stayoutofthemiddle

J/125 - A Real Unicorn

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I'm always amazed these J/125's still fetch $300K+ all these years later. Currently only one listed on YachtWorld.

I don't know much about them except they are fast as hell and seem to go up in value which defies the typical race boat trend.

I'm curious why J Boats doesn't bring them back? Anyone know why these are so sort after 20 yrs later?

 

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That would make sense and they can't have that.But i do agree with you why are they not coming down in price.Even the crappy ones are a bit on the pricey side

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Asking and selling are miles apart. Last sale I found was $252K. Still a lot of money for a 20 year old 41' race boat. 5 boats sold in the 170-215 zone in the last 5 years so they did tick up. 

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How many boats do you know of that in heavy air running will out pace a Santa Cruz 70 with a fraction of the sail budget and ease of handling?

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There are two listed in the classifieds.  I have done a lot of miles on one of them.  They are unicorns in terms of performance for a boat that is 20 years old.   They are just a rocket ship in over 16 knots downwind which is what we do on the west coast of the USA.

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1 hour ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

I'm always amazed these J/125's still fetch $300K+ all these years later. Currently only one listed on YachtWorld.

I don't know much about them except they are fast as hell and seem to go up in value which defies the typical race boat trend.

I'm curious why J Boats doesn't bring them back? Anyone know why these are so sort after 20 yrs later?

 

Would J-Boats rather sell 200-300 J-121s or J-122s or tool up to sell about 10 J-125s to a very limited market? 

Most people like boats that can go uphill as well as down, with the sole exception of the US west coast, where rich people only go downhill and the poor people get a pittance to go back uphill.

 

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Can a 125 go upwind in light air with other PHRF 0 rated boats? 

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27 minutes ago, Greyhound37 said:

Can a 125 go upwind in light air with other PHRF 0 rated boats? 

From side-by-side experience, below 12 knots and flat water, it sails to about a 15-20 rating in my experience.   Above 15-20 true, maybe a 30+ rating.  

The boat is quite narrow and has no real form stability with a beam of 10' and change (and no interior volume.)   A couple of feet narrower than J-121, Farr 39, Cookson 12, Farr 40, etc. and at least 2,500# lighter.

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51 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

From side-by-side experience, below 12 knots and flat water, it sails to about a 15-20 rating in my experience.   Above 15-20 true, maybe a 30+ rating.  

And off the wind? Sails to a rating of...

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57 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

From side-by-side experience, below 12 knots and flat water, it sails to about a 15-20 rating in my experience.   Above 15-20 true, maybe a 30+ rating.  

The boat is quite narrow and has no real form stability with a beam of 10' and change (and no interior volume.)   A couple of feet narrower than J-121, Farr 39, Cookson 12, Farr 40, etc. and at least 2,500# lighter.

I am thinking more like a PHRF of -30 in winds over 15. The J 125 provides great value to point to point racing on the West Coast, similar to the Santa Cruz product. I would speculate that well built TP 52's and Rogers 46 might even do the same.

 

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16 minutes ago, Dude said:

I am thinking more like a PHRF of -30 in winds over 15. The J 125 provides great value to point to point racing on the West Coast, similar to the Santa Cruz product. I would speculate that well built TP 52's and Rogers 46 might even do the same.

 

How are you using that "-30" rating?  For Transpac, Ensenada or Cabo?  Then maybe.  For W/L or offshore random, not in my experience.  

And why are you "thinking" about this?  There are PHRF ratings on file in Socal, Nocal and PNW for J-125s.  

If you think winning a pickle dish is providing great value, then sure.  No need to speculate, TP52s have proven themselves dozens of times.  Unfortunately they are sitting at about -90 in PHRF, which is why many of them are going to ORC.  PHRF has no ability to adequately handicap boats that plane in moderate wind speeds. 

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1 hour ago, Greyhound37 said:

Can a 125 go upwind in light air with other PHRF 0 rated boats? 

No. They are phenomenal in big air, but very poor in the light. There's a reason why they left the Chesapeake Bay and found a home in San Francisco. 

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I looked into buying one four years ago… naively thinking it would be priced in the low 100s. I think most of the boats on the market these days have been updated and professionally maintained, although 20 years old most of the systems (including rudders) are new. 

I remember a review Bob Perry did on the boat when it came out (https://www.boats.com/reviews/perry-design-review-j125/). The discussion on ratios may help shed some light on this boat’s unicorn status. I am sure people that have sailed the boat extensively can confirm (or reject), but the high stability ratio allows you to sail a 40 foot boat across an ocean with only 5 crew members (with no need for a canter or water ballast). That is why I was initially interested in the boat (until it became clear I could not afford it)… a fast 41 footer that did not require 8 people to sail long distance. 

The 1D 35 has seen a resurgence in popularity since I know some boat brokers have noted the similarities to the 125 (not sure I see them). I would also note that the FT 10 has similar ratios (except lower tech construction and therefor not as high of a stability number). 

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4 hours ago, Left Shift said:

How are you using that "-30" rating?  For Transpac, Ensenada or Cabo?  Then maybe.  For W/L or offshore random, not in my experience.  

And why are you "thinking" about this?  There are PHRF ratings on file in Socal, Nocal and PNW for J-125s.  

If you think winning a pickle dish is providing great value, then sure.  No need to speculate, TP52s have proven themselves dozens of times.  Unfortunately they are sitting at about -90 in PHRF, which is why many of them are going to ORC.  PHRF has no ability to adequately handicap boats that plane in moderate wind speeds. 

I would whole heartily agree with your assessment, specifically "PHRF has no ability to adequately handicap boats that plane in moderate wind speeds." Although, I would recognize planing at any wind speed. PHRF, in my area, rates boats at 12 knots of true wind speed. Think we are saying the same thing, very difficult to rate planning boats.

 

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17 hours ago, Left Shift said:

From side-by-side experience, below 12 knots and flat water, it sails to about a 15-20 rating in my experience.   Above 15-20 true, maybe a 30+ rating.  

The boat is quite narrow and has no real form stability with a beam of 10' and change (and no interior volume.)   A couple of feet narrower than J-121, Farr 39, Cookson 12, Farr 40, etc. and at least 2,500# lighter.

So basically, no free lunch. Boat is a dog uphill but great going down? Seems like lop sided design parameters. Maybe someone a J Boats was a big TransPac fan.

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17 hours ago, woudaboy said:

even more elusive, the J-90.  Only 5 built.

Anyone know where these are now?

 

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5 hours ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

So basically, no free lunch. Boat is a dog uphill but great going down? Seems like lop sided design parameters. Maybe someone a J Boats was a big TransPac fan.

Not a dog at all, just not sailing upwind to a rating that tries to recognize its remarkable speed downhill.  J-boats, unlike their usual design targets, built a boat that was well off to one side of the envelope testing just how strong the sport boat market really was.  It wasn't that strong.  As a result they only built and sold a few of them.  

It wasn't long ago that a 40'er rating around 50 was considered fast.  The Cal 40 rates 120+?  

(After all, when PHRF was begun, 0 was set at what the top end of boat speed was expected to be.  Minus ratings were not a thing that was considered at the outset.  Just like the center point of the fleet for ToT calculations was set down in the 100s.  About J-24 speed.  Which is at the core of why ToT doesn't work for faster boats.  PHRF rant over.)

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7 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Not a dog at all, just not sailing upwind to a rating that tries to recognize its remarkable speed downhill.  J-boats, unlike their usual design targets, built a boat that was well off to one side of the envelope testing just how strong the sport boat market really was.  It wasn't that strong.  As a result they only built and sold a few of them.  

It wasn't long ago that a 40'er rating around 50 was considered fast.  The Cal 40 rates 120+?   

(After all, when PHRF was begun, 0 was set at what the top end of boat speed was expected to be.  Minus ratings were not a thing that was considered at the outset.  Just like the center point of the fleet for ToT calculations was set down in the 100s.  About J-24 speed.  Which is at the core of why ToT doesn't work for faster boats.  PHRF rant over.)

Fair points and good analysis.

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12 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

It wasn't long ago that a 40'er rating around 50 was considered fast. 

I mean, I remember that time, but I wouldn't characterize it as "wasn't long ago". It's been about 25 years.

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23 hours ago, woudaboy said:

even more elusive, the J-90.  Only 5 built.

And one with a rotating mast...

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9 minutes ago, doghouse said:

I mean, I remember that time, but I wouldn't characterize it as "wasn't long ago". It's been about 25 years.

Well, I'm old (and I remember when the Cal 40 came out to play and was the fastest, coolest thing on the block.)

I saw a great summary of the perception of time:

100 years = 1,000 years ago

50 years = A couple of decades ago.

25 years = A decade ago

10 years = A year ago

Last year = 1,000 years ago

Last month = A decade ago

Last week = A year ago

Yesterday = When?

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Yeah, I'm not young either.

I think I saw that same thing on Twitter myself. I still catch myself self saying "oh that song from a couple years ago." You mean 2001? "Uh, yeah."

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If you ever get a chance to sail one you will know why they are so desired! We just brought hull #14 back from the Netherlands and completed a 8 month total refit. New paint, new deck, new rudder, tabbed in bulkheads, and the list goes on and on. Basically a brand new boat now. Already signed up for PacCup 2020. Would have loved to make Transpac, but things took longer than expected. Can't wait to start sailing her and verifying for ourselves how she sails to her rating. Here are a few pics of the finished product and a link to our first sail in a beer can race!

Cheers! 

IMG_4020.JPG

IMG_4034.JPG

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Here is why Big Boat Series 2 J-125's blasting side by side great fun.

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J/133 is no slouch either. Good all rounders going well downunder in Aus and in Europe. Still competitive under IRC TOO.

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3 hours ago, SFracer said:

If you ever get a chance to sail one you will know why they are so desired! We just brought hull #14 back from the Netherlands and completed a 8 month total refit. New paint, new deck, new rudder, tabbed in bulkheads, and the list goes on and on. Basically a brand new boat now. Already signed up for PacCup 2020. Would have loved to make Transpac, but things took longer than expected. Can't wait to start sailing her and verifying for ourselves how she sails to her rating. Here are a few pics of the finished product and a link to our first sail in a beer can race!

Cheers! 

IMG_4020.JPG

IMG_4034.JPG

nice call on The D.O.C.

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Know somebody who campaigned a J-125 when they first came out and she lost interest when the local PHRF board issued a brutal rating which we could never sail to in our light air venue.  Big money, no return.

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J/125 Hamachi does well in light air Seattle.  They are doing TransPac this year.  One of the crew is pretty regular on here. 

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1 hour ago, Alex W said:

J/125 Hamachi does well in light air Seattle.  They are doing TransPac this year.  One of the crew is pretty regular on here. 

maybe their rating up there helps? the damn thing is a weapon anywhere off the breeze , and i figure the 0 rating helps even things out on the downwind/reaching angles, in at least 10 knots or more. i would love to have one.

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I am curious about what Velvet Hammer did to lower their rating by soo much compared to all the others.  They have a .9195 while the others are .9242-.9257

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There have been many boats designed and built that the owners/crews didn't really know how to use correctly. That is not to say they were crappy sailors... just that the boats required a different mind-set to get the best out of them and they required different conditions in which to excel. The Hobie 33 is another example of such a boat.

J/ has made a successful company by designing boats the are optimized for 8-12 knots of wind from all directions. In other words, the conditions in nearly all the most popular large sailing venues. J/ creates the occasional outside-the-box boat and some of them make it in the marketplace and some don't. It's not really overly unusual that it took the J/125 20 years to fit into her shoes.

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1. How do the carbon experts here feel about 20+ year old carbon? Glass seems to last nearly forever. 

2. How many 125s are there in the SF Bay? How can I get a ride?

3. What prevents the 125 from being successful upwind? I know the JPK/Pogo/etc. wide boats don’t like to go uphill, but I expected the 125 would point well.

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The J-125 is not a dog up wind. She just has to carry a handicap that is normally reserved for boats with longer waterlines. I've done two Big Boat Series on Time Shaver. While the J-125s weren't quite as fast as the Farr 400 upwind, we were able to stay in contact and then real them back down hill. Although, the trim that produced the most VMG was let's just say less than conventional. And, I won't go into it any further than that.

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On 7/9/2019 at 2:13 PM, SFracer said:

 

 

 

IMG_4034.JPG

I like the narrow cockpit. It would be real easy to have a slide board to get from side to side, especially with a wheel and no tiller in the way.

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On 7/10/2019 at 9:49 AM, Alex W said:

J/125 Hamachi does well in light air Seattle.  They are doing TransPac this year.  One of the crew is pretty regular on here. 

And they won!

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J/125's go 1, 2, 4, 5 OVERALL in Transpac.  I don't see the price dropping below $300k anytime soon.  

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On 7/8/2019 at 3:04 PM, Tom O'Keefe said:

How many boats do you know of that in heavy air running will out pace a Santa Cruz 70 with a fraction of the sail budget and ease of handling?

Never happened on the Great Lakes.

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6 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

Never happened on the Great Lakes.

J/125 dude .... not J/120 or J/122

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11 hours ago, Roleur said:

J/125's go 1, 2, 4, 5 OVERALL in Transpac.  I don't see the price dropping below $300k anytime soon.  

There are two under 300k in the classifieds

 

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38 minutes ago, RATM said:

J/125 dude .... not J/120 or J/122

Erleichda used to be on the lakes.  

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2 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Erleichda used to be on the lakes.  

Early 2000's there was a boat called Jeannine out of Chicago... Not sure where she went after the owner passed.

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25 minutes ago, fan said:

There are two under 300k in the classifieds

 

$319,000 and $339,000 respectively.

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1 hour ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

Early 2000's there was a boat called Jeannine out of Chicago... Not sure where she went after the owner passed.

She is in Ct and in way better shape then when the previous owner had her . Cheers 

582.jpg

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2 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

$319,000 and $339,000 respectively.

My bad under 400K I guess

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Maybe NYYC should have commissioned J125s instead of Swan 42s and the new fleet of 37s.   

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On 7/30/2019 at 3:23 PM, footlong said:

Maybe NYYC should have commissioned J125s instead of Swan 42s and the new fleet of 37s.   

ya no...

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On 7/30/2019 at 10:16 AM, RATM said:

J/125 dude .... not J/120 or J/122

I can read.  There were 2 on the lakes and they never touched the 70's.

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2 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I can read.  There were 2 on the lakes and they never touched the 70's.

All I can say is I was sitting on a certain Turbo SC70 that is no longer a float while I watched my buddies on a very well sailed J-125 that is currently in the classifieds romp right on bye in 25+ TWS at about 150 TWA.

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1 hour ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

All I can say is I was sitting on a certain Turbo SC70 that is no longer a float while I watched my buddies on a very well sailed J-125 that is currently in the classifieds romp right on bye in 25+ TWS at about 150 TWA.

Not doubting you, but I can count on one hand how many times we've had 25+ downwind on the lakes.  Around the buoys, the 125 didn't cut it against the 70.

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Just now, Cal20sailor said:

Around the buoys, the 125 didn't cut it against the 70.

 LOL I hope we don't start a war comparing a 40 footer to a 70 footer... Or is it just part for the course here at Anarchy :P

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2 minutes ago, Tito said:

 LOL I hope we don't start a war comparing a 40 footer to a 70 footer... Or is it just part for the course here at Anarchy :P

Par.  Don't even get me started on the naked pictures of your mama.

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1 hour ago, Cal20sailor said:

Not doubting you, but I can count on one hand how many times we've had 25+ downwind on the lakes.  Around the buoys, the 125 didn't cut it against the 70.

Never said the J125 was competitive with a SC or Andrews 70 around the buoys. But, crank up the wind and point it downhill and there is a whole lot of fun on a J125. Even at Big Boat Series we don't race with the 70's. Uphill it's just another 40 footer with little RM. But, they are damn fun ripping back in under the Golden Gate or past Alcatraz to Blossom. 

 

Then there's the California Offshore Race Week. Another 25 knot + off the wind event. Or, the Islands Race or anyone of several races to Mex. 

 

Yeah, I know I'm gloating.  But, when I went back there for the Mac, all I got was " you guys from California don't know how to sail upwind". And we ended up first boat under 70 foot to finish on a N/M55. 

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3 minutes ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

Yeah, I know I'm gloating.  But, when I went back there for the Mac, all I got was " you guys from California don't know how to sail upwind". And we ended up first boat under 70 foot to finish on a N/M55. 

You sure as shit weren't here this year for the PH-Mac.  What year and what lake do you speak of sir.

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Chicago Mac and a long time ago...Clark Kent and Fujimo were our primary competition. 

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4 minutes ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

Chicago Mac and a long time ago...Clark Kent and Fujimo were our primary competition. 

 Cool, on a Queens Cup CK lost their rig upwind in about 25kts.  There was  a group in  Canada (Our Lady Peace) at the time that had a song Superman's Dead.  Of course it got played.

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On 7/29/2019 at 8:27 PM, Roleur said:

J/125's go 1, 2, 4, 5 OVERALL in Transpac.  I don't see the price dropping below $300k anytime soon.  

So the rating is off, but that can be fixed.

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I've been racing against SC52 s ever since. We have a few good ones out here. That was CK's first outing.We went over Sleeping Bear very close to a leeshore beating into a very square chop in just over 20 true. Very tough stretch. But, it loosened up all the way into the island the next morning. 

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1 minute ago, Parma said:

So the rating is off, but that can be fixed.

It's a horses for courses situation.  Across a wind matrix the J125 is pretty fairly rated. But, it has a peak as soon as it gets on step that the ratings just don't cover.

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2 minutes ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

I've been racing against SC52 s ever since. We have a few good ones out here. That was CK's first outing.We went over Sleeping Bear very close to a leeshore beating into a very square chop in just over 20 true. Very tough stretch. But, it loosened up all the way into the island the next morning. 

I wish you  could recall the year.  I'm 61 and they are a blur.  

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Pretty sure it was around 93 Harmony was the boat. The owners sold it after the race to build a turbo version called Harlequin. We started the 95 Transpac but had to pull the plug after water incursion. Ended up being a light air demon.

Sorry for the thread drift.

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56 minutes ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

Pretty sure it was around 93 Harmony was the boat. The owners sold it after the race to build a turbo version called Harlequin. We started the 95 Transpac but had to pull the plug after water incursion. Ended up being a light air demon.

Sorry for the thread drift.

there are no drifts when the content is good! proceed. :D

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You really don't want me to go down that history trail. My wife would kill me if I documented all those boats and races. But suffice to say, "what a long crazy trip it's been" with some pretty cool people.

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5 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

I can read.  There were 2 on the lakes and they never touched the 70's.

They almost did!  I still remember a Chicago NOOD when we damn near cut one in half. The breeze got nasty and everyone was a “little” out of control. Erleichda came across on Port and to this day, I still don’t know how the crash dive to duck them worked!

Awesome boats though!

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Reality check for Unicorns vs Sleds. Transpac 2019.

Unicorns about ten hours slower than the sleds with the sleds starting on the slowest start day. Of course this is mostly reaching and downwind, in a pretty breeze on year so probably doesn't count.  Oh, wait!

 

Screen Shot 2019-07-31 at 11.25.08 PM.png

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4 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Reality check for Unicorns vs Sleds. Transpac 2019.

Unicorns about ten hours slower than the sleds with the sleds starting on the slowest start day. Of course this is mostly reaching and downwind, in a pretty breeze on year so probably doesn't count.  Oh, wait!

 

Screen Shot 2019-07-31 at 11.25.08 PM.png

Get your facts outta here man

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18 hours ago, Parma said:

So the rating is off, but that can be fixed.

Or it has taken 20 years for people to figure out the boat.  If this were a PHRF thing, then yeah, take a look.  But they won with a measurement rule.  Hard to argue ratings with that.

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18 hours ago, Parma said:

So the rating is off, but that can be fixed.

Sure...You can join the "make PHRF Great Again" team. Good luck with that.

Why is everyone shocked that a boat optimized to be a downwind rocket ship in breeze turns out to be a downwind rocketship in breeze.?  

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20 hours ago, Monkey said:

They almost did!  I still remember a Chicago NOOD when we damn near cut one in half. The breeze got nasty and everyone was a “little” out of control. Erleichda came across on Port and to this day, I still don’t know how the crash dive to duck them worked!

Awesome boats though!

On Evo?  I stand corrected.  I don't know how to put this, but having sailed with them in KW in '97 on their N/M 36, it wasn't the best sailed boat.

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3 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

On Evo?  I stand corrected.  I don't know how to put this, but having sailed with them in KW in '97 on their N/M 36, it wasn't the best sailed boat.

No, it was Cyno.  They did their turns after the fact, so all good in my book. A front rolled through and none of us were in much control as we tried to just get around the weather mark. 

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On 7/31/2019 at 4:10 PM, Tom O'Keefe said:

It's a horses for courses situation.  Across a wind matrix the J125 is pretty fairly rated. But, it has a peak as soon as it gets on step that the ratings just don't cover.

 

22 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Sure...You can join the "make PHRF Great Again" team. Good luck with that.

Why is everyone shocked that a boat optimized to be a downwind rocket ship in breeze turns out to be a downwind rocketship in breeze.?  

 

22 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

Or it has taken 20 years for people to figure out the boat.  If this were a PHRF thing, then yeah, take a look.  But they won with a measurement rule.  Hard to argue ratings with that.

No. They MUST be punished!

Just enough to make the owners go "gawdammit, what the hell!" and/or "JFC, gawdam mother'fer ratings committee!!"

C'mon guys it will be fun!

(and in case nobody noticed the original comment was pure sarcasm)

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17 hours ago, Monkey said:

No, it was Cyno.  They did their turns after the fact, so all good in my book. A front rolled through and none of us were in much control as we tried to just get around the weather mark. 

Now, if we could just amend the rules to allow turns "before the fact",  the sport would become a whole lot more interesting.  At least for boatyards.  

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20 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Now, if we could just amend the rules to allow turns "before the fact",  the sport would become a whole lot more interesting.  At least for boatyards.  

Not sure what you’re saying. Pretty much everyone was on the hairy edge of out of control at that time. We dodged them, they did penalty turns, life was good. We didn’t even have to protest. They just spun around and around. That’s cool in my book. 

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

Not sure what you’re saying. Pretty much everyone was on the hairy edge of out of control at that time. We dodged them, they did penalty turns, life was good. We didn’t even have to protest. They just spun around and around. That’s cool in my book. 

Think bigger picture, not your particular incident which seems well handled.  Coming into a jammed up leeward mark in a big fleet...go ahead and do a couple of turns before you get there and then just slam right in on the inside....pre-exonerated!!!

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7 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Think bigger picture, not your particular incident which seems well handled.  Coming into a jammed up leeward mark in a big fleet...go ahead and do a couple of turns before you get there and then just slam right in on the inside....pre-exonerated!!!

You’re trying to hard to find evil. It had jumped from about 15 to 30 knots. We were all in awkward conditions. We never even had to put a red flag up. 

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Just now, Monkey said:

You’re trying to hard to find evil. It had jumped from about 15 to 30 knots. We were all in awkward conditions. We never even had to put a red flag up. 

Really, I'm not talking about your situation at all!  Let it go. 

See comment above:  "not your particular incident which seems well handled."

I was making a rather stupid little joke about the rules, completely, utterly divorced from any judgement about your incident.  I will now go shuffle off to my Remedial Comedians 101 class for retraining.

 

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59 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

ahead and do a couple of turns before you get there and then just slam right in on the inside....pre-exonerated!!!

I'm down. I agree 100%. Let's do this. 

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17 minutes ago, Tito said:

I'm down. I agree 100%. Let's do this.

Maybe fly a flag to indicate you have a foul in hand to other boats so they can try stay clear.

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1 hour ago, Essex said:

Maybe fly a flag to indicate you have a foul in hand to other boats so they can try stay clear.

This is a fantastic idea.

Could we even stack flags to have a couple of fouls at hand? Just to make sure you can be "free to foul" without undue stress.

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4 minutes ago, Tito said:

This is a fantastic idea.

Could we even stack flags to have a couple of fouls at hand? Just to make sure you can be "free to foul" without undue stress.

Ok, as patent holder, I approve of the alert flag idea.  Watch the peons scatter!

Actually did a test run of this idea a few years ago.  A group of kind of aggressive one design boats decided to use a very casual beer can race as a practice.  We read the SIs which said a 360 was required for over early. Without discussion among ourselves, at about 30 seconds, we all started early spun our turns and took off in clear air.  Not quite the same but rules are rules.  

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