james3232

New Hugo Boss Spotted

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2 hours ago, Chimp too said:

They have carefully avoided the keel area I see. Just on the edge of the bottom right photo, where you can see damage, but nothing telling.

And what is that opening on the bottom right pic ? it is way aft of the foil opening :

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Some kind of inspection hatch for the water ballast ? but why from the outside ?

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Bumping this vid. Good reminder from the ATR team about build weight, released back in late October. 

Pretty sure Pete will be revisiting the build area around the keel supports.

(there's also the vid about the layup. I recall a frame or two of the workers shaving and sanding areas where they could)

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12 minutes ago, yl75 said:

And what is that opening on the bottom right pic ? it is way aft of the foil opening :

Some kind of inspection hatch for the water ballast ? but why from the outside ?

Thought that was one of the drains for the tunnels? Might be getting that confused with another discussion.

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15 minutes ago, stief said:

Thought that was one of the drains for the tunnels? Might be getting that confused with another discussion.

Hole where tang for deck spreader stay attaches.

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I've been following all the keel conjecture (because that is all it is) as well as the pics being posted. Initially my thought was the impact caused a failure in the forward bearing carrier allowing the keel pin to disengage from the forward bearing, slide forward and drop out of the aft bearing at that point hanging only from the ram. Looking at the various pics of the boat that have been posted from the offload in the UK it appears the forward bearing carrier was still intact. In the latest twitter pics there appears to be some centerline damage immediately aft of the keel opening. This aft damage along with the forward bearing still being attached to the boat makes the scenario where the aft face of the keel box moved  (broke/flexed/whatever) enough to let the keel disengage from the forward bearing and then the keel dropped out. As the keel pivot is part of the keel forging I think it very suspect that one of the pin ends failed. But this is all conjecture from the pics.  

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The good news is whatever the damage, the boat didn’t sink - when they were grinding away at it, the structure would’ve be immediately under the enclosed cockpit, which looked to be fine. 
 

I don’t see it as a failure of the OD concept even if some folks seem to be writing for Pravda. 

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So where does one source an imoca keel assembly at short notice ? 

Are they supplied or do you just fabricate your own to OD spec ??

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Not being serious, but what about the sound of an orca pod on the hunt as a deterrent? If it was audible to humans it would drive you nuts!

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3 hours ago, Rainbow Spirit said:

Not being serious, but what about the sound of an orca pod on the hunt as a deterrent? If it was audible to humans it would drive you nuts!

Because all those poor creatures that are not human will go nuts...

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9 hours ago, Essex said:

So where does one source an imoca keel assembly at short notice ? 

Are they supplied or do you just fabricate your own to OD spec ??

Only the keel fin, the keel pin and the ram assembly are OD. Keel fins are supplied by AMPM. The RAM assembly is supplied by Hydroem.

https://ampm-meca.fr/

http://hydroem.fr/

 

You can find all the infos on the class rule. (there is a quite thorough chapter concerning the design rule of the keel attachement vs grounging load etc... starting at page 33)

https://www.imoca.org/en/imoca/official-documents

 

 

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8 hours ago, Rainbow Spirit said:

Not being serious, but what about the sound of an orca pod on the hunt as a deterrent? If it was audible to humans it would drive you nuts!

Because, judging by the effects of naval sonar, which uses sound that does somewhat resemble the calls of orcas, it makes deep-diving beaked whales in the vicinity surface so fast that they can die from the bends.  Imitating orcas risks killing a different, but larger sample of marine life.  If orca sound were restricted to warn whales in busy coastal shipping lanes, too shallow for beaked whales, you would still risk driving whales of other species out of essential feeding grounds, starving them instead of running them down.  

Warning sound may be a good solution, but I would be cautious about imitating orcas.
 

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1 hour ago, Chasm said:

[Above vid]

Thanks for the find Chasm--lots of good stuff there despite the platitudes. (Good discussion of the sonar/ OSCAR possibilities, but that's for the other thread). Still not clear how the keel separated from the bearings/ structure.

But, bottom line is (at 16:17)

Quote

it's certainly not all lost but it as  you know it's a big kick in the teeth. It's something we really didn't need something we really didn't want but you know these situations happen that's the nature of the sport we're in and you know the journey is always hard. We always knew it was going to be hard and this is just one of those things that happens and you know we've learned how to deal with it you know the team is pretty very resilient I think it's a it's it's helpful that we can see some performance which you know we can see the boats fast. Oh I genuinely believe we're still in the game, we need to find out how long this is going to take and we need to try and get on the water as quickly as possible. You know I'd really hope that we're back on the water by March, you know it gives us a few months and before we do the the New York to one day race in June

 

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On 12/11/2019 at 12:45 PM, The Dark Knight said:

Just googled it and was shocked to see how common it is.  

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR2N4Kc2-XNfLYz7jmO2Da

 

 

 

14 hours ago, WetSnail said:

Because, judging by the effects of naval sonar, which uses sound that does somewhat resemble the calls of orcas, it makes deep-diving beaked whales in the vicinity surface so fast that they can die from the bends.  Imitating orcas risks killing a different, but larger sample of marine life.  If orca sound were restricted to warn whales in busy coastal shipping lanes, too shallow for beaked whales, you would still risk driving whales of other species out of essential feeding grounds, starving them instead of running them down.  

Warning sound may be a good solution, but I would be cautious about imitating orcas.
 

We start the engine, charge the batteries for a bit and hope the sound keeps the humpbacks aware of us. There goes that illusion.

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She should have asked whether they had time to "inspect" the keel before dropping it, like taking videos with a gopro or something.

If yes the damages or not on the  keel fin covering should allow to tell whether it was a semi submerged container or a whale/big fish.

And hitting a whale at 25 knts could very well feel like a "complete stop"

 

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I'm surprised Alex doesn't describe the sound of an impact like that, especially in a full carbon boat. I've hit, with the daggerboard of a trimaran, what we presumed was a whale (off the Azores, night time, nothing seen) from ~9 knots to a dead stop in a ~ 3.5 ton boat and there was a massive bang. They were luck to get away with no serious injuries, even our relatively slow crash resulted in a dislocated shoulder for the skipper who was standing within inches of the bulkhead he hit and bruising for myself when I bent the SS wheel with my back. Have heard it estimated to be a 3 month job to repair HB btw.

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On 12/9/2019 at 8:20 PM, Miffy said:

Many marine biologists, anti-whaling activists, navies, shipping companies have tried. No one has found a signal. 

Have previously long lined in the gulf of ak where we'd lose 30% of our catch to whales as we hauled. Captain spent $10s of thousands on various noise makers over multiple seasons to zero affect, if anything whale losses increased.

That said alerting whales they are about to get hurt may work differently than alerting whales to an easy food source

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On 12/17/2019 at 3:21 AM, CBGB said:

I'm surprised Alex doesn't describe the sound of an impact like that, especially in a full carbon boat. I've hit, with the daggerboard of a trimaran, what we presumed was a whale (off the Azores, night time, nothing seen) from ~9 knots to a dead stop in a ~ 3.5 ton boat and there was a massive bang. They were luck to get away with no serious injuries, even our relatively slow crash resulted in a dislocated shoulder for the skipper who was standing within inches of the bulkhead he hit and bruising for myself when I bent the SS wheel with my back. Have heard it estimated to be a 3 month job to repair HB btw.

Which is what suggests to me that it was a soft impact to a whale rather than a container. And if insufficient to cause personal injury, shouldn’t have torn the keel out.

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Update from the team on how the repairs are going and expected timeline:

https://www.alexthomsonracing.com/blog/2019/12/24/alex-thomson-racing-update-hugo-boss-repair/

Upon arrival from the Cape Verde Islands, HUGO BOSS was moved to Southampton. There, a full NDT (non-destructive testing) of the boat was carried out in order to assess the damage sustained during the Transat Jacques Vabre.
 

We can now confirm that, as suspected, the damage is contained to the keel area. The rest of the hull, the foils and rudders are undamaged.

Following the NDT, our Composite team began working to cut away the damaged parts of the hull and structure. Together, our Structural Engineers, Gurit; Naval Architects, VPLP; Design Manager, Pete Hobson; and in-house team have been working to construct a full repair plan. This plan will allow our boat builders to move swiftly forwards with the work required throughout the Christmas period.

Our in-house technical team, meanwhile, has been focused on the remainder of the keel area, in order to identify the parts that require replacement. These include the keel, keel hydraulics and bearings, some of which have significant lead times and so it was imperative that we moved quickly.

We have appointed additional specialist resource in order to deliver the repairs as quickly as possible. This includes Pro Build Composites, who will continue to lead the repair programme, and Carrington Boats Ltd, the team who built HUGO BOSS and therefore know the boat very well.

Our objective is to complete the work required as quickly as possible, but to deliver a comprehensive and robust repair. We expect to be sailing again by March 2020, at which point we will move straight into a testing and development period. We will aim to secure as many miles on the water as we can ahead of the New York to Vendée race in June.

In just six weeks, we have delivered HUGO BOSS safely back to the UK, carried out a full NDT, removed the damaged sections of the boat, put together a comprehensive repair programme and assembled a formidable team to manage and deliver that plan. To execute each of those steps in such a short space of time is a testament to the resilience and determination of this team.

While this is of course a setback for us, there are many positives to take away. During the short window of time that we had to sail alongside the rest of the IMOCA fleet in the Transat Jacques Vabre we were able to gain a good understanding of HUGO BOSS’ performance and potential. We are very confident with that performance and are looking forward to developing further as we push on towards the Vendée Globe.

Our team will commit everything they have to ensuring that, when we reach the start line of the Vendée Globe on November 8th, we are in the best possible position. Winning the Vendée remains the sole objective of this team

 

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On 12/18/2019 at 6:27 AM, Chimp too said:

Which is what suggests to me that it was a soft impact to a whale rather than a container. And if insufficient to cause personal injury, shouldn’t have torn the keel out.

Haha, of course a ~40 tonne whale is all soft blubberiness you'd just bounce off. Ffs, sailing into anything substantial at 20+ knots is almost certainly going to write your boat off.

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2 hours ago, CBGB said:

Haha, of course a ~40 tonne whale is all soft blubberiness you'd just bounce off. Ffs, sailing into anything substantial at 20+ knots is almost certainly going to write your boat off.

As I have said before, VO70s have done exactly this and sailed on. So you are wrong. Hitting an animal, also moving, compared to a container or rock is a very different thing.

 

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10 hours ago, Chimp too said:

As I have said before, VO70s have done exactly this and sailed on. So you are wrong. Hitting an animal, also moving, compared to a container or rock is a very different thing.

 

And before you ask, we know it was whales as blubber had to be removed from the sacrificial leading edge when the boat was lifted. Happened several times throughout the races and training.

keel structure all checked and no problems or repair work. Know of at least twice when this happened well into the mid 20s Boat speed

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ATR guys who are reading here...

It's time for an update on the reipair! Keep the volume loud (and feed our curiosity)! :D

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Waiting, waiting.....

Screen Shot 2020-02-01 at 7.44.55 AM.png

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I've said before, I love ATR's new direction of publicity videos, so much more mature and engaging than a "stunt".

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4 hours ago, Laurent said:

Yeah.... but what I want to see is the new foils!!!

And the new structure for the keel.

 

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How many team members does HB have ? And I like their titles......

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3 hours ago, Chucky said:

How many team members does HB have ? And I like their titles......

Everyones a director!

Who is left to be directed?

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That video was a waste of my time, how about some real info on the progress of the new HB?

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Still waiting, waiting, waiting.....

80246706_3917983858215637_2062102970920599552_n.jpg

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1 hour ago, Raptorsailor said:

Is he posing on the batmobile?

Don't think so, Raptor. I thought it was a pretty cool pic - in an all mouth and trousers kind of way.

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2 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

Is he posing on the batmobile?

A Hugo Boss marketing shot?........ a major rebuild of the keel area and a radical change of foils?

Just a very random thought. 

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In oder to arrive or even win you got to prepare.
Some shots of the boat while it still had the keel.

 

 

 

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When will we get episode keel restructuring?

I saw Jason Carrington in several shots, staying in the background out of modesty, but would really like to hear his insights from the builders point of view.

 

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How long has Hugo Boss been out of action now? Must be taking valuable time out of their preparation and testing? Charal and the others will have  a decent head start you'd think. 

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6 hours ago, terrafirma said:

How long has Hugo Boss been out of action now? Must be taking valuable time out of their preparation and testing? Charal and the others will have  a decent head start you'd think. 

Probably, but they said they'd be back on the water by early march afaik. So not long to wait now. 

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The bat cave beckons, once again...

ESGoRSLXUAESr00.jpeg

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13 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

ESGoRSLXUAESr00.jpeg

Showed like this, it is quite spacious, dry and clean space.

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35 minutes ago, Lakrass said:

Showed like this, it is quite spacious, dry and clean space.

Makes me wonder what it's going to be like to doing relentless sail changes thru the doldrums at 2 in the afternoon...

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It looks crazy dry.  I have no idea how they approached the doldrums problem, but I can assure you they have.  It's a great cockpit for most of the VG and probably not so great for most of the RDR.  

 

 

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2 hours ago, r.finn said:

It looks crazy dry.  I have no idea how they approached the doldrums problem, but I can assure you they have.  It's a great cockpit for most of the VG and probably not so great for most of the RDR.  

 

 

I heard they could open most of the windows. Should be fine once he's stripped down. It is solo after all. 

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he'll be just fine in the doldrums, just get a little cross ventilation going, and stay hydrated. that cockpit setup will save him massive amounts of physical/mental fatigue during the VG, they know they designed the new standard for a VG boat. not to mention the net boat speed advantage because of it.

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He can strip down all he likes, open all the hatches, and max all fans, it's gone be hell inside whatsoever.

In the doldrums he needs to react very quickly to changing weather conditions, that's bloody hard work. And making the most of the drifting conditions is equally exhausting.

There is no escaping, maybe a big assymetric auto trimming windscoop will help, but they collapse as soon as you lay down for a kip, and you will wake up in a puddle.

The best tip I can give him is to drink plenty ORS solutions, but he will know that, and probably make his own magical Boss drink.

Anyway, good luck to him in the tropics, he will make up for it when it's cold and wet.

 

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One more, this time something along the lines of solo sailing means you know who messed up.

 

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Fly by wire...

88191379_4136284169718937_6102502684793765888_n.jpg

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19 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Fly by wire...

88191379_4136284169718937_6102502684793765888_n.jpg

That should help him keep awake... NOT!

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11 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Fly by wire...

88191379_4136284169718937_6102502684793765888_n.jpg

more spaceship than boat. Speaking of fly by wire... does anyone think we'll see that in the not too distant future on the imoca?

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3 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

more spaceship than boat. Speaking of fly by wire... does anyone think we'll see that in the not too distant future on the imoca?

???

I would consider auto pilot a 'fly by wire system', no?

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4 hours ago, Liquid said:

???

I would consider auto pilot a 'fly by wire system', no?

fly by wire means there's no physical link between the controls and control surfaces being moved. Hence fly-by-wire. Instead of a mechanical/hydraulic/hydro-mechanical it's all electric and goes through many computers/accelerometers... much faster, more accurate etc... it's how they make unstable jets fly straight in the military. It's also lighter.

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2 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

fly by wire means there's no physical link between the controls and control surfaces being moved. Hence fly-by-wire. Instead of a mechanical/hydraulic/hydro-mechanical it's all electric and goes through many computers/accelerometers... much faster, more accurate etc... it's how they make unstable jets fly straight in the military. It's also lighter.

Which is the same as an autopilot, where there is no physical link between the control panel and the rudder. It goes through several computers, accelerometers, and electrical connections before force is applied by the ram. It's how they make sleep deprived skippers fly straight in races. Although an autopilot isn't really lighter.

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Not quite. 
 

fly by wire takes pilot input and processes the desired input into control surface movements necessary to achieve the desired pilot input. 
 

There isn’t such a thing in IMOCA- there’s no person driving the boat when the autopilot in on. 

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12 hours ago, Miffy said:

Not quite. 
 

fly by wire takes pilot input and processes the desired input into control surface movements necessary to achieve the desired pilot input. 
 

There isn’t such a thing in IMOCA- there’s no person driving the boat when the autopilot in on. 

It is really down to your interpretation, modern aeroplanes are mostly automatic, they can even land themselves if necessary. The "pilot input" is to make them feel in control, they push the stick in the direction and the plane goes in that direction. I really don't see much difference between that and pressing +/- to change the boats course, its just one is a joystick and one is a button.

Where there is a difference is that IMOCAs are still capable of fully manual control, where as a fly by wire aircraft is not. 

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On 3/3/2020 at 3:43 PM, Fiji Bitter said:

He can strip down all he likes, open all the hatches, and max all fans, it's gone be hell inside whatsoever.

In the doldrums he needs to react very quickly to changing weather conditions, that's bloody hard work. And making the most of the drifting conditions is equally exhausting.

There is no escaping, maybe a big assymetric auto trimming windscoop will help, but they collapse as soon as you lay down for a kip, and you will wake up in a puddle.

The best tip I can give him is to drink plenty ORS solutions, but he will know that, and probably make his own magical Boss drink.

Anyway, good luck to him in the tropics, he will make up for it when it's cold and wet.

 

I can see painting the deck a gray or tan color to cut glare, but these boats are sailed from the inside.  I would have demanded a white deck to keep it cool.  It's easier to put on another layer to warm up than to cool down....

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2 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I can see painting the deck a gray or tan color to cut glare, but these boats are sailed from the inside.  I would have demanded a white deck to keep it cool.  It's easier to put on another layer to warm up than to cool down....

I'm pretty sure they're using a special BASF paint that is thermally reflective - the old boat was the first to use it..

https://www.basf.com/global/en/media/news-releases/2015/10/p-15-363.html

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Part 6. Most decisions count, may that be sooner or a few weeks later - and there are a lot of them.

 

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with all the update tec it's interesting to see the bog standard hella fan , that's at least 40 yr old tec :)

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Yak, yak, yak, all those shots look like they are from the previous HB. I thought this thread was about the new boat.

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And they are a bit meaningless to real sailors, like us on SA. :)

 

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9 hours ago, TUBBY said:

There are REAL SAILORS on here?

Who'd a thought.

Half of us seem to spend more time here than on the water.

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5 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:
14 hours ago, TUBBY said:

There are REAL SAILORS on here?

Who'd a thought.

Half of us seem to spend more time here than on the water.

Speaking only for myself, I'm a has-been wannabe.

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