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4 hours ago, JimC said:

Although that's basically true, there are limits. There's copyright in the original plans and drawings, but in most jurisdictions there's no copyright in the actual hull shape. So its legitimate for me to take the lines off a Laser or whatever and sell my own lines plan. 

The serious restrictions in producing and continuing to produce Lasers were all in contracts, and the US legal system appears to be so thoroughly broken that goodness only knows whether those contracts will ever prove to be enforceable or not. If they are then LPE will be utterly out of the Laser game due to termination clauses in the contracts. But then LPE appears to be being dissolved anyway.

In general the designer of a class receives their (normally very small) royalty principally because as reasonable civilised humans beings we recognise that designers should receive something for their work so long as that work remains saleable. The alternative is the situation, beloved by google and their like, that the only person who doesn't receive a payment when something is sold is the person who was smart enough to do the creative work that made the whole thing possible.

LPE/LP LLC, in offering highly discounted boats and sails with no royalty paid, appears to be attempting to not only remove the ILCAs revenue stream, but also represent ILCA and WS as taking large amounts of money from sailors. This would seem to be highly misleading, since the actual charge for plaques/sail buttons is a tiny fraction of the discounts on offer, which seem to be coming principally from LPs profit margin.

Jim why is there no copyright in the hull shape ?

to lift the hull lines (geometry) and sell the the lines plan - is a definite infringement in copyright !

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15 minutes ago, Ginko said:

to lift the hull lines (geometry) and sell the the lines plan - is a definite infringement in copyright !

Another one that has to be saved.  You just canntt make this stuff up.  OMG, LOL. 

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11 minutes ago, Wess said:

Another one that has to be saved.  You just canntt make this stuff up.  OMG, LOL. 

Wess what are you smoking ?

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Absolutely nothing.  Well... an occasional cigar (and scotch) with sponsor kids around USNA graduation but I digress. 

Do go on typing.  Please.  I love your theories on Bruce Kirby IP and copyrights on line drawings.

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36 minutes ago, Wess said:

Absolutely nothing.  Well... an occasional cigar (and scotch) with sponsor kids around USNA graduation but I digress. 

Do go on typing.  Please.  I love your theories on Bruce Kirby IP and copyrights on line drawings.

Theories on Copyright  ?

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17 hours ago, drLaser said:

Frankly, I tend to agree, tiller. And I will agree with you until somebody (WS or ILCA) explains to me all that is "wrong" with an Olympic Class dinghy having a "club" version that does not adhere all of the rules of the design. What are the negative results of this? Anybody?

We have a fleet of 25 club owned Optis. 13 boats are class legal, 12 boats are either old strongly build FRP or rotomolded boats for the beginner courses. The Opti class has a clear definition of what a class legal boat is. I don't know what happened with the design rights of the Opti, but nobody ever cared about the non class legal boats as far as I know. That might be different with Lasers. In the US the situation is quite clear, as there is no copyright on industrial designs like boats. The contracts between BK and LP were about class legal boats. To build non class legal boats seems to be allowed in the US. In Europe the situation might be different, as boatdesigns are protected under copyright, so even for building non class legal boats License Fees to the designer propably must be paid. But that's completely unrelated to WS or ILCA.

I don't know how many countries have no copyright on industrial design vs countries who have. I only know for sure Germany and France have boatdesign copyrights. 

 

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6 hours ago, JimC said:

LPE/LP LLC, in offering highly discounted boats and sails with no royalty paid, appears to be attempting to not only remove the ILCAs revenue stream, but also represent ILCA and WS as taking large amounts of money from sailors. This would seem to be highly misleading, since the actual charge for plaques/sail buttons is a tiny fraction of the discounts on offer, which seem to be coming principally from LPs profit margin.

OK. So what EXACTLY are the fees (in $) we talking about for plaques + sail buttons + WS + new builder license fees (or whatever the hell they are called)? Wess is talking significant amounts, and Jim, you are talking tiny fractions.

 

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I wonder if Lasers will be priced like budget airline flights:

A front page price of £5,000 for the boat  + £1500 WS fee + £500 GS fee + £400 TM fee + £300 ILCA fee (all numbers made up)

Really the fees associated with racing in ILCA events  (the WS and ILCA parts) ought to be added to ILCA annual subs.  In the EU there are probably laws against making citizens pay for services they aren't able to make use of. 

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In all classes which need to be measured I think the client has to pay extra money for this plus the plaque. So if you buy a Finn, and don't want to race you don't have to pay.. Same with sail measurement and buttons. 

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2 hours ago, bill4 said:

OK. So what EXACTLY are the fees (in $) we talking about for plaques + sail buttons + WS + new builder license fees (or whatever the hell they are called)? Wess is talking significant amounts, and Jim, you are talking tiny fractions.

 

According to Laser Performance Website Laser with plaque is UKP 5,978.16 and Laser Club UKP 4,250 and the text on the LP website says:

Quote

the only difference is that the Laser Club Edition comes without plaque or sail button.  Instead we pass the savings on to you so you can sail the boat you love for less this season.

.

If I can add up the difference is  ~£1,728 or so. 

According to the ISAF regs the plaque fee is based on 0.4% of the average retail price, and 0.4% of £6,000 is I believe £24.

One suspects a little economy with the old actualite somewhere. 

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4 hours ago, bill4 said:

OK. So what EXACTLY are the fees (in $) we talking about for plaques + sail buttons + WS + new builder license fees (or whatever the hell they are called)?

As you know, the new builder license fees (if any) are not determined yet. They may not even exist if the current TM Holders can not decide what that is supposed to be.

On the other hand, if my memory does not fail me, when LP posted a set of documents on their website, they also posted a document titled "ILCA - Schedule 1 – Proposed FRAND Licence and Class/QR Fees".

It is not easy for me to determine exactly what this Schedule 1 is, since nobody has published so far the "Olympic Classes Contract" that sets the terms between the Class and WS. There is also a related "Olympic Equipment Fee Policy" document that LP signed, although they are not a party to that "policy".

In any case, that Schedule 1 reveals that the total (so-called) "FRAND Fees" for a fully equipped Standard rig boat (w/ carbon upper) add up to $546. For the same boat, the (so called) "Class/QR Fees" add up to $97

The corresponding numbers are $536 and $95 for the Radial (carbon upper) and  $532 and $94  for the 4.7 (carbon upper). 

For aluminum upper, subtract $20 from each FRAND Fee and $3 from each Class/QR Fee.

Apparently, these were just "numbers proposed by ILCA". 

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1 hour ago, drLaser said:

$546

In the interview FR said this is money that is going into the pockets of ILCA. I believe Tracy explained that this was meant to be the money, that was planned to be the license fees for the trademark holders. Means if the Name Laser has to be used by all new builders each new builders boat must be 800-1000 euros more expensive than generic named boats. 

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I don't know whether you used the word "fleet" intentionally, @Gouvernail... And I assume your question was not a rhetorical question.

Honestly, my best guess, Fred, would be "a European - most likely Italian - Laser Fleet banning the entry of otherwise-branded or generic Lasers" (i.e., hulls manufactured by the new WS-approved builders or by unapproved builders).

Why Italians?

1) Italians have been most vocal in standing by LP and EurILCA during the recent vote; 

2) Italians, being Mediterraneans, are hot-blooded and are prone to imposing impulsive, severe rules;

3) Italians are used to having the recognition of their national class association revoked by ILCA due to unresolved disputes affecting the Italian Laser sailors. ;)

I find the opposite - fleets with otherwise-branded or generic Lasers banning "real Lasers" - unlikely.

In South America, "Laser look-alikes" as well as real Lasers are already welcome in fleet racing. More generally, in the 30+ "Green" countries without Laser Class Associations like TUR, GRE etc., for club, inter-club, regional or even national-level racing, nobody even checks if a Laser has a plaque or any parts have valid labels or reference numbers - since there are not even any "Laser Fleets"! (The best effort I have seen in TUR during the last 15 years was checking of the sail buttons in one "Istanbul Sailing Week" event participated in by more than 20 nations.)

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While I don't see the non-laser, (no plaque) laser deal taking off I do think it would be funny if LP all of the sudden shipped 2,000 non-laser lasers to NA when for years they haven't been able to ship 10, (or whatever the dismal amount has been) real lasers in.  I would find it funnier if anyone outside of the resort or "club boat" market would buy one.

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Rumours on FB that the PSA Lasers taken to Canada on a carnet have actually been sold in Canada at pretty cheap prices.  

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

While I don't see the non-laser, (no plaque) laser deal taking off I do think it would be funny if LP all of the sudden shipped 2,000 non-laser lasers to NA when for years they haven't been able to ship 10, (or whatever the dismal amount has been) real lasers in.  I would find it funnier if anyone outside of the resort or "club boat" market would buy one.

It seems to have worked for the Club 420. What do you think is the difference? (Noting I have no clue how the Club 420 actually “did it”)

 

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11 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Rumours on FB that the PSA Lasers taken to Canada on a carnet have actually been sold in Canada at pretty cheap prices.  

Total misinformatIon.

There were no PSA Lasers taken to Canada.

They were ILCAs.

ilcas_in_kingston.jpg

 

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16 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Rumours on FB that the PSA Lasers taken to Canada on a carnet have actually been sold in Canada at pretty cheap prices.  

begone troll

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4 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Troll?  

right. you posted a contentious and unsourced 'rumor from FB' that is both flagrant misinformation and contradicted by statements from class officials. And, I suspect that you did it just to rile people up. textbook trolling.

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38 minutes ago, bill4 said:

It seems to have worked for the Club 420. What do you think is the difference? (Noting I have no clue how the Club 420 actually “did it”)

 

Different animal.  Don't know. Don't care.

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Seems like the people involved are Pete Conway (Who has been a huge advocate of the Rastegar position) and Derek Stow (a promoter of the Aero - who is more covert in his anti Laser posts).

I don't have the information that Pete Conway has. In the same post, I get (almost) named as a liar.

image.png.3c969eefea9d56de94aed7c9d01358bb.png

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22 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

right. you posted a contentious and unsourced 'rumor from FB' that is both flagrant misinformation and contradicted by statements from class officials. And, I suspect that you did it just to rile people up. textbook trolling.

Tom Ehman of Sailing Illustrated is reporting it.  Tune in to his show in just under 2 hours time for more info.  But I’m glad you acknowledge that class officials made statements that this wouldn’t happen. 

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1 hour ago, dgmckim said:

right. you posted a contentious and unsourced 'rumor from FB' that is both flagrant misinformation and contradicted by statements from class officials. And, I suspect that you did it just to rile people up. textbook trolling.

Oh come on the class officials have been as full of sh*t as anyone else in this mess.  But if they have done this - no clue if its true - they are either amazingly stupid or for reason I do not understand are attempting to goad LPE into litigating.  Interesting development if its true. Time will tell.  And dude, much as I enjoy your posts you are far more of a troll and add far less truthful insight to these threads than SoSoo does. 

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1 hour ago, dgmckim said:

right. you posted a contentious and unsourced 'rumor from FB' that is both flagrant misinformation and contradicted by statements from class officials. And, I suspect that you did it just to rile people up. textbook trolling.

That's a bit harsh, given @sosoomii's post is correct. Bearing in mind that PSA may have well imported the boats on a carnet (or told ILCA they were), and then made arrangements to sell them once the 'yes' vote outcome was known.

PSA boats have been bought in Europe and NA for years, why is this surprising anyone? Regardless, if we believe Rastegar, the boats will be seized before they can be sold anyway...:lol:

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20 minutes ago, greenwhiteblack said:

That's a bit harsh, given @sosoomii's post is correct. Bearing in mind that PSA may have well imported the boats on a carnet (or told ILCA they were), and then made arrangements to sell them once the 'yes' vote outcome was known.

PSA boats have been bought in Europe and NA for years, why is this surprising anyone? Regardless, if we believe Rastegar, the boats will be seized before they can be sold anyway...:lol:

Yeah.  No one is gonna ever see those boats again, (if true) those things are "in the wind"! I'm sure they are tucked away snug in some very happy new boat owners garages! I'm jealous..

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21 minutes ago, greenwhiteblack said:

PSA boats have been bought in Europe and NA for years, why is this surprising anyone? Regardless, if we believe Rastegar, the boats will be seized before they can be sold anyway...:lol:

Rumor has it that the Canadian Mounted Customs Officers Yacht Club will shortly be taking deliver of a fleet of 50 Rubatoes.

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2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Tom Ehman of Sailing Illustrated is reporting it.  Tune in to his show in just under 2 hours time for more info.  But I’m glad you acknowledge that class officials made statements that this wouldn’t happen. 

Tom Ehman's show is postponed because of a rain delay or something.

And if you believe that I have 50 ILCA Dinghies I can sell you at a bargain price.

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13 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Rumor has it that the Canadian Mounted Customs Officers Yacht Club will shortly be taking deliver of a fleet of 50 Rubatoes.

Image result for mountie on a sailboat

I don't sail often, but when I do, I choose a Laser Standard Rig. 

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4 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Tom Ehman of Sailing Illustrated is reporting it.  Tune in to his show in just under 2 hours time for more info.  But I’m glad you acknowledge that class officials made statements that this wouldn’t happen. 

What Tom Ehman said in his show was that the earlier report that these boats had been imported into Canada on a temporary import permit - a "carnet" - was incorrect. Anybody remember where that information came from?

So the sale of these boats may not be an issue for Canadian Customs. 

But I wonder what LaserPerformance will have to say about it?

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I can't see what should be the problem to import these boats to Canada, as long as there is no  "Laser" trademark on the boats. 

The boats were build class legally by somebody who owns a trademark, they are class legal boats. 

Don't know what this has to do with a yes or no vote. If there is no trademark infringement, there is nothing LPE can do against this. 

I could not find anything about the belgium case, but propably these boats had the old plaque that showed the Laser trademark. Does anybody know more about this? 

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38 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Anybody remember where that information came from?

Eric commented it from his personal FB account in the original post of the photos of the ILCA branded boats in "The Sailors Voice" FB page. 

9 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

Does anybody know more about this? 

Belgian dealer Optiteam was acting as a dealer for PSA in Europe, and got taken to court by LP. 

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9 minutes ago, greenwhiteblack said:

Eric commented it from his personal FB account in the original post of the photos of the ILCA branded boats in "The Sailors Voice" FB page. 

Belgian dealer Optiteam was acting as a dealer for PSA in Europe, and got taken to court by LP. 

And LP won the Belgian case. https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2015/02/01/laserperformance-wins-laser-trademark-case/

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If the Belgian boats were sold as Replica Lasers (with acknowledgement being made to copyright in the Trademark name Laser ~ using / acknowledgement of the word Laser multiple times) under a brand name say Torch or ILCA there would be no grounds for LPE to issue a claim for infringement.

Why has this taken so long ?

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Probably perfectly legal by Canadian laws as long as the boats contain no offending "Laser" trademarks.  It is most likely in blatant violation of the builder contracts, but those apparently don't carry much weight.

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Just now, torrid said:

It is most likely in blatant violation of the builder contracts, but those apparently don't carry much weight.

What makes you think this? Genuinely interested.

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3 minutes ago, greenwhiteblack said:

What makes you think this? Genuinely interested.

It's what I would expect if I owned a boat-building business with exclusive rights to a territory.  I would want to make sure a potential competitor would not be able to import identical products into my region.

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1 hour ago, jgh66 said:

as long as there is no  "Laser" trademark on the boats... there is no trademark infringement, there is nothing LPE can do against this. 

I don't think that it's that simple.

All of the following analysis assumes these Lasers were in fact sold to individual customers rather than being shipped back to Australia or South Korea. I hope that is not the case. Nevertheless:

The import occurred before the vote. So, there is no argument that the "old rules of the game" were (and still are) in force. And the existing trademark agreements between the parties (back then and right now) regulate not only who can use the Laser TM where, but also who can sell these boats (in an organized, commercial manner) in which territories of the World. So, this is why "it's not that simple."

It was noted several times here that individual sailors or individual organizations (but not dealers) could order Lasers from "extra-territorial" builders, but only for non-commercial, non-business, personal use purposes. (This exactly parallels the current clause 7.1(a) in the suggested WS "Commercial Undertakings Agreement.") 

So now, the critical issue seems to be whether these 50 or so ILCA Dinghy Lasers manufactured by PSA are to be considered to be imported (i) upon the order/request placed by a party with commercial interests, or (ii) upon the order/request placed by an organization without any commercial interests.

The answer to that may be simple: CORK and ILCA, as membership associations, are not profit-seeking commercial entities. But even if this answer is simple, there would then be a secondary issue of the transfer of these boats from CORK/ILCA to individual third parties - which may then qualify CORK/ILCA as a "commercial interest". And that would give LP grounds for a legal case. Thus, it is obvious that the "correct" approach for PSA here is not to involve CORK or ILCA as the customer organization

So, let's say PSA brought the boats unilaterally as a favor to ILCA, without involving any intermediary distributors or dealers or organizations, and then sold "some of them" (say 2, or 49) to interested individual sailors (probably at some price marginally higher than the used boat prices of these hulls, minus the transportation and handling costs back to and in PSA territories).

Under the "existing rules", there is no question in my mind that these boats are "Lasers". The only problem here is that the new buyers did not pre-order these Lasers. If they had ordered these Lasers from PSA before the hulls were imported into Canada, then I think there would be no case LP could make. 

But...

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

What Tom Ehman said in his show was that the earlier report that these boats had been imported into Canada on a temporary import permit - a "carnet" - was incorrect. Anybody remember where that information came from?
 

Thanks to @greenwhiteblack for identifying the source of the story about the "carnet."  Eric Faust did indeed post it in a comment in The Saillor's Voice group on Facebook abut 3 weeks ago. Here is what Eric said...

The boats were brought in on an ATA Carnet (temporary import) with different decals for trademark reasons. For racing, all the external decals have been removed. No issues with customs coming into Canada because they weren't using the trademark. The boats will be used at two events and then taken out of the country.

It seems that Eric was misinformed, or perhaps misunderstood the actual situation. 

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5 hours ago, drLaser said:

I don't think that it's that simple.

All of the following analysis assumes these Lasers were in fact sold to individual customers rather than being shipped back to Australia or South Korea. I hope that is not the case. Nevertheless:

The import occurred before the vote. So, there is no argument that the "old rules of the game" were (and still are) in force. And the existing trademark agreements between the parties (back then and right now) regulate not only who can use the Laser TM where, but also who can sell these boats (in an organized, commercial manner) in which territories of the World. So, this is why "it's not that simple."

It was noted several times here that individual sailors or individual organizations (but not dealers) could order Lasers from "extra-territorial" builders, but only for non-commercial, non-business, personal use purposes. (This exactly parallels the current clause 7.1(a) in the suggested WS "Commercial Undertakings Agreement.") 

So now, the critical issue seems to be whether these 50 or so ILCA Dinghy Lasers manufactured by PSA are to be considered to be imported (i) upon the order/request placed by a party with commercial interests, or (ii) upon the order/request placed by an organization without any commercial interests.

The answer to that may be simple: CORK and ILCA, as membership associations, are not profit-seeking commercial entities. But even if this answer is simple, there would then be a secondary issue of the transfer of these boats from CORK/ILCA to individual third parties - which may then qualify CORK/ILCA as a "commercial interest". And that would give LP grounds for a legal case. Thus, it is obvious that the "correct" approach for PSA here is not to involve CORK or ILCA as the customer organization

So, let's say PSA brought the boats unilaterally as a favor to ILCA, without involving any intermediary distributors or dealers or organizations, and then sold "some of them" (say 2, or 49) to interested individual sailors (probably at some price marginally higher than the used boat prices of these hulls, minus the transportation and handling costs back to and in PSA territories).

Under the "existing rules", there is no question in my mind that these boats are "Lasers". The only problem here is that the new buyers did not pre-order these Lasers. If they had ordered these Lasers from PSA before the hulls were imported into Canada, then I think there would be no case LP could make. 

But...

What kind of of trademark agreement are you talking about? The olympic contracts, in which the TM holders must allow import of individual buyers? 

This is - in my understanding for boats which would infrnge the TM holders rights, boats that show the Laser TM. If there is no TM infringement, there is nothing a TM holder can do against it. Hence there is no need for contracts... It is just legal to import the boats. 

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The main issue is who is selling the boats in Canada, and under what brand name/advertising. 

If Canadian dealers were selling the boats as a "Laser" in LP trademark territory, this would be a direct infringement - as per the Optiteam case. 

However, as has been established, PSA can sell boats to non-dealer customers, for non-commercial purposes outside of their TM territory. In my opinion, if PSA send the boats to Canada under a carnet import - ie they're essentially not in Canada as they're guaranteed to leave - then someone in Canada happens to want to buy them, they simply carry out a full importation and it is no different to if the boats had been pre-ordered from Australia. Further, I think that PSA are allowed to label their boats as 'ILCA dinghies' (noting that the boats were built and labelled at the time when ILCA announced the class name change) given they 'have the rights to use the Laser TM' as per the class rule, and then import them in to Canada and sell them as ILCA dinghies regardless. 

It seems like PSA's position is that as long as it is not advertised as a "Laser", it's legal to sell outside their territory hence the advertisement years ago calling for 'dealers for the Kirby Designed Olympic Dinghy in Europe'. 

 

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I think if a dealer is selling the boats as Kirby designed  class legal olympic singlehanded dinghy there should be no problem. If they try to sell as ILCA class legal boats - no idea, as  ILCA stands for International Laser Class, so the name Laser is included. One judge could view this as a trademark infringement, the other not. On the other hand ILCA owns the trademark ILCA for selling boats and can license that Trademark to builders... As a dealer I would still avoid using the ILCA trademark,  as I would not want to give FR any chance to sue me. 

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On 8/8/2019 at 6:49 AM, tillerman said:


Ridiculous. All for a regatta with entry limited to 40 Laser sailors and 40 Radial sailors that only happens every 4 years. 

But which lured hundreds of juniors, youths And adults into the class, and also created the interest from NAs and governments that supports the class in many countries 

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The crucial factor we don't know is the exact wording of the territorial sales agreement between the TM holders.

I doubt very much that the TM Holders agreed not to sell in each other's territories simply "boats with Laser decals". That would have been so stupid. You can just remove the decal! They must have agreed not to sell in each other's territories "boats conforming to the LCMA".

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On 8/9/2019 at 2:22 AM, sosoomii said:

I wonder if Lasers will be priced like budget airline flights:

A front page price of £5,000 for the boat  + £1500 WS fee + £500 GS fee + £400 TM fee + £300 ILCA fee (all numbers made up)

Really the fees associated with racing in ILCA events  (the WS and ILCA parts) ought to be added to ILCA annual subs.  In the EU there are probably laws against making citizens pay for services they aren't able to make use of. 

If that was the case, your club is probably breaching the same law if the membership fees include a component for races a particular member cannot attend or for services (such as a rescue boat or bar) they choose not to use.

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24 minutes ago, drLaser said:

The crucial factor we don't know is the exact wording of the territorial sales agreement between the TM holders.

I doubt very much that the TM Holders agreed not to sell in each other's territories simply "boats with Laser decals". That would have been so stupid. You can just remove the decal! They must have agreed not to sell in each other's territories "boats conforming to the LCMA".

What TM agreement? 

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50 minutes ago, drLaser said:

I doubt very much that the TM Holders agreed not to sell in each other's territories simply "boats with Laser decals". That would have been so stupid. You can just remove the decal! They must have agreed not to sell in each other's territories "boats conforming to the LCMA".

Which agreement are you referring to? 

As you mentioned, the new agreements allow the builders to sell to non-dealer parties outside their territory. In any case, I think PSA are selling the boats to non-dealer customers who are privately importing them (permanently) in to Canada. 

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10 minutes ago, greenwhiteblack said:

Which agreement are you referring to? 

I don't understand why I am insistently getting questions on this.

It has been noted several times by ILCA that the current Builders (the Laser TM Holders) have always had an agreement that precluded them from selling in each other's territories, except to individual sailors or organizations.

Check the historical explanations by Tracy Usher (SFBayLaser) in the thread called "ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder".

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30 minutes ago, greenwhiteblack said:

In any case, I think PSA are selling the boats to non-dealer customers who are privately importing them (permanently) in to Canada. 

The point that I made earlier was that the customers may not have imported these boats. PSA may have exported them before they were even ordered, in which case impropriety may exist, depending on the exact wording of the territorial agreement between the TM Holders.

What I am implying to PSA as "the way out" of this mess is obvious. If there is a mess. Which I don't believe. But one never knows.

Out to sail with my new carbon upper and my new hiking strap arrangement with cleat and shock block. :)

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1 hour ago, drLaser said:

The crucial factor we don't know is the exact wording of the territorial sales agreement between the TM holders.

I doubt very much that the TM Holders agreed not to sell in each other's territories simply "boats with Laser decals". That would have been so stupid. You can just remove the decal! They must have agreed not to sell in each other's territories "boats conforming to the LCMA".

12 minutes ago, drLaser said:

The point that I made earlier was that the customers may not have imported these boats. PSA may have exported them before they were even ordered, in which case impropriety may exist, depending on the exact wording of the territorial agreement between the TM Holders.

Also relevant is the standing within any agreement that each party had at the time decisions were made (which would have been around April 2019).I see a lot of speculation above, however no much mention (and apologies if I missed something) of the significance of the timing - both from a legal perspective and from a practical perspective of making sure that the regatta could take place.

---

So let's take the idea that Mr Rastegar's statements on the Sailing Illustrated interview of the actions of ILCA and PSA as being true (I don't think they are). The consequences are not dire. Canadian law is clear. I have heard nothing to indicate there was any actual legal move by Rastegar in Canada.

Also, it supports collusion between ILCA and PSA only in the sense both colluded to run a successful regatta.

---

There have been no performance differences between LP and PSA boats spoken about that I have heard.

---

Seems to me that the regatta was successful.

---

Also worth noting was just prior to Mr Rastegar was making claims on Sailing Illustrated of having great after sales service, Chris Caldecoat was seen helping 'fix' Laser Performance boats in Kingston - because there was no after sales service by LP in Kingston for their 30 charter boats. You can't pay for that kind of PR - you have to actually do it! (I am wondering if Chris Caldecoat was as a consequence nominated as LP employee of the month.)

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Does anyone know how to purchase one of these PSA boats in Canada?  If the rumored prices are true, they're close to $5K AUD less than local Australian retail, would be worthwhile purchasing one even with the return shipping and Aus import duties/GST

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10 hours ago, drLaser said:

PSA may have exported them before they were even ordered

I agree, and I'm sure they were exported from Australia before being ordered. My point was that, if they are then taken in to Canada under a Carnet import, they are not officially (permanently) imported yet which means they can't be sold. However, if someone then wanted to buy them, they would have to go through the procedure of importing the boats as their personal boat, which I guess would constitute PSA selling the boats to non-commercial customers pre-import of the boats. 

You have to remember that the Carnet documents are supplied by the Australian Government, not the Canadian government, which would further add to PSA's argument that the boats technically weren't fully imported before being sold 

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6 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

LP has nothing to lose in a lawsuit claiming violation of its trademark. 

Time and money for starters.

Then the opportunity cost.

Market share.

---

But you are right to take away rationality from the equation. (If you are)

Genuinely wondering on what basis such an alleged "violation" could even be lodged with any Canadian courts.

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More from Facebook, on The Sailors Voice. (Lutz Hirsch is the boyfriend of ILCA World Council member Alexandra Behrens).

image.png.15b06a292be83d50101bbd02969c40f5.png

My response:

image.png.6885063e89f407aae9f64e5db885f167.png

ILCA link: https://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/08/03/voting-concludes-for-ilca-class-rule-change/ 

World Sailing link: https://www.sailing.org/news/88900.php#.XVBG2egzbIU

Also, I noticed the The Sailor's Voice posting within 15 minutes of it been posted. It had already been liked by Alex.

image.png.bc8e1cc5f02d7f780b7dc0c555a49280.png

 

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@Gouvernail

The copy is great, though did you notice? It is a little slower.

My strong preference is for the original. :) 

(But will get great enjoyment from the copy if the registered owner of the original no longer allows us to play).

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4 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

More from Facebook, on The Sailors Voice. (Lutz Hirsch is the boyfriend of ILCA World Council member Alexandra Behrens).

image.png.15b06a292be83d50101bbd02969c40f5.png

My response:

image.png.6885063e89f407aae9f64e5db885f167.png

ILCA link: https://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/08/03/voting-concludes-for-ilca-class-rule-change/ 

World Sailing link: https://www.sailing.org/news/88900.php#.XVBG2egzbIU

Also, I noticed the The Sailor's Voice posting within 15 minutes of it been posted. It had already been liked by Alex.

image.png.bc8e1cc5f02d7f780b7dc0c555a49280.png

 

I did find it amusing that Lutz feels disrespected by his Mrs :p

Deliberate shitstirring post is not surprising though

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22 minutes ago, JMP said:

I did find it amusing that Lutz feels disrespected by his Mrs :p

A point that I can't really get my head around.

The idea is that Alex or Jean-Luc (or Heini) aren't part of the ILCA World Council seems to get lost in the noise.

Though I do wonder if their wish to be not part of the ILCA World Council will be realized soon enough.

---

Its no secret that I tried hard to get people in Europe to vote yes.

One thing that really surprised me was that the majority already were aligned with voting yes. There was a small number that I was able to influence, and a tiny group who were going to vote no (or already had). The rough figures I kept showed a strong bias to a yes being returned (78%), however were not scientific, so I think of them as unreliable.

I'm wondering when the elections for EurILCA and the German Laser Association chair will be held.

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Did all regions of the world cooperate with ILCA and verify the votes from their sailors?

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3 hours ago, Otterbox said:

Did all regions of the world cooperate with ILCA and verify the votes from their sailors?

My understanding is that the verification process is at the district (country) level, and that for the vast majority (all?) went without any issues at all.

As of Friday (US time), there were a couple of countries that had yet to verify (I've been asked for results quite a few times) and my expectation is that the release will go out immediately once the verification process is complete. I'm unclear what possible reasons are causing the delays, and have no information that there are any political, technical or other reasons which are causing the delays. One would presume that even with a couple of districts missing, there would be a point of mathematical certainty of a specific result.

Once the verification process is complete, my guess is that there are some formal steps to be taken, that will result in the announcement from World Sailing about the 2024 Olympics.

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Have some time to read... and post trivial stuff: Absolut'ly, positively Laser!

(Source: drLaser.org website, "Laser Artistry" section, circa 2000.)

AbsolutLaser1.jpg

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Alexandra Behrens makes her first statement under her own name on The Sailors Voice.
image.png.74d5151b0f18c06b9efa47eebb7b879d.png

----

The following is the entire thread of comments, copies here, so there is a public record (as people can delete and alter their posts).

This is so we can see what Alex is agreeing with Pete Conway about, in its full context. 

image.png.5eef9f6d497585e5c69e9c47051930be.png

image.png.92d7763f31615c69ff6faafcfdb8c2ce.png

image.png.b1c4e4042c758da2527b09590cee594b.png

image.png.4d0ce72240f5dcee883c01db9f3c2d0e.png

image.png.216a27c05b243f1f095bc57d14248068.png

image.png.69c084d05deabe2c0431b40d1f8a83d4.png

---

Pete Conway's edit:
image.png.1f5e70987037b0a73bca5a5af927b721.png
---

Note that anyone blocking me would not show up above. (For example Aero sailor Derek Stow, also active on The Sailors Voice.)

Postscript: I have just checked, there are no other comments made.

 

 

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ILCA Class Rule Change Approved by Members

The proposed change to the ILCA Class Rules to modify the definition of a builder has been approved by more than two-thirds of the members responding to the published ballot.  Voting concluded on 31 July and, as with all rule change votes, the ballots were then verified with the ILCA District associations to confirm whether each voter is a current member of the class.

Although the verification process is ongoing, with a few districts yet to confirm their voting members, enough ballots have been verified to determine with mathematical certainty the result of the vote – that the two-thirds majority required to amend the class rules has been exceeded and the rule change proposal has been approved.

Of the currently confirmed votes, the result is 81% YES, 19% NO. Based on the ballots remaining to be confirmed, it is expected that the final result will be approximately 79% YES, 21% NO.

Based on these results, ILCA has submitted the rule change proposal to World Sailing as required under World Sailing Regulation 10, and the change will go into immediate effect after World Sailing confirmation is received.

ILCA will continue to work with the member Districts to verify the remaining ballots to obtain the final voting results and ILCA will then engage an independent audit to certify the results.

ILCA would like to thank all the members who participated in the rule change voting process and the member districts for their timely verification of the ballots.

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/08/12/ilca-class-rule-change-approved-by-members/

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In a bold and revolutionary move Laser sailors have voted for the freedom to sail boats not called Lasers...  as long as they really are Lasers.

The whole sailing world is now holding its breath as they wonder whether sailing can survive such a drastic change.
 

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You realize what a conversation killer you were here, right? :)

 

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On 8/3/2019 at 1:34 PM, aroy210677 said:

There were 13,029 members at the end of 2018, 4% growth over year previous.

What would it take to double ILCA members by the 2024 Olympics?

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7 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

What would it take to double ILCA members by the 2024 Olympics?

13,029 more members...

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16 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

What would it take to double ILCA members by the 2024 Olympics?

Kick them all in the nuts (if equipped)

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Currently the class is actually three classes: the Standard, Radial and 4.7.

The C5 seems to be under a lot of discussion. (But there is also the bigger carbon rigs C6, C7 and there could even be a C8).

Here's some more testing in San Francisco within the last week:

---

The expansion of the class may be via the introduction of another sail design - which won't necessarily have the same boat speed as the existing boats. 

---

What is interesting to me is that a slower sail plan (the Radial) has become very popular - and may be a big part of the 4% ILCA membership growth in 2018. 

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2 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The Dooseythinghy Dinghy  hull and deck could be built at around 80 pounds (40 kilos )  if the sole intention is to create a “just like a Laser only faster.”

The simply HUGE difference is the Laser was originally an inexpensive toy everybody could afford. 

Great to know. Please send through the costs you are basing your statement on.

3 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The ILCA has for fifty years published endless materials where Changing the Laser  is clearly described as cheating or worse. 

Was the Radial in your mind "cheating"? How about the 4.7?

4 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The game is in fine shape despite all the bullshit with LP. 

Agreed. I wonder if we will ever find out why Rastegar initiated the BS.

5 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

I thought the big vote was to allow new suppliers of generic Lasers.  We haven’t even seen the first Dooseythinghy Dinghies at the dealerships and it appears ILCA is abandoning its mission to serve the Laser “now with generics” game. 

The rule change is 100% clear. 

The new rule needs to be approved by World Sailing - because since the 1970s ILCA agreed that to be the case.

New builders will be appointed, but not before the rule is approved. This takes time - and World Sailing marches to the beat of its own drum, not yours.

I'm amazed that anyone can rationally say that ILCA is abandoning anything.

---

Where are you going with this Gouv?

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8 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

rational people want someone else to be in charge. 

 

That is the most intelligent thing I have ever heard on a Laser thread... heck on this site!  LOL, my Laser and UFO both sat untouched on the beach last night while I borrowed an old Laser Pico we used to own the our kids learned to sail in and used that to take two young boys out sailing around the river.  Had a blast and the smile on their faces when they were driving and it got up on plane was better than anything else I could have done last night.

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Gouv, we agree far more than not. Mostly about getting more people to go sailing.

1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

I believe the piss poor communication  between virtually all Laser game  officials and Rastagar will eventually be understood as the cause of EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM currently staggering the Laser sailing game. 

I hear you, and don't share that belief. There is a body of communication between Farzad Rastegar and ILCA, including face to face meetings, emails, phone calls and WhatsApp messages / texts.

An example of that is where Mr Rastegar clearly communicated the threat of legal action if ILCA used the Laser trademark without signing a new agreement. The communication wasn't a problem - what was communicated was.

---

1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

The fact none  of the writers in these forums or anyone involved fully understands how we got here means, anyone who is assigning  blame needs to look in a mirror. 

Agreed. 

Here's the rub. 

Those who promote doing nothing are part of the problem. That includes standing by when obvious misinformation is being promoted.

Here's one of may examples of blame and misinformation, posted 27 June by Laser Performance:


Laser Performance Eric Faust EurILCA Masters meeting

I believe that the above meeting was the turning point, and Eric facing Jean-Luc, Lutz, Alex, John Emmett and others was great. It allowed most to understand the attacks that ILCA was facing, and the BS being thrown at ILCA.

---

1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

rational people want someone else to be in charge. 

We (ILCA members) are already in charge via a representative democracy. All the big decisions are voted on by the World Council. I think that there are better ways to run organizations - with systems which are more democratic. (Same with United States).

If you want that to change, then that solution will not be found on the race course.

Governance is important.

---

PS: The way Mr Rastegar spells his surname in his own emails is "Rastegar".

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

If you are asking why his company has had great difficulty serving the American Laser game, I believe the answer has to do with a lack of understanding of the needs of the game and how serving those needs might generate profit for his business.

Agree. Boatbuilding is no business for business outsiders. I've once said here these are the wrong guys to run this company. Not cause FR is a bad guy, or a bad businessman. But because it's difficult to understand how this complex market works. It must look to be such an unbelieveble great business on first sight. Thousends of voluteers worldwide promoting your product, you've got a monopoly and instead you have to pay them, they work for you and pay you by constantly buying your product. Even the IOC is promoting your product without charging money. But then you find out, that these volunteers want to tell you how to run your business in exchange of their work. And  that's a no go. You, as company owner believe these guys just can't understand your business. These sailers believe that you don't understand your business. There is just no base for communication, just doesn't work. 

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6 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

The expansion of the class may be via . . .

If that's the question of the day... then I would like to assume that "expansion of the class" means more dues-paying ILCA members. "More butts on boats" increases the size of the pool from which 99% of the members originate, but does not necessarily translate into more members.

The number of ILCA members will increase if you can convince non-members that there is value in becoming a member. And the path to that is first by creatively providing valuable services exclusively for ILCA members. In my (Philadelphia) fleet of 14 Laser sailors, only 3 sailors were ILCA members. So, we could potentially increase the number of ILCA members more than four-fold by convincing the others to join, too. In my neighboring club's fleet in Istanbul, out of the 47 Laser racers, only 1 sailor believes he is an ILCA member. Similar ratios hold for many fleets around the world.

Secondly, some Laser sailors do not even have an option of becoming a member since their governing authority finds insufficient value in ensuring all Laser sailors become class members. Such is the case in all "green countries" and even some of the "blue" countries. This needs to be prevented.

To address this second problem, those governing authorities (federations, sailing associations or even local Laser associations) must be convinced that having (larger) District Laser Associations is something that is beneficial. This is not being achieved, either because of the aforementioned general lack of members-only services, or because

(i) some membership benefits (e.g., sanctioning events, allowing participation in sanctioned racing) are offered by ILCA even to non-members, or

(ii) the governing authority's decision to pay ILCA membership dues for only a proportion of their Laser sailors is not challenged by ILCA.

Third, I also happen to believe that most of the immediate membership expansion will come either from developing nations (e.g., China) or developed nations with highly independent, free-thinking and non-institutional sailors who decide on joining the class (or not) individually. 

I believe design improvements (rigs and sails and foils) are secondary to all of these institutional , structural factors.

 

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Count me as one who believes putting a new expensive  rig on a flexible heavy yet flimsy hull is due right absurd. 

My first thought is to agree. But on reflection there are a number of classes which successfully introduced a more modern rig onto an already outdated hull. The Star is an example. 

If a more modern rig could be developed for the Laser that didn't involve sail and spar destroying vang loads, and rake critical block to block sheeting, might that be a good thing in the medium term?

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16 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

Agree. Boatbuilding is no business for business outsiders. I've once said here these are the wrong guys to run this company. Not cause FR is a bad guy, or a bad businessman. But because it's difficult to understand how this complex market works. It must look to be such an unbelieveble great business on first sight. Thousends of voluteers worldwide promoting your product, you've got a monopoly and instead you have to pay them, they work for you and pay you by constantly buying your product. Even the IOC is promoting your product without charging money. But then you find out, that these volunteers want to tell you how to run your business in exchange of their work. And  that's a no go. You, as company owner believe these guys just can't understand your business. These sailers believe that you don't understand your business. There is just no base for communication, just doesn't work. 

I have taken the time to research Rastegar, read about the history of Maclaren. I have spoken to current and ex employees of Laser Performance and Maclaren. Those who I have spoken with have found dealing with Rastegar in a work environment to be challenging. Further, I have worked in the marine sector, and have a pretty good understanding of marketing and documentation (Not just ISO).

I don't understand why Laser Performance stopped paying Kirby - Laser Performance stopped payments prior to finding out that Kirby had attempted selling BKI to Global Sailing. I am left questioning Rastegar's business tactics and morals. Laser Performance has unusual business practices, and their media releases have been accusational and challenging.

---

Rastegar was challenged with his communication and business with Maclaren.

At the core - and beyond the issues most publicized (about severed fingers), Maclaren ended up owing the buggy designer David Netto about US $1 million.

This statement was made:

Quote

 

I don't know the relevant law, but it seems extraordinary to me that the company could shift its US business operations around for a year or more, starve itself of revenue, and load itself up with debt--mostly to itself--solely as a way of dodging accountability to a small but growing population of nine-fingered toddlers and their parents. And yet that seems to be happening right in front of us. Stay tuned.

 

---

I would not rate Farzad Rastegar as a good businessman, nor a good communicator.

---

Farzad Rastegar has been associated with Laser Performance since 1998.

PSA has successfully operated within a similar structure. ILCA have not told Rastegar or any of the boat builders how to run their business.

Rastegar / Laser Performance have made 'strong suggestions' (some in writing) about how ILCA should be run. It is my view that these statements, and other actions taken by Rastegar, constitute an attack on ILCA.

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1 minute ago, JimC said:

If a more modern rig could be developed for the Laser that didn't involve sail and spar destroying vang loads, and rake critical block to block sheeting, might that be a good thing in the medium term?

Agreed.

Then the question becomes how to introduce it, in a way that is least disruptive.

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3 hours ago, JimC said:

If a more modern rig could be developed for the Laser that didn't involve sail and spar destroying vang loads, and rake critical block to block sheeting, might that be a good thing in the medium term?

...and then in the long term, we could put a more modern hull under the new rigs...

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3 hours ago, OneGoat said:

...and then in the long term, we could put a more modern hull under the new rigs...

Agreed. But that is in the distant future, so first steps first.

WS need to approve the rule change before the next steps can be taken.

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7 hours ago, drLaser said:

The number of ILCA members will increase if you can convince non-members that there is value in becoming a member. And the path to that is first by creatively providing valuable services exclusively for ILCA members. In my (Philadelphia) fleet of 14 Laser sailors, only 3 sailors were ILCA members. So, we could potentially increase the number of ILCA members more than four-fold by convincing the others to join, too. In my neighboring club's fleet in Istanbul, out of the 47 Laser racers, only 1 sailor believes he is an ILCA member. Similar ratios hold for many fleets around the world.

So to state the obvious, ILCA membership can be increased the following ways:

  • Existing sailors join ILCA (This is about the value proposition of membership)
  • New sailors (Butts on boats in the Standard, Radial and 4.7)
  • Clubs, coaches and sailing schools
  • New boats (like the Radial was, for the distant future).

There also can be initiatives at the country level.

Context is important.

---

Value proposition of ILCA membership

The starting point is the "why join" information with existing associations. UKLA:

Quote

Benefits of Class membership

So, buying a Laser may be the smart move sailing-wise but why bother with joining the Association? For someone wanting to race at Open Meetings, Grand Prix events, World & European Qualifier events, Master's events and Championships, membership is required in order to take part. This is the same as all other Class Associations. For the non-racer there are numerous discounts offered from Laser Performance for members only and, not least , the 10% from Noble Insurance for your boat insurance.

The class publish four coloured magazines a year called Gybe with lots of photographs, articles and tips. There is also Laser World the magazine of our International office which can be viewed on line. Each new member receives a training video produced by our Training Officer, Jon Emmett, who has had many successes with his sailors, not least with Lijia Xu, from China, who won gold at the London Olympics.

(Appreciate the inside humor there!)

North America:

Quote

Why join the Laser Class Association?
What are some of the benefits of a strong class association?

  • A strong class association means lots of boats to race against, near you and around the world!
  • A strong class association with lots of racing attracts the world's best sailors - giving you the best racing possible!
  • A strong class association means major events scheduled at the best sailing locations and moving all over the North American Region - there will always be a big event near you!
  • A strong class association means solid class rules making all boats as identical as possible - you are competing against other sailors, not their pocket books!
  • A strong class association means lots of people looking to buy boats keeping the resale value of your boat high.
  • A strong class association keeps an eye towards the future and works with the builders to make improvements where needed while preserving as well as possible the competitiveness of older boats.

To be strong, a class association needs the support of its sailors!
Join the North American Laser Class Association now!
What are some of the direct benefits of membership?

  • You receive the annual Laser Class Handbook with the current class rules, interpretations of those rules, class constitution, guidelines for events, useful information for keeping your boat in good shape, contact information for your district, etc.
  • You receive the International Class Association's quarterly publication "Laser World" which gives a roundup of international events sailed around the world, as well as information from the international office.
  • You receive the North American Association's quarterly publication "The Laser Sailor" which is loaded with regatta reports, technique articles, fitness and nutrition tips, sailor profiles, reports from each of the North American Region's 26 Districts and much, much more. In addition, the magazine also contains advertising from Laser dealers selling Laser specific gear and aimed entirely at Laser sailors - if you are looking for something for your boat you will see it advertised here!
  • You will have access to the class website at www.laser.org containing all the latest news as well as the up to date calendar of events, complete with maps to show you how to find the events. And you can also find archived copies of The Laser Sailor as well as useful articles on how to sail your boat faster.
  • Your membership makes you eligible to sail in any of the 50+ major Laser Class regattas scheduled every year throughout the North American Region, including open, masters', youth and women's events.
  • Your membership makes you eligible for the ILCA-NA Grand Prix where you earn points when sailing in major events, ranking you against your fellow competitors and making you eligible for end of the season prizes, like new sails, carbon tillers, etc.

You get direct benefit by joining the Laser Class!
Join the North American Laser Class Association now!
What does the class association do with your membership dues?

  • The first $15.00 of your membership dues go to pay the North American staff who work incredibly hard to make sure our North American events get scheduled every year and that these events follow the high standards of the Laser Class, to publish our quarterly newsletter, etc. Importantly, that money also makes sure that if you ever have a question you can simply pick up the phone, or send an email, and a knowledgeable person will answer you right away.
  • Depending on exchange rates, the next $10.00 of your dues goes to the International Class where they use the money to pay their staff to make sure world level events get scheduled, ensuring all the boats are the same by inspecting the builders to make sure they are complying with the Laser Construction Manual, keep track of rules changes proposed by members, interfacing with ISAF on various levels, including keeping both the Laser Standard and Laser Radial as Olympic equipment, etc.
  • A little over $10.00 goes to the quarterly assembling, printing and mailing of The Laser Sailor to you for the year.
  • Around $8.00 goes to support and promotion, ranging from direct support of the districts and regattas to the website.
  • Most of the remaining dues goes to all the things it takes to running an organization of 2000 members.
  • Your membership dues are used to keep the Laser Standard, Laser Radial and Laser 4.7 as THE singlehanded dinghy to sail and race in North America and throughout the world!

Why should you join the Laser Class? 

  • To enable the Laser Class to remain a strong class association and continue to make the Laser the preeminent singlehanded dinghy of our time.
  • To gain the benefits of membership outlined above.
  • To protect your investment in your boat, making sure that if the time comes to sell then you can be certain that the high demand driven by a strong class will enable you to get the best price for your boat.

The International Laser Class Association, North American Region is what it is today because of the support of its members. Keep that tradition alive, join or renew your membership TODAY!

Australia has no "why join" information (At least I couldn't find any).  Other national associations had "why join" information.

---

In pursuit of excellence with membership, steps can include:

  • updating existing information
  • membership officers talking to each other in order to form 'best practice'
  • ILCA to review membership 'infrastructure' including procedures. How membership in each country works is important. (Some countries don't have a proper association)
  • suggestion and evaluation of new ideas via forums like here plus 'think tanks'.

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ILCA have an excellent page on how to join. There are contact details for each district.

However, when you go to each district, it is a little 'hit and miss'. For example, the website for the Cook Island is about sailing - but at first look, I couldn't see anything to do with sailing Lasers. Mexico was not under "North America", rather under "Rest of the World". Clicking on the link took you to the Mexican Laser Association website, which has the Mexican Sailing Circuit - all good until you realize it is for 2013! (Why isn't Mexico part of the ILCA-NA region?!)

What may help is a ILCA World Council subcommittee tasked with reviewing each country.

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