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Lucky Dog

Volvo 2030 starting question

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I have a problem starting my diesel.   Mechanic seems to want to go the part replacing route and I am in 1200 dollars with no end in site

engine if it will start takes a really long time cranking.  Once it starts it work fine.   If I turn it off and Re-start within 4 hrs it starts right back up.  If I leave it overnight need starting fluid the get going.

so it seems it’s loosing fuel pressure? 

Note it had water in fuel a while ago not sure if related.

once engine starts I have ran it for 12 hrs - it drives the boat just fine  

mechanic wants to rebuild injectors if that does not work then injector pump.  Seems like a expensive way to go. Guessing.  

Your thoughts?   And yes I am not going to use that mechanic any more

Tom 

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sounds like guess work, finding out why it doesnt start is the first job

I would put a separate fuel tank with return above your injection pump level and see if it restarts next day having run that

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Thought this was about the Volvo RTW race start in 2030.  Does sound like fuel problem; crud plugging or something messing up the injectors. It would help to know what the $1200 went for. 

 

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I'm no expert but if it runs fine, starts when warm and is just hard-starting when cold that doesn't sound like fuel pressure (injectors or pump or fouling) to me. So I kind of agree, that mechanic was just easter-egging.

What's the pre-heat situation on a 2030? Does it have glow plugs? My MD2B does not and one tip my mechanic gave me is to blow hot air into the air intake with a heat gun for a minute or so, that helps it to start. He recommended installing a little 12v heating element in the intake so you don't have to break out the heat gun every time. I've heard that starting fluid is really bad for diesels and should be avoided.

If it does have glow plugs, have you checked to make sure they glow? That should be a cheap and easy replacement so worth checking.

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No, that doesn't sound fuel related. If it runs fine then fuel system is likely fine.

It's compression. If it sits for a few hours the oil film on the piston rings slowly seeps away. The reason it takes time to start is the excess fuel is helping seal the rings or oil mist from crankcase is helping to seal rings.

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8 minutes ago, Zonker said:

No, that doesn't sound fuel related. If it runs fine then fuel system is likely fine.

It's compression. If it sits for a few hours the oil film on the piston rings slowly seeps away. The reason it takes time to start is the excess fuel is helping seal the rings or oil mist from crankcase is helping to seal rings.

Well, that's a harsh jolt of reality. I was crossing fingers on some sort of glowplug wiring issue.

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13 hours ago, Sailabout said:

sounds like guess work, finding out why it doesnt start is the first job

I would put a separate fuel tank with return above your injection pump level and see if it restarts next day having run that

I’m thinking this is a common issue. In fifteen years the Kubota diesel in my tractor has fired on the first turn or two. Even after running dry or sitting for months. Tank is directly above engine. Bubbles rise.  Similar Kubota in boat...not so much. Especially when tank level is low. Tank is abreast engine. Have the tiny engine driven lift pump but I don’t think it is really up to the task. It is driven by the camshaft, right? So two slow turns of the engine pumps a few drops, right? All the hose routing is proper.

An interesting test for you would be to route both fuel lines to a can of diesel above the engine...direct...without the dips and humps thru the bilges. See how it likes that. An electric boost pump could be a good addition. Need not run all the time.

 

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First - give your mechanic a kicking. $1200 with no result is taking the piss

Second - there is some more investigation to be done.

I assume that you have replaced fuel filters a few times, and there isn't a big build up of bacteria from the water in the fuel?

Then;

  • Compression test / leak down test each cylinder.
  • Check glow plugs are working OK (I assume you remember to glow the engine for 15 secs before starting?)
  • plumb in a temporary fuel pressure guage -even better, one in the supply line and one for the high pressure rail
  • Remove injectors and test flow rates

Based on your description, I'd first hope it is a simple wiring issue with the glow plugs. Next I'd suspect compression, perhaps you got some rust in the bores which has worn the bore / ring interface? And if it wasn't either of those, I'd go looking for a vacuum / pressure leak in a hose which gets sealed up due to heat expansion... that would be a prick to find!

We had 2000 hours on our 2030 when we sold the boat. I was a fan of that engine.

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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

No, that doesn't sound fuel related. If it runs fine then fuel system is likely fine.

It's compression. If it sits for a few hours the oil film on the piston rings slowly seeps away. The reason it takes time to start is the excess fuel is helping seal the rings or oil mist from crankcase is helping to seal rings.

I agree with the logic here - but I'd expect that you'd also notice the engine was burning some oil if this were the case.

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Thanks for the replies 

engine after running hard for 12 hrs straight will have consumed 1/3 to 1/2 of a quart of of oil

Regarding starting - it takes 2 or 3 min to get it started if I can get it started but fires in seconds with starting fluid rag near intake 

1200 was to change filters and pump out tank as they found some water in tank. Not enough to make a difference I was told. As filter had separated fuel from water.   Could  water have damaged something in fuel system?

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Water can damage the tips of injector nozzles (the water turns to steam when injected and blows the tips off) - but if you have a decent filter, that is not very likely.

How many hours on the engine?

What is "run it hard"? What RPM (and what is engine redline)?

 (diesel engines run for long periods of time at low RPM will polish the cylinder walls and thus piston rings don't seal as well)

That's a fair bit of oil consumed which does suggest lack of sealing by the piston rings.

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Zonker sounds like he knows what he is talking about. Unfortunately I'd second his guess. Compression test should be next step.

FWIW I didn't use to see any oil consumed after 100 hours use.

I'd describe 'run hard' for this engine to be above 2800 RPM. In normal use we'd vary between 2300 and 2700, just because it feels wrong to me to run an engine at the exact same revs for hours at a time. (And above 2700 rpm we seemed to just burn more fuel and only go slightly faster).

I think redline was 3200 rpm, or maybe that was the max mine would run at with the prop I had. Only went there once or twice against current.

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I have two 2030, and I would first have a look at the glow plugs from what you describe in your OP. And FIRE that mech  

GPs for the 2030 are available at NAPA for less than $10 each. Your reference is NGK 6628 Y-107V

If you had a fueling  issue the engines would not run once started and would be difficult to restart even after warmed. Almost certainly glow plugs. 

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8 minutes ago, Max Rockatansky said:

I have two 2030, and I would first have a look at the glow plugs from what you describe in your OP. And FIRE that mech  

GPs for the 2030 are available at NAPA for less than $10 each. Your reference is NGK 6628 Y-107V

If you had a fueling  issue the engines would not run once started and would be difficult to restart even after warmed. Almost certainly glow plugs. 

depending on how the fuel system works, they can self bleed 99% so its hard to start when left sitting.

High tank test eliminates that issue

Seen it before with those little engines.

Clearly glow plugs would be first thing to check

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I always begin with simple and move to complex.

for the OP: the 2030 is the same as the Perkins Perama M30, which is a Japanese tractor engine. I don’t have it on me, but somewhere in Googleland is an informative description of the history of these engines with info on cross referencing parts. 

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Given the symptoms described and how easy it is to check glow plugs & compression it's suprising the mechanic didn't start there but went immediately to fuel. It just doesn't sound like fuel problem at all.

Does the engine smoke at all when it's warmed up and under steady load? If I recall correctly poor compression = white smoke & burning oil = blue smoke. If little or no smoke I'd cast another vote for glow plugs.

BTW the hot air trick should work if glow plugs are bad, so another cheap and easy way for you to troubleshoot.

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Maybe bad glow plugs produce "starts easily if re-started after a few hours" (i.e. still warm block?)

But the excess oil consumption supports poor compression/lack of ring sealing. Could be a bit of both I suppose. Unless it's burning a LOT of oil, you won't see blue smoke. 1/3 L over 12 hours = diddly/squat.

Certainly check the glow plugs. Simple to do. How to:  

attachment.php?attachmentid=22620&d=1294

Oh I agree mechanic is a wanker - but good to check fuel first because it's probably 80% of diesel problems. But not $1200 worth of checking.

 

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Thanks again for the answers - next on the list -

glow plugs.  thanks for diagram :)

Then injectors check/rebuild.  I am guessing they are Bosh as that is what my older Volvo had on it.

 

 

Running hard was 2900 rpm to 3000 rpm in waves.  The Oil consumption does bother me a little - Frankly I am used to it as all of my diesel engines have burned a little oil as all of my boats have been used.

Smoke out of exhaust is white at start up (cold) then none.  its really a puff then gone.

I will check glow plugs later this week.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Zonker said:

No, that doesn't sound fuel related. If it runs fine then fuel system is likely fine.

It's compression. If it sits for a few hours the oil film on the piston rings slowly seeps away. The reason it takes time to start is the excess fuel is helping seal the rings or oil mist from crankcase is helping to seal rings.

Welllll..... I'm certainly not saying it's the most likely...

BEFORE you went Zonker's route of even a compression check, I would really pay close attention to your whole supply side of the fuel system. What are you describing I have seen simply from pinhole leaks (again, on the suction side so you may not see any drips) that allow the fuel to slowly drain back into the tank, say overnight. Starting it up shortly after running- the engine still has it's prime... but given enough time the lines are now empty... regardless, I don't see the merit in STARTING with injectors...

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When you're checking the glow plugs make sure you also check the wiring - if it's plugs it sounds like none of them are working (otherwise seems like it would fire up cold on one or two cylinders) so it may be common wiring or switch that's causing all of them not to glow even if the plugs themselves are fine.

Regarding the oil, are you sure it's all burning and not dripping somewhere?

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1 hour ago, suider said:

 

Welllll..... I'm certainly not saying it's the most likely...

BEFORE you went Zonker's route of even a compression check, I would really pay close attention to your whole supply side of the fuel system. What are you describing I have seen simply from pinhole leaks (again, on the suction side so you may not see any drips) that allow the fuel to slowly drain back into the tank, say overnight. Starting it up shortly after running- the engine still has it's prime... but given enough time the lines are now empty... regardless, I don't see the merit in STARTING with injectors...

thanks for the feedback -  Not sure how I would look for Pinhole leaks -  any suggestions on the how would be greatly appreciated. 

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1 hour ago, TJSoCal said:

When you're checking the glow plugs make sure you also check the wiring - if it's plugs it sounds like none of them are working (otherwise seems like it would fire up cold on one or two cylinders) so it may be common wiring or switch that's causing all of them not to glow even if the plugs themselves are fine.

Regarding the oil, are you sure it's all burning and not dripping somewhere?

engine looks clean no oil leaks that I see.  I will double check to be sure - I keep one of those oil soak up pads under engine will see if its got oil in it.

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I have MD2020, which is just a smaller version of MD2030. Starts without glowing after a few hours stoppage, but needs 10 s glowing after a longer pause.

You should be able to notice that glowing takes quite a lot of current. I find it very unlikw that all three glow plugs would fail at the same time, but glow switch or wiring could fail.

Small air leak could be the cause. A bit loose hose clamp can make starting difficult or impossible, but cause no problems when the engine is running. Just go through all the fuel connections and filters. 

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7 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

I have two 2030,

GPs for the 2030 are available at NAPA for less than $10 each. Your reference is NGK 6628 Y-107V

I’ll repeat. 

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I have a MD2030D that wouldn't start due to bad glow plugs. They probably didn't fail all at once but over time went out one by one. The easiest test is to put a clamp-on amp meter on the wire that feeds all 3 plugs. I think they pull 15 amps or so.

If that's your issue (and I hope it is as it's an easy fix) then be aware that the #1 glow plug is blocked from removal by the fuel delivery pipes. Plan to replace just two. :D

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18 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

I’ll repeat. 

Thanks going down to boat tonight to test glow plugs

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On 7/30/2019 at 9:24 AM, Zonker said:

Maybe bad glow plugs produce "starts easily if re-started after a few hours" (i.e. still warm block?)

But the excess oil consumption supports poor compression/lack of ring sealing. Could be a bit of both I suppose. Unless it's burning a LOT of oil, you won't see blue smoke. 1/3 L over 12 hours = diddly/squat.

Certainly check the glow plugs. Simple to do. How to:  

attachment.php?attachmentid=22620&d=1294

Oh I agree mechanic is a wanker - but good to check fuel first because it's probably 80% of diesel problems. But not $1200 worth of checking.

 

Had a Perkins 4-108 that wouldn’t restart after bleeding without a 10 second pre-heat, even though the engine was still hot. Agree that glow plug system could be the problem.

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It's pretty easy to check for bad blow by, just open your oil fill on the valve cover with a rag over and it will be pretty obvious. If your cylinders are glazed there isn't a easy fix.  However if you are only day sailing and can live with the extra oil consumption you can prolong it by ensuring the glow plugs are all good as above also invest in a hotstart block heater. These are only patches.  The oil consumption is kind of a 100% thing, unless it's going in the bilge from leaks you are burning it, and that means a bottom end.

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It's more often a glow plug relay problem than a glow plug problem. Or wiring from the key switch to the relay.

 

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listen to hear the relay pull in when you hold the glow plug button down. 

if you have an electric fuel pump, Listen to hear if running, that would supply your injector pump 

make sure you are not in gear... that's going to slow the starter down 

 

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You might need something called "Caterpillar Part No.7F5225 Break-in Powder". It was a fine abrasive (some say it was "Bon-Ami" scouring powder) used to help re-seat rings after a rebuild.

It's probably not a good idea on an older engine though.

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Ok I got down to boat and pulled off glow plug rail (pain in the ass) and measured resistance of each.  They all were 1.0 ohms.

I then tried to measure the voltage  feeding the glow plugs - removed the red wire feeding the glow plug rail.  I put the + on red lead and neg on battery neg - had my daughter press the glow plug switch and  I measured 0.9 volts.     

Is this correct? 

I am unsure how to verify if the circuit feeding glow plugs is working so your advice would be greatly helpful.

Thanks again for your help.

Tom

 

 

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4 hours ago, Moonduster said:

It's more often a glow plug relay problem than a glow plug problem. Or wiring from the key switch to the relay.

 

I am wondering the same thing now - I need to start tracing wires back to panel.  Any tips?

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1 hour ago, Lucky Dog said:

Ok I got down to boat and pulled off glow plug rail (pain in the ass) and measured resistance of each.  They all were 1.0 ohms.

I then tried to measure the voltage  feeding the glow plugs - removed the red wire feeding the glow plug rail.  I put the + on red lead and neg on battery neg - had my daughter press the glow plug switch and  I measured 0.9 volts.     

Is this correct? 

I am unsure how to verify if the circuit feeding glow plugs is working so your advice would be greatly helpful.

Thanks again for your help.

Tom

 

 

That seems bad. Seems to be a connection, but a bad one. Should measure with the glow plug load attached. Typically the poor connection will get warm, which can be a good way to search. Might be the relay. Usually nearby. Terminals should be around 12V when switch is pressed (except common terminal, if present).

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Pretty sure ~1 ohm is a good glow plug, but voltage to the plug should be 12v. So I agree your problem is probably with switch or relay. 

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Can you hear the relay switching? There are two identical relays in the relay box. One for stater motor and one for glow plugs. You can switch those to verify is the problem with the relay or something else.

You can find a workshop manual with wiring diagram for MD2030 in the net. The relay just connects battery positive to the feed rail so you should have gotten 12 V.

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 When voltage testing a unloaded circuts you should be reading the same as your panel around 12-13 volts. As above you have a definite control issue relay etc.  Any auto store Napa etc should have a suitable replacement. A glow plug is essentially a heating element and a resistance measurement is iffy at best.  1 ohm is pretty much no resistance, infinity or open would be a definite bad plug. 

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Once you find the relay, it's probably a black plastic square.  It will have four connections and the terminal will most likely be numbered. Two of the connections will be the coil in the relay.  A neg which will most likely be jumpered to other neg connections, a positive coming from the push button or key switch for heat.  There may be three other terminals depending on the relay.  A common which will be positive from the battery or if fused the glowplug fuse terminal.  A NC normally closed, which should be open, and a NO normally open which should go to the glow plugs.  As long as the wattage rating is the same or higher and the coil is 12v any similar relay will work.  

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On 7/30/2019 at 10:26 PM, longhorn said:

the #1 glow plug is blocked from removal by the fuel delivery pipes. Plan to replace just two. :D

It’s really not that hard to take the plumbing off the high pressure pump, there then is enough slack to move it out the way

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18 hours ago, Lucky Dog said:

Ok I got down to boat and pulled off glow plug rail (pain in the ass) and measured resistance of each.  They all were 1.0 ohms.

I then tried to measure the voltage  feeding the glow plugs - removed the red wire feeding the glow plug rail.  I put the + on red lead and neg on battery neg - had my daughter press the glow plug switch and  I measured 0.9 volts.     

Is this correct? 

I am unsure how to verify if the circuit feeding glow plugs is working so your advice would be greatly helpful.

Thanks again for your help.

Tom

 

 

If you have the GP disconnected from the circuit, and you measure the voltage from the GP wire positive to battery ground, when the GP switch is depressed, you should see battery voltage, ergo +/- 12V

If you do the same test with the GP connected, you should see a significant voltage drop, ca. 11V, as the GP are heating 

Since you have no voltage during the test, try swapping the relays that are in the black box on the side of the engine, and then test the voltage again

Also check the fuse that is on the side of the small black box 

If you’re still getting no voltage, check your battery connections and switches

It kinda sounds like it’s one of the relays in the box

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You might start at the instrument panel and make sure you've got 12v coming into the switch and 12v coming out of the switch when closed (if the glow plug light comes on you probably do).

If that checks out then see if you've got 12v going into the relay. I think you've already verified theres no voltage coming out of the relay to the plugs. No voltage going into the relay would indicate bad wiring from the switch, voltage in but not out = bad relay.

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19 hours ago, Lucky Dog said:

I then tried to measure the voltage  feeding the glow plugs - removed the red wire feeding the glow plug rail.  I put the + on red lead and neg on battery neg - had my daughter press the glow plug switch and  I measured 0.9 volts.     

Is this correct? 

0.9V is not correct.  You were measuring on the red lead of the plug itself?  Try the other lead too.  The higher voltage is the correct one, and should be near 12V like others have said.  It should be the red lead that is higher, but the electrons don't care what color the wire is.  Somewhat poor connections/wiring could give you 0.9 V on the other plug lead, due to resistance on the return leg to the battery.

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Thanks for the reply’s. I am going down to boat tonight and tomorrow and go thru circuit from panel to glow plugs.  Will post my results once that is done

Thanks again

Tom

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Hello and I would like to thank all of you who provided advice.

The issue was with the relay to the glow plug.  I was not getting voltage to the glow plugs.  Once I swapped the starter relay I got voltage (10 volts) to glow plugs.  So I heated up for 20 seconds - swapped relay back to starter side and engine fired right up.

Funny thing once i reseated orginal relay and retested later it was working.  I am going to get new ones and replace.

I will never use this professional mechanic again.  He was going to replace glow plugs then high pressure pump as he was convinced i had some kind of slow leak.

Thanks again

Tom

 

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4 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

A good mechanic once said: “Start simple and move to the complex when troubleshooting.”

That's good advice, but I'd strike a second axis across the "simple ---> complex" one labeled "most likely ---> least likely".

Start your diagnosis in the "simple/most likely" quadrant. If no success, I usually sample a bit out of the "simple/least likely" and "complex/most likely" fields, leaving the most difficult & rare conditions for someone smarter than myself to find & fix. Posters here were very helpful sharing their own issues with 2030/2020 glow plugs -- adding the weight of "likely" to the qualifier "simple". Yay hive mind.

(For example, the electrical on my partner's Ford Escape was acting up. Alternator diode packs/regulators are a known issue on those cars, but it's very hard to test the diodes in situ, and bench testing requires dropping a half axle or jacking the engine forward to remove the alternator. But "bad diodes" fit the symptoms &  problem reports well enuf that we paid a shop to do the business.)

Sounds like there might be more complexity here, tho.  Would an engine with underlying compression or injector leakdown be more reliant on hot glow plugs for starting than an otherwise healthy one?

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Diesels need fuel, air, compression and heat to run. Depending on the compression ratio, the heat might come from compression alone or need glow plugs to start and combustion to run. There are few engines that won't run if cranked long enough, but it's hard on the starter.

There's probably no reason to replace the glow plug relay if wiggling all the wires around fixed the problem as seems to have been the case. It was probably just a bad connection.

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My Volvo Penta 2005 D2-55C revs a lot when cold starting, and puts out a very small puff of black smoke. Otherwise the engine runs well and once warm starts nicely without excess revs at the start up. Could the Glow plugs be the reason for high revs at start up with cold engine?

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1 hour ago, Itsabimmerthing said:

My Volvo Penta 2005 D2-55C revs a lot when cold starting, and puts out a very small puff of black smoke. Otherwise the engine runs well and once warm starts nicely without excess revs at the start up. Could the Glow plugs be the reason for high revs at start up with cold engine?

More likely the speed control parts (governor) don’t run as smoothly as they should. 

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6 hours ago, Itsabimmerthing said:

My Volvo Penta 2005 D2-55C revs a lot when cold starting, and puts out a very small puff of black smoke. Otherwise the engine runs well and once warm starts nicely without excess revs at the start up. Could the Glow plugs be the reason for high revs at start up with cold engine?

No.

In this case, I’ll suggest  something in the injection system/fuel delivery. 

 

Peeps... all glow plugs do is heat the pre-chamber to allow combustion to happen. Once engine is warmed, GP not needed. GP aren’t spark plugs...

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On 8/4/2019 at 4:00 PM, Moonduster said:

Diesels need fuel, air, compression and heat to run. Depending on the compression ratio, the heat might come from compression alone or need glow plugs to start and combustion to run. There are few engines that won't run if cranked long enough, but it's hard on the starter.

There's probably no reason to replace the glow plug relay if wiggling all the wires around fixed the problem as seems to have been the case. It was probably just a bad connection.

Yep I agree - but I did find on anther forum that the Volvo relays that are mounted on this engine tend to want to pop out - one poster suggested that they put padding in-between the cover and the relay to hold relay in.  Not sure if that was the case with me as I saw that comment after I pulled the relay out and put it back in.  It sort of makes sense. In the picture (no cover) there is room for relay to move upwards with cover on.

 

relay box.jpg

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Sorry for hijacking this thread...

Any idea what would cause the engine to spit out small amounts coolant, via the small hose coming down the side of the engine from the heat exchanger cap? is this normal or is there some maintenance needed?

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3 minutes ago, Itsabimmerthing said:

Sorry for hijacking this thread...

Any idea what would cause the engine to spit out small amounts coolant, via the small hose coming down the side of the engine from the heat exchanger cap? is this normal or is there some maintenance needed?

Normally there would be an expansion tank connected to that hose. So yes it is normal, in a way. System will eject coolant until some lower level is reached, which on modern engines designed to use an expansion tank might be too low for proper operation.

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On 8/12/2019 at 10:32 AM, El Boracho said:

Normally there would be an expansion tank connected to that hose. So yes it is normal, in a way. System will eject coolant until some lower level is reached, which on modern engines designed to use an expansion tank might be too low for proper operation.

That era of VP had expansion tank as an option. It can still be easily installed with a kit that replaces the cap. They work fine as is, but a larger volume of coolant due to boiler or heating system may cause the coolant to expand more than system can handle without an expansion tank.

As long as the coolant level doesn't drop too low, there is no problem. Just don't fill the system all the way leaving no room for expansion next time you change the coolant.

I do have a boiler and no expansion tank in my MD2020. The coolant is high enough without overflow, thus I don't plan to install an expansion tank.

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I have an expansion tank, and a boiler. So propably high volume system/small expansion tank is the reason...

When cold, the expansion tank is empty. When engine has been running for a while, the expansion tank is half full.

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What kind of expansion tank do you have and how is it connected. D2-55 seems to have this kit: https://www.marinepartseurope.com/en/volvo-penta-explodedview-7744440-26-7505.aspx

If you have that, how could there still be the hose you describe leaking?

MD-series have quite a different type of kit: https://www.marinepartseurope.com/en/volvo-penta-explodedview-7740690-26-573.aspx

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I would have thought that hose is removed when the expansion kit is installed. Is the hose still connected as in the picture despite the expansion kit replacing the cap? That would seem odd. The cap functions as a pressure relief valve and lets out air or water when the pressure is too high. That function should now be taken by the expansion tank cap.

It also sounds odd that the level in the expansion tank varies as much as you describe. Do you have exceptionally long hoses to boiler? Maybe you have some air pocket in the system? Air would expand a lot more than water.

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It is a bit weird that the "down hose" is still there? Maybe it is letting some coolant out but also letting air in the system and should be blocked?

Air in the system: Should I block the down hose, open expansion tank cap, add some coolant and run the engine to remove possible air pockets?

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The expansion kit looks like it replaces the radiator cap and seat, eliminating the overflow hose.

I would try blocking the hose off and see how things go.

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