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Illegal C420 at Nationals

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BTW, Anyone notice how many brand new users are on this thread? Methinks the C420 builders have a few sock puppets.... 

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On 8/2/2019 at 10:57 PM, dgmckim said:

 

the builder made a conscious decision to break the rules. the merits of particular building methods are immaterial. he made a conscious decision to build a number of boats that were 100% out of spec. He sold those illegal boats to sailors who perhaps knew the boats had a competitive advantage but were not made aware of the fact that the boats were completely and knowingly illegal. He admitted himself that he did not do his part in submitting the changes to the class for approval. If he intended to do that he would have done it before a single boat was sold to anyone. any conclusion that you come to beyond 'the builder absolutely shit the bed and must refund his customers' is probably giving sympathy to someone who does not deserve it.

I don't disagree, a mistake appears to have been made by the builder (I won't state whether that was deliberate or unintentional.), but the worst solution for the class in the short term is to ditch all the illegal boats, risk losing a builder and risk losing a heap of members. The association has stated their case, the builder needs to make it right somehow, I have proposed a possible solution for making it right that minimises the risks to the class.

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35 minutes ago, Ncik said:

a mistake appears

absolutely no way it is a mistake. he said he didn't do his diligence in submitting changes to the class, but, his actions make it clear he had no intention of letting the class OR buyers know he had made significant changes to the boat. the sailors should be refunded so they can buy class legal boats. That or be replaced by the builder with new boats that are certified class legal. it's entirely on the builder to make this right. the class and the sailors have no obligation to be sympathetic to him.

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12 hours ago, dgmckim said:

absolutely no way it is a mistake. he said he didn't do his diligence in submitting changes to the class, but, his actions make it clear he had no intention of letting the class OR buyers know he had made significant changes to the boat. the sailors should be refunded so they can buy class legal boats. That or be replaced by the builder with new boats that are certified class legal. it's entirely on the builder to make this right. the class and the sailors have no obligation to be sympathetic to him.

anything that isn't "right", is a "mistake".... in one of the sense of the words... if you wanted to be semantically pedantic and somewhat argumentative.

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22 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

anything that isn't "right", is a "mistake".... in one of the sense of the words... if you wanted to be semantically pedantic and somewhat argumentative.

LOL. That's like saying "killing my boyfriend was a mistake."

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Just now, fastyacht said:

LOL. That's like saying "killing my boyfriend was a mistake."

what if they deserved it? Self defense? Shitty taste in music? Bought a Mac26x?

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17 hours ago, catsailor said:

Wait, what?? You paid $15,000 for a CLUB 420??

by the time taxes, import fees, exchange rate and shipping were added in it was about that. The exchange rate was by far the biggest hit because the Canadian dollar was at $0.76 to 1USD

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On 7/20/2019 at 4:27 PM, BlatantEcho said:

This is EASILY the stupidest f***** comment I've ever read on this site, EVER.

You think FarEast went ahead, invested in new tooling, new build procedures, went from wet layup to infusion.
They ate the cost of all that tooling, they built and tested new boats themselves. They then didn't change the price of the boats to Sturgis one penny, and sent them like that?

That is just the dumbest idea I've ever ever heard.

 

Sturgis asked them to build infused boats.  They did.
Build quality was *terrible* and boats leak like a seave because everyone took shortcuts.

Now Sturgis has been caught, and are spreading FUD as fast as possible to confuse people like you.

 

And clearly, it's the right strategy, as it's working.
Honestly, your theory is the stupidest thing I've seen posted on the internet.  Congrats.

 

On 7/26/2019 at 1:18 PM, jimx said:

Sturgis is now not returning phone calls or emails to affected families.  Sure some of those families have money.  A lot don’t.

 

Helluva a way to stand by your product. They won’t even make excuses, just silence.

 

The class is firm - these boats were built illegally and are  not one-design.  The idea that Matt Wake didn’t know what was going on is a joke.  Imonce you know what to look for it is blatantly obvious.  They changed it on purpose, didn’t tell the customer, and are now letting them hang out to dry.

 

That’s Sturgis, and in particular, Matt Wake, the owner. This all rests squarely on his shoulders. But since he is shady and a thief, he won’t do anything until a class action lawsuit is filed in court.

They have the money to make it right with all the profit they make off of optis and lasers. 

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23 hours ago, dgmckim said:

absolutely no way it is a mistake. he said he didn't do his diligence in submitting changes to the class, but, his actions make it clear he had no intention of letting the class OR buyers know he had made significant changes to the boat. the sailors should be refunded so they can buy class legal boats. That or be replaced by the builder with new boats that are certified class legal. it's entirely on the builder to make this right. the class and the sailors have no obligation to be sympathetic to him.

"a mistake appears to have been made by the builder (I won't state whether that was deliberate or unintentional.)" Please don't cherry pick statements, it does noone any good. Do you think the builder wanted this mess? Clearly the answer is no, so they have certainly made a "mistake".

There are risks to the class as well as the builder with your approach...just sayin'...be careful what you wish for.

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2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

They have the money to make it right with all the profit they make off of optis and lasers. 

Have you never heard the phrase..."Do you know how to make a million bucks in boats? Start with two million." There's no guarantee that the builder can replace the boats, so have realistic goals. Again, just sayin'.

And to categorically avoid confusion...the builder is totally to blame for this situation and needs to rectify it, if possible.

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To be more precise, they might soon have a class action lawsuit in the works against the builder if there are enough hulls and pissed off Sturgis boat owners. Maybe his insurance will cover it That and the guy who wanted to make bunch of profit off of cheap labor from Fareast is probably hoping his lawyers can help him out of losing everything. 

And he never did anything to help the big Fareast boat line take off in the US.

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7 hours ago, Ncik said:

the builder is totally to blame for this situation and needs to rectify it, if possible.

The builder is certainly to blame for building illegal boats, but there's some evidence that the CA may have taken their eye off the ball when it comes to the far from simple task of maintaining the one design principle. The press release regarding the legality of the Zim boats was less than totally convincing.

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18 hours ago, JimC said:

The builder is certainly to blame for building illegal boats, but there's some evidence that the CA may have taken their eye off the ball when it comes to the far from simple task of maintaining the one design principle. The press release regarding the legality of the Zim boats was less than totally convincing.

I felt the same, but also feel it was probably filed by  Mr. Wake grasping at straws. Speaking on Matt Wake we still haven’t gotten a response from him yet. Apparently it’s not only his boats that are a POS.  I hate thieves and con artists more than powerboaters!

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On 8/4/2019 at 7:57 PM, catsailor said:

BTW, Anyone notice how many brand new users are on this thread? Methinks the C420 builders have a few sock puppets.... 

If you are referring to me I completely understand.  I’m just very pissed off, and because of my position at the YC decided to remain anonymous.  I have dealt with all the builders and think they are all a bit of a pain.  That being said only one has basically stolen $10,000 from a very close friend. And ruined her child’s summer sailing.  So POS2000, Sturgis Boat Works, and Matt Wake FU!!

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^^

Anyone, private or organization, filed suit yet against Sturgis?
Or is what has been offered here exactly the case - $10,000 just isn't enough money for most of the rich families to chase him.
So, his strategy of going underground is going to work and this all blows over?

Still has 4.8stars on google.  I mean, is this actually hurting their business, or is their strategy perfect?
Ignore it, and it will go away?

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On 7/20/2019 at 9:21 PM, jgh66 said:
  1. Use of a resin infusion method and materials for construction that are not class approved.

 The photo on the left is the underside of the bow from an approved Club 420 – the photo on the right is from one of those boats listed as nonconforming.  On the right you will see the honeycomb pattern which indicates an infusion method of construction.  As the Board stated in its July 11, 2019, announcement, using an infusion method of construction affects the durability, boat stiffness, weight and may have other effects not yet evaluated.

1.png2.jpg

 

What this press release tells me: If you build a C420 from aerospace grade carbon fiber epoxy prepregs with nomex core, baked in an autoclav at computer controlled temperatures, but you use as last layer a hand layed CSM and hide everything with a thick layer of white topcoat the boat is class legal. If you use some cheap felt core with polyester resin and forget the last layer of white topcoat the boat is illegal. 

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On 8/7/2019 at 6:38 AM, Sailfasss said:

If you are referring to me I completely understand.  I’m just very pissed off, and because of my position at the YC decided to remain anonymous.  I have dealt with all the builders and think they are all a bit of a pain.  That being said only one has basically stolen $10,000 from a very close friend. And ruined her child’s summer sailing.  So POS2000, Sturgis Boat Works, and Matt Wake FU!!

Why not! He fucked me too!! 

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Restating our position: bought 6 C420s that are not actually C420s.  

This has been a difficult summer of racing for our team. They had to sail soft leaky heavy boats instead of the brand new boats they thought they had. Mostly they made the most of it. 

The class was never structured to be a strict one-design and has not really been governed that way. Given our situation, I checked out hundreds of C420s this summer. The three builders were/are building very different boats; even before this PS2000 situation. And each generation of each builder’s boats have been different. When you walk through a fleet on land, It is blazingly obvious that these boats are not a strict one-design. Many changes have happened with each generation for each builder. This last change was a major one and has been flagged as one bridge too far, and it is. But why are the other changes OK? They violate some of they same criteria the class association has used in its logic to explain their decision.  It’s been close to a free for all... until now.  

There are ~70 boats identified so far. If the class doesn’t help Sturgis/PS2000/Matt Wake find a path to resolution - even if that path is helping sell these boats to fleet buyers and leaning on Far East to create 70 new boats with laminate construction - then the people who will be most impacted are the 70 boat purchasers who will be left holding a >$500,000 investment that has no value b/c it seems likely the builder will not be able to absorb the hit and will therefore fold. You can’t get blood from a stone. Best outcome for the class is to find someway to help PS2000, and thereby the sailors, parents, and associations like ours buying boats, through this. 

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This is not a Fareast Boat Company problem, they produced the product by their proven method of construction for their client. They also have no customer service for their products,  if your boat has a problem down the line, they don’t see that as their problem. They do things differently over there...I can’t see any liability on their part.

Matt Wake has been to the factory in China a number of times. He knows the way the factory works and the construction methods they employ.

It’s a Sturgis Boat Works and PS2000 problem. They are the ones promoting and selling the line of boats they manufactured, albeit, illegally.  It’s the latest Chinese counterfeiting discovered. 

But, it’s faster and cheaper to have them built by infusion and cheap Asian labor if no one catches you!

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16 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

This is not a Fareast Boat Company problem, they produced the product by their proven method of construction for their client. They also have no customer service for their products,  if your boat has a problem down the line, they don’t see that as their problem. They do things differently over there...I can’t see any liability on their part.

Matt Wake has been to the factory in China a number of times. He knows the way the factory works and the construction methods they employ.

It’s a Sturgis Boat Works and PS2000 problem. They are the ones promoting and selling the line of boats they manufactured, albeit, illegally.  It’s the latest Chinese counterfeiting discovered. 

But, it’s faster and cheaper to have them built by infusion and cheap Asian labor if no one catches you!

All great points, but it means nothing if 70 boat owners are screwed. Sturgis, regardless of its role in this, needs the class association to help find a resolution. I will say again, you can’t get blood from a stone. Righteously holding Sturgis solely accountable AND not helping Sturgis and the boat owners to find a resolution, ensures the further screwing of the boat owners. 

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I guess it’s time for Sturgis to reach out to the Class Association then. Best of luck in resolving the situation 

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1 hour ago, frostbit said:

All great points, but it means nothing if 70 boat owners are screwed. Sturgis, regardless of its role in this, needs the class association to help find a resolution. I will say again, you can’t get blood from a stone. Righteously holding Sturgis solely accountable AND not helping Sturgis and the boat owners to find a resolution, ensures the further screwing of the boat owners. 

Why should the class association comprise their rules which the majority of builders seem to have managed to abide by for years?

Especially if the act of doing means that the class is no longer perceived to be one design, and I know many if you will say that it obviously isn’t one design, but if the class deliberately allows illegal boats to be reclassified as legal, then the class ceases to exist as the premium double handed youth racing class in the States.

As a boatbuilder I would accept full responsibility for the product I was selling, even if one of my staff had to do something that put a boat out of class, that my responsibility is mine, no one else’s.

My 2c

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1 minute ago, Major Tom said:

Why should the class association comprise their rules which the majority of builders seem to have managed to abide by for years?

Especially if the act of doing means that the class is no longer perceived to be one design, and I know many if you will say that it obviously isn’t one design, but if the class deliberately allows illegal boats to be reclassified as legal, then the class ceases to exist as the premium double handed youth racing class in the States.

As a boatbuilder I would accept full responsibility for the product I was selling, even if one of my staff had to do something that put a boat out of class, that my responsibility is mine, no one else’s.

My 2c

What I am trying to say is that if the class doesn’t help the builder resolve this then the builder will fail. That will be worse case scenario for all of us who purchased boats. More than $500,000 spent towards sailing in this class will be lost.  That is bad for the class, the sailors, and those of us who bought the boats. High horses are great, but if there is no effort to find a resolution, they will even more negatively impact the innocent buyers who will be left without any recourse. 

The class doesn’t have to compromise anything to help ensure that doesn’t happen. They just need to engage in a practical way to help resolve it. 

 

 

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No boat here in this fight but the topic is very interesting. I've spent many years working with Chinese companies (not boat builders) and the one thing that you must not forget is that to be successful in that part of the world requires very close and frequent supervision of the producer to ensure that whatever it is you are having made is produced as it should be. If you know and accept this, these Chinese producers are very capable. If you try to maximize profits by doing the minimum oversight, you will normally be disappointed.

It would be interesting for the C420 class and owners of non-compliant C420's to compare how, for example, McConaghy (builder of Mach2 Moths in China) does business in China versus Sturgis / PS2000. 

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2 hours ago, Alan Crawford said:

No boat here in this fight but the topic is very interesting. I've spent many years working with Chinese companies (not boat builders) and the one thing that you must not forget is that to be successful in that part of the world requires very close and frequent supervision of the producer to ensure that whatever it is you are having made is produced as it should be. If you know and accept this, these Chinese producers are very capable. If you try to maximize profits by doing the minimum oversight, you will normally be disappointed.

It would be interesting for the C420 class and owners of non-compliant C420's to compare how, for example, McConaghy (builder of Mach2 Moths in China) does business in China versus Sturgis / PS2000. 

Wondering if this will have impact (direct and indirect) on the builders applying to become ILCA approved (For the boat we still call the Laser).

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2 hours ago, frostbit said:

What I am trying to say is that if the class doesn’t help the builder resolve this then the builder will fail. That will be worse case scenario for all of us who purchased boats. More than $500,000 spent towards sailing in this class will be lost.  That is bad for the class, the sailors, and those of us who bought the boats. High horses are great, but if there is no effort to find a resolution, they will even more negatively impact the innocent buyers who will be left without any recourse. 

The class doesn’t have to compromise anything to help ensure that doesn’t happen. They just need to engage in a practical way to help resolve it. 

 

 

Surely the builder deserves to fail if they deliberately misled customers? There seem to be enough other competent and ethical builders out there who would happily fill the gap left in the market. I believe the class association should be assisting the owners of illegal PS2000 420s to take legal action against the supplier, not trying to change the rules to make non class compliant boats legal.

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If I've learned anything from this situation it is that there isn't a big one-design dealer in the middle of South Dakota for some reason. 

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32 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

Surely the builder deserves to fail if they deliberately misled customers? There seem to be enough other competent and ethical builders out there who would happily fill the gap left in the market. I believe the class association should be assisting the owners of illegal PS2000 420s to take legal action against the supplier, not trying to change the rules to make non class compliant boats legal.

I haven’t said anything about trying to make the boats legal. You can’t get blood from a stone. These boats can be used by organizations like colleges and high schools with fleets that won’t be using them in C420 regattas. If the builder fails, nobody gets their money back. Nobody gets a class legal boat. We are all left to fend on our own. The class can help by helping Sturgis. It might feel like justice is served if Sturgis folds. The reality is that it will totally fuck all of us who bought these boats and will also negatively impact availability of parts and boats for all the other classes of boats Sturgis is the New England dealer for. Including the LP C420s. 

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5 minutes ago, frostbit said:

I haven’t said anything about trying to make the boats legal. You can’t get blood from a stone. These boats can be used by organizations like colleges and high schools with fleets that won’t be using them in C420 regattas. If the builder fails, nobody gets their money back. Nobody gets a class legal boat. We are all left to fend on our own. The class can help by helping Sturgis. It might feel like justice is served if Sturgis folds. The reality is that it will totally fuck all of us who bought these boats and will also negatively impact availability of parts and boats for all the other classes of boats Sturgis is the New England dealer for. Including the LP C420s. 

To clarify, when I say you can’t get blood from a stone, I mean that if Sturgis is forced into bankruptcy, then nobody will get anything. Poor placement of the phrase in my post above. 

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This mess is spreading. Getting interesting. Me thinks a certain Dad is maybe playing chicken with clubs using perhaps his kids as a pawn possibly as a basis to start litigation rolling. Not cool. JMHO. YMMV. 

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13 hours ago, Wess said:

This mess is spreading. Getting interesting. Me thinks a certain Dad is maybe playing chicken with clubs using perhaps his kids as a pawn possibly as a basis to start litigation rolling. Not cool. JMHO. YMMV. 

This is interesting what do you mean?

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14 hours ago, Wess said:

This mess is spreading. Getting interesting. Me thinks a certain Dad is maybe playing chicken with clubs using perhaps his kids as a pawn possibly as a basis to start litigation rolling. Not cool. JMHO. YMMV. 

Which is, ironically, how this whole mess started in the first place.
Rich parents want an advantage for their kids so they can use their kids to feel better about themselves - cost be damned.

*****

Kinda fitting that 'more of the same' is the answer to the current situation.

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I certainly didn't say that or anything like that. I get you have a firm view on this mess; I don't.  Not enough facts in public domain to know for sure.  If I had to guess I would say both the builder(s) and class have let down sailors, kids and parents.  And how rich or not any of them are is kinda irrelevant.  Screwed is screwed and the class and builder(s) both appear to have done some screwing. I am simply noting that one parent is maybe pushing things and maybe has an agenda (no judgement intended or implied on the agenda if I am correct about it).

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49 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

Which is, ironically, how this whole mess started in the first place.
Rich parents want an advantage for their kids so they can use their kids to feel better about themselves - cost be damned.

*****

Kinda fitting that 'more of the same' is the answer to the current situation.

Categorically false In this case. People were trying to simply buy C420 boats at and got screwed. I can tell you that we thought we were buying DOWN as Zim’s are the most expensive and seemingly fastest option. If you are genuinely interested in understanding the nuances of the situation, message me and I would be glad to take you through our experience. Otherwise cast aspersions elsewhere. 

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Just so I understand from that last point.  We are talking the PS2000? Which is priced the same as a "laserperformance" c420 on Sturgis? It looks like hte Zim is only 30 dollars different than the other two.image.thumb.png.8fd9b03fae0097c1978d744b08f628f4.png
image.thumb.png.82262a5ce633898a0c8a6a125ba4a668.png

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28 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Just so I understand from that last point.  We are talking the PS2000? Which is priced the same as a "laserperformance" c420 on Sturgis? It looks like hte Zim is only 30 dollars different than the other two.image.thumb.png.8fd9b03fae0097c1978d744b08f628f4.png
image.thumb.png.82262a5ce633898a0c8a6a125ba4a668.png

Sturgis may have offered the best "bulk" buy option between Sturgis and Zim. I would avoid, had all kinds of problems with the entire fleet of FJ's we got from them back in 2010 (mast step issues, bubbles in deck issue, and each and every pintle had to be taken to our maintenance facility and welded to prevent failure).

 

Also. Goddamn, 230lbs for a hull. Hard to believe I forgot they were that heavy with all of the boats I've lifted over the years. Why the hell are we still sailing these things...The 29er hull is what, 140lbs?

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Our cost is more complicated than the list price. 

We could get good fleet purchase discounts for LPs and PS2000s. Either set were supposed to be Orange Bowl charter boats.  We had previous terrible experiences with LP. Poor build quality and when we last updated the 6 race team boats 8 years ago, we had to reject the entire first delivery b/c they were crap. 

We had 16 LPs and ancient Vanguards. We sold the worst 6 boats and purchased 6 new PS2000s. 

The cost differential in the ZIM was much higher than $30. Also, the ZIM parts are not all interchangeable with the LPs, so we felt they would be more expensive to maintain. We are a non-profit that pulls 200+ unique kids a summer through a learn to sail program. These boats were to be used by the race team for the next 8 years. 

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My name is Tim Murphy email is tmurphy8937@gmail.com. I am writing to hopefully identify other customers who are victims of Sturgis PS2000 Matt Wake Enterptise debacle. I and 2 other people in our fleet  purchased  new PS2000's in March 2019. TERRIBLE leaking problems and TERRIBLE build quality from the first day. Ultimately 2 days before c420 NAs in SF we were told these boats were illegal by the Class. We had to incur charter fees and now storage fees as Sturgis won't take the boats back. Matt Wake has been entirely unresponsive and I feel now the only way to effect a response is via an attorney as he has left no other path. Countless emails and calls have gone without response. The Class has been of little support as well only offering vague reassurances and no substantive way forward. Response has been poor and slow as well. As I know many people follow this site I am hoping to contact as many people as possible who are in the same position as I am to join together to hopefully secure a favorable outcome for us and the sailors who are without boats. Look forward to hearing from people.

 

Tim Murphy

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If you used a Credit card to make any portion of the purchase, you can contact them and try to get your money back. They protect you against fraudulent purchases. Sorry about your problem.

I’m sure Matt knows who I am and he must be crawling around very low at the Hyannis Yacht Club bar...

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

If you used a Credit card to make any portion of the purchase, you can contact them and try to get your money back. They protect you against fraudulent purchases. Sorry about your problem.

I’m sure Matt knows who I am and he must be crawling around very low at the Hyannis Yacht Club bar...

I’m thinking of flying to Cape Cod and stopping by Sturgis. Plus our club has reciprocity with Hyannis Yacht Club.  Matt if you are reading this be sure to say hi.  

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You won’t find Matt at Sturgis unless you have money to give him. 

He’ll be at HYC for coffee am and cocktails pm.

Nothing against coffee or cocktails...

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7 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

You won’t find Matt at Sturgis unless you have money to give him. 

He’ll be at HYC for coffee am and cocktails pm.

Nothing against coffee or cocktails...

Surprised he’s not to embarrassed to show up at his club.  He obviously never sold any 19 boats to fellow members.  Or they have been made whole.  Looks like his wife is a redhead so they can’t hide that easily. Haha

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The whole stalking the wife thing is more than a little creepy.  Or even the dude at the club.  Get a life.  The courts exist to deal with this kind of stuff.

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13 hours ago, Wess said:

The whole stalking the wife thing is more than a little creepy.  Or even the dude at the club.  Get a life.  The courts exist to deal with this kind of stuff.

Never said I was stalking his wife.  Just commented that she sticks out as a redhead.  They won’t be easy to miss.  No problem with her just how he’s handed this situation.  By the way do you work for him?

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17 minutes ago, Sailfasss said:

Never said I was stalking his wife.  Just commented that she sticks out as a redhead.  They won’t be easy to miss.  No problem with her just how he’s handed this situation.  By the way do you work for him?

It's still creepy as fuck.

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10 hours ago, Sailfasss said:

Never said I was stalking his wife.  Just commented that she sticks out as a redhead.  They won’t be easy to miss.  No problem with her just how he’s handed this situation.  By the way do you work for him?

No.

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I don't work for him. Heck, he seems like a shithead. But that doesn't mean you publicly stalk and out him. He has a business address. That's more than good enough. He hasn't run from that. And like previously mentioned, there is a civil way to deal with this problem.

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Well he hasn’t returned mail or phone calls, so I’d say he’s the creep.  Not to worry we’ve been contacted by a lawyer representing someone in Texas who’s going after him. They’ve informed us it’s not only open shut case he’s going for damages, loss of use and charter fees.   

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1 hour ago, Sailfasss said:

Well he hasn’t returned mail or phone calls, so I’d say he’s the creep.  Not to worry we’ve been contacted by a lawyer representing someone in Texas who’s going after him. They’ve informed us it’s not only open shut case he’s going for damages, loss of use and charter fees.   

I am not a lawyer but its probably a bad idea to discuss any potential litigation in a place like this. You could hurt your case but I would think that this lawyer has already told you that.

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1 hour ago, Sailfasss said:

Well he hasn’t returned mail or phone calls, so I’d say he’s the creep.  

The s*** has hit the fan in a big way, he knows it has. He might just be ostriching, but more likely desperately trying to find a fix and kidding himself he hasn't kept anyone waiting very long yet... But foolish to ignore big rule of customer service which is when theres trouble keep communicating even if you have nothing to say.

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2 hours ago, Sailfasss said:

Well he hasn’t returned mail or phone calls, so I’d say he’s the creep.  Not to worry we’ve been contacted by a lawyer representing someone in Texas who’s going after him. They’ve informed us it’s not only open shut case he’s going for damages, loss of use and charter fees.   

... I'd walk away from a lawyer who tells you it's an open and shut case.

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3 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

... I'd walk away from a lawyer who tells you it's an open and shut case.

I'd walk away from a legal services client who stalks the other party on public internut forums.

 

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8 hours ago, fastyacht said:

I'd walk away from a legal services client who stalks the other party on public internut forums.

 

Get over yourself, Matt Wake defrauded over 30 purchasers of 50 boats.  You are taking his side for 1 of 2 reasons. You are associated with him or are storing the pot.  We don’t care either way, just get a life.  

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3 hours ago, Sailfasss said:

Get over yourself, Matt Wake defrauded over 30 purchasers of 50 boats.  You are taking his side for 1 of 2 reasons. You are associated with him or are storing the pot.  We don’t care either way, just get a life.  

Idiot.  Its stirring the pot.  Not storing the pot.  Those kind of details matter.  Like the detail where you indicated you didn't own one of these boats.  So it seems a bit odd that you would be claiming now to be retaining a lawyer. And you seem to be the one stirring. Anybody who owns one of these and wanted to pursue litigation would be working quietly with counsel not blabbering like a fool in an internet forum. 

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58 minutes ago, Wess said:

Idiot.  Its stirring the pot.  Not storing the pot.  Those kind of details matter.  Like the detail where you indicated you didn't own one of these boats.  So it seems a bit odd that you would be claiming now to be retaining a lawyer. And you seem to be the one stirring. Anybody who owns one of these and wanted to pursue litigation would be working quietly with counsel not blabbering like a fool in an internet forum. 

Sorry if my autocorrect changed a word, I’m well aware of the saying.  I also said my GF has a boat that was bought for her daughter.  They live with me, but I didn’t pay she did.  So as I said I don’t own one of these boats. I wonder why you are defending Sturgis so much. Hmmm 

 

I'm not involved in the lawsuit, and nobody knows who I am so I blabber all I want.  I’ve given out no info that isn’t known by the masses. 

 

Last thing Wess FU

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I got screwed by Matt personally and it seriously hurt my fledgling business Wess, so trying to insert decorum into this mess and calling someone an idiot has no place in this conversation.

I suggest you let the affected parties have their say and you stand down on this one...

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Thanks for sharing your thoughts about rules on an Anarchy Internet forum. I think I know where to file them!

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... the same place my $9,500 almost went if I weren’t diligent enough to secure payment through a fraud protected account, I suppose!

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Wow.

The only thing that creeps me out is the stalking. Especially anything about his wife.

Creepy as fuck.

And why would an attorney run? Because such a client is likely to fuck up his own case.

 

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On 8/15/2019 at 10:42 PM, Sail4beer said:

... the same place my $9,500 almost went if I weren’t diligent enough to secure payment through a fraud protected account, I suppose!

We weren’t so lucky, but on the flip side he had us mail a check.  Guess what we mailed it USPS. That is a whole new set of charges.  Gotta love mail fraud.  

 

On 8/16/2019 at 12:20 AM, fastyacht said:

Wow.

The only thing that creeps me out is the stalking. Especially anything about his wife.

Creepy as fuck.

And why would an attorney run? Because such a client is likely to fuck up his own case.

 

Hey has anyone seen Fastyacht and Matt wake in the same room? I’m starting to think they are the same person. Haha

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And for the record, nobody is stalking anyone. He was just making a statement and venting. If he happened to see Matt at a club, boat show or  sailing event, I would expect him to confront Matt in person( if his wife and kids are not there)since Matt will not return any phone calls or emails from his business phone or business computer. He has done a lot of people wrong over the years...So let’s not worry about creepy shit and all that. I know where to find Matt if I need to. He has a business address I’ve been to and I personally wouldn’t want to involve his wife or kids in any of this. 

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15 hours ago, Sailfasss said:

We weren’t so lucky, but on the flip side he had us mail a check.  Guess what we mailed it USPS. That is a whole new set of charges.  Gotta love mail fraud.  

 

Hey has anyone seen Fastyacht and Matt wake in the same room? I’m starting to think they are the same person. Haha

Well I guess I really am still anonymous.  Because if you knew who I was...you wouldn't say such preposterous things.
What really surprises me is your extraordinary ability to deflect. Once again, you stalking his wife (which is what describing her and where to find her) is.

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13 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Well I guess I really am still anonymous.  Because if you knew who I was...you wouldn't say such preposterous things.
What really surprises me is your extraordinary ability to deflect. Once again, you stalking his wife (which is what describing her and where to find her) is.

Who’s deflecting?? Haha

You've tried to redirect the convo away from the fact Wake has screwed over 30 people and the owners of 50 boats.  This was not a build error or mistake in materials used is was a scam.  The fact the molds were altered for the CB trunk is proof of that.  So do us all a favor and STFU. 

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4 hours ago, Sailfasss said:

Who’s deflecting?? Haha

You've tried to redirect the convo away from the fact Wake has screwed over 30 people and the owners of 50 boats.  This was not a build error or mistake in materials used is was a scam.  The fact the molds were altered for the CB trunk is proof of that.  So do us all a favor and STFU. 

No, I am not deflecting that basic issue whatsoever. That's all the real problem and lawsuits are in play and that will get sorted out one way or the other. I called you out for your creeper stalking public outing of his wife. That's the only reason I replied to your post. But you refuse to see your statements as creepy. So here we are discussing it ad nauseam.

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