james3232

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18 minutes ago, oioi said:

Define safe?

The imoca boats have a massive beam and are stable without a keel. You could jump up and down at max beam and it's not going to fall over.  Hoist full sail and go on a beam reach,  maybe not so good. 

Which side of the argument are you trying to support? 

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20 minutes ago, mad said:

Which side of the argument are you trying to support? 

What's the argument? Question was pretty daft. Only reason I answered was because I'm bored

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2 hours ago, Chimp too said:

Make them strong enough to cope with expected conditions, like hitting shit at normal sailing speeds. Then you don’t need exploding bolts and stuff. You just need crash helmets.

The problem is that making them strong enough to hit shit at 25/30 knot will probably mean they won't do 25/30 knots.

Its like saying make an F1 car that can hit the wall at 100mph and carry on racing.

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2 hours ago, oioi said:

Define safe?

The imoca boats have a massive beam and are stable without a keel. You could jump up and down at max beam and it's not going to fall over.  Hoist full sail and go on a beam reach,  maybe not so good. 

The second Safran launched about 4 years ago was launched in Lorient with the rig in and without a keel. They then motored over to La Base and set the boat on the keel

11036383_957418530942580_6582518209599288307_o.jpg

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...and fill the ballast tanks, as well as fully extend the foils.

What could possibly go wrong?

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10 hours ago, JonRowe said:

The problem is that making them strong enough to hit shit at 25/30 knot will probably mean they won't do 25/30 knots.

Its like saying make an F1 car that can hit the wall at 100mph and carry on racing.

But it has been done with similar size and speed boats, and tested several times. So it is possible.

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Soft they retired (That is a joke BTW)

 In the 2004 Vendée Globe, Golding finished third despite losing his keel — an accident which had caused boats in previous Vendée Globe races to overturn — on the last day of the race. He sailed the last fifty miles with a tiny sailplan to keep the boat upright

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24 minutes ago, Bill E Goat said:

Soft they retired (That is a joke BTW)

 In the 2004 Vendée Globe, Golding finished third despite losing his keel — an accident which had caused boats in previous Vendée Globe races to overturn — on the last day of the race. He sailed the last fifty miles with a tiny sailplan to keep the boat upright

This ain't the VG.! 

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1 hour ago, Chimp too said:

But it has been done with similar size and speed boats, and tested several times. So it is possible.

Really? Care to provide a citation? These IMOCAs are the first offshore monohulls I know of that reach 25/30 knots, so I'm genuinely interested to know where this has been done before where the boats could have collisions at that speed and keep on racing at that speed under sail alone...

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The last generation IMOCAs are a lot more unstable without keel than previous generations were. At least HB and Charal that share the same hull design. This is because foils start to work so early that it is wise to optimize the hull to have less wet surface in displacement mode. This means hulls are narrower and more round. This is pointed out in this video as well:

 

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Latest from the team:

***Update from the Alex Thomson Racing technical team***

16:00 GMT / 17:00 CET 

Alex and Neal are safe and making good progress onboard HUGO BOSS. They are now around 300 miles away from the Cape Verde Islands, sailing with caution at around 10 knots. They have both managed to get some sleep and are focused on getting safely to land. 

Members of the Alex Thomson Racing technical team have arrived in Cape Verde and are preparing for the boat’s arrival. Further members of the team will make the journey in the coming days in order to meet Alex and Neal, and to facilitate the boat’s safe arrival. 

Our current routing has the boat arriving by Friday morning. We are in regular communication with our skippers and are monitoring the boat’s progress around the clock, as we will continue to do until HUGO BOSS is safely into port.

(Copied from their FB feed)

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Pretty fast limping to port

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18 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Has water ballast 

Thanks for a real answer as opposed to some of the dolts on here. I reviewed the IMOCA class rule and saw they have the ability to add water ballast and the boats are required to be able to stay afloat even fully flooded. 

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3 hours ago, JonRowe said:

Pretty fast limping to port

With a foil out I wouldn't be surprised if the boat is more stable when making good progress... and, all other things being equal, a quicker passage to safety would seem wise.

Cheers,

              W.

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1 hour ago, WGWarburton said:

With a foil out I wouldn't be surprised if the boat is more stable when making good progress.

Good point, well made

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Although the foil won't be lifting the boat clear of the water, it will still be applying lift force to give the boat extra RM then if there was no foil.

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Euh, without keel (angle of heel is larger) and with slow speeds  I reckon the foil is not very productive.

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12 hours ago, JonRowe said:

Really? Care to provide a citation? These IMOCAs are the first offshore monohulls I know of that reach 25/30 knots, so I'm genuinely interested to know where this has been done before where the boats could have collisions at that speed and keep on racing at that speed under sail alone...

Well the 24 hour monohull record of over 600 miles gives an average of 25 knots and that was a VO65. So that proves that them and any monohull faster than them can reach these speeds. 
there were several cases of VO70s coming to stand stills at this sort of pace and having no structural damage. Often not shouted about as no one wants to when it might have been a whale. Even when Vestas hit the islands at a recorded speed of 22.1knots and ripped the bulb clean off, the keel fin and internal structure was found to be intact and undamaged when it was pulled apart.

 I know of cases with Il Mostro, E3, Tele Blue amongst others that also survived and didn’t need more than cosmetic repair. 

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21 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Even when Vestas hit the islands at a recorded speed of 22.1knots and ripped the bulb clean off, the keel fin and internal structure was found to be intact and undamaged when it was pulled apart.

I point out that HB's internal structure is intact, and the keel fin is too. Its only the one design pivot thats broken...

The VO65s had several high profile crashes at lower speeds too, one which lead to it being flown half way around the world rather than sailed too..

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8 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

At 10 knots I would think the foils are generating pretty significant RM

That's the good part with foils, they act as stabilizers in this case. The more they build speed, the more the boat will heel and lean on its foil and the more the foils till provide RM. I am pretty sure that boats with foils are able to sail much faster without a keel than straight daggerboard in the same situation. 10 kts without keel is impressive, much faster than many boats on a Sunday's ride.

Would be interesting to know (if disclosed), how much motoring they will do before reaching land and if the approach is different to fuel. They could well have motor on as long as battery is between 60 and 100% even if not really required since they should gain power back. Not the same incentive to hold back than fuel powered.

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I'm guessing a little bit,  but I think the effectiveness of the foil ( the lift from the foil) is a square function of speed.

At 10 knots they are getting a quarter of the lift they would be getting at 20knots. 

 

Still pretty impressive to be going faster than my 4knot shit box,  with no keel!

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HB could be heading for PORTO GRANDE, St Vincent. Has an airport and cranes big enough to get her out of the water for transport. Bonus; it is a broad reaching destination instead of close reaching or upwind to the Canary Islands.

BTW; I found a boat at Marinetraffic at the expected position (260 NM almost due north of Cape Verde) with a heading due south doing 6 kts at that time, a satellite position 11 hrs old. That position is 20 NM west of the expected routing I did days earlier. But without a keel the leeway will be considerable I presume. If that's the right boat, HB would arrive in the night from Friday to Saturday when maintaining an average speed of 10 kts. If that boat stays at 6 kts as recorded at that time by Marinetraffic, the ETA would be Saturday afternoon. * disclaimer; not taking any bets on the ETA *

Schermafdruk 2019-11-07 10.46.49.png

HB with GFS and possible boat fix.png

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Will be interesting to see if future foils might give more attention to leeway.

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21 hours ago, JonRowe said:

I point out that HB's internal structure is intact, and the keel fin is too. Its only the one design pivot thats broken...

The VO65s had several high profile crashes at lower speeds too, one which lead to it being flown half way around the world rather than sailed too..

We don’t know that about HB. And hull damage has nothing to do with this discussion 

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25 minutes ago, stief said:

Will be interesting to see if future foils might give more attention to leeway.

The boats are now allowed to take foils fore and aft which can give the tip of the foil a forward rake of a few degrees and some of the new boats can produce up to 2° of negative leeway. However Thomson’s foils remain solely designed for the downwind Vendee Globe race that has been mentioned so many times before. The perfect foil doesn’t exist!!!!

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HB is almost in the harbour, Mindelo at Ilha de Sao Vicente. Someone care to take a line or photo? A splendid job saving the boat, hats of for Alex and Neal! I hope she can be repaired in time for the next VG. 

8537B5BA-13B5-47AF-B6CE-55B4D58339D2.png

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The wind in Mindelo is due to pick up considerably during the morning. I hope that they'll be OK. I've sailed there and there can be some vicious gusts between the islands.

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wow , they are in .....the wind between the two island santo antao and sao vincete can be funnelling between the two, gusts up to forty are common . 

some of the largest standby rescue tugs for shipping prep here and the locals work to supply some of the best crayfish from the step beaches that just drop away into deep water as the whole island is a single volcano...in the Portuguese architecture of the town all the the little bars had all the major labels of grog,....but it was all clear liquid that was all the same homebrew....Fado Queen Cesaria Evoria was a special world music experience...what a voice.....  but it was watching the armed militia storm down to the harbour and then hide behind any form of cargo , machine guns at the ready,  then we watched a slow yacht arrive at a crawl ...all sail torn, ..too large for an ocean ,cruiser windows stove in..she was low in the water and her two crew so relieved to arrive....they were happy to be arrested as the had made it..!!!   the Boat had been stolen from the Seine river and it was only luck they had made it....  one of the strangest time warp places to arrive ...  a desert in the middle of the ocean and a tiny oasis dot in that desert is Mindelo

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Well done and good to see the boat and crew are now safe. They seem to have had a surprisingly quick sail, with far more control than expected. Good on them!

Both, Alex and Neil certainly have gone through some adversity in their long sailing careers. A video in the Brest Atlantiques thread (link by Huey) reminded me of a young Neil MacDonald losing a mast and sailing from the Kerguelen to Perth under jury rig on Kingfisher in 2002.

Incidentally, he also lost his mast on Fortuna in his first  Whitbread in 1993, together with Jason Carrington actually. 

Meanwhile Alex can check out Mindelo for when he stops there in the TOR. He does not talk about it anymore, but I am sure he will want to do that race, after winning the VG. Maybe Neil will even come with him, for his 8th RTWR.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theoceanrace.com/en/news-amp/12320_The-Ocean-Race-is-coming-to-Cabo-Verde-in-2021-22.html

And talking about Jason, he will probably warn Alex and Neil to be careful not to eat lobster in Mindelo, as he once got a rather bad salmonella infection after eating a lobster salad there. Small world indeed...

PS. Just see Huey's nice story above, mmm not sure about that crayfish though...

 

Edited by Fiji Bitter
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2 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Well done and good to see the boat and crew are now safe. They seem to have had a surprisingly quick sail, with far more control than expected. Good on them!

Both, Alex and Neil certainly have gone through some adversity in their long sailing careers. A video in the Brest Atlantiques thread (link by Huey) reminded me of a young Neil MacDonald losing a mast and sailing from the Kerguelen to Perth under jury rig on Kingfisher in 2002.

Incidentally, he also lost his mast on Fortuna in his first  Whitbread in 1993, together with Jason Carrington actually. 

Meanwhile Alex can check out Mindelo for when he stops there in the TOR. He does not talk about it anymore, but I am sure he will want to do that race, after winning the VG. Maybe Neil will even come with him, for his 8th RTWR.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theoceanrace.com/en/news-amp/12320_The-Ocean-Race-is-coming-to-Cabo-Verde-in-2021-22.html

And talking about Jason, he will probably warn Alex and Neil to be careful not to eat lobster in Mindelo, as he once got a rather bad salmonella infection after eating a lobster salad there. Small world indeed...

PS. Just see Huey's nice story above, mmm not sure about that crayfish though...

 

Minor correction, they lost both masts on Fortuna that time round. 

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People have done more than that in the VG no?

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13 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

People have done more than that in the VG no?

J P Dick in the 2012 Vendee did 2650 miles. Alex was involved, too

Quote

The British skipper showed a fine sense of fair-play changing his route to stand by his rival in case he had any difficulty, when the conditions turned rougher to the south of the Azores. He sent him the following message: “Hi Jean-Pierre. The seas are getting bigger and bigger today. I don’t feel like leaving you all alone out here with the wind set to strengthen again in a few hours. I’m going to gybe and come over to you. I’ll sail with you until the weather conditions improve off the Azores. I know you didn’t ask for help, but it isn’t going to change anything in my race and I haven’t seen any other boats for months, so am feeling a  bit lonely! I hope all is going well, Alex.” 

 

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Yeah I remember JPD doing a big stint to get home, his situation was why Alex got 3rd that year really. Didn't Mike Golding finish a VG without a keel too?

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Yes, though I did't follow that edition (2005 ). And there were others. Canadian Gerry Roufs was lost at sea in the 1997 Vendee, and I thought there was something about the keel, but can't find the discussion now.

And pre-coffee memory thinks there were others . . .

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33 minutes ago, stief said:

Yes, though I did't follow that edition (2005 ). And there were others. Canadian Gerry Roufs was lost at sea in the 1997 Vendee, and I thought there was something about the keel, but can't find the discussion now.

And pre-coffee memory thinks there were others . . .

Most likely Gerry Roufs boat was capsized by huge waves that he mentioned during his last transmissions. This occurred back in the day when these boat capsized, they stayed upside down. Months later parts of his boat washed ashore in Chile.

https://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/news/17917/gerry-roufs-lost-at-sea-twenty-years-ago

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18 minutes ago, yl75 said:

Marc Guillemot finished (3rd) without his keel in 2008 2009, he lost it 800 nm from Cap Finistere :

https://www.letelegramme.fr/ig/dossiers/vendee-globe-2008/vendee-globe-guillemot-est-3eme-16-02-2009-252622.php

(he also rescued Yann Elies in that edition)

Oh right - -  thanks. And that was also the race Sam Davies crossed 3rd, but was 4th because of Guillemot's rightfully deserved time correction.

Laughed at the article saying the advantage of no keel was not having to await the tides to get into Les Sables.:P

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Both Sam and Marc stood by when Yann was injured but neither of them rescued him. That was down to the military. Both were given arbitary time allowances, Sam arrived third, Marc many hours later, but when the allowaces for both were deducted, Marc came out less than one hour ahead.

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Marc Guillemot, Jean-Pierre Dick and Mike Golding have all finished without a keel. That was pre 2015. The RM requirements changed with the foiling boats, i remember it being mentioned when Alex capsised in the 2015 TJV, with their keel on, although they never blamed the new rules. With narrower boats and less water ballast it must be a lot more difficult to manage a boat without a keel these days. Hugo Boss is the first foiler to have done 800 or so miles without a keel....Paul Meilhat's situation from the previous Vendee is also very interesting. He managed to stabilise his swinging keel using ropes and sailed from around Point Nemo to Tahiti to save the boat. And the rescue services.

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Marc sailed 976 miles after jettisoning his keel (and losing his anchors if I remember right) in the 2008/9 VG. (according to Sailworld).

So many Imocas have sailed long ocean passages without a ballast keel it just proves that Imocas can still sail OK, and in very light and favourable winds, losing several tons of metal is not exactly a handicap, other than it is obviously less safe than having one, and less safe than sailing to the nearest safe haven.

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Right now would be the time to film the new stunt. A spoof of the original keelwalk sounds about right.
After all Alex did say that he would do that one again without problems. ;)

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Boat tilted at 90°, shot arount the boat till you see the hole in the hull, and Alex emerge from it in a brand new shinny Hugo Boss suit, like a newborn baby.

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On 11/14/2019 at 5:21 AM, popo said:

Boat tilted at 90°, shot around the boat till you see the hole in the hull, and Alex emerge from it in a brand new shinny Hugo Boss suit, like a newborn baby porcupine because of the Carbon Fibre splinters.

FTFY

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22 minutes ago, Brittaniawaivestherules said:

Plenty of time to fix her up before the VG. Will be some story when he wins it.

hb2.jpg

hb.jpg

nice insight on the hull lines. Also, it wouldn't be the first time a damaged boat won the VG. Foncia had to come back to Sables D'Olonnes and fix something after a day's sailing. Macif blew out one of its sails. 

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On 11/7/2019 at 5:56 AM, JonRowe said:

I point out that HB's internal structure is intact, and the keel fin is too. Its only the one design pivot thats broken...

The VO65s had several high profile crashes at lower speeds too, one which lead to it being flown half way around the world rather than sailed too..

Interesting comment about the keel fin - how do you really know when it is on the floor of the Atlantic Ocean?

And your second point? Well, why let the facts get in the way of  good story/argument?

The VO65 didn't have "several high profile crashes at lower speeds too" which didn't lead to "being flown half way around the world". 

The only thing that was flown half way round the world was anew mast for Dongfeng in her first outing when she lost the top 1/3 of her stick 250 miles from Cape Horn.The mast was flown then trucked to Itajai while she made it there on her own bottom (note - on her own bottom) to meet up with the new carbon tube.

Only two VO65s had "high profile crashes at lower speeds" sadly both called Vestas. First time round as everyone except JonRowe will clearly remember was when she was driven up on a reef in the Indian Ocean in the middle of the night while doing around 20 knots. I doubt if many boats would have got off any less damaged than she did after that.

Next time around, Vestas again (different boat, same sponsor) this time it was a Chinese fishing boat. From my knowledge of these vessels(the fishing boat) they are typically built of inch think hardwood and again the VO65 was doing (from the reports from the team themselves) around 20 knots. Vestas applied for Redress but it was denied.

In the first instance the boat- well what was left of her - was recovered from the reef, returned to Persico and lived to sail again. In the second situation the boat missed the Hong Kong -Guanzhou leg along with the leg down to Auckland and she went by ship (ships don't fly by the way) to give the guys time to repair her before the Auckland re-start.

To the best of my knowledge not one VO65 ever flew half way round the world

Bit silly to make statements when so many people know the actual facts

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26 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Only two VO65s had "high profile crashes at lower speeds" sadly both called Vestas. First time round as everyone except JonRowe will clearly remember was when she was driven up on a reef in the Indian Ocean in the middle of the night while doing around 20 knots. I doubt if many boats would have got off any less damaged than she did after that.

Next time around, Vestas again (different boat, same sponsor) this time it was a Chinese fishing boat. From my knowledge of these vessels(the fishing boat) they are typically built of inch think hardwood and again the VO65 was doing (from the reports from the team themselves) around 20 knots. Vestas applied for Redress but it was denied.

In the first instance the boat- well what was left of her - was recovered from the reef, returned to Persico and lived to sail again. In the second situation the boat missed the Hong Kong -Guanzhou leg along with the leg down to Auckland and she went by ship (ships don't fly by the way) to give the guys time to repair her before the Auckland re-start.

To the best of my knowledge not one VO65 ever flew half way round the world

Bit silly to make statements when so many people know the actual facts

Also worth noting that after the first crash, which was violent enough to rip the bulb clean off the fin, when all was dismantled and examined in Persico it was concluded that the keel ram tray could have been reused and the only damage to it was from removing it from the remains of the hull. So the internal structure and the keel fin were in fact intact and structurally fine apart from when they were intentionally taken apart. (the fin was cut on site).

In the second incident, this was nothing to do with the keel. It was a hull repair.

It will be interesting if we get any photos of what remains of the internal structure of HB. If it was just the OD pin failure as JonRowe suggests then they will just need a new fin, bulb and OD ram set, which are probably all on order already. If she goes back into the shed for any period of time it suggests that we are looking at ore than this. To be honest, if it was the OD pin, the rest of the fleet should be worried.

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@shanghaisailor I apologise,  my statement was made in... haste? exuberance? to defend the IMOCA 60 as an excellent piece of engineering and the pinnacle, in my opinion, of monohull offshore racing, after someone else basically claimed they were build bad because one broke.

My point was only that the other round the world racing boats also break, and are not as extreme (for a monohull), in my opinion, as the IMOCA in terms of chasing the design envelope or performance, so to say that IMOCAs are fundamentally flawed because the keel broke on one after a high speed collision, well then by extension every other boat thats suffered a collision and had to be rescued / repaired must also be flawed, which is not what I believe.

If I got the facts wrong I apologise again, I thought 11th hour was flown back into the race after the HK crash? Was it only shipped?

 

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Not putting you down, just putting you right. Yes she was shipped but the HK - Auckland distance is well  short of 'halfway round the world'. It is in fact only a tadge over 5,000 Nm according to my nav software- less than a quarter really ;-) To fly the whole lot would take an aircraft not only long enough (for the rig) but fat enough for the hull. Dongfeng's stick came on a cargo 747 but doubt it would be wide enough for a VO65 hull - maybe, I don't know, I am a sailor not a flyer. In actual fact the final 600km to Itajai on a (bloody long) truck was almost more challenging.

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2 hours ago, JonRowe said:

so to say that IMOCAs are fundamentally flawed because the keel broke on one after a high speed collision, well then by extension every other boat thats suffered a collision and had to be rescued / repaired must also be flawed, which is not what I believe.
 

JonRowe, you suggested that the OD keel pin failed in this incident. If that is the case then it would suggest that all IMOCA using the OD keel are fundamentally flawed, as they have keels that won’t survive a collision with a submerged object at a normal sailing speed. 
I suspect it was not the OD pin that failed. But if you are right, it does suggest that the whole fleet is flawed.

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20 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

JonRowe, you suggested that the OD keel pin failed in this incident. If that is the case then it would suggest that all IMOCA using the OD keel are fundamentally flawed, as they have keels that won’t survive a collision with a submerged object at a normal sailing speed. 
I suspect it was not the OD pin that failed. But if you are right, it does suggest that the whole fleet is flawed.

Honestly what we know is that the keel stopped being attached to the boat via the pin, so I am assuming either the pin failed, the bearing was ripped out of the boat, or otherwise became disconnected. I have no inside knowledge, I've just looked at the public videos. Nothing has been said about fin to bulb damage, so I assumed that was still in one piece, nothing else in the boat seemed to break up, or float, so I assumed it was structurally intact. 

The boat got to shore safely under its own power, with its rig up, without assistance, so the designed safety parameters did the job and the boats are solidly engineered. Until Alex's team comes back with more I'm going to leave it there, but as far as I'm concerned the boat did it's job, and did it well.

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Aft keel pin pushed up into the boat, forward one under tension stress held.

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18 hours ago, JonRowe said:

The boat got to shore safely under its own power, with its rig up, without assistance, so the designed safety parameters did the job and the boats are solidly engineered. Until Alex's team comes back with more I'm going to leave it there, but as far as I'm concerned the boat did it's job, and did it well.

I doubt it would be same in the South Ocean. You´d be evacuated immediately. 

We have seen that AT had work hard a few hours to release the keel while it kept damaging the hull. Imagine to try do that in South Ocean in huge waves?

Nope, some homework are still to do for the OD keel. Add some weight and find a reliable, easy mechanism of  "release the keel". See the example of Kito de Pavant. It´d happen for AT in same way. 

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16 hours ago, GBH said:

Aft keel pin pushed up into the boat, forward one under tension stress held.

Is there a pic of this? 

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It happenned.only twice in the history of iMOCA ...

Nobody dead or injured

Chill down

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1 hour ago, popo said:

It happenned.only twice in the history of iMOCA ...

Nobody dead or injured

Chill down

Which rock have you been living under? IMOCA losing their keels is far too common an occurrence. 

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This was AFAIK the first OD keel that got lost.
Kitos boat in the last VG was from 2009.

I can't remember an image of the keel pin bearing on HB but the team (and thus the class) should have lots of them. Of course they also have the boat. :)

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2 hours ago, Chimp too said:

Which rock have you been living under? IMOCA losing their keels is far too common an occurrence. 

How many since the one design rule?  I’ll wait. 

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55 minutes ago, Chasm said:

This was AFAIK the first OD keel that got lost.
Kitos boat in the last VG was from 2009.

I can't remember an image of the keel pin bearing on HB but the team (and thus the class) should have lots of them. Of course they also have the boat. :)

Kito used the OD keel I think. Kitos used the old VP3 which lost its keel in 2012 and subsequently dismasted in HB colours in the Barcelona World Race. Pretty certain the keel it had wasn't grandfathered in.  

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9 hours ago, Monkey said:

How many since the one design rule?  I’ll wait. 

Popo clearly stated in the history of the class, not the OD keel. I believe that this is the second OD keel to be lost. I also suspect that the support structure, which is not OD may be the cause. 

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9 hours ago, troll99 said:

not to mention that new boats go higher speed so it has to be updated ..faster therefore heavier

It’s not the speed that’s the problem is the fact the keel is being used to lift the boat which was never part of the original design concept of the one design keel.  Fatigue cycles have gone through the roof.

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9 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

It’s not the speed that’s the problem is the fact the keel is being used to lift the boat which was never part of the original design concept of the one design keel.  Fatigue cycles have gone through the roof.

As the keel pins have always been inclined I suspect that this was always the intent. The issue is the load cases designed to. If fatigue is an issue with a boat only a few months old, they would all be failing now, and they aren’t. They need to be designed to survive an impact at these speeds intact. Simple as that. 

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fatigue was the reason for HB's break but it is going to lead to issues in the fleet.  If I was going around in a second hand boat I'd be budgeting for a new keel before the Vendee.  Better safe than sorry.

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But HBs keel is virtually new, so gone through very few fatigue cycles. It didn’t fail from fatigue, it failed from high load from impacting with something in the water

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if someone crashes into your brand new car the reason for the damage is the Fiat sticking out the side, not that you were a little late on checking the service history.

HB lost the keel because it ran into something with lots of mass at speed. Not because the keel and structure had gone through lots of cycles.

my concern is solely that the expectation of this incident is unfortunately high, and the structure of the keel and yacht should be designed to cope with it and not fail.

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It would be good to have a definition of "keel pin". If we are talking about the cylindrical bits of solid metal which fit into the bearings which are fixed into structure, surely these "pins" are integral with the fin forging itself and it is forged from a relatively high strength alloy? For one of these to break off without damaging the boat structure at at least one end of the head of the keel, is, to put it mildly, a difficult scenario to imagine. To shear such a "pin" clean off the end of the forging would require a truly immense impact load and even if that is what happened, and the structure at the at the end with the break was undamaged, how could the structure at the other end possibly survive the displacement of the keel head as it comes out of alignment unless the bearings are "self aligning" which is not the case at least on some other Imocas?
Conclusion, what has been made public is far from the whole story. Personally I doubt that a pin would break off such a forging due only to the described event without other damage to the boat and I doubt that the one design keel is inadequate for a foiling Imoca. That's just my educated guess. I think it would be interesting for all other users of the same design of keel forging if the HB organisation would give a full and detailed account of what actually happened.

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That isn’t an OD IMOCA keel. The ram attachments are offset so that the single ram has adequate throw. The lock pin is only meant to be used when centred, so sits on the reduced throw side. Not sure who that is for, but not an OD IMOCA fin for sure.

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6 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

fatigue was the reason for HB's break but it is going to lead to issues in the fleet.  If I was going around in a second hand boat I'd be budgeting for a new keel before the Vendee.  Better safe than sorry.

You’re pretending fatigue is some mysterious undetectable source of failure in steel alloys. Which is simply not the case. 
 

If the Hugo Boss keel failed as you’re speculating to have failed because of fatigue and not hitting something (which happens to stop the boat to a standstill from 25 knots to 0), then two things have to be true. 
 

1. AT and team are lying about what happened. 
 

2. Keel fins are being made out of non OD compliant alloys. 

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22 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Just read properly and that is actually one of the keel fins that prompted IMOCA to go OD, as it failed.

good thing the design company doesn't build anything really important 

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22 hours ago, Chimp too said:

Which rock have you been living under? IMOCA losing their keels is far too common an occurrence. 

Losing yeah

Having the bottom of the hull ripped open by the keel twice ...

Be a little bit more carreful with facts and trying to school people

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Looks like OD keel is camera shy.

There is a picture of a finished keel in the 2016 VG race village. A recruitment tool for AMPM. Similar design to the not od keel, also by AMPM.
There is a Thyssen Krupp France newsroom article, again similar design just in raw form.

What I did find is an article about Kitos boat, a picture of one of the bearings holding the keel after the wreck came ashore.
http://www.madeinmidi.org/non-classe/on-a-retrouve-60-pieds-imoca-bastide-otio
Which does not solve solve the question if that keel was actually OD or not. :)
 

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we focus on keel too much. We forget hull that hold the keel.. sometimes hull is a weak point. Thats the case of Hugo.

The hull is not exactly OD and its better to have keel that breaks. Not the hull. 

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5 hours ago, Miffy said:

You’re pretending fatigue is some mysterious undetectable source of failure in steel alloys. Which is simply not the case. 
 

If the Hugo Boss keel failed as you’re speculating to have failed because of fatigue and not hitting something (which happens to stop the boat to a standstill from 25 knots to 0), then two things have to be true. 
 

1. AT and team are lying about what happened. 
 

2. Keel fins are being made out of non OD compliant alloys. 

No that was a typo posting from my phone while waiting for take away.  Was meant to read "HB failure wasn't from Fatigue".

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