goes into the mandrel. For the stiffness maybe there is a way to stiffen in other ways? with the batten arrangement?

Setup:

Leisure furl ~70 Sqm sail, 6m boom, 15m tri, unfortunately no outside track for batten cars, but a aluminum groove on a carbon mast for a bolt rope sewed into the sail.  

Would like to keep the roller system if possible, since I single hand often, and it's quite nice once you figure out how to not jam it often.              

If you know of a sailmaker with experience at this, even better!

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blow-up batten 

yer welcome

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If you don't care much about aesthetics, sandwich the upper part of the main between two layers of UV resistant cloth.  And don't roll that part.

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7 minutes ago, McGyver said:

If you don't care much about aesthetics, sandwich the upper part of the main between two layers of UV resistant cloth.  And don't roll that part.

I like this solution - you can pick a sunbrella color to match whatever "color scheme" your boat might have and could even put an emblem, symbol etc on that part.

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Did something similar on a Hunter HC50 with a profurl boom. Can send some pictures and video. Head was only 28" but could have gone bigger... I would have felt better about it on a leisureful vs the profurl The biggest issue is your committing so luff tape maintenance in a big way. PM me and I can give you some thoughts and tips. You will NEED to work with a sailmaker that can actually give you some time and come to the boat as their will certainly be some teething pains. 

Send me a PM and I would be happy to send you some pics etc (having trouble uploading here)

 

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You can get it round a boom just fine, but you'll have to add a funny flake or two at the top. Maybe the main I saw it on was Doyle....

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1 hour ago, Ryan.. said:

Figured I can either remove the gaff batten when putting the sail away or maybe it will roll if I manually pull the sail down and out of the feeder before the gaff goes into the mandrel.

Don't have a furling boom but I ran into an issue where I actually couldn't remove the gaff batten with the sail in the track as it was just to high above the deck to reach it!

With a luff tape your best bet is probably to take the top of the sail manually out before rolling it in. At that point you can just take the batten out to finish rolling the sail in (doubt it would roll with the batten in there.

Adding some sort of UV protection to the top of the sail might be a good idea regardless as I would find myself "lazy" and likely to leave the top sticking out for short time periods...

 

 

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46 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

I think the guy who invented this posts on there forums.  Can't find a better link, but the problem has been solved.

 

https://setsail.com/fat-head-mainsails-cruising-hardware-answer/

I think you’re referring to DDW...pretty sure that’s the headboard system he developed for his mainsail.

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1 hour ago, DA-WOODY said:

blow-up batten 

yer welcome

I like it, may leave a salty taste though

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3 minutes ago, Ryan.. said:

I like it, may leave a salty taste though

You nasty

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1 hour ago, McGyver said:

If you don't care much about aesthetics, sandwich the upper part of the main between two layers of UV resistant cloth.  And don't roll that part.

 

1 hour ago, Parma said:

I like this solution - you can pick a sunbrella color to match whatever "color scheme" your boat might have and could even put an emblem, symbol etc on that part.

Not a bad solution, like the simplicity.

Would have to calculate how much area I'm leaving out there. Since the boat is on a mooring most the time, don't want it sailing against the mooring with gusts coming down from the cliffs (Tahiti). Maybe I can pull the head out the track when I leave the boat and lash it down against the boom.

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55 minutes ago, sailiorstu said:

Did something similar on a Hunter HC50 with a profurl boom. Can send some pictures and video. Head was only 28" but could have gone bigger... I would have felt better about it on a leisureful vs the profurl The biggest issue is your committing so luff tape maintenance in a big way. PM me and I can give you some thoughts and tips. You will NEED to work with a sailmaker that can actually give you some time and come to the boat as their will certainly be some teething pains. 

 Send me a PM and I would be happy to send you some pics etc (having trouble uploading here)

 

"luff tape maintenance in a big way" - yup already happened...

Thanks, sent PM

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50 minutes ago, shubrook said:

You can get it round a boom just fine, but you'll have to add a funny flake or two at the top. Maybe the main I saw it on was Doyle....

 

50 minutes ago, Airwick said:

Don't have a furling boom but I ran into an issue where I actually couldn't remove the gaff batten with the sail in the track as it was just to high above the deck to reach it!

With a luff tape your best bet is probably to take the top of the sail manually out before rolling it in. At that point you can just take the batten out to finish rolling the sail in (doubt it would roll with the batten in there.

Adding some sort of UV protection to the top of the sail might be a good idea regardless as I would find myself "lazy" and likely to leave the top sticking out for short time periods...

 

 

I suspect this is what the final solution will be... Don't at all mind a bit of manual work putting the main away. But like to have quick foolproof, from the cockpit reefing. 

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53 minutes ago, fufkin said:

I think you’re referring to DDW...pretty sure that’s the headboard system he developed for his mainsail.

 

50 minutes ago, Overbored said:

Anomaly head board  https://www.doylesails.com/other/sail-handling/anomaly-headboard

too big for my sail but we mad a smaller version of it using a bat car and a small block

That's it.  Unfortunately it looks like batten cars are required instead of a bolt rope.  

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Mack Sails made this high roach main for my Aerodyne 47, which has a leisurefurl boom.   The battens overlap the backstay up to 20”.  I’ve been very happy with for the last 10,000 miles.  Just went Tran-Atlantic to the azores.   Yes the luff tape is a maintenance item.0D11551C-3AD1-4482-9592-21AA6949AC04.thumb.jpeg.f2b0e974e1f9994f419eae2f701f5bfd.jpeg

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If you have a leisurefurl boom you probably don't race. Why not just go for a high roach main so it can furl easily. Not as trendy I know, but....

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give Schurr sails in Pensacola a call … they always came through for me and the prices are good too

say hello to Hunter from me will ya

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Yep, what THOR said.

Corsair trimarans and F-boats remove the angled batten before rolling on the boom.  Some also have a small vertical batten that needs to be removed.

Simple process if these battens are retained by Velcro or such.  A little extra work, but worth the trouble.

Ryan, would you please keep us posted on how you handle this?  What works, what doesn't work, and why, please.  Good luck!

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On 6/24/2019 at 12:55 PM, Ryan.. said:

 

Not a bad solution, like the simplicity.

Would have to calculate how much area I'm leaving out there. Since the boat is on a mooring most the time, don't want it sailing against the mooring with gusts coming down from the cliffs (Tahiti). Maybe I can pull the head out the track when I leave the boat and lash it down against the boom.

That will turn into a big pain in the ass (imagine doing it in 20k+ TW) , and you’ll probably need a ladder to get up there.  Don’t ask me how I know.

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6 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Yep, what THOR said.

Corsair trimarans and F-boats remove the angled batten before rolling on the boom.  Some also have a small vertical batten that needs to be removed.

Simple process if these battens are retained by Velcro or such.  A little extra work, but worth the trouble.

Ryan, would you please keep us posted on how you handle this?  What works, what doesn't work, and why, please.  Good luck!

Latest is I chatted to John and leisure (forespar). Forespar apparently tried a car based carriage up there to handle the extra loads but discontinued that because it caused undisclosed issues. They seem quite evasive on the topic and not going much in the way of detail, just to say they discourage fatheads. I assume the compression loads and or the aft pulling loads damaged the aluminum track somehow. Which doesn't sound like fun in a blow. Will press forespar for more details.

A sailmaker has apparently used a bolt based setup without a carriage, but the wear and tear sounds quite high, unacceptably so if motor sailing, head flopping around. 

So it's either reinforce the track and use a bolt based car/carriage with hinged battens or live with the wear and tear? I'm going to take a closer look at the track design before moving in a direction. But it's probably going to be option 2 with a smaller head for less loads, which is a pity. 

 

 

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On 6/25/2019 at 1:55 AM, Alcatraz5768 said:

If you have a leisurefurl boom you probably don't race. Why not just go for a high roach main so it can furl easily. Not as trendy I know, but....

Since I don't race , I should just cut off the mast and use the engine? should simplify even more?

I like to go fast, who doesn't

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4 minutes ago, Ryan.. said:

Since I don't race , I should just cut off the mast and use the engine? should simplify even more?

I like to go fast, who doesn't

Actually, his question was pretty damned accurate and not nearly as rude as your response to him. 

I’ll assume you’ve done the math, so what are the speed gains vs. low hassle?  You’ve already sacrificed performance for weight with the boom, so why over complicate things?

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Ryan's a dick.  Wait, is this Ryan the party guy?  He used to lure guys from the boat to the car and service them.  You go Ryan!

 

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9 hours ago, Ryan.. said:

Since I don't race , I should just cut off the mast and use the engine? should simplify even more?

I like to go fast, who doesn't

Calm down big fella. My point is, Square top mains are ok on race boats where there is a full crew to fuck around with them and get them up and down, but for cruising they are a ball ache, which is why cruiser racers often have a pin head delivery/cruising main. The difference in performance between a fat head and a big roach main on a cruising cat will be negligable, but the grief will be substantial. If you had lazy jacks and slab reefing the Anolomy style dohicky would be ok short handed.

If on the other hand you want it for its trendyness and fashionable looks, then fill your boots and put up with the grief. Im not against this as i have stupid lowered cars and trucks, that are way worse than standard but look badass, and im willing to put up with the compromise.

ymmv, just trying to help.

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10 hours ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

Calm down big fella. My point is, Square top mains are ok on race boats where there is a full crew to fuck around with them and get them up and down, but for cruising they are a ball ache, which is why cruiser racers often have a pin head delivery/cruising main. The difference in performance between a fat head and a big roach main on a cruising cat will be negligable, but the grief will be substantial. If you had lazy jacks and slab reefing the Anolomy style dohicky would be ok short handed.

If on the other hand you want it for its trendyness and fashionable looks, then fill your boots and put up with the grief. Im not against this as i have stupid lowered cars and trucks, that are way worse than standard but look badass, and im willing to put up with the compromise.

ymmv, just trying to help.

Just trying to look cool, I'm compensating for not getting on the race team 

seriously thou, we all have our unique requirements/preferences, still weighing up the benefit vs effort 

your point on the work involved is a good one to consider 

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On my previous boat it took 30 minutes to get underway and 45 minutes to put away. A two hour day sail was not worth it. I typically sail 4 or 5 days a week between racing and day sailing. The day sailing part is often single handed.

 
When I designed the new boat in 2000 being able to get underway and put away in 10 minutes was high on the list of desirable features. This is how I solved it.
 
Fractional, roller furled, self taking jib, roller furling the main around the boom.
 
The boom gooseneck is a universal joint with a 1 inch pen that goes thru the mast. The end of the pin is a hex section that fits a winch socket so I can use a standard winch handle to turn the boom.
 
At the back end of the boom is a stainless plate that is pined to the boom. The topping lift attaches to the top and the main sheet to the bottom.
 
A rope vang attaches/detaches from the boom.
 
The mast is equipped with an Antal bolt rope/bat car track. the current main has a 6 foot square head, and attaches to the mast with a bolt rope. The sail is completely removed from the track when rolled.
 
The procedure to mount the sail:
 
Un role two turns to get the square head on the cabin top. Insert the diagonal batten with a velco closure.
 
Attach the main halyard, attach the head of the sail to the headboard with a detent pin.
 
Insert the bolt rope into the prefeeder, then into the feeder and bolt rope track, pause, attach the end of the diagonal batten pocket to the bat car with a detent pin.
 
Lead the halyard around the halyard winch on the mast one turn to change direction then lead it to the electric winch on the back of the cabin top. With the engine running, activate the electric winch and watch as  the mane sail goes up. The winch switch is located on deck at the base of the mast so you can stop if something hangs up.
 
This procedure takes me 6 minutes single handed.
 
The procedure to drop the sail:
 
Detach the vang and cunningham.
 
Flake the main halyard out on the fore deck so it will run freely.
 
Insert a winch handle into the socket.
 
Step on the halyard and open the halyard clutch.
 
Using your foot to control how fast the main comes down, roll up the sail.
 
Takes about 30 seconds.
 
When the batcar hits the stop pull the detent pin and let the main down untill the head board hits the stop, pull its pin.
 
The sail is compleatly detached from the mast.
 
Remove the diagonal batten, remove the halyard and roll up the last two turns and tie off with a single sail tie.
 
Bolt rope maintenance;
 
I sail a lot but the main is not up 24/7 as it might be for a long distance cruiser. The only bolt rope problem I have had is that initially the batten pockets were set too close to the bolt rope and didn't allow enough room for the batten pocket to pass by the feeder easily. The current main is 6 years old. The luff was re faired last year to adjust sail shape and to try to get rid of leach sag in the square head. The bolt rope was replaced but not because of damage.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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