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Great video of the #CowesCarnage from the AUS boat. Listen to the crowd (caption is right on) as USA augers in - and remember - this is a sailing event! Welcome to the future baby!

Screen-Shot-2019-08-16-at-10.54.10-PM.pn

Thank you very much. I'll be here all week. And don't forget to tip your Kiwis. Heh.

 

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2 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Great video of the #CowesCarnage from the AUS boat.

I only clicked on it to see if it played ... it doesn't!

Fucking blocked again.

No wonder they have to pay fuckwits like you to post on forums.

giphy.gif

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On 14 August 2019 at 1:20 AM, smackdaddy said:

-On your iPad, go to the app store...

001_download-apps-to-ipad-1999821-de2ae6

-Once the App Store opens, Hit the search icon in the lower bar on the right side.

-Type in SailGP

-You'll see the app there. Just download and you're golden.

 

Then head to the Apple Store to purchase a new iPad as it needs the latest iOS

 

 

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7 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Great video of the #CowesCarnage from the AUS boat. Listen to the crowd (caption is right on) as USA augers in - and remember - this is a sailing event! Welcome to the future baby!

Screen-Shot-2019-08-16-at-10.54.10-PM.pn

Thank you very much. I'll be here all week. And don't forget to tip your Kiwis. Heh.

 

Thanks Smack that played for me on my three year old IPad and was epic angle and commentary, keep it up

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30 minutes ago, madboutcats said:

Thanks Smack that played for me on my three year old IPad and was epic angle and commentary, keep it up

Circle sock jerk,

Still doesn't play here.  But I like that, shows how fucked this is.

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On 8/15/2019 at 5:57 PM, MultiThom said:

Seriously, smack (heroin) will make you crazy and kill you eventually.  Go sailing, go to rehab....whatever it takes to KILL THIS THREAD

 

Attitude.jpg

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8 hours ago, random said:

Circle sock jerk,

Still doesn't play here.  But I like that, shows how fucked this is.

Well you don't want to watch it anyway, you just want to have a whinge, so you actually got what you wanted out of the video 

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44 minutes ago, madboutcats said:

Well you don't want to watch it anyway, you just want to have a whinge, so you actually got what you wanted out of the video 

Go back to jerking-off Smack.  It suits you, at least you are good at that.

 

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18 minutes ago, random said:

Go back to jerking-off Smack.  It suits you, at least you are good at that.

 

Says the one with no interest in the subject, but continues to walk in the door jerking off.  Strange behaviour. 

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Damn this SailGP app - it doesn't even work on my Kindle!

170px-Amazon_Kindle_3.JPG

Idiots!

Heh.

 

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Works fine for me here in Oz

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I'm starting to wonder if it's just New Zealand that's GEO-blocked. Now THAT would be funny.

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Would be fair really, it was NZ that blindsided the Tornado's out of the Olympics and we all knew what would happen if NZ won the AC, pretty funny for an island that was colonised by people floating on two logs lashed together with a cabin and sail on it. Whatever you do don't tell them what we call that now or the will go bunta

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Not as funny as SGP having to buy their fake views from New Zealand (amongst other places too)...

See the part where it says 'sponsored'?

large.1129756176_ScreenShot2019-08-19at1

large.108070439_ScreenShot2019-08-19at1_

Not that really is funny!

 

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Anyone know what the SailGP cats were up to on Sunday? 2 unbranded save for "SailGP" mark on the wingtip, one white and one bright blue so looked like Japanese boat and French platforms sailing around western solent with a bunch of chase boats and a helo.

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31 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

Anyone know what the SailGP cats were up to on Sunday? 2 unbranded save for "SailGP" mark on the wingtip, one white and one bright blue so looked like Japanese boat and French platforms sailing around western solent with a bunch of chase boats and a helo.

They did mention that the smaller wings might be ready for testing by Cowes Week, perhaps they’re trying out the new toys. 

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I'll give you this rh, you truly are the King of Non Sequiturs.

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I'm not sure if the actual data is public anywhere - but this article provides a bit of insight:

https://www.sailingworld.com/flight-control-on-sailgps-f50/

I do actually think that making this data "open source" would be a good move for SailGP. That's what I was hoping to hear in that Oracle Hackathon video I liked above - but don't think it was there. If geeks could pour through all that data and make recommendations, etc. on the various areas within it (like the wind prediction aspects of the hackathon) - you might get some very interesting design input from completely new areas.

Sure, most open-source projects don't really have that bleeding-edge feel, but open data is already part of the SailGP DNA - so it's interesting to think about where all you could take that.

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The countdown is on:

iStock-686301020.jpg?fm=webp&w=768

https://sailgp.com/news/one-month-to-marseille/

Quote

"We are very excited to be racing at home, it brings us extra energy and motivation to do well. We accomplished some great performances in Cowes and will sail in Marseille with more confidence. A new speed record was established for the F50, of more than 52 knots, so depending on weather conditions during the event, it promises a high tension experience for this Grand Final, both for the teams and the fans." -Billy Besson, helmsman of the France SailGP Team, four-time Nacra 17 world champion.

 

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And this is also very cool...building a real pathway for the next generation. Goodonya SailGP/UKSA!

https://sailgp.com/news/inspire-partners-with-uksa/

Quote

Despite being surrounded by water, in one of the premier sailing capitals of the world, new figures have revealed that a third of children on the Isle of Wight are living in poverty and have never taken part in any on-water activities.

In Cowes, SailGP partnered with the United Kingdom Sailing Academy (UKSA), an organization that promotes all water based initiatives on the Island, and the Royal Yachting Association, to help deliver and activate the newly launched SailGP Inspire program and introduce local children to the sport. The three pillars of the Inspire program - Inspire Learning, Inspire Careers, and Inspire Racing – aim to give young girls, boys, women and men (ages 9-23) from all backgrounds life-changing opportunities on and off the water.

“The UKSA is committed to supporting the most deserving young people and children here on the island to be able to access the amazing experiences and opportunities that being on the water provides,” said Ben Willows CEO of UKSA. “Together we are aiming to continue to offer every year 6 child on the Island a sailing session at UKSA through our test the water program. It is great to see SailGP supporting the local community here in Cowes and on the island and we look forward to working with SailGP over the next few years as this event and partnership continues to develop and grow.”

...

Quote

The Inspire program was the brainchild of SailGP CEO Sir Russell Coutts, who wanted to devise a program that uses sailing as a force for good. SailGP Inspire broadens access to the sport, offers a career pathway and aims to leave a meaningful legacy in SailGP host cities.

“Sailing is an amazing sport that teaches lifelong lessons that can be applied for whatever a young person chooses to do in life. Teamwork, sportsmanship as well as things like being well prepared and responsible,” said Coutts.

 

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White and Blue were out trialling yesterday in the distance, too far away for pictures unfortunately. 

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13 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Looks like the heavy air wings are now being tested...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-20-at-4.32.02-PM.png

 

Heavy air wing would be considerably shorter than that. That is a standard wing.

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38 minutes ago, Potter said:

Heavy air wing would be considerably shorter than that. That is a standard wing.

Are you sure? From what I've read there is a 4m difference in the wing sizes - which isn't huge.

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14 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Looks like the heavy air wings are now being tested...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-20-at-4.32.02-PM.png

 

It’s just the Japanese boats without its branding ......they are shooting a movie using SailGP boats 

not sure what movie but a pretty high profile director 

pretty cool for the class to be involved in 

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Now that's cool, tbm.

As for the wing, I could definitely be wrong, but it does seem smaller. Here is a rough comparison in scale/wing height...(you can imagine the overlay)

Screen-Shot-2019-08-20-at-4.31.06-PM.png

Anyway - doesn't matter. We know they're coming.

 

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A great vid of Slingsby answering many of the questions that have been discussed around here...

 

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1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

Are you sure? From what I've read there is a 4m difference in the wing sizes - which isn't huge.

Yes, I am sure.

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1 hour ago, Potter said:

Yes, I am sure.

but internet graphic comparison says no!

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1 hour ago, Potter said:

Yes, I am sure.

Fair enough. Thanks.

Do you know if the difference between the wings is the 4m mentioned? I've seen talk where the new modular approach will allow 4m differences on either side of the current height.

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This is a great onboard vid of USA before, during, and after their capsize. Shows how bad the sea state was in the beginning.

I love the part after the tumble where Rome says "Uh oh - pieces of metal." - then...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-21-at-6.44.04-PM.png

Heh.

 

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Yeah - but I really think SailGP is a better model because you can see a much clearer pathway to it as opposed to the AC which is much more an elite design competition. Getting these kids on these boats with the GP skippers is just brilliant for everyone involved. Good on 'em.

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It's enough to enjoy SailGP, see what it does, what works, what doesn't. We don't have to choose between SailGP, AC, BTC, a-cat worlds, or moth worlds. (Sailors competing in them might have to).

I don't see the point in arguing SailGP vs AC, the personalities of the posters here in SA, or whatever. 

Hey, with any luck SailGP builds a broader audience, priming the pump for the next AC, more people come sailing, and everyone wins. 

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1 hour ago, martin.langhoff said:

It's enough to enjoy SailGP, see what it does, what works, what doesn't. We don't have to choose between SailGP, AC, BTC, a-cat worlds, or moth worlds. (Sailors competing in them might have to).

This is something I'm personally very interested in. Since SailGP is annual, it becomes the top-teir of global professional sailboat racing. But what exactly is the pathway to getting there? Since we're talking foiling cats it's a pretty blurry line. What I mean is you have Besson coming out of the Nacras, Fletcher and Outteridge coming out of the 49ers, Kirby the Moths, Robertson the M32s, Slingsby the Lasers - and saying he's now going to the Moths. (Plus all the past AC experience of these guys.)

So, what is the best route toward sailing an F50? Judging by Slingsby's plans, it sure seems the Moths are becoming the preferred platform.

It will be interesting to see what the AC foiling monos do and how that changes this equation even further - if it does at all. The bottom line - foiling is the new performance sailing. So those UFOs of yours are starting to look pretty cool, martin!

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2 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

It's enough to enjoy SailGP, see what it does, what works, what doesn't. We don't have to choose between SailGP, AC, BTC, a-cat worlds, or moth worlds. (Sailors competing in them might have to).

I don't see the point in arguing SailGP vs AC, the personalities of the posters here in SA, or whatever. 

Hey, with any luck SailGP builds a broader audience, priming the pump for the next AC, more people come sailing, and everyone wins. 

I think SailGP and this thread has come along at a terrific time for people like me, the last monohull AC’s were pretty ordinary with boats approaching each other at what looked like 5 knots and the commentators going crazy about wether they would collide and then all the court drivel because the skippers on starboard got scared into bearing off course whilst the boats are still half a mile apart. Now that AC is back to mono’s it’s a good time for me to ignore it, put my resources into getting to see SailGP live and focus on the foiling cat races. The bonus of this thread is I don’t have to sort through all the other videos, the entertaining ones are being put on here. Of course that may change for me if the AC monos start doing 70 knots but if they aren’t doing 50 knots then they will just be lame ducks in my opinion. 

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3 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

But what exactly is the pathway to getting there?

BTC cup, obviously... 

Jokes aside, a mix of moth sailing and 49er (teamwork, communication, apparent wind sailing).

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This is a great technical breakdown of exactly what happened to put GBR at the bottom of the Solent for a few seconds - and almost send Draper to Norway or France or Spain - whichever way they were headed...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-22-at-12.53.26-PM.pn

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As the great debate continues as to the future "viability" of SailGP, let's get real for a moment...has anyone EVER seen crowds like this at ANY sailing event in the past?

SF

sailgp-race-series-san-francisco-usa-shu

NY (link to story)

Crowd-1150x863.jpg

Cowes

Screen-Shot-2019-08-11-at-3.28.33-PM.png

You'd have to try very hard NOT be impressed by this.

I remember the ACWS (the pre-cursor to SailGP which drew me to all this) during AC34 had incredible numbers (nearly 250K in Portsmouth)..

WEB_Crowds-on-25-July-2015-at-the-Portsm

And I also remember being impressed at the on-shore crowds in SF at AC...

2013-09-16_1325_AK_AC34SepD14_3196.jpg

So, as has been said by many, the near-shore stadium racing format is obviously appealing to a lot of people...whether they know sailing or not.

It will be interesting to watch these crowd sizes over the next series or two...but I'd say, judging by the numbers, SailGP has definitely hit on something pretty powerful.

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This article came out a few days ago - and I can't remember if I posted it or not. I'm personally more interested in the racing than the intricate details of the boats. But in any case, the article has some interesting stats/info on the design aspects of the F50 which is in alignment with what Slingsby is saying in the above video...

https://www.yachtingworld.com/extraordinary-boats/sailgp-f50-board-sailing-equivalent-formula-1-racecar-122851

Quote

“I think 99% of people believe that we received these boats from Bermuda, repainted them and sent them on their way again. I don’t think we’re ever going to be able to explain quite what we’ve done, but the amount of work that has happened here in New Zealand has been simply phenomenal,” explains Brad Marsh, technical team operations manager for SailGP. “The only thing that resembles the previous boats is the length and width; they have been modified in every respect.”

And this is one of the places where Marsh has talked about the new wings and what I was talking about above regarding the 4m modules...

Quote

The one thing that didn’t change significantly was the wingsails, at least not yet. “The wings are still about 85% as they were in Bermuda. By the time we had rebuilt all the boats, built 28 daggerboards and 28 rudders, stripped, reconfigured, rebuilt and repainted the boats, we didn’t have time to do the wings as well.

“We have now started a project to build eight new wings for the 2020 season. They are going to be a modular wing, which will allow us to assess the conditions and set up for each regatta. They could be set to be 4m taller than the current wing, the same size, or 4m shorter than the current wing,” explained Marsh.

“The idea is to be able to have the boats foil in very light winds, and still sail in very heavy winds. This opens up different venues to us.” The boats will constantly develop to keep them at the bleeding edge of what’s possible, while remaining one-design.

With the performance levels we're seeing now - it's going to be very interesting to see where these boats go as everything continues to improve.

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I was asked a few questions in the other thread that I think are reasonable and have some merit - so I'll answer them here...

7 hours ago, Curious said:

How does SailGP “literally” redefine TV?

How does it “literally” redefine yacht racing?

SailGP literally redefines TV with its app. The ability to watch the races via a combination of 8 different simultaneous video feeds that you can select on the fly - two of which you can have up at the same time, as well as the live-streaming of the data coming off the boats - again, two dashboards of which you can have up at the same time...is one of, if not THE, most advanced racing viewing experience ever. It's more of what TV will become in the future - interactive, immersive, and self-driven. If I'm wrong and there is something better than this - for sailing - I'd love anyone to show it to me. (The F1 app is very similar but not free.)

It redefines yacht racing on several fronts:

1. No sailboat has ever before reached speeds of 50+ knots. This is now to the point where the stakes are extremely high from a safety perspective for the athletes. There's been a long-running joke about helmets in sailing. That joke is no longer a joke. Try hitting the water at 60mph/93kph - try getting hit by a foil travelling that fast.

2. The short, near-shore tracks - combined with the above speed and 6+ equally matched boats, makes this racing unlike anything anyone has ever seen in sailboat racing. It's crowded, crazy, high-stakes racing. Add in the fact that they are getting out and racing in conditions for which most inshore yacht races would be called off - and it gets even more exciting.

3. Look at the crowds.

Where have you ever seen these things before in yacht racing? As for the crowds, I talked about that above. We'd never seen anything like 250K people attending the ACWS (the pre-cursor to SailGP). Think about that for a moment. Then think about this: If you have any business acument whatsoever and see that kind of interest in something - what do you do with it?

So, on these points - again, if I'm wrong, show me.

7 hours ago, Curious said:

How is it possible to lift the skill level?  Skill is developed by things like practice time and basic intelligence and talent.  Hopping onto a 50 does not mean that Tom and Outteridge suddenly have an expanded brain capacity.  They did not get an extra 300 million neurones shoved into their skulls.  They would have spent LESS time practicing than they did in Lasers or 49ers.

Tom and Outteridge sailed as hard as they could to get their Olympic gold. They didn’t sit around and sail half-heartedly.  They would have had the same effort, more motivation, the same brains and more time on the water in their Olympic efforts so why would they be trying harder and showing more skill in the 50s?

I think you're conflating skill and effort a bit. Here's what I mean...

As far as I know, there has never before been a "Flight Controller" in yacht racing. It is an entirely new skill and crew position on a racing yacht. And even from the helmsman perspective, what do you think is the difference in skill level between helming a 49er doing 20 knots and a foiling F50 doing 50 knots? Or, where in history have crew had to deal with the kinds of G-Forces being generated now on these F50s during maneuvers - as they sprint to the other side of the boat?

There is no doubt that Slingsby and Outteridge put in incredible effort and had incredible skills in the Lasers and 49ers - it's why they won. But you need to listen to them both when they talk about the F50 and how it compares to anything they've ever sailed before. I think you'll see that they're saying what I'm saying.

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To reinforce my point above - and to get a sense of how sophisticated the SailGP app is - here is a quick comparison to the F1 app. You'll see it's not anywhere near what SailGP offers in terms of the simultaneous combination of video/data/etc...

 

 

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Though Curious directed his comments and questions at me over there, I won't continue this conversation between the two threads this way. If he wants to discuss SailGP here in the SailGP thread I'm happy to do so as he does make some salient points (unlike most others there). Otherwise, this will be my last post on the matter.

But I do want to highlight something that is very relevant to the above posts because I think it illustrates the confusion and conflation most of the SailGP detractors struggle with...

8 hours ago, Curious said:

Well, I won't go into the "redefining TV" because it seems you're talking about an app and not broadcast TV. But there seems to be no real grounds for the claim that SailGP is "redefining sailing".

Just like with most of your remaining arguments against SailGP "redefining sailing" in the post, you're exclusively focusing here on what broadcast tv "has always been". Therefore you're unable to see a redefinition because you're simply staring at the same screen - and very broadly interpreting everything from that limited perspective.

Here's what you need to understand in these comparisons: THE APP IS TV - it's just a completely redefined way of viewing it. Think about it this way, the app is to "broadcast tv" what tv is to radio. If you look at viewership numbers and ad revenue across "broadcast television" you'll see steep declines (for years) precisely because technology has completely redefined how TV is consumed. So, "broadcast TV" is simply no longer even a standard to compare to. It's WAY behind the curve. And if that's ones standard - so is he.

I have 2 teenage boys neither of which EVER watch "broadcast tv" - and NEVER at the broadcast scheduled times. In fact, they very rarely watch tv on a large traditional television screen at all. They, and most of their friends, only consume what you're trying to define as "TV" on their computers and phones (both of which can easily display those videos, etc. on a large "tv screen" if so desired). And then it's not traditional tv viewing, but an enhanced/interactive video experience served up by YouTube, Netflix, Amazon, and scads of social apps/sites - almost never "broadcast television" apps. Until you truly understand this shift and the business fundamentals driving it, and until you understand that broadcast tv IS the radio of yesteryear, you'll never appreciate what's really happening here right under your nose. You're simply using the wrong standard. That's been my point. You can't conflate the old stuff with this new stuff. They are completely different animals...though still using much of the same vocabulary (which I think is causing the confusion).

Now on the "redefining sailing" point - I'll grant that the lines are somewhat more blurred. But not by much when looking at things through the above technological and practical lens. Again, I'm happy to specifically address the points you raise in this regard - but I think it makes far more sense for you to simply take the word of the guys you look up to...

 

I couldn't say it any better myself...which is surprising.

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However you want to describe it I agree with @smackdaddy that the SailGP is pretty friggin' cool - not all that long ago it was pretty cool that Hydroptere was breaking 50 knots in a straight line, and now we have a whole fleet of boats doing it on an inshore race course in front of huge crowds and with an engaging online user experience!

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Nope - sailboat racing and the way it's enjoyed hasn't been redefined at all. Heh. (PS - Did you know these dinghies were "faster than the Queen Mary"? I love it!)...

This is actually one of my favorite YouTube vids, so I had to put it up. Great stuff.

(PSS - You'll notice the 33 shore-side spectators complementing the 11 or so on a boat. That's almost 250K. Literally.)

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It really is easy to see the "quantum leap" I'm talking about even when looking at the Plymouth ACWS I mentioned above...

Compare that to what you're seeing now. Oh - and remember "Survival Sunday" (can't embed - but great video)?

https://youtu.be/4-c_XHzrz8o

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Then from there you have the next ACWS which is building toward what you see now with SailGP - but still tame and kind of low-energy in comparison...

Notice the crowds really starting to build at these events?

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If you watch that Plymouth ACWS vid - pay attention to the things Russell Coutts and Jimmy Spithill are saying. There's another video somewhere of RC talking about the Sunday conditions in Plymouth where he's saying that most races would be called off - but he was happy everyone was willing to give it a go. You can literally see the seeds of SailGP being planted based on what they are experiencing. It's pretty cool.

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4 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

If you watch that Plymouth ACWS vid - pay attention to the things Russell Coutts and Jimmy Spithill are saying. There's another video somewhere of RC talking about the Sunday conditions in Plymouth where he's saying that most races would be called off - but he was happy everyone was willing to give it a go. You can literally see the seeds of SailGP being planted based on what they are experiencing. It's pretty cool.

You have an abysmal handling of the English language. Could you please at least try to understand what "litetal (ly)" means? It's that unreflected, hollow PR hyperbole that is so annoying, now paired with wrong semantics. It's no good service you do for the product 

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23 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

You have an abysmal handling of the English language. Could you please at least try to understand what "litetal (ly)" means? It's that unreflected, hollow PR hyperbole that is so annoying, now paired with wrong semantics. It's no good service you do for the product 

Wow - you got me. I'm not familiar with the word "litetal (ly)". I'm sure it's just my abysmal handling of English and all. Can you enlighten?

Wait - I get it, you're being figutative? Nice dude!

spicoli.png

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30 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Wow - you got me. I'm not familiar with the word "litetal (ly)". I'm sure it's just my abysmal handling of English and all. Can you enlighten?

Wait - I get it, you're being figutative? Nice dude!

spicoli.png

Oh girl, you found a typo. My bad handling of the phone keyboard. Congratulations. 

You need to work on your semantics nevertheless. 

Edit: By now you should have found out that your glorification of the product is annoying people so much that they turn away. Bye.

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2 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Oh girl, you found a typo. My bad handling of the phone keyboard. Congratulations. 

You need to work on your semantics nevertheless. 

Edit: By now you should have found out that your glorification of the product is annoying people so much that they turn away. Bye.

Good we don’t need you to clutter this thread, you won’t be missed

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21 minutes ago, madboutcats said:
2 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Oh girl, you found a typo. My bad handling of the phone keyboard. Congratulations. 

You need to work on your semantics nevertheless. 

Edit: By now you should have found out that your glorification of the product is annoying people so much that they turn away. Bye.

Good we don’t need you to clutter this thread, you won’t be missed

Nice work, that's what we need more of, chasing valuable posters away.

Looking at your posting record you not only will not be missed, but you never contributed any value to start with.

Show us how it's done and fuck off. 

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18 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Though Curious directed his comments and questions at me over there, I won't continue this conversation between the two threads this way. If he wants to discuss SailGP here in the SailGP thread I'm happy to do so as he does make some salient points (unlike most others there). Otherwise, this will be my last post on the matter.

But I do want to highlight something that is very relevant to the above posts because I think it illustrates the confusion and conflation most of the SailGP detractors struggle with...

Just like with most of your remaining arguments against SailGP "redefining sailing" in the post, you're exclusively focusing here on what broadcast tv "has always been". Therefore you're unable to see a redefinition because you're simply staring at the same screen - and very broadly interpreting everything from that limited perspective.

Here's what you need to understand in these comparisons: THE APP IS TV - it's just a completely redefined way of viewing it. Think about it this way, the app is to "broadcast tv" what tv is to radio. If you look at viewership numbers and ad revenue across "broadcast television" you'll see steep declines (for years) precisely because technology has completely redefined how TV is consumed. So, "broadcast TV" is simply no longer even a standard to compare to. It's WAY behind the curve. And if that's ones standard - so is he.

I have 2 teenage boys neither of which EVER watch "broadcast tv" - and NEVER at the broadcast scheduled times. In fact, they very rarely watch tv on a large traditional television screen at all. They, and most of their friends, only consume what you're trying to define as "TV" on their computers and phones (both of which can easily display those videos, etc. on a large "tv screen" if so desired). And then it's not traditional tv viewing, but an enhanced/interactive video experience served up by YouTube, Netflix, Amazon, and scads of social apps/sites - almost never "broadcast television" apps. Until you truly understand this shift and the business fundamentals driving it, and until you understand that broadcast tv IS the radio of yesteryear, you'll never appreciate what's really happening here right under your nose. You're simply using the wrong standard. That's been my point. You can't conflate the old stuff with this new stuff. They are completely different animals...though still using much of the same vocabulary (which I think is causing the confusion).

Now on the "redefining sailing" point - I'll grant that the lines are somewhat more blurred. But not by much when looking at things through the above technological and practical lens. Again, I'm happy to specifically address the points you raise in this regard - but I think it makes far more sense for you to simply take the word of the guys you look up to...

 

I couldn't say it any better myself...which is surprising.

Apart from the arrogance contained in your last line - so what?

What did Tom say that was on point?  Sure, he said he's trying to learn and he's positive - that's quite typical of the way Tom talks in my experience. For example, when he was doing Etchells with John Bertrand and Dog Palfrey he said it was "the best sailing I have ever done", that it was "all new", "a real eye opener",and "amazing". Given that he talks about inland light-wind Etchells sailing using such terms, the fact that he speaks positively about the 50s is only to be expected - it's Tom's way.

What did Outteridge say that was relevant? Sure, the boats are faster than what he had sailed earlier - back in the 1980s the same would have been said by the crew of Apricot or Jet Services. Sure, the series is "pushing the boundaries" of racing boats - as I said earlier, the same thing has been said for decade after decade. Pen Duick III pushed the boundaries, Charles Hiedsick (sp) pushed the boundaries, Entrad pushed the boundaries, Robby Naish's Pan Am pushed the boundaries, Manu Kai and the Jet Services pushed the boundaries, even Ranger pushed a few. This is the latest in a long process, not something that is redefining sailing.  

Yes, Nathan thinks he's lucky to be involved in the sport at this time - but the same thoughts could have been echoed by many people in many earlier decades. Personally I'm glad I'm older and I got to be involved in the sport when it was much bigger. After years of foiling AC boats, sailboat sales are down, fleets are down, and we still have not seen the rebirth that some promised us that this "new sailing Mk XXVVII" would create.

By the way, we don't actually have broadcast TV in the house, so any claim that I am staring at the same screen as broadcast TV is utterly wrong and may merely show how much you operate from the preconception that other people are staid. Our boys aren't in the house - they are working in IT. You've given no evidence at all for your belief that you have some special knowledge of IT, the media and business, much less about sailing.

By the way, what happened to your claim that we'd never seen 250k people at a sailing race? 

 

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12 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Nope - sailboat racing and the way it's enjoyed hasn't been redefined at all. Heh. (PS - Did you know these dinghies were "faster than the Queen Mary"? I love it!)...

This is actually one of my favorite YouTube vids, so I had to put it up. Great stuff.

(PSS - You'll notice the 33 shore-side spectators complementing the 11 or so on a boat. That's almost 250K. Literally.)

You may have missed it, but a lot happened to the sport between 1955 and the creation of the ACWS.

I see that you reckon that after a lifetime sailing slow monos, fixing up an early '70s beachcat  "really opened my eyes and got me interested in the world of multis." Sorry, but if you had managed to sail your whole life with your eyes closed about multis, then it's understandable how you seem to have missed so much of what has been going on since 1955. The fact that you managed to go around for year after year ignoring what's been happening does not make you an expert on the sport, its development, and the place of the GP series, but it does make the reason for your fixation pretty obvious. You have apparently finally bothered to open your eyes, marvelled at what you have seen, but haven't realised that the rest of us have had our eyes open for decades.

May I ask - did you ever actually read about the Formula 40s, or sail on or against one? Did you sail an 18 Foot Skiff, Moth, Int Canoe, 505 or Tornado?  Did you do any of the televised pro racing that was happening as early as the '80s, or read about the various events?  Have you sat in the press room for a major pro event?  Do you know any of the guys racing in the recent ACs?  If you haven't done that sort of stuff, on what basis do you claim to be such an expert?

 

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On 8/17/2019 at 6:24 AM, Doug Halsey said:

 

Attitude.jpg

Absolutely.  If you visit someone's home and their five year old misbehaves, it isn't your responsibility to give him a time out...Just ignore and stop visiting.  No sense in trying to teach manners to a five year old that isn't your kid.

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8 hours ago, madboutcats said:

Good we don’t need you to clutter this thread, you won’t be missed

Actually I wanted to f#ck off to the other thread again, but now that you ask me to stay in such a polite way, I'm obliged to carry on posting here. Thanks.

To make you even more happy, I will now contribute more than a semantics lesson. It's 100% about SGP, the topic this thread is about:

The thing people don't understand WRT the SGP is that it is a purely commercial enterprise. It could be golf, it could be motorsports, it could be anything else, by chance it is sailing this time. We are used to sailing being a corinthian sport (or at least appear corinthian, even the AC still has that aura), we are used to not paying entry fees, to our accreditation requests being accepted, and as spectators to being treated with respect and as equals.
SGP on the other hand is a product. It's sold to us as a product. Without any resemblance to the sailing etiquette we are used to. SGP sees us, the spectators, as consumers of their product, as customers at best. SGP could be washing machines, a new cereal or a new sports league. It doesn't matter, the advertising/PR is the same, the customers/consumers are treated in the same way.

With SGP Russel has made the last step. Sailing went from being a means of transport to being a sport to being a product.
(The same happened with the Rallye WC as well over time, by the way.)
 

8 hours ago, random said:

Nice work, that's what we need more of, chasing valuable posters away.

Looking at your posting record you not only will not be missed, but you never contributed any value to start with.

Show us how it's done and fuck off. 

Thanks indeed. Backing coming from an unexpected direction :wub:

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I think @Rennmaus makes points that are valid, no matter how thrilling, exciting, or erogenous one finds watching the events and video clips to be.

I also think it is "interesting" that both @Rennmaus and I have been explicitly asked NOT to be here in this thread. @dg_sailingfan asked me not to come here.

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SailGP is a product as much as modern AC or Volvo RTW. I don't think there's any difference. The comparisons with F1 and other highly produced/productized sports is appropriate. I am under no illusions here that it's amateur buddies getting together for a 'round the cans' Friday race.

In fact, I'm glad that there's a growing professional track for young talent. They can choose to become paid professional sailors. 

The production values are getting better -- we can quibble about the details, but there's more money, more folks working hard on producing something compelling. I just hope that AC steals as many good ideas from SGP as possible, and that they both feed a growing audience and sport.

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@Rennmaus As usual, many, including myself appreciate your efforts here... but sadly it will be entirely in vain... smackjaw's contributions of ignorance, narcism, hyperbole and outright factual bullshit are bordering on performance art levels of existence... I think he just wants an audience or some type of human interaction...  and when a lifelong unstable troll is your one and only counterpart in the form of DG you know things must be bad...

It's a cliche but it plays out perfectly with this individual

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

And let me tell you, the level is subterranean with this one...

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^ I love the SGP, you understood nothing.

By the way, this here is not the GDR. I am used to live in a free world, and I won't let anyone tell me where or what to post.

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^ Again, this is not the GDR here, and if you don't believe me that I am a SGP fan, it's you problem, not mine. Oh, and thanks for always inviting me over and over again to this thread with your invitations to troll. I really appreciate it. SD probably too.

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51 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

And I stand by it. Stay away from it if you haven't anything useful to say about SailGP. I just don't want this Thread as badly polluted as the "Larry's Circus Thread" and YOU & @Rennmaus are just doing that. We don't need your Negativity about SailGP here at all.

I was not aware that YOU and especially your best friend SD were officially synonymous with SailGP.  Or that you were the Official SA Spokespeople. Wow. Congratulations.

If you think critiquing something is pollution, well, that says something.

And I am a fan of SailGP boats and teams. I have watched every race multiple times, various views on the app, stayed up at 2 am my time to watch Sydney races live on Facebook  because the app was not yet on Android (yes I complained a lot about that!).

Actually, ROTFLMAO, I might have been the one who told Smackdaddy about app features, if you care to look back in the longstanding thread on the subject.

And btw I am not from NZ, was an Oracle fan in 2010-2017.  The "problem" with me that some seem to have is that I know the difference between enthusiastic support and narcissistic control.  Maybe you will see what I mean eventually.

DG, I do thank you for putting those lost races online months ago. 

 

 

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See? Now you're upset. Let's try to get things back on track and have a reasonable discussion...

3 hours ago, Curious said:

Apart from the arrogance contained in your last line - so what?

Tongue-in-cheek is kind of my schtick. Most people can see it for what it is. In general, I'm of the opinion that people should generally take themselves less seriously and have a little fun here and there. Hence the joking around.

What did Tom say that was on point?  Sure, he said he's trying to learn and he's positive - that's quite typical of the way Tom talks in my experience. For example, when he was doing Etchells with John Bertrand and Dog Palfrey he said it was "the best sailing I have ever done", that it was "all new", "a real eye opener",and "amazing". Given that he talks about inland light-wind Etchells sailing using such terms, the fact that he speaks positively about the 50s is only to be expected - it's Tom's way.

What did Outteridge say that was relevant? Sure, the boats are faster than what he had sailed earlier - back in the 1980s the same would have been said by the crew of Apricot or Jet Services. Sure, the series is "pushing the boundaries" of racing boats - as I said earlier, the same thing has been said for decade after decade. Pen Duick III pushed the boundaries, Charles Hiedsick (sp) pushed the boundaries, Entrad pushed the boundaries, Robby Naish's Pan Am pushed the boundaries, Manu Kai and the Jet Services pushed the boundaries, even Ranger pushed a few. This is the latest in a long process, not something that is redefining sailing. 

Yes, Nathan thinks he's lucky to be involved in the sport at this time - but the same thoughts could have been echoed by many people in many earlier decades. Personally I'm glad I'm older and I got to be involved in the sport when it was much bigger. After years of foiling AC boats, sailboat sales are down, fleets are down, and we still have not seen the rebirth that some promised us that this "new sailing Mk XXVVII" would create.

Well, remember these are just two videos of many. So you'll need to dig back into history a bit to get a fuller picture - which you should because it would give you a better perspective. But let's go ahead and start here....

Yes, Tom speaks positively about the F50...as does every other skipper and crew member who is sailing them including Nathan. But if you take the time to listen to these skippers/crew objectively across their various interviews, they are not just "speaking positively", they are talking about how the F50s are beyond anything they've ever sailed before. And that obviously makes sense as these boats (and sailors) are doing what no other boats (and sailors) have ever done. But again, it's not just about the record speeds, which is my point above, it's about everything going on with the boats to reach and maintain those speeds.

You list some interesting boats above - and you've listed several similar examples in your other post (F40s, VSD, ORMA60s, etc.). So, let's look at that for a moment in terms of "redefining sailing". Think about it this way - take a Water Wag (I'm sure you know the class) and put it next to a Yarmouth. Have we "redefined sailing"? Not at all. There has definitely been a big improvement in speed and performance. - but either sailor could easily sail either boat to its full potential. Let's now bring in the Snipe - a huge jump in speed and performance...but still any of these various dinghy sailors could jump in and master it very quickly because of the very similar basic systems. And so on...

Now bring in the Moth. This is a redefinition. It's an entirely new skill-set from not only these monohull dinghy examples, but even from A-Cats, Forumulas, Nacras, etc. Here is a fun example of a race between a kiteboard, 49er, Moth.

 

You can see clearly see the differences we're talking about. Now, you might want to argue that hey, "they both have sails so they are the same" in regards to sailing. But you're going to have a very hard time convincing anyone that's logical. And listen to these very accomplished sailors/kiters talk about it after...

 

Foiling is re-defining sailing (and kiting) - period. Yes, I agree, the fundamentals of sailing are still very much in play. But, gone is most of the technique that has been used for centuries in making boats stable and fast.

Now, scale this up to the F50s. As we discussed, you how have a dedicated Flight Controller as crew. Those words themselves belie the redefinition I'm talking about. Now replace the sail with a wing, and things are redefined yet again...despite steering, grinding, and trimming still being part of the equation. Though it may rub traditionalists the wrong way - this is certainly something very new. And this is what ALL these sailors/kiters/skippers are talking about. If this were not the case and we were simply talking evolutionary steps like you're arguing, unlike a great WaterWag skipper being able to jump in a Snipe and become proficient very quickly, you wouldn't see these elite sailors at the very top of their sports coming off Lasers, 49ers, Moths, and even AC50s having the difficulties they are having handling these F50s. It's simply a new game - that is STILL developing.

But let's take this even a bit further...we're seeing (maybe) with the new AC75 that the hull configuration no longer even matters due to the foils. There's not longer a need to necessarily define a mono vs. multi. BUT - in the regard...

The remaining area to really watch here is not what's happening with the F50 and AC75 as much as, to your point, what's happening with the IMOCA 60s offshore. Can the IMOCA 60s begin to reach the same continued speeds as the tris? As you know, over the last couple of races, the IMOCAs have gotten very close to the times of the Class 2 multis. What will be the jump in performance be as the IMOCAs and ORMAs now start foiling?

That's much more of an interesting conversation...because, taking all of the above together, the FOILS are clearly showing themselves to be the true redefining of yacht racing as we've known it.

So, again, you (or anyone else) can always argue otherwise. But I have absolutely no problem saying what I'm saying. After all, this is the same thing the leading sailors in the sport are saying if you care to listen. And I believe these sailors who actually know over ANYONE posting on a forum about it.

By the way, we don't actually have broadcast TV in the house, so any claim that I am staring at the same screen as broadcast TV is utterly wrong and may merely show how much you operate from the preconception that other people are staid. Our boys aren't in the house - they are working in IT. You've given no evidence at all for your belief that you have some special knowledge of IT, the media and business, much less about sailing.

It's true, I've never been to your house. It was a bit of a metaphor. But, just so you know, the term "broadcast television" is pretty antiquated at this point in the modern media milieu. As for your boys, IT is a great field. Congrats to you and them.

As for "evidence of my special knowledge of IT/media/business", though I do have some knowledge in these areas, I really have no idea what that has to do with what we're talking about. I'm simply a fan.

By the way, what happened to your claim that we'd never seen 250k people at a sailing race?

From your other post: The Route de Rhum claimed 800,000 visitors to the race village in 2014.  In 2018 there was a claimed 248,000 people on the docks the Friday before the race, with 250,000 claimed on the Saturday. Total visitation was claimed to be 1.3 MILLION people. Independent media another report reported up to two million. Do the maths!

This is one of those points that's definitely blurry in terms of what's being compared. Visitors to a race village or docks over the span of an event is not really a crowd actually watching a race...which is what I've been more focused on because it's one of the underlying measures of "stadium racing". So, it was my mistake in bringing up that specific 250K number for Plymouth as that was very likely visitors as measured by your standard above.

That said, what we do know definitively, is that these ACWS and SailGP crowds ARE filling these stands and watching these races play out right in front of them. And that's cool. None of the 2 million RdR spectators had that opportunity.

So, touche, very much apples to oranges. I will try to keep my comparisons more....literal.

Now, I must go. I need to fetch a branch from Git, re-write some JSON functions in an app, move a database to a new subdomain that I set up - sigh. So much to do.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

^ I love the SGP, you understood nothing.

By the way, this here is not the GDR. I am used to live in a free world, and I won't let anyone tell me where or what to post.

As far as I'm concerned, you're more than welcome to post here Renn.

dg - chill bro. If people want to talk about SailGP that's what the thread is for.

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4 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

The thing people don't understand WRT the SGP is that it is a purely commercial enterprise. It could be golf, it could be motorsports, it could be anything else, by chance it is sailing this time. We are used to sailing being a corinthian sport (or at least appear corinthian, even the AC still has that aura), we are used to not paying entry fees, to our accreditation requests being accepted, and as spectators to being treated with respect and as equals.
SGP on the other hand is a product. It's sold to us as a product. Without any resemblance to the sailing etiquette we are used to. SGP sees us, the spectators, as consumers of their product, as customers at best. SGP could be washing machines, a new cereal or a new sports league. It doesn't matter, the advertising/PR is the same, the customers/consumers are treated in the same way.

With SGP Russel has made the last step. Sailing went from being a means of transport to being a sport to being a product.
(The same happened with the Rallye WC as well over time, by the way.)

Correct, SailGP is definitely a product. They've made that very clear.

I think that is actually brilliant, much needed, and way overdue. I have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever. I personally think the idea of the "Corinthian sport" and "sailing etiquette" are just antiquated notions. There is nothing with SailGP keeping those who hold these notions as important to keep doing so in whatever way they'd like. But I for one am so glad we are moving in this direction. It will be much, much better for sailing. You can see it just in the videos I've been posting of younger people being drawn to the sport. I've not heard a single one of them mention Corinth or etiquette. Cheeky bastards.

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14 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

They're not coming to talk SailGP bro, they're coming to "undermine" it and that's not what I want. We already have a Thread which is 50 Pages long where People are trying to undermine SailGP.

Well, like I've said, I don't really care about stuff like that. I can easily ignore those who have nothing of value or interest to contribute. Remember, SailGP's future certainly doesn't depend on a small gaggle of forum whingers liking it or not. They wanted the SailGP thread here - here it is.

Everyone is welcome!

Now, let's get back on track - how many days again until Marseilles?

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3 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

SailGP is a product as much as modern AC or Volvo RTW. I don't think there's any difference. The comparisons with F1 and other highly produced/productized sports is appropriate. I am under no illusions here that it's amateur buddies getting together for a 'round the cans' Friday race.

In fact, I'm glad that there's a growing professional track for young talent. They can choose to become paid professional sailors. 

The production values are getting better -- we can quibble about the details, but there's more money, more folks working hard on producing something compelling. I just hope that AC steals as many good ideas from SGP as possible, and that they both feed a growing audience and sport.

+1 martin.

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1 minute ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Are you actually accusing Larry Ellison & Russell Coutts of "Narcissistic trying to control people"? That's sad. I thought you were better than that.

My Problem is that you & others also love the AC and I think that's not healthy. You should be either in the AC Camp or in the SailGP Camp. You can't love both. It's kind of loving Djokovic, Nadal and Federer at the same time. You're either in one Camp or the other. 

No, @dg_sailingfan. I was not referring to Larry or Russell. I was referring to anyone who took it upon themselves to try to control and censor speech in an online forum that they did not own.

Honestly, I do not comprehend the notion that someone cannot love both SailGP and the America's Cup. Is that also @smackdaddy 's rule for who gets to discuss SailGP here? I really wonder about that.  What about the TP52 series? RC44 Cup?  

Can somebody also not like monohulls and multihulls?  A National League baseball team and an American League team? Ok, not both the Yankees and RedSox :)F1 and NASCAR?  

I prefer Federer to Nadal. But Serena is the GOAT.

My gender bias showing? ;)

But your stated position about "health" is just beyond anything I can fathom.  

Be well, y'all. 

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4 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Well, like I've said, I don't really care about stuff like that. I can easily ignore those who have nothing of value or interest to contribute. Remember, SailGP's future certainly doesn't depend on a small gaggle of forum whingers liking it or not. They wanted the SailGP thread here - here it is.

Everyone is welcome!

Now, how many days again until Marseilles?

25 days 13 hours

It's on the app. Heh.

Thought everyone was better once.

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Here's a good perspective from USA's Tom Burnham debriefing after Cowes...with a bit of a view of how they assess the data, etc...

Screen-Shot-2019-08-25-at-9.15.20-PM.png

Also pay attention to what he's saying at 1:48 regarding what it's like to sail these F50s.

 

 

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3 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Now, let's get back on track - how many days again until Marseilles?

 

2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Some 25 Days or so if I got that right:)

Wow mobs! This game looks fun! I'd love to Play to with this! 

Here is my question OK!

What is your favourite sailing league?!

 

 

OKOK!!. I'll give you hint... it Start with an S!

Everyone please Respond with your answer and we'll be able to talk more! Even with the likes!

Tomorrow I will ask a new question - how many days since Cowes!

Keep the great content coming! :-D But NO Girls! They scare me!

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6 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

 

In fact, I'm glad that there's a growing professional track for young talent. They can choose to become paid professional sailors. 

The production values are getting better -- we can quibble about the details, but there's more money, more folks working hard on producing something compelling. I just hope that AC steals as many good ideas from SGP as possible, and that they both feed a growing audience and sport.

Are there actually as many young talents who get paid for sailing these days? There are fewer crew on each AC boat these days, and fewer teams. If one believes that it's good to have young talent able to be paid - and I have reservations - then the current course is arguably the wrong one in some ways.

Given the results of the only two major surveys about the public's perception of sailing, there seems to be no reason why the SGP and an AC that follows its style will feed a growing sport. The public perceive our sport as expensive, dangerous, difficult and elitist, not boring. Promoting a form of the sport that is as expensive, dangerous, difficult (in some ways) and elitist as the SGP and current AC is only going to make that worse.

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Curious - you really need to watch the videos I posted in my response to you. And you should also watch the SailGP Inspire videos as well. I think you'll see that young people are not seeing things the way you're saying they're seeing things. And that's directly from their mouths - not mine.

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Oooooh I love games. 

S...S...S...oh! SailGP. The bigger guys make me wait years and I get impatient.

But you don't have to be scared of me, @dgunt_sailingfanny  

Here's an article about Billy and Marie and rebuilding their Olympic plans via SailGP. Google will translate.  SHE is formidable. 

http://www.leparisien.fr/amp/s

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5 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Oooooh I love games. 

S...S...S...oh! SailGP. The bigger guys make me wait years and I get impatient.

But you don't have to be scared of me, @dgunt_sailingfanny  

Here's an article about Billy and Marie and rebuilding their Olympic plans via SailGP. Google will translate.  SHE is formidable. 

http://www.leparisien.fr/amp/s

+1, clew.

I'm a big fan of Marie (and Billy too). It's so cool to see a woman out there rocking it. I really hope FRA can pull down a win or two in Marseilles. Very admirable sailors. And I hope we see more women on these teams next year.

Quote

The F 50 is extremely fast, waiting for 45 knots begins to become normal, we no longer have the stress of speed and we are necessarily more comfortable when we return to the small boat ( note: 20 knots speed ) . - Billy B.

 

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4 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

See? Now you're upset. Let's try to get things back on track and have a reasonable discussion...

 

 

I'm not upset; just addressing your points.

Re "Now bring in the Moth. This is a redefinition. It's an entirely new skill-set from not only these monohull dinghy examples, but even from A-Cats, Forumulas, Nacras, etc.

Not really. You can hop aboard a foiling Moth, crank it up onto the foils and go sailing. You can do the same with other foilers. You use the same skills you use with a lowrider Moth, a skiff, a windsurfer, or a Laser. I've done it - have you?

This is not "redefining" anything - it's just sailing in a way that is, in some ways, quite familiar depending on what you've sailed before. If you find it a re-definition it's because you apparently managed to ignore lowrider Moths, fast cats, windsurfers, skiffs, etc. The techniques are, in many ways, generally quite familiar to sailors who have a very different background from sailing your Catalinas and similar boats (NTTAWWT).  

Sure, there are some techniques that are new - that is common in many types of sailing. There are new techniques if you move from a Laser to a fast cat and vice versa, or from a Moth to a windsurfer, or to a fast assymetric boat from a slower symmetrical one. It's still the same sport.

 

Re "Though it may rub traditionalists the wrong way - this (wingsail) is certainly something very new"

Again, you just don't seem to know the sport very well. Wingsails have been around for over 40 years - a couple of guys I used to know and sail with had one around 1974, for example. The "traditionalists" may be people like you, who appear to have managed to ignore wingsails for decades and only recently seem to have become aware of them and assuming that because you didn't know about them, the rest of us were equally ignorant. 

 

they are talking about how the F50s are beyond anything they've ever sailed before. And that obviously makes sense as these boats (and sailors) are doing what no other boats (and sailors) have ever done. But again, it's not just about the record speeds, which is my point above, it's about everything going on with the boats to reach and maintain those speeds.

There have always been boats that are beyond everything ever sailed before. The Bradmill/ Entrad generation of 18 Foot Skiffs was before anything ever sailed before, in many ways. So was the Tornado, the water-ballasted IMOCAs, the first generation of maxis after the IMS limit was dropped, the skinny Moths, the fat skiff Magnum type Moths, the early assymetric beach cats, etc etc etc. None of them really redefined sailing.

By the way, how many of the boats in the list above have you ever sailed?

 

Here is a fun example of a race between a kiteboard, 49er, Moth."  And listen to these very accomplished sailors/kiters talk about it after...

Do you realise that's a 2010 vid, and that many of us had watched it and sailed foilers, 9ers etc before that vid came out?  Sure, those guys liked their foils. Of course they did, they are fun. But the personal opinion of a few people does not redefine a sport. 

 

"The remaining area to really watch here is not what's happening with the F50 and AC75 as much as, to your point, what's happening with the IMOCA 60s offshore. Can the IMOCA 60s begin to reach the same continued speeds as the tris? As you know, over the last couple of races, the IMOCAs have gotten very close to the times of the Class 2 multis. What will be the jump in performance be as the IMOCAs and ORMAs now start foiling?"

What's so important about that? Okay, so the IMOCAs finish their races two days earlier - how does that redefine sailing? The first water ballasted wide IMOCAs were significantly quicker than older 60 foot singlehanded boats, but that didn't redefine the sport. They were fun to sail (have you tried them?) but they didn't redefine the sport any more than (say) Credit Agricole IV or Ecureuil d'Aquitaine II.  There has always been progression, but that does not mean that the sport is redefined.

 

this is the same thing the leading sailors in the sport are saying if you care to listen. 


Oh for heaven's sake - I sail against one of the world's top foiling cat sailors most weekends.  Many other people are in similar situations. Why do you assume we're not listening? The fact that you've apparently had your eyes closed for years does not mean that others have.

However, the fact that one is a successful competitive sailor does not mean that one is an expert in sports management, sports marketing, IT or any other field. They are different areas that use different skills and knowledge, as is proven by the fact that many people who are experts in sports management, marketing, IT and other fields are not great sailors. To use one example, beating Olympic veterans to win the national champs and finish top 3 in the world in a form of sailing does NOT necessarily mean that you know how that discipline should be marketed, what it may do for sailing, and how it may effect the sport - it just means that you can do it well.  Expertise on the water and expertise in sports management and marketing are different things.

 

"And I believe these sailors who actually know over ANYONE posting on a forum about it."

That may be because you don't know some of the people who have posted on forums.  And as noted above, there is no reason to think that because someone can handle a Laser Radial well (to use the example in one of those vids) they are therefore an expert on the marketing of the sport and its history and future.

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^oh yeah. Oracle is a huge data broker, something like 5B IDs assembled into "45,000 prebuilt audiences based on demographic, behavioral, B2B, online, offline and transactional data" for sale. They are a big crossplatform tracker/broker. 

Big O was notorious for having early customers be testers, now it is we freeloading fans.  Like I said, they plan to extend to other sports. Larry learned many things from Japan and keiretsu was a big one.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90310803/here-are-the-data-brokers-quietly-buying-and-selling-your-personal-information

 

Note: This is not unique in the commercial world (right, @smackdaddy ?) and does not mean I don't like SailGP. I do suggest using a burner device for the app, lol not lol.

Facebook is scary, too. Fortunately they are tracking a ghost in my case.

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Ah, well - I didn't know you were so accomplished Curious. I suppose I should be wrapped in awe, listening to you wide-eyed and rosy-cheekd. I mean, I do genuinely respect accomplished sailors. But there might be some holes here....

1 hour ago, Curious said:

I'm not upset; just addressing your points.

Re "Now bring in the Moth. This is a redefinition. It's an entirely new skill-set from not only these monohull dinghy examples, but even from A-Cats, Forumulas, Nacras, etc. Here is a fun example of a race between a kiteboard, 49er, Moth."

No it's not. You can hop aboard a foiling Moth, crank it up onto the foils and go sailing. You can do the same with other foilers. I've done just that- have you?  

This is not "redefining" anything - it's just sailing in a way that is, in some ways, quite familiar depending on what you've sailed before. If you find it a re-definition it's because you apparently managed to ignore lowrider Moths, fast cats, windsurfers, skiffs, etc. The techniques are, in many ways, quite familiar, to sailors who have a very different background from sailing your Catalinas and similar boats (NTTAWWT).  

I've never claimed to be an expert. I'm simply a fan. YOU, however, are claiming to be an expert. Maybe you are - maybe you're not. But it doesn't really matter. Because there's absolutely no question that guys like Slingsby, Outteridge, Besson, Fletcher, Kirby, and Robertson ARE actually experts. And they don't agree with your attempted wienie swinging here. They're simply not saying what you're saying.

So who are we fans to believe? Real sailors - or Curious?

Again, you can try to get personal, but it doesn't matter to me. You're still wrong.

Re "Though it may rub traditionalists the wrong way - this (wingsail) is certainly something very new"

Again, you just don't seem to know the sport very well. Wingsails have been around for over 40 years - a couple of guys I used to know and sail with had one around 1974, for example. The "traditionalists" may be people like you, who appear to have managed to ignore wingsails for decades and only recently seem to have become aware of them and assuming that because you didn't know about them, the rest of us were equally ignorant. 

Well sure. And foils have been around since the early 1900's.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Forlanini_Idroplano-Forlani_Hydrofoil_1910.jpg

Yet we are just now seeing boats that are breaking 50 knots. How can that be? Do you really need me to say "articulated", "internally controlled, "modular" when talking about these wings so we know we're not just the other side of Woodstock? This is a good example of the "semantics" Ren was talking about. Your "semantics" are disingenuous...and silly.

Why, there have been "boats" around since even before 1974. What in the hell does that have to do with anything? Sorry, you have to do better than that. Very weak...and not worth the trouble.

they are talking about how the F50s are beyond anything they've ever sailed before. And that obviously makes sense as these boats (and sailors) are doing what no other boats (and sailors) have ever done. But again, it's not just about the record speeds, which is my point above, it's about everything going on with the boats to reach and maintain those speeds.

There have always been boats that are beyond everything ever sailed before. The Bradmill/ Entrad generation of 18 Foot Skiffs was before anything ever sailed before, in many ways. So was the Tornado, the water-ballasted IMOCAs, the first generation of maxis after the IMS limit was dropped, the skinny Moths, the fat skiff Magnum type Moths, the early assymetric beach cats, etc etc etc. None of them really redefined sailing.

By the way, how many of the boats in the list above have you ever sailed?

It doesn't matter. SailGP is not about me. And I hate to break it to you, but it's even not about you. It's about what is actually happening on the water - and the fans. What boats you might claim to have sailed has absolutely no bearing on whether F50s are redefining sailing or not. They are. And you're simply wrong...despite you're impressively expanding CV.

And listen to these very accomplished sailors/kiters talk about it after...

Do you realise that's a 2010 vid, and that many of us had watched it and sailed foilers, 9ers etc before that vid came out?  Sure, those guys liked their foils. Of course they did, they are fun. But the personal opinion of a few people does not redefine a sport. 

Sure. I take it you've seen the foiling kiteboards (another video linked herein) and surfboards guys like Slater are working? Actually, I take that back - I'm sure you've probably already shown all these youngsters how it's done on every one of these. You're just that badass.

But, as I've said already, your last sentence above is exactly what I'm talking about. The rambling personal opinions of a self-professed god-of-sailing on an internet forum has even less value than a 9 year old video of people who actually do what you're claiming to have done.

Again, maybe you are all that, Curious. I'd love to see the videos. But even if you really are - then you're pretty much a lone voice in your myopic personal opinions on the subject. Surely you can see that?

"The remaining area to really watch here is not what's happening with the F50 and AC75 as much as, to your point, what's happening with the IMOCA 60s offshore. Can the IMOCA 60s begin to reach the same continued speeds as the tris? As you know, over the last couple of races, the IMOCAs have gotten very close to the times of the Class 2 multis. What will be the jump in performance be as the IMOCAs and ORMAs now start foiling?"

What's so important about that? Okay, so the IMOCAs finish their races two days earlier - how does that redefine sailing? The first water ballasted wide IMOCAs were significantly quicker than older 60 foot singlehanded boats, but that didn't redefine the sport. They were fun to sail (have you tried them?) but they didn't redefine the sport any more than (say) Credit Agricole IV or Ecureuil d'Aquitaine II.  There has always been progression, but that does not mean that the sport is redefined.

Oh boy - I'm really starting to question your CV now. Look, you've got your entrenched viewpoint. You should keep it. It suits you. In the mean time, the rest of the world will be truly impressed when foiling IMOCA's shave 2 full days off their times - in open ocean conditions, and start matching the tri times. That's what every single racer on every single boat is trying to do in adopting these new technologies.

So, you stay comfortable in your lawn chair, pop another can of Schlitz, and yell at the kids whilst tugging at your support hose.

this is the same thing the leading sailors in the sport are saying if you care to listen.

Oh for heaven's sake - I sail against one of the world's top foiling cat sailors most weekends.  Many other people are in similar situations. Why do you assume we're not listening? The fact that you've apparently had your eyes closed for years does not mean that others have.

Yes, we know. You're awesome. And yet you're wrong.

However, the fact that one is a successful competitive sailor does not mean that one is an expert in sports management, sports marketing, IT or any other field. They are different areas that use different skills and knowledge, as is proven by the fact that many people who are experts in sports management, marketing, IT and other fields are not great sailors. To use one example, beating Olympic veterans to win the national champs and finish top 3 in the world in a form of sailing does NOT necessarily mean that you know how that discipline should be marketed, what it may do for sailing, and how it may effect the sport - it just means that you can do it well.  Expertise on the water and expertise in sports management and marketing are different things.

I have no idea where you're trying to go with this - but I think these things are pretty self evident.

"And I believe these sailors who actually know over ANYONE posting on a forum about it."

That may be because you don't know some of the people who have posted on forums.  And as noted above, there is no reason to think that because someone can handle a Laser Radial well (to use the example in one of those vids) they are therefore an expert on the marketing of the sport and its history and future.

Again, you're rambling here. But one thing is certain - forums are, for the most part, places where anyone can say or claim anything. It's all free-flowing, largely anonymous opinion that really doesn't mean much at the end of the day.

All that truly matters is what is actually happening in reality - out there on the water.

I am perfectly fine with you insisting nothing has been redefined. You hang on to that because you need it. In the mean time, many others who actually know simply disagree. And SailGP continues on its merry way - foiling, with wings, and Flight Controllers, and crazy huge live data streams, at 50+ knots, to the gasps and cheers of growing crowds, etcetera, etcetera...

 

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A couple of posts back, you were saying we should try to have a reasonable discussion. Now you're throwing stupid insults around. That's pretty silly.  It's sad that you're so desperate to be right that you make up stuff, as you did with the claims about crowd numbers and the history of wingsails. Simple fact - you don't know the stuff you spout.

The fact that you find it hard to believe that lots of people have sailed many different fast craft just shows how narrow your own background is. I never claim to be awesome, or a legend  If you don't understand how lots of people could have grown up in an environment with skiffs, boards, and Moths around then it just shows how isolated and insular your own sailing experience has been. Let's face it, you're the one who blogs about the amazing experience of sailing a half-sunk 1973 beachcat, or brags in your blog about reaching 10 knots. But if you stuck your head into the wider world, you'd see that sailing has been about a lot more than the stuff you have experienced for a long while.

It's rather odd  to see you just flail from one attempt to throw lame insults (like claiming I don't care to listen to top foilers) to another (like claiming I'm bullshitting when I say I do, regularly).  It's illogical for you to claim that foiling etc is "redefining the sport" but then imply that other people can't sail against top foiler sailors. If foiling cats are so rare that you believe that anyone who says their are good foilers at their home club is bullshitting, then cat foiling must be so rare that it's not redefining the sport.

Here's one more piece of evidence. The SCHRS rating system rates foiling cats at just 2% quicker than their non-foiling sisters. That's about the same, or less, as the speed advantage you get by sticking an assy onto a cat. But sticking spinnakers on cats didn't "redefine sailing".  And windsurfers have been not just sitting above the water, but doing double loop-the-loops in mid air and doing over 40 knots, but it hasn't "redefined sailing". They are both just fascinating parts of the sport that is still mostly about craft like Lasers, Catalinas and Hobies. The fact that you managed to basically ignore multis for much of a lifetime just underlines the problem. You just don't know what has happened before in the sport and how it relates to what is happening now. 

It's hard to work why you think that things "pretty self evident" and I can't see how you can see one paragraph is "rambling", but the facts are pretty clear. The fact that a person is a great sailor does not make them an expert on the future direction of the sport, its popular appeal, and its marketing.

 

 

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2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

^oh yeah. Oracle is a huge data broker, something like 5B IDs assembled into "45,000 prebuilt audiences based on demographic, behavioral, B2B, online, offline and transactional data" for sale. They are a big crossplatform tracker/broker.

Yep, then work out who all their friends are and target them all with anti-AC propaganda.

Nice plan Larry.  Geoblock the fuck out of them till they identify themselves so he can reek his revenge on the Kiwis.

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Hey @Curious, we can all see you cornered at the bar by that lonely loser drunk... don't waste your time, just leave him there 'redefining' himself over and over ;-)

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8 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Are you actually accusing Larry Ellison & Russell Coutts of "Narcissistic trying to control people"? That's sad. I thought you were better than that.

My Problem is that you & others also love the AC and I think that's not healthy. You should be either in the AC Camp or in the SailGP Camp. You can't love both. It's kind of loving Djokovic, Nadal and Federer at the same time. You're either in one Camp or the other. 

Get help.

8 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Correct, SailGP is definitely a product. They've made that very clear.

I think that is actually brilliant, much needed, and way overdue. I have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever. I personally think the idea of the "Corinthian sport" and "sailing etiquette" are just antiquated notions. There is nothing with SailGP keeping those who hold these notions as important to keep doing so in whatever way they'd like. But I for one am so glad we are moving in this direction. It will be much, much better for sailing. You can see it just in the videos I've been posting of younger people being drawn to the sport. I've not heard a single one of them mention Corinth or etiquette. Cheeky bastards.

And I don't really care, as long as the commercial version is as friendly and amiable as the corinthian. Which it unfortunately isn't. 

Goes with the young, uneducated brats not knowing about etiquette. Normal for any youth, they will grow up too. Until then they will add to the spreading disrespect in this world. 

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4 hours ago, Curious said:

A couple of posts back, you were saying we should try to have a reasonable discussion. Now you're throwing stupid insults around.

You haven't been?

It's illogical for you to claim that foiling etc is "redefining the sport" but then imply that other people can't sail against top foiler sailors.

I really don't know what you're talking about here. Anyone can "sail against" anyone. What does that have to do with anything? My point is you should listen a bit more closely to these top foiling sailors. They're not saying what you're saying.

Here's one more piece of evidence. The SCHRS rating system rates foiling cats at just 2% quicker than their non-foiling sisters. That's about the same, or less, as the speed advantage you get by sticking an assy onto a cat. But sticking spinnakers on cats didn't "redefine sailing".  And windsurfers have been not just sitting above the water, but doing double loop-the-loops in mid air and doing over 40 knots, but it hasn't "redefined sailing". They are both just fascinating parts of the sport that is still mostly about craft like Lasers, Catalinas and Hobies.

I get it. You don't want sailing redefined. As I said you should hang on to that. Many top sailors, however, disagree with you.

It's hard to work why you think that things "pretty self evident" and I can't see how you can see one paragraph is "rambling", but the facts are pretty clear. The fact that a person is a great sailor does not make them an expert on the future direction of the sport, its popular appeal, and its marketing.

Except for you?

As I said, and as is clear by now, I'm a fan of SailGP. It's really that simple. You are welcome to your opinion, Curious. But it's not very compelling in the face of what's actually going on and what the actual great sailors are saying about it. So, I think you should take it up with them. I'll enjoy that conversation.

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