smackdaddy

SailGP 2019

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2 minutes ago, Manfred said:

Just coming home and video not ready yet for a replay, even on the App. Therefore many thanks for the very interesting recap!

There’s a 2 hour highlights on YouTube a couple of hours ago. 

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5 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Did you see that Sommersault from Chris Draper:D Maybe he should go "Diving" and not "Sailing":D

Hah! That really is a Great joke! So Clever! Well done! Mum would be so proud!

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19 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@smackdaddy,

All the ranting over in the "Larry AC Circus" Thread about Boats taken out of their comfort Zone is really ammusing & hilarious. Today we had the same conditions 22-25 Knots we had during the Semifinals Day in BDA when ETNZ capsized.

The only Difference we probably had today was the chop but that's about it.

Consistent ranting over SailGP over there is really annoying. I'm so glad you put up this Thread:)

Yeah - there really is no point arguing with those guys - there or here. They are very clearly so bitter, so wrong, and so wrapped up in their heads there is no hope for a rational discussion. That's why I couldn't give a single damn about what they think about anything really.

Stay tuned for Race 2 recap coming up...

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RACE 2

The little fat kid with the sandwich board filling everyone in...

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And did we mention the insane crowds?

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Word has it, this guy was beaten and left for dead...very politely of course...

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Conditions still sporty - but the water has laid down a bit...

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GBR announces their withdrawal with several breakages (gutted for them)...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-3.30.57-PM.png

And JPN is sailing a very broken boat (notice the pedestal)...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-3.31.38-PM.png

Lining up for the start...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-3.32.13-PM.png

...

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Coming in tightly packed with AUS/JPN pulling out front (as usual)...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-3.32.44-PM.png

And they are off...with Slingers nearing 50 AGAIN! And FRA is already carrying a box boundary penalty. It will take a while for them to notice...

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Having learnt their lesson from R1, coming in a bit looser this time...with Nathan picking the outside again and FRA and USA on the inside again...

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...coming into the bear-away...

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Slingsby ripping again...but much more controlled...

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And everyone else coming in while giving much more room...Outteridge is screaming up the outside again...

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Same old story...

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How the hell do you beat this guy? No - I mean Slingsby - not this guy...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-3.29.14-PM.png

 

 

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...Incredible photography...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-3.38.11-PM.png

FRA finally sees the red light and backs down behind CHN...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-3.39.31-PM.png

This opens the door for USA...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-3.40.10-PM.png

...who is sailing with a busted up boat (look at the flapping film above the flag in the vid...)

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AUS is already around as USA/JPN/CHN shoot for the gap...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-3.41.05-PM.png

CHN plays a better layline and stuffs USA...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-3.41.47-PM.png

Yep, JPN's pedestal is still limp...even though they continue to hold 2nd place...

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AUS brings it home with insane speed yet again...

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And, believe it or not, CHN passes JPN and reels in 2nd!

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-3.44.13-PM.png

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And finally,

RACE 3

The very handy Brits have turned the liferaft barrel into a beer keg and are completely RedJetting out of their minds...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-4.47.06-PM.png

You REALLY need to watch the video here and see just how messed up JPN's pedestal is. You'll be amazed that these guys are still holding their own!!! Seriously impressive.

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1.4m chop - and remember this is after the Solent has "calmed down" a good bit...

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Boundary penalties pior to start on AUS/CHN/USA. This really opens the door for FRA and JPN...

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And here they go...

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USA/JPN/FRA now racing again...AUS is at the back of the pack - out of the picture...

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FRA is now flying - pulling away for the first time EVER! But look at AUS' speed...

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FRA stuffs it on the bear away... "The Merde Heard Round The World"

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USA/AUS roll under...where the hell did AUS come from????

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-4.57.02-PM.png

...

 

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...hammering to the mark - side-by-side...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-4.57.20-PM.png

And AUS begins pulling away into FREAKIN' FIRST PLACE!!!!! AGAIN!!!! FROM LAST!!!!!!

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Beautiful footage yet again...

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But Slingers makes a mistake...

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And now the door opens a bit for the other 3...FRA and USA make the turn...

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But JPN follows AUS toward the pub...

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So now, surely, FRA and USA have a chance...

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Nope. And it seems China is pulling up on the fleet...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-5.01.22-PM.png

...

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I'd say that's pretty close to shore. ShanghaiSailor was there an should be putting out a write-up soon. Can you spot him?

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-5.01.56-PM.png

Now suddenly CHN is pulling ahead of JPN?

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AUS is just unstoppable. I mean seriously...it's not even fair...

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FRA nails their bear away..."The SUPERB Heard Round the World"...

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Then CHN stuffs it - opening th door for JPN...

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And JPN takes advantage...

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You just have to shake your head. From dead last - to here...

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But look at freakin' FRA rollin' up like a boss...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-5.11.16-PM.png

Just a great day of racing. Thanks SailGP!

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And my last offering for the day...

It's official - 50 knots in a race. Without question SailGP is in a league of its own now...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-8.02.21-PM.png

Fun day. But I need a scotch and shiatsu!

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4 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Cowes SailGP Leaderboard

EBtH6Z4XsAIs5Y6.jpg

SailGP Season 1 Leaderboard after 4 of 5 Events

EBtH6Z0WkAAqjIm.jpg

The US team has some major problems with developing speed with the F50.  The third place standings is mostly from having the least problem/breakage among the bottom 4 boats.  I know they had some breakage, but as you watch the races they are typically slower then most of the other boats.  It looks like they do not know how to handle the F50 for speed.  In the second race on day 1, China passed them like they were in a 12 meter!

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Interesting article by Phillippe Presti (Aus Coach) on loading up the rudder and new algorithms for exceeding 50knots 

"300 kilos of booster at 50 knots is not a lot. It must be able to go up to 800 without dangerously soliciting the structure"

SailGP Philippe Presti Voille 

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SO because we can't watch it we get screen shot from smackhead?

Sailing the we cannot watch? How fucked is that?

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12 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

You can see the damage to the JPN boat at 18:23.

No, Video Unavailable.

How fucked is that!

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It’s on YouTube and was available an hour or two after the event. 

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I guess that's why you linked it.  Only highlights and other bullshit on their youtube channel.  I have been geoblocked before.

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3 minutes ago, random said:

I guess that's why you linked it.  Only highlights and other bullshit on their youtube channel.  I have been geoblocked before.

It was over 2 hours and showed pretty much all of it, don’t watch it if you don’t want to. Doesn’t bother me. 

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Me neither.  I was starting to get interested till the shills here turned me off.

If they have to push that hard to get paying eyeballs there is something wrong.

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Thanks for your commentary and highlight photos Smack, you made it very entertaining, does anyone know why the American boat didn't release its main as it was fighting to stay up

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20 minutes ago, madboutcats said:

Thanks for your commentary and highlight photos Smack, you made it very entertaining, does anyone know why the American boat didn't release its main as it was fighting to stay up

Yeah Smack User is pointing "to something shiny over there!" because no watch the fucking race if we wanted to.

Funni as shit really.  He can't dance for shit.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, random said:

Yeah Smack User is pointing "to something shiny over there!" because no watch the fucking race if we wanted to.

Funni as shit really.  He can't dance for shit.

 

 

Drinking again!! 

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11 hours ago, Herfy said:

The US team has some major problems with developing speed with the F50.  The third place standings is mostly from having the least problem/breakage among the bottom 4 boats.  I know they had some breakage, but as you watch the races they are typically slower then most of the other boats.  It looks like they do not know how to handle the F50 for speed.  In the second race on day 1, China passed them like they were in a 12 meter!

I agree. But it's really the same with CHN, GBR, and FRA for the most part. Remember that USA won a race in NY - which were also pretty crazy conditions. So I think there are two factors at play here:

1. Height on the foils.

The higher they are the faster they are. But that brings up...

2. Stability/consistency on the foils.

These bottom 4 boats just don't yet have the ability to consistently control their boats on the foils. GBR is a great example of what happens when you start making improvements in this area. Their performance in the practice races showed that they were clearly making gains. BUT, Sunday also showed that there are only 2 teams capable of truly pushing it AND having that consistent control: JPN and AUS.

Again, with the experience on those 2 boats, you can certainly understand why. Especially in the case of USA/FRA, Rome and Billy are both very raw talent with very little experience in foilers. Sure, Rome has 1 Moth Bronze on the mantle - but that right there should tell you something about the performance level of these boats. It truly is like stepping into an F1 car from karts. At least Billy came out of the Nacra world...though I'm not sure that's a great segue either.

And then you have Dylan Fletcher. Coming from 49ers to this - and being the first to 50? He deserves real kudos.

So, I think that's what is so cool about this development/one-design/data-sharing model of SailGP. It's purely about the talent onboard. The boats are clearly capable of insane speeds. So the only question is can you keep the thing fast and under control and avoid breakages? If you can you win. Simple.

 

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2 hours ago, madboutcats said:

Thanks for your commentary and highlight photos Smack, you made it very entertaining, does anyone know why the American boat didn't release its main as it was fighting to stay up

No worries madabout - glad you enjoy it. It's fun for me.

On the USA thing, on the video they did blow the wing. But, the trimmer got flicked out of the hullpit (or whatever you call those things) and couldn't immediately unwrap. He did a great job of scrambling up the net trying to do his job - but just didn't make it in time. It was pretty cool.

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9 hours ago, chesirecat said:

Interesting article by Phillippe Presti (Aus Coach) on loading up the rudder and new algorithms for exceeding 50knots 

"300 kilos of booster at 50 knots is not a lot. It must be able to go up to 800 without dangerously soliciting the structure"

SailGP Philippe Presti Voille 

Wow - that is a GREAT article. Thanks Chesire. One of the things I went around on with the whingers is that these top speeds are coming from telemetry that factors out current, etc. They couldn't seem to get their heads around that...which, in retrospect, really isn't that surprising I suppose.

Phillippe does a great job explaining that - as well as why we are only STARTING to see the speed potential of these boats...

Quote

Philippe Presti : The story of the 50 knots is above all technical. On these boats, there is on board a device, called "rudder differential", which allows you to manage the finned rudder in the wind and the one in the wind.

The leeward one will push the boat up while the one in the wind prevents the boat from too much "compensating", sort of. For the moment, the system is tuned to a difference of angle between the two rudders (rudders, NDLR) of 6 degrees. When you accelerate, the rudder in the wind does not push anymore but on the contrary, pulls down, it adds torque correction, as if there were more people to the recall.

The faster the boat accelerates, the more this force increases. So, it avoids the breakage, as it happened on the last America's Cup in Bermuda where appendages were torn off due to errors in setting angles at high speeds.

Pushed more finely into its limits

In short, to avoid breaking the structure, the F50 have the rudder differential which is an electronic system with an algorithm reducing this differential as speed increases.

Until now, this algorithm was no longer effective beyond 45 knots, no longer allowing to create the righting torque but instead of the heel. This algorithm has just been changed and allows to maintain torque above 50 knots. At this speed, this new algorithm can generate another 300 kilos of thrust down. The boat has not changed, so it's just pushed more finely into its limits.

Sails and Sailboats: It is "unbridled", in a way!

Philippe Presti : That's exactly it and the increase in performance comes from there; it's like putting more crew members on the recall. Another interesting fact is that, when we put as I did in our record at 51.24 knots, independent GPS that do not take into account, like those of the electronic unit of the boat, acceleration or current predictions - which can rise to 3 or 4 knots on the Cowes waterbody - can be seen at much higher speeds.

One of my GPS told me a speed over background greater than 57 knots! Because it did not take into account neither the current, nor the fact that it was placed on the hull in the wind, faster than that downwind in case of slaughter. It's like running fast on a 400-meter track either inside or outside the track.

At 50 knots, they begin to cavitate

All that to say that the F50 can surely go even faster if we decide to change the algorithm again to load more the boat.

300 kilos of booster at 50 knots is not a lot. It must be able to go up to 800 without dangerously soliciting the structure. After, if we want to go even faster, it will work on the foils, even if those used are already bluffing. It is only at 50 knots that they begin to cavitate ... They are already very successful.

Definitely worth the read.

My earlier question still stands - for you hydroengineering types - how do you minimize cavitation? Possible?

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The trimmer was hanging from the mainsheet so he couldn't ease it until he crawled back up.

I seem to have missed some details (was traveling, skimmed the talking head parts of the video). 

- Why was race 3 rushed without a chance for Japan to assess / repair? SF and NYC afforded these chances. Was the weather window limiting?

- Where was the interview with Nathan, asking him how his day was going? :-)

- Will there be a final race at Cowes? More races coming? Or is that all?

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One other very interesting factor in these Sunday races was that the race was shortened while they were racing. So with everything else going on onboard, these guys have to then change their lap count, tactics, etc. This is seriously demanding racing. Obviously, I love it.

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12 minutes ago, martin.langhoff said:

The trimmer was hanging from the mainsheet so he couldn't ease it until he crawled back up.

I seem to have missed some details (was traveling, skimmed the talking head parts of the video). 

- Why was race 3 rushed without a chance for Japan to assess / repair? SF and NYC afforded these chances. Was the weather window limiting?

- Where was the interview with Nathan, asking him how his day was going? :-)

- Will there be a final race at Cowes? More races coming? Or is that all?

That's it for Cowes. The schedule was completely reliant on the constraints of television time. That's why they shortened R1 during the race - and why they just kept everything moving. Even then they went over their time slot a bit.

So, between that and losing Saturday due to weather there was a tremendous amount of pressure to get as much racing done as possible. So they blew off the match and just ran 3 full-fleet winner-takes-all heats. I think that was a good call.

Again, a lot of the whingers went on and on about the tv thing. And, yes, it provides yet another aspect of pressure to the entire event (on top of weather, logistics, breakages, electronics outages, etc.)...but all that pressure makes for damn exciting racing.

This is completely the opposite of steering a golf cart around a flat Bermuda-grass putting green with 8 knots of breeze. I think that's great.

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Ok that explains. Thanks.

Anyone here thinks Japan just got a lemon boat? They keep getting serious breakage, event after event, and they don't seem to be forcing the boat -- sailing these boats wrong is what risks breakage. Nate must me seething.

As a sidenote, I think we should keep this thread clear of whining, including whining about the whiners. 

 

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Some of the most dramatic and exciting racing I have ever seen, I was totally absorbed. And the Ed disses it today on the Front Page??????? He sure behaves like a hater.

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42 minutes ago, AClass USA 230 said:

Some of the most dramatic and exciting racing I have ever seen, I was totally absorbed. And the Ed disses it today on the Front Page??????? He sure behaves like a hater.

+1

Like most others, I don't usually look at the FP. I know SS was at the event and will be doing a write-up. I will definitely look at his stuff. But for the most part, the FP is rarely compelling.

As for theEd (and others), the amount of hysterical butthurt surrounding this event is truly mind-bending. I honestly just don't get it. But at the end of the day, these bitter rants really mean nothing. It all boils down to this:

1. Is it great racing? (You've already spoken to that..and records are falling left and right - and it's just getting started.)

2. Are great sailors drawn to it? (Obviously.)

3. Are people interested in watching it? (see above and below)

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-3.28.33-PM.png

(Plus even the whingers are upset about not being able to see it because it's apparently GeoBlocked in some areas).

4. Does it have a future? (See all the above.)

Who knows where SailGP will go in the long term. But one thing is very, very clear...it's completely changing the face of sailboat racing (in virtually every single aspect) for the better. No amount of hating and whinging is going to change that. I think the Bernie Ecclestone comparison is right on here.

And this is just the very first freakin' season!!

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Chris Draper talks about his truly sick ragdoll move. I love his attitude. Check out Stuart Bithell desperately trying to save it right before everything goes white...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-12-at-12.56.54-PM.pn

The stakes are very real here.

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4 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Wow - that is a GREAT article. Thanks Chesire. One of the things I went around on with the whingers is that these top speeds are coming from telemetry that factors out current, etc. They couldn't seem to get their heads around that...which, in retrospect, really isn't that surprising I suppose.

Phillippe does a great job explaining that - as well as why we are only STARTING to see the speed potential of these boats...

Definitely worth the read.

My earlier question still stands - for you hydroengineering types - how do you minimize cavitation? Possible?

Actually that article *confirms* what @Woolfy was saying - it specifically states that the 51.24 knots was SOG (speed over ground) and did not take into account (and thus minus) the 3-4 knots of current running in the solent. It says quite the opposite to what you appear to think it says. Obviously an independent GPS unit has no way of knowing the current. He goes on to point out how inaccurate GPS can be by showing that just being on the outside line of the boat as it turns resulted in a speed of 57 knots.

The article also specifically says the current foils cavitate at 50knots. You *do* know what happens once a foil cavitates right? Lift dies and the foils stall and the boat slows down back to below cavitation speed.

It's relatively common knowledge amongst anyone with a passing interest in foiling that minimising cavitation at and beyond 50knots in a foil on an AC50/F50 is incredibly hard - basically you will arrive at a much more unstable foil design and one that doesn't provide as much lift at lower speeds. You need an amazing flight control system - which right now the F50 doesn't really have. The reality is that these boats aren't really going any quicker through the water than they have been at previous regattas, which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that understands the physics at play given they are using the same foils. Real, solid 50knots+ through the water will require new foils, a new better flight control system, and much better sailing.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11848839

50 knots is essentially a design barrier, to cross you need something very different than what these boats currently have...

http://chevaliertaglang.blogspot.com/2012/12/clearing-50-knot-gate-hydrofoil.html

The AC/F50 that has the best chance of breaking it would need the type of flight control system that would let you use such highly unstable foils.

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There is an SGP video about all this, but as expected it's all hyperbole designed to convince the clueless and easily bamboozled with vague hand waving... the top comments on said video from the great unwashed are certainly interesting reading...

1355412759_ScreenShot2019-08-13at7_03_57AM.png.92e1d76a378a3fb949850875075fc5dd.png

etc etc

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A view of the SailGP boats from a kitefoil at 6:15 in this vid:

 

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^^^ THAT is freakin' awesome! Thanks hump!

"There's some foiling boats going bloody quick. It's quite cool being in amongst them."

There you have it!

What a thigh-burner that trip would be. I can't even imagine.

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23 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Relax, I am not going to be a regular  troll here. I know I was asked to stay away...

Clew, as far as I'm concerned, you're welcome here. I don't think I asked anyone not to come here - it was the opposite in fact. This thread is for those willing to not spend all their time endlessly crapping on SailGP or going in endless vendetta loops with each other. As you rightly note, there's already a long-standing thread for that.

And there are lots of us here actually enjoying SailGP.

So, as long as it's rational discussion, it's not trolling. It's all good.

Of course, this seems to be a bit on the line...

Quote

So reactions in the other forum comment on a lot of aspects, not just a pure 2019-on spectator perspective.

You're now advertising the other thread in this thread? That's pretty damn funny.

Buy an ad! Heh.

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I'm curious - can everyone see the full event video up on FB ? Is it geo-blocked for anyone? Just trying to figure that one out.

Screen-Shot-2019-08-12-at-3.16.08-PM.png

PS - Half a million views doesn't suck.

 

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And I think this is from when AUS broke the fitty...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-12-at-3.24.18-PM.png

 

From tactician to foiling titan. Slingsby is something special. That much is clear.

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If you don't have the app - you should get it...

As I said above - it's really changing everything in terms of how to watch racing from a much more technical and detailed perspective.

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3 hours ago, rh3000 said:

The article also specifically says the current foils cavitate at 50knots. You *do* know what happens once a foil cavitates right? Lift dies and the foils stall and the boat slows down back to below cavitation speed...

You're quoting a popular misconception! 

Cavitation generally increases the drag, and it can impact the lift, but it doesn't have to cause a stall or be particularly catastrophic. Given enough power, the AC-50's can keep getting faster, even if they can't avoid cavitation.

Here's some old NACA test data that illustrates my point. (Wartime Report L-758). (Note that on each curve, cavitation is present at all speeds greater than the vertical arrows.)

CavitationEffects.thumb.jpg.dbadd2892f90eefcda20241e38393b8b.jpg 

 

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Regarding the questions around telemetry, there is a brief explanation here of the equipment onboard that provides the data and how it is computed thereafter (video should be cued up at the right spot 5:49 on click)...

This is not your standard GPS or paddle wheel speed transducer.

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4 minutes ago, Doug Halsey said:

Cavitation generally increases the drag, and it can impact the lift, but it doesn't have to cause a stall or be particularly catastrophic. Given enough power, the AC-50's can keep getting faster, even if they can't avoid cavitation.

Thanks Doug. That's what I was wondering.

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Thanks Mad. I don't know what the geo-block strategy is...but it definitely doesn't make sense to me to block any of the replay videos. Can people see them with the app in AUS?

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Holy crap - I posted the "live racing" replay link above 4 hours ago. Compare those views to now...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-12-at-7.59.45-PM.png

It's going to break 1 million very soon....in just a day or so. Not bad for something no one cares about. Heh.

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2 hours ago, Doug Halsey said:

You're quoting a popular misconception! 

Cavitation generally increases the drag, and it can impact the lift, but it doesn't have to cause a stall or be particularly catastrophic. Given enough power, the AC-50's can keep getting faster, even if they can't avoid cavitation.

Here's some old NACA test data that illustrates my point. (Wartime Report L-758). (Note that on each curve, cavitation is present at all speeds greater than the vertical arrows.)

CavitationEffects.thumb.jpg.dbadd2892f90eefcda20241e38393b8b.jpg 

 

The speed shown in those charts is feet per second, and only go as far as ~48 knots on the 0° foil... so it's difficult to draw any conclusions about AC50/F50 foils' lift/drag performance as it relates to cavitation... but in principle you are right, it is possible for a foil of a specific design to still provide lift after cavitation - that's what the Vestas Sail Rocket foil that I linked to can achieve. The current AC50/F50 foils? Hmmmm...

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7 hours ago, rh3000 said:

He goes on to point out how inaccurate GPS can be by showing that just being on the outside line of the boat as it turns resulted in a speed of 57 knots.

I think this confirms that they are not just using the GPS speed.  Otherwise they would be claiming the top speed was 57 knots.  It wasn't the clearest explanation, but I think what they were saying is that they compensate for varying situations with other measuring devices.

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15 minutes ago, efrank said:

I think this confirms that they are not just using the GPS speed.  Otherwise they would be claiming the top speed was 57 knots.  It wasn't the clearest explanation, but I think what they were saying is that they compensate for varying situations with other measuring devices.

Yeah, I think this is right. I've put the question to Scott Babbage. I'll let you know what I hear back.

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5 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Thanks Mad. I don't know what the geo-block strategy is...but it definitely doesn't make sense to me to block any of the replay videos. Can people see them with the app in AUS?

If only I knew how to do Apps, I will try and do it, also I must apologise I clicked what I thought was a like vote on a couple of posts on my i pad and coming to the big computer realised they are downvotes anyway they are changed, please keep the great flow of info going 

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3 hours ago, rh3000 said:

The speed shown in those charts is feet per second, and only go as far as ~48 knots on the 0° foil... so it's difficult to draw any conclusions about AC50/F50 foils' lift/drag performance as it relates to cavitation... but in principle you are right, it is possible for a foil of a specific design to still provide lift after cavitation - that's what the Vestas Sail Rocket foil that I linked to can achieve. The current AC50/F50 foils? Hmmmm...

Cavitation depends a great deal on the details of the specific section shape, its loading, and the 3D interference effects.  For example, cavitation occurs earlier on the inside of junctions and elbows of L foils because the flow around the vertical and horizontal panels combines to increase the velocity (and decrease the pressure) there.  NACA data are useful for calibrating prediction methods, but they're not that directly relevant to modern designs.  Today designers have much better tools (like Xfoil) that allow them to specify pressure distributions that lie just below the cavitation threshold and calculate the shapes that will produce those tailored pressure distributions.

Whether or not there's a big change in lift with cavitation depends on how extensive the cavitating region is.  Depending on the section shape, cavitation at high speed may begin near the maximum thickness point and gradually spread as the speed or loading increase.  Or, if the designer was successful at preventing cavitation earlier, it may set in more suddenly.  Basically, when the flow cavitates, the minimum pressure becomes constant - equal to vapor pressure.  So it sort of chops off whatever the pressure distribution might have been in the absence of cavitation, and that is the lift loss.

It's not hard to design sections to not cavitate and still provide enough thickness for good structural stiffness up to around 40 kt.  As you start to design for higher speeds, there's not a lot more that can be done with shaping, and the foils have to get thinner.  Above 50 kt, it's really, really hard to make a foil that is thin enough not to cavitate, but still thick enough to carry the loads, especially through the elbow, where the bending moment is high.  It takes a lot of close cooperation between the hydrodynamic engineers and the structural engineers because they both have to push things to the absolute limit.

There is a substantial drag penalty with cavitation.  It's a bit like the wave drag increase around hull speed.  It doesn't mean you can't go faster than that speed, but chances are the boat is already pretty close to the thrust it can produce for the righting moment available, so the extra drag becomes pretty limiting with regard to the speed.  More righting moment means you can sheet on harder and push through the drag increase, which is what Phillipe Presti was getting at with the rudder foil differential.  The current wingsails are all-round designs that have to work in light air and heavy, and were sized by the AC50 Design Rule.  It'd be interesting to see what the boats might do if they had a wingsail that was optimized for higher winds.  Just like a reefed sail is faster than a bigger sail that has to be flogged to limit the heeling moment.

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Thanks Basilicus. That's a great explanation. I too look forward to seeing the heavy air wings. I've not seen good detail on the difference between the light air and heavy air foils in terms of shape and thickness - but that detail would be good too.

At the end of the day, it's just really cool to actually be dealing with the physical limits on these boats. How will they deal with them and go even faster?

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9 hours ago, madboutcats said:

If only I knew how to do Apps, I will try and do it, also I must apologise I clicked what I thought was a like vote on a couple of posts on my i pad and coming to the big computer realised they are downvotes anyway they are changed, please keep the great flow of info going 

-On your iPad, go to the app store...

001_download-apps-to-ipad-1999821-de2ae6

-Once the App Store opens, Hit the search icon in the lower bar on the right side.

-Type in SailGP

-You'll see the app there. Just download and you're golden.

 

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21 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

 

 

PS - Half a million views doesn't suck.

 

certainly sucks up the promotional money they spent to get them (~$50k per event...)

Compare with youtube for same video and you can easily see where they spread the promo money.  Good thing for them to do, but obviously makes the view count non-comparable to organics.

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1 minute ago, MR.CLEAN said:

certainly sucks up the promotional money they spent to get them (~$50k per event...)

Compare with youtube for same video and you can easily see where they spread the promo money.  Good thing for them to do, but obviously makes the view count non-comparable to organics.

It's Season 1.

Right now it's all about investing in promotion. That's just the reality of things. The point is - interest is growing, both paid and organic. No question.

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Ready for some real sailing instead of folks playing video games and grinding hydraulics to make a wing move in races that take 20 minutes or so?  

 

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40 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

It's Season 1.

Right now it's all about investing in promotion. That's just the reality of things. The point is - interest is growing, both paid and organic. No question.

View counts for the majority of the stuff are dismal especially now that the season is 80% over- go through the YT and FB catalog.

well below IMSA at lime rock last week, which costs about 10% to run and doesn't lose half its racing to breeze.

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12 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

View counts for the majority of the stuff are dismal especially now that the season is 80% over- go through the YT and FB catalog.

well below IMSA at lime rock last week, which costs about 10% to run and doesn't lose half its racing to breeze.

I think any sailboat race would've been cancelled in the breeze they had on Saturday. 

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23 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

View counts for the majority of the stuff are dismal especially now that the season is 80% over- go through the YT and FB catalog.

Clean,

View counts, LE and RC aside, do you enjoy the racing? Do you appreciate the talent and guts of the sailors?  Do you like the boats?

Seriously not trolling.  I am interested in your opinion.

 

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

View counts for the majority of the stuff are dismal especially now that the season is 80% over- go through the YT and FB catalog.

well below IMSA at lime rock last week, which costs about 10% to run and doesn't lose half its racing to breeze.

Clean, again, I don't know why so many of you guys just want to crap all over SailGP. It's really ridiculous - and you're looking increasingly small and foolish as time and reality march on. But whatever.

When you're comparing the FIRST SEASON OF A SAILING RACE circuit to the numbers of a freakin' sports car event that started in freakin' 1957 - I don't even know where to start trying to explain the problems with the comparison. It's apples to allen wrenches.

Here's just a quick snapshot...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-3.29.07-PM.png

(at least the drivers have heard of this Lime Rock thing - I certainly hadn't...because I don't care...)

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-10.21.30-AM.pn

Almost 3 million views of the Cowes event vids since Friday? And 66k just for the USA capsize???

How do you define "dismal" again?

And as for cost, I'm not sure the point you're trying to make (why do you care what it costs?)  - but I think we all know that car racing is not sailing.

Finally, the YT numbers really don't mean much in regards to SailGP. YT is very much a tertiary channel right now (as you can tell with all the geo-block complaints and the lag in the content). In other words, you're looking in the wrong place. As is obvious, the current media focus/strategy is TV/App/FB (with Web, YT, Twitter, and Instragram in supporting roles). It's a smart strategy that is obviously paying off.

As I said earlier, I also think the App will become more and more the primary focus over time. It really is the future of how racing will be watched. Who knows, maybe the AC will hire Oracle to build them an app too. And maybe in another 50 years IMSA will have an app to and not have to rely on ESPN28 for its coverage. Heh.

Anyway, I'm sure you have the perfect solution to all this. So I'd love to hear it.

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34 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Finally, the YT numbers really don't mean much in regards to SailGP. YT is very much a tertiary channel right now

you're adorable 

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21 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

you're adorable 

Ohh...well...thank you. I take it all back. Heh.

Your solution?

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There is a huge amount of money and effort being spent on what is fast but fairly average racing. The racing will get better as the crews get better, but will it last that long?

I think it would be better if they did racing for two or three weekends in each location. You will get a lot more racing, exposure and build-up for the sponsors.

The points could be double on week two and triple on week three to keep the excitement and interest. 

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We'll have to wait and see about how the future seasons shape up...but remember the long term plan is for far more teams and events in the coming years. So it sounds like you'll be getting more of what you're wanting, pacice.

As for everything being papally prognosticated around here - it needs to be taken with a serious grain of salt....and a lot more context. For example, let's take a look at some actual numbers for each event...

Sydney...

YOUTUBE

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.22.15-PM.png

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.22.25-PM.png

26K total views over 5 months.

Now - if this is all you're looking at, you'd be forgiven for being "adorable". But compare that with the FB videos of the same event...

FACEBOOK

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.16.50-PM.png

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.39.37-PM.png

2.2M total views over 5 months.

 

San Francisco...

YOUTUBE

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.23.44-PM.png

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.23.55-PM.png

99K views over 3 months.

(Now this alone shows a ~4X increase in YT viewership. That's never a bad metric.)

FACEBOOK

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.16.40-PM.png

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.15.52-PM.png

(Note: I'm not able to find the video for Day 1, but these will do for now)...

370K total views for a single day of the event, over 3 months.

(Can't really measure a trend here, but looks less than Sydney - though also less time being out there for viewing.)

 

New York...(AKA - "The Pop")

YOUTUBE

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.21.10-PM.png

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.21.00-PM.png

103K total views over 1 month.

(Interest holding 6-figure steady on YT)

FACEBOOK

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.17.51-PM.png

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.17.39-PM.png

1.8M total views over 1 month.

(Less total views than Sydney - but we're still less than 2 months out.)

 

Cowes...

YOUTUBE

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.20.19-PM.png

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.20.09-PM.png

42K total views over 3 days.

(A big drop-off on YT - likely due to the geo-blocking everyone is complaining about. But...)

FACEBOOK

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.18.22-PM.png

Screen-Shot-2019-08-13-at-6.18.15-PM.png

3M total views over 3 days!

(Are you starting to appreciate the very obvious curve?)

+++++++++++

So, as I said above, TV/FB/App are the primary channels. YT is obviously not the target. Most importantly, these viewership numbers are huge for the first season of any sport - much less SAILING!

You can say whatever you want, Clean - but you can't wish away the numbers. It's that simple.

Even so, I'm still interested in your solution to this "problem".

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We went to Cowes on Sunday and loved it. Great atmosphere, well organised and exciting build-up and racing.

We sail a crusing catamaran but do not and don't want to race. We have sailed to Cowes when the racing is on and

there is a buzz about the place but apart from the Fastnet have never watched or wanted to watch any other

racing.

SailGP was different and can't wait for next years racing :)

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7 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

You can say whatever you want, Clean - but you can't wish away the numbers. It's that simple.

If you have the cash, you can buy numbers.

You can buy 'likes' you can buy hits.  Does Larry have any cash?

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6 hours ago, random said:

If you have the cash, you can buy numbers.

You can buy 'likes' you can buy hits.  Does Larry have any cash?

If smack knew what FB counts as a video view he might get his hand off it... 3 seconds is the answer smack... Given autoplay in timeline you can buy that with zero interest from anyone... for peanuts. At the going rate 1m views cost around $15k.

YouTube typically needs around 30 secs before it counts a view. Given todays drop off rates it's likely YT would 100x if measured at 3 secs.

But like all advertisements, these numbers demonstrate reach, but not demand.

It's also highly likely YT is performing better in terms of actual viewership of the event.

Only SGP know how many people actually watched the event for a meaningful amount of time.

You constantly seem to build your assertions from a place of ignorance... Ironically further compromising whatever legitimacy SGP is trying to build

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Actually, no, rh - you can't buy 3 million views over 3 days with "zero interest from anyone".  Period. Not possible. And I don't think there is a single objective/sane person reading along that would agree with your "assertion". You see the first-hand reports above (and in the other thread) from people who were actually there. No one's paying for that. You can also easily compare FB comments and shares with other similar events. Hell, you can even see that, in less than a month, this very thread is already in the top 5-6 most-viewed threads for MH in the past year - and is still climbing. People are interested - despite your best efforts and confident assertions.

Having gone round with you for a while now, I know you (and others) feel threatened by SailGP and don't want it to succeed. You guys are bitter about all kinds of stuff I could care less about. That's your business and you have a thread for that. So knock yourself out over there.

But numbers are numbers and facts are facts. And they certainly don't support your (or others') assertions, even with the pretzel logic, spinning, and guessing above. Ignorance is one thing. Ignoring the reality of things is quite another.

As always, if you want to reasonably talk about SailGP I'm happy to do it. If you want to play the circus game, I'm not interested. It's completely uninteresting.

In the mean time, just waiting for Marseilles.

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13 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Actually, no, rh - you can't buy 3 million views over 3 days with "zero interest from anyone".  Period. Not possible. And I don't think there is a single sane person reading along that would agree with your "assertion".

I'm sorry to do this but I need to introduce you to the concept known as "advertising", which is by definition paying to put content in front of people that weren't looking for it - it's what you see on TV between the shows you are actually wanting to watch. It's also what appears on your Facebook timeline between the posts you are actually wanting to see. It's what makes FB and Google two of the largest companies on the planet.

You can block your ears all you want, but the reality is that it's trivial to buy 3m views on FB in hours.

If you want to have a reasonable conversion you need to employ reason in your discussion. Your reasoning as to whether FB is better or more valuable that YT is fundamentally flawed because they are measured differently. Your reasoning that FB view counts is a measure of demand is also objectively flawed.

Try harder...

 

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I know a little about the subject. As I say, you're looking at a single datapoint from a very skewed perspective. That's not how metrics/analytics work. But you believe whatever you need to believe. I feel no need to argue with you about it.

Time will tell.

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50 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

I know a little about the subject. As I say, you're looking at a single datapoint from a very skewed perspective.

Actually, no that's precisely what you are doing... 

50 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

 I feel no need to argue with you about it.

It's evident from your behaviour here and in your videos that you are incurious and wholly incapable of learning from the perspectives and input of others. So your statement comes as no surprise to me. Believe it or not, whilst my posts might be in response to yours, I'm not interested in changing your mind or helping to fill in areas of ignorance (that is clearly a fools errand), my responses are for the others who are interested in learning and growing their knowledge and perspectives.

50 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Time will tell.

100%.

I believe I used those words back when SGP was just a soon to be promoted video in your FB timeline ;-) Time will indeed tell, FB vanity metrics certainly won't. Thats my point

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1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

I know a little about the subject. As I say, you're looking at a single datapoint from a very skewed perspective. That's not how metrics/analytics work. But you believe whatever you need to believe. I feel no need to argue with you about it.

Time will tell.

Fixed it for you.

Time won't tell, it's done, hits and likes bought by the same people who pay you.

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Here's a good update on what JPN was facing with their broken boat - and really shows the cool head of Nathan...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-14-at-3.40.20-PM.png

 

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Okay, this is my last post on this subject of the FB numbers being discussed - because the facts are obvious if you are even remotely objective and interested.

If you really want to understand a bit more of the context of these numbers and comparisons, you need to look under the numbers themselves (my point above). Here's what I mean...

1. What channel(s) is/are getting the most updated and current SailGP content on an ongoing basis? Is it Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, the SGP website, Instagram, etc.? That right there will tell you a lot of what platforms/demographics/regions/etc. are and are not that important to the mix.

2. With that content, what are you seeing in terms of views across ALL these videos (not just the events)? And understand that for the above assertions that everything is being paid for to be valid, you need to see huge discrepancies in these numbers across the various videos. Why? Because no one is going to pay to place every single video that comes out. So, you have to look at a cross-section of the various videos (events, brief updates, snippets, etc) - to get a better picture of actual interest. For instance, Clean used IMSA as an example. Compare the numbers across a sampling of videos between IMSA and SailGP...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-14-at-4.35.59-PM.png

Screen-Shot-2019-08-14-at-4.36.28-PM.png

What do you see?

3. Next, to really know whether all these FB views are "purchased" or not, you need to next look at the numbers and context of reactions/comments/shares. If they are all paid and no one is interested, these numbers will be near 0. If they are not near 0, you are getting engagement, not just views. Again, using IMSA as the example, that 380K view Hungry Hippo video has 37 reactions, 1 comment, and 14 shares. The 90K view USA capsize video has 1.8K reactions, 134 comments, and 1K shares.

4. Next, you should drill down into those reactions/comments/shares to determine how many of those accounts are shells. If they are real people with real history, posts, etc - there goes your "pay for view" theory.

So again, though there is a lot we don't know about SailGPs strategies - this information is easily and readily available for anyone who wants to actually know something and have the facts. I encourage any of the naysayers to do their homework and make their case.

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Thanks for all the videos you have found Smack.  It makes it good for people like me that don't do Facebook or anything else.

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For the benefit of others...

1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

1. What channel(s) is/are getting the most updated and current SailGP content on an ongoing basis? Is it Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, the SGP website, Instagram, etc.? That right there will tell you a lot of what platforms/demographics/regions/etc. are and are not that important to the mix.

Not that it matters, but as evidence as to your cluelessness, this is pure nonsense - the frequency of content posting does not indicate 'importance' of a channel, it merely indicates how it is being used. They are often used for expressly different purposes, and for all you know, YT is getting more real viewers than FB. Remember you are arguing demand, not frequency and reach. FWIW views on FB are not unique either, so given frequency capping of around 3 per post, you could even divide the views by 3...

1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

2. With that content, what are you seeing in terms of views across ALL these videos (not just the events)? And understand that for the above assertions that everything is being paid for to be valid, you need to see huge discrepancies in these numbers across the various videos. Why? Because no one is going to pay to place every single video that comes out. So, you have to look at a cross-section of the various videos (events, brief updates, snippets, etc) - to get a better picture of actual interest. For instance, Clean used IMSA as an example. Compare the numbers across a sampling of videos between IMSA and SailGP...

Again, total nonsense. The good news is that you can actually see what content is currently being boosted by SGP. https://www.facebook.com/ads/library/?active_status=all&ad_type=all&country=ALL&impression_search_field=has_impressions_lifetime&q=SailGP&view_all_page_id=645690912454954 so we don't need to rely on your alternative facts.

IMSA? https://www.facebook.com/ads/library/?active_status=all&ad_type=all&country=ALL&impression_search_field=has_impressions_lifetime&q=IMSA&view_all_page_id=489159151162342. None currently boosted..

SGP are currently boosting over 65 of their most recent posts - Essentially *all* content is boosted for some time. This is because organic reach on FB is basically zero and has been for years. It's a pay-to-play channel, and so given the cost and effort of making, uploading and sharing the video, a few grand to boost it is negligible and necessary to achieve ROI. I'm not bagging SGP about this, it's just how it works for everyone trying go get reach. Again you seem convinced FB is exclusively a demand channel - it's not.

1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

3. Next, to really know whether all these FB views are "purchased" or not, you need to next look at the numbers and context of reactions/comments/shares. If they are all paid and no one is interested, these numbers will be near 0. If they are not near 0, you are getting engagement, not just views. Again, using IMSA as the example, that 380K view Hungry Hippo video has 37 reactions, 1 comment, and 14 shares. The 90K view USA capsize video has 1.8K reactions, 134 comments, and 1K shares.

Again, logic would dictate that reach will increase engagement... FFS how is that not obvious, if you show it to 1 person, you can only get 1 like, if you show it to 1 million you'll get plenty more than 1 like.

1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

4. Next, you should drill down into those reactions/comments/shares to determine how many of those accounts are shells. If they are real people with real history, posts, etc - there goes your "pay for view" theory.

So your premise is built on conflating promoted content with fake accounts? No wonder you are so off base with your thinking. No one is suggesting the views aren't from legitimate users mate... just that the view count is based on 3 sec plays in timelines, and not evidence of demand - why is that so hard to understand?

1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

So again, though there is a lot we don't know about SailGPs strategies - this information is easily and readily available for anyone who wants to actually know something and have the facts. I encourage any of the naysayers to do their homework and make their case.

As evidenced you really don't know anything about this stuff at all do you... no surprises there..

Oh and BTW - how many ads are ETNZ running for their content?

https://www.facebook.com/ads/library/?active_status=all&ad_type=all&country=ALL&impression_search_field=has_impressions_lifetime&q=Emirates Team New Zealand&view_all_page_id=123789437646117

That's right big fat fucken ZERO mate... 

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Fuck me, you guys have way too much time on your hands. 

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10 minutes ago, mad said:

Fuck me, you guys have way too much time on your hands. 

Yeah good point... I really should just pop the idiot on iggy... cheers!

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SMAAAAAAAACKKKKK FOCUS, every time you spend time on those couple of haters your not putting up great info and they just keep spewing anyway. Now that I have your attention I can confirm that videos are available again in Aus and can you pretty, pretty please keep putting up your info

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3 hours ago, DtM said:

Thanks for all the videos you have found Smack.  It makes it good for people like me that don't do Facebook or anything else.

No worries Dt. I'm obviously pretty interested in the stuff. So I'm happy to share.

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1 hour ago, madboutcats said:

SMAAAAAAAACKKKKK FOCUS, every time you spend time on those couple of haters your not putting up great info and they just keep spewing anyway. Now that I have your attention I can confirm that videos are available again in Aus and can you pretty, pretty please keep putting up your info

I am actually very interested in this geo-block complaint/issue. Which countries are blocked - and at which times? From a couple of posters above, it sounds like the UK/Germany (Europe I assume) was blocked during and around the Cowes event which makes perfect sense. But what was the timing for AUS? And are the vids still blocked for NZ? I personally haven't seen any blocking for the US market - though I only started following during the NY event and watched the replays of the previous 2 events. Just trying to get a sense of the strategy there.

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Germany was not geoblocked. I was able to see it live and it was great albeit a little short. They shoud swap the grinders between the races and do more laps/races.

 

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The nearer-term vision is for 10 teams and 10 races - then expanding on that in the future. As for more days, more races, more time - etc. - you have to remember the business model (which is brilliant):

Quote

The advantage with SailGP is that it’s designed as a broadcast-orientated product – with short races, national rivalries, cutting-edge technology, record-breaking speeds and lots of drama – and it’s accessible to the significant crowds that have attended our events. We have been able to create great short-form content that is easy to consume in a variety of modern ways. - RC

So, it's in no way your traditional idea of sailboat racing. It's completely new and, more importantly, relevant - made for the broader public and the ways the