james3232

New Hugo Boss Spotted

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3 hours ago, Mr Moab said:

Happens all the time in pro cycling. A low% of the public actually cares. A high % sees a cool boat and a brand and thinks “hmm, maybe I will check that out”. 

also happens in pro sailing with gear- See Dongfeng in the volvo

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The thing most people do not realize is that the autopilot systems on these boats are completely custom built with no relation to any off the shelf components from any brand.

Therefore it is a smart move from Raymarine to get there name on a boat.

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On 8/6/2019 at 1:08 PM, littlechay said:

That's my take on what those are for two. Complicated geometry but it looks as if the whole rudder including stock can kick up, another reason for the separate tiller and associated linkage. Pretty simple change in case of breakage too.

It looks like a pretty standard IMOCA kick-up rudder arrangement IMHO

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6 hours ago, Trevor B said:

Another thought on using a Diesel engine for energy generation, how do you cool it on a foiler?

Use a radiator?

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On 8/11/2019 at 4:38 AM, Chimp too said:

I think that Raymarine and Raytheon are both part of the Navico group, so the guys are probably from someone else in the group.

Just for the record - Raytheon and Raymarine certainly did start out together but parted ways in 2001.  Raytheon is now owned by United Technologies who are a pretty secretive outfit that makes all kinds of military hardware that is mostly aircraft related.  The only brand of theirs that is commonly known is Pratt and Whitney the aircraft engine company.  Raymarine is part of the FLIR group which makes a range of military electronics.

Navico, in addition to the brands that others have mentioned, also make the C Map charting system.  Go back a few years and they were making the Robertson and Northstar ranges.  You can still get parts for both from Simrad dealers.

Stop by my boat sometime and I'll show you a true museum piece - my Raytheon GPS which still works.

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15 minutes ago, savoir said:

United Technologies who are a pretty secretive outfit 

Not very secretive at all - just a big conglomerate. Well they also owned Sikorsky helicopters until fairly  recently. Otis Elevators, Kidde (fire extinguishers), Carrier (A/C giant), Collins Aerospace (airplane parts), Chubb Security, etc etc 

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Savoir, just for the record, Raytheon and Raymarine did not "start out together".

And Flir does not just make a range of military products.

And BTW, FYI,  the original Navico was a small English company with a very cheap autopilot and instruments.

And stop by my boat sometime and I show you a true museum piece - my great grandpa's very first five-channel GPS, weighing 270 pounds:  

531-gps_very_first_1976.thumb.jpg.b69f5aee75b1272991164bb3288963f8.jpg

 

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9 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Savoir, just for the record, Raytheon and Raymarine did not "start out together".

And Flir does not just make a range of military products.

And BTW, FYI,  the original Navico was a small English company with a very cheap autopilot and instruments.

And stop by my boat sometime and I show you a true museum piece - my great grandpa's very first five-channel GPS, weighing 270 pounds:  

531-gps_very_first_1976.thumb.jpg.b69f5aee75b1272991164bb3288963f8.jpg

 

Did the assistant navigator make the tea?

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

Not very secretive at all - just a big conglomerate. Well they also owned Sikorsky helicopters until fairly  recently. Otis Elevators, Kidde (fire extinguishers), Carrier (A/C giant), Collins Aerospace (airplane parts), Chubb Security, etc etc 

Raytheon = defense stuff

UTC = Pratt, Otis, Carrier and Collins Aero.  Collins makes lots of stuff for Boeing and Airbus planes, some defense stuff but not much (they also make the hoists that the CG Helo will use if you start sinking......

Otis and Carrier being spun off and then remaining UTC will merge with Raytheon...

and, based on my experience with FLIR, they are super smart engineers, who are involved with a lot of very cool projects and also include some pretty experienced sailors

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36 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Savoir, just for the record, Raytheon and Raymarine did not "start out together".

And Flir does not just make a range of military products.

And BTW, FYI,  the original Navico was a small English company with a very cheap autopilot and instruments.

And stop by my boat sometime and I show you a true museum piece - my great grandpa's very first five-channel GPS, weighing 270 pounds:  

531-gps_very_first_1976.thumb.jpg.b69f5aee75b1272991164bb3288963f8.jpg

 

 

I sure hope you get an age allowance for carrying that thing.

 

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10 hours ago, Trevor B said:

Another thought on using a Diesel engine for energy generation, how do you cool it on a foiler?

Same problem exists for the hydro-generators, tough to do if you’re not actually in the water....!

I suppose with a Heat Exchanger cooling system the internal water has a small period where it can sustain cooling until it's exchanged again? The foilers aren't staying out of the water for long although I suspect the new boats plan to so yes good question. Perhaps and increase in cooling water may help? A small raw water reservoir may help in between flight? 

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18 hours ago, Trevor B said:

Another thought on using a Diesel engine for energy generation, how do you cool it on a foiler?

This was solved already years ago with the OD keel - the raw water intake is now in the keel fin.

 

18 hours ago, Trevor B said:

Same problem exists for the hydro-generators, tough to do if you’re not actually in the water....!

I hope this will be solved with the next version of OD keel where the electrical propulsion is integrated into the keel bulb. Hopefully.

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7 hours ago, hairyharford said:

better wind forecast   ....foils this week ?   ....Sailing ?

Any sign of the foils yet? 

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2 hours ago, mad said:

Any sign of the foils yet? 

They said something about 'international reveal' on the 14th September... so I guess we have to wait until then... or if you're in the Portsmouth/Gosport area get the binoculars  and cameras out...

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3 hours ago, AndreasE said:

 

67B431AF-CAAD-41A7-A8D2-6287ABCADCB9.jpeg

I love the elegance of that mechanism. the pivots wouldn't be ball joints would they?

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3 hours ago, mad said:

Any sign of the foils yet? 

Probably still trying to get Wilkinson on board. :lol:

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54 minutes ago, Chasm said:

Probably still trying to get Wilkinson on board. :lol:

Well they’re definitely getting the most out of the PR from it all, I’ll find the other thread. 

in short handed Anarchy, this forum split is a pain in the arse! The YouTube link shows the marketing drive. 

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3 hours ago, 3to1 said:

I love the elegance of that mechanism. the pivots wouldn't be ball joints would they?

It only needs to rotate about one axis, a ball joint is not needed. I would expect ball joints to be used on the linkages though.

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6 hours ago, 3to1 said:

I love the elegance of that mechanism. the pivots wouldn't be ball joints would they?

Balls of course:

Self aligning, no need to worry about anything except length when swapping over and length adjusted with a screw of the ball.

ball joints.jpg

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25 minutes ago, littlechay said:

Self aligning, no need to worry about anything except length when swapping over and length adjusted with a screw of the ball.

I love ball joints.  Hard love. So perfect. 

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32 minutes ago, Tito said:

I love ball joints.  Hard love. So perfect. 

Ditto for sativa 

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Any chance we can get back to discussing what is new and different about the boat rather than the pretty standard kick up rudder system?

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45 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Any chance we can get back to discussing what is new and different about the boat rather than the pretty standard kick up rudder system?

go ahead if you have something to contribute

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Wonder how long before she is sailing? If there not showing the foils until September sometime that might be it? 

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21 hours ago, AndreasE said:

 

67B431AF-CAAD-41A7-A8D2-6287ABCADCB9.jpeg

Why 2 holes on the bottom platform of the assembly?

I assume the forward one is where the shaft of the rudder will reside, with associated bearing assembly. But what is the aft hole for, the one close to the left hand of the guy standing beside AT? Or is it not a hole but just a recess? Still, what for, then?

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IMG_1907.jpg

Older Boss had them too.
All I can think off; easier to spot weed on the rudder ?

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2 minutes ago, LeoV said:

IMG_1907.jpg

Older Boss had them too.
All I can think off; easier to spot weed on the rudder ?

Must get some strange turbulence from the hole though?

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4 minutes ago, mad said:

Must get some strange turbulence from the hole though?

Many boats have plexiglass- here is the old Foncia (now Sam Davies' boat) 

975_H650_foncia-safran-2.jpg

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10 minutes ago, ctutmark said:

Many boats have plexiglass- here is the old Foncia (now Sam Davies' boat) 

975_H650_foncia-safran-2.jpg

Doh!!  good point

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25 minutes ago, mad said:

Must get some strange turbulence from the hole though?

Will still have Plexi or Camera

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2 hours ago, ctutmark said:

Many boats have plexiglass- here is the old Foncia (now Sam Davies' boat) 

975_H650_foncia-safran-2.jpg

Must be it; you glue a plexiglass round piece to make the whole assembly flush and you can see if there are weeds wrapped around the rudder blade.

Thank you!

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7 hours ago, Brittaniawaivestherules said:

She's motoring out of Portsmouth Harbour right now. First sea trials?

foils?

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On 8/12/2019 at 7:05 PM, littlechay said:

Balls of course:

Self aligning, no need to worry about anything except length when swapping over and length adjusted with a screw of the ball.

ball joints.jpg

The advantage that I see for using a ball joint for that pivot is simplicity. A regular bearing, even a self aligning bearing would require the axle to be at an angle relative to the end of the strut. Totally doable but a ball joint does not require that direction change and is therefor simpler to contsruct. And yes, I can see how it would be easier to thread the balls in or out to make height adjustments, but side to side adjustments would be more difficult. However, the main feature of the ball joint, the several degrees of freedom, is not utilized in this application.

 

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1 hour ago, Tito said:

^^^ And we are back to balls. 

Love it. 

^^^ And we are back to joints.

Love it.

smileys-passing-joint.gif.329285f1c25453a2fae1db1c1de4aa35.gif

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The kick back mechanism appears robust, but the actual steering arm seems a bit wimpy.. Suspect it is not just aluminum tubing :)

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I really wish there would be some sightings in decent resolution :ph34r:

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13 hours ago, hoom said:

I really wish there would be some sightings in decent resolution :ph34r:

If they’re out today? No chance, the visibility is shit. 

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On 8/14/2019 at 7:51 PM, W9GFO said:

The advantage that I see for using a ball joint for that pivot is simplicity. A regular bearing, even a self aligning bearing would require the axle to be at an angle relative to the end of the strut. Totally doable but a ball joint does not require that direction change and is therefor simpler to contsruct. And yes, I can see how it would be easier to thread the balls in or out to make height adjustments, but side to side adjustments would be more difficult. However, the main feature of the ball joint, the several degrees of freedom, is not utilized in this application.

 

balls are where it's at.

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14 hours ago, mad said:

If they’re out today? No chance, the visibility is shit. 

Where you at, Mad? Gosport?

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Where you at, Mad? Gosport?

Out on the Solent yesterday, wet and grey......very wet. 

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they are out today I am sat on the beach in Seaview and they are blast reaching out  past Bembridge wiht jib and reefed main. Its 20-25kts of wind and wind against tide so they are certainly not holding back. They are about 2 miles away so no pics I am afraid but good to see them out testing hard. As I type it looks like they have paused for lunch as now cruising on main only but still heading out into the Channel proper..... then turn round, jib out and blasted back to Portsmouth!

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It looks like both foils are mostly all the way up in this picture. I know most of the other boats can’t do this, interested to see the solution here. I think Boss has some unique foils. 

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OK, spare me the "f off newbie"...been here before but had to re-register.

I was lucky enough to get up close to the boat, and I can honestly say any pictures out there so far simply do not even come close to doing it justice.  It's incredible..."porn star" finsh carbon throughout (not black paint as it looks) and just details details details everywhere.  Check out the forward windows on the cabin top and the nav lights built into the stanchions for starters.

And...here are the foils.  They look perfectly "circular" to me and very unlike any of the wide, flat, "Corsair Wing" designs elsewhere.  This thing is an absolute WEAPON and Alex has probably already won the psychological startline battle in this.  It is an incredible machine and I am 100% rooting for Alex this time round!

 

 

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

4.jpg

6.jpg

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15 minutes ago, Iain_C said:

OK, spare me the "f off newbie"...been here before but had to re-register.

I was lucky enough to get up close to the boat, and I can honestly say any pictures out there so far simply do not even come close to doing it justice.  It's incredible..."porn star" finsh carbon throughout (not black paint as it looks) and just details details details everywhere.  Check out the forward windows on the cabin top and the nav lights built into the stanchions for starters.

And...here are the foils.  They look perfectly "circular" to me and very unlike any of the wide, flat, "Corsair Wing" designs elsewhere.  This thing is an absolute WEAPON and Alex has probably already won the psychological startline battle in this.  It is an incredible machine and I am 100% rooting for Alex this time round!

 

 

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

4.jpg

6.jpg

"Far out" noob... thanks for posting the photos.

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Is it just me or with the exception of tip details, do those foils look like they could be end for ended and swapped in the event of damage?

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3 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Is it just me or with the exception of tip details, do those foils look like they could be end for ended and swapped in the event of damage?

Not just you, that was my first thought. 

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6 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Is it just me or with the exception of tip details, do those foils look like they could be end for ended and swapped in the event of damage?

That they do 

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Good old C boards.  Used on ORMAs, Mod 70s, A-Class and many others.   Proven performance for skimming boats and that is what these boats do.  Cool to see.  

The ability to retract seems like a major plus for light air performance.  Perhaps doesn't give away much in the high speed skimming area.  

Less righting moment lift is needed with the lowered center of effort for the sail.

Everything works together to get easier rather than harder with this design it seems.

Does the sail have a smaller head than some of the other boats?  That would be another sensible step.  The boat is narrower, the boom is lower, the boat has less less form stability, the sail plan doesn't have to have the huge head to get some early heel to reduce wetted surface, the foils have to work less hard so they can be smaller, the sailor can maneuver and trim more easily, the boat is more wave piercing and steady in pitch, etc.  Life is getting easier and quicker!

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And while we're looking at interesting boats,  who is that lovely lady on the hard in the background of the second & third shots?

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Anyone else curious how those boards come all the way up?  I can't tell from the pictures.

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Iain, thanks for the great photos.answered many a question (and raised some more).

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5 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Is it just me or with the exception of tip details, do those foils look like they could be end for ended and swapped in the event of damage?

Just need to deal with the 400lbs or so, right? :-)

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36 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Just need to deal with the 400lbs or so, right? :-)

Should be easy on a pitching deck ;)

3 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

I'm guessing rollers at the exits

I've never seen a roller driven system for lifting boards.  Anyone know of an existing one?  You can clearly see the line holding the boards down, but I have no idea how they pull them that far up.

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7 minutes ago, r.finn said:

I've never seen a roller driven system for lifting boards.  Anyone know of an existing one?  You can clearly see the line holding the boards down, but I have no idea how they pull them that far up.

Its definitely been done.  Possibly Leopard.  Can't find any photos

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2 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Its definitely been done.  Possibly Leopard.  Can't find any photos

The AC72s, Camper and a couple of the other 70s. Seennthem on a few IMOCA as well close up. But sorry, don’t have any photos.

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5 hours ago, DtM said:

Iain, thanks for the great photos.answered many a question (and raised some more).

No worries.  I thought you lot on here might like these!

I'll say it again though, this looks like nothing you have ever seen and the finish and attention to detail are incredible.

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6 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

Good old C boards.  Used on ORMAs, Mod 70s, A-Class and many others.   Proven performance for skimming boats and that is what these boats do.  Cool to see.  

The ability to retract seems like a major plus for light air performance.  Perhaps doesn't give away much in the high speed skimming area.  

Less righting moment lift is needed with the lowered center of effort for the sail.

Everything works together to get easier rather than harder with this design it seems.

Does the sail have a smaller head than some of the other boats?  That would be another sensible step.  The boat is narrower, the boom is lower, the boat has less less form stability, the sail plan doesn't have to have the huge head to get some early heel to reduce wetted surface, the foils have to work less hard so they can be smaller, the sailor can maneuver and trim more easily, the boat is more wave piercing and steady in pitch, etc.  Life is getting easier and quicker!

Very interesting thoughts...and yes, I think you are right.  "Less is more" here...

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Looking at the first of Iain’s photos you can see the watertight hatch just inside the canvas covered opening and forward of the main traveller. So no separate cockpit and interior solution, all is now basically inside.

also you can see that all of the sheets come out through the traveller to the transom area then forward to the sails. Logical way to keep things inside dry.

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6 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Looking at the first of Iain’s photos you can see the watertight hatch just inside the canvas covered opening and forward of the main traveller. So no separate cockpit and interior solution, all is now basically inside.

also you can see that all of the sheets come out through the traveller to the transom area then forward to the sails. Logical way to keep things inside dry.

Yep.  It doesn't really show in the photos but the size and design of the door make it look very much like it's going to be closed 99% of the time.  The canvas cover has a zip down either side, but again it strikes me as something that will be closed nearly all of the time.  I'd have expected some kind of "roller blind" arrangement if it was going to be used as some kind of conning position regularly.

It's interesting the way it has all gone.  I've sailed what at the time was Toe In The Water, (formerly Pindar, now Alcatraz IT), one of the much older generation fixed keel boats, but with a very exposed cockpit.  I asked the skipper Steve White "so what was it really like down in the Southern Ocean", and he said "not too sure really, I hardly ever went outside".  It just makes total sense to tuck everything away like this, and spend as much time looking at water flow above deck as water flow under the hull.

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The push to reduce freeboard to reduce unnecessary weight and lower VCG constantly pushes in the direction of a wetter and wetter ride. So as they have done, don't fight it, but make sure that the deck sheds the water as efficiently as possible and that it doesn't slow you down too much. The reverse sheer and dramatically reduced freeboard at the transom helps this even more. After all, water on the deck is an increase in momentary sailing displacement that loads everything up. So get it off as soon as it arrives and don't worry about getting wet by staying inside out of the way.

The sad thing is that even before the first TOR using the IMOCA, the designs of single handed and crewed IMOCA are diverging at an increased rate. This boat really could not be modified to compete in TOR without completely changing the philosophy.

I also note that the C-Foils are tapered at the tips, so could not be fully retracted. The end 1m or so will always be out there. Probably not an issue, but interesting to me. I also hope that they get their real bobstay soon so they can get rid of that make do one.

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22 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

I also note that the C-Foils are tapered at the tips, so could not be fully retracted. The end 1m or so will always be out there. Probably not an issue, but interesting to me. I also hope that they get their real bobstay soon so they can get rid of that make do one.

In that configuration the leeward on will probably acts as a DSS foil and the teeny bit of drag it caused may be offset by the additional righting moment (although this may be irrelevant with a canting keel?)

Either way in the light stuff with presumably a smaller lighter boat, less appendages in the water and less aerodynamic drag, it's still likely to be the quickest boat out there...

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1 hour ago, Iain_C said:

In that configuration the leeward on will probably acts as a DSS foil and the teeny bit of drag it caused may be offset by the additional righting moment (although this may be irrelevant with a canting keel?)

Either way in the light stuff with presumably a smaller lighter boat, less appendages in the water and less aerodynamic drag, it's still likely to be the quickest boat out there...

Thanks Iain appreciate the photos.! Interesting times ahead as we always expected Alex to be different and he's done that.! Can't wait to see it sailing and how those foils perform? They could also be Gen 1 foils so what do we read into them at this point?

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13 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Is it just me or with the exception of tip details, do those foils look like they could be end for ended and swapped in the event of damage?

I imagine the foil section shape would prevent that but I could be wrong.  Maybe they could just be extended out a little further if the tip broke off given the apparent circular shape?  I would still want a cockpit!

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52 minutes ago, bridhb said:

I imagine the foil section shape would prevent that but I could be wrong.  Maybe they could just be extended out a little further if the tip broke off given the apparent circular shape?  I would still want a cockpit!

I can’t see the foils being end for ended, but it looks like a symmetrical spare could be a viable option. Perhaps something 50 to 75% in length so it could actually be moved about with a halyard and decent weather window. 

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19 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I can’t see the foils being end for ended, but it looks like a symmetrical spare could be a viable option. Perhaps something 50 to 75% in length so it could actually be moved about with a halyard and decent weather window. 

should work but the trade is the extra weight if it you do not break one or looking smug if you do but with no cockpit full of water might be ok

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Do these foils have a daggerboard section like Maitre Coq foils had? Or what will prevent the boat drifting? The profile of outward C foils near to the hull don’t work against sails sideways force, rather it has the lifting force in the same direction.

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5 hours ago, Chimp too said:

The push to reduce freeboard to reduce unnecessary weight and lower VCG constantly pushes in the direction of a wetter and wetter ride. So as they have done, don't fight it, but make sure that the deck sheds the water as efficiently as possible and that it doesn't slow you down too much. The reverse sheer and dramatically reduced freeboard at the transom helps this even more. After all, water on the deck is an increase in momentary sailing displacement that loads everything up. So get it off as soon as it arrives and don't worry about getting wet by staying inside out of the way.

The sad thing is that even before the first TOR using the IMOCA, the designs of single handed and crewed IMOCA are diverging at an increased rate. This boat really could not be modified to compete in TOR without completely changing the philosophy.

I also note that the C-Foils are tapered at the tips, so could not be fully retracted. The end 1m or so will always be out there. Probably not an issue, but interesting to me. I also hope that they get their real bobstay soon so they can get rid of that make do one.

Speaking of things they need to fix, they could have at least painted the bow pulpit black too.

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7 hours ago, Iain_C said:

No worries.  I thought you lot on here might like these!

I'll say it again though, this looks like nothing you have ever seen and the finish and attention to detail are incredible.

Definitely, thanks for posting them up. 

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Not a significant detail but the pink rod in the steering mechanism is replaced with black one.

On 8/13/2019 at 5:05 AM, littlechay said:

ball joints.jpg

 

16 hours ago, Iain_C said:

!1.jpg

And I am a bit surprised to see how much of the transom is submerged. Does it have ballast tanks filled or is it the result of extra flat bottom?

 

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58 minutes ago, pilot said:

Do these foils have a daggerboard section like Maitre Coq foils had? Or what will prevent the boat drifting? The profile of outward C foils near to the hull don’t work against sails sideways force, rather it has the lifting force in the same direction.

If the foils have a symmetrical cross section near the tip then  they could be used mostly retracted upwind so just the mostly vertical part of the board is in the water. In that mode they'd be sailing upwind with the foils loaded on the reverse side of when they're sailing downwind and the package would look pretty similar to the daggerboard boats.

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59 minutes ago, pilot said:

Do these foils have a daggerboard section like Maitre Coq foils had? Or what will prevent the boat drifting? The profile of outward C foils near to the hull don’t work against sails sideways force, rather it has the lifting force in the same direction.

Should work just like any other C boards.  Normally, vertically oriented C boards have area near the tips providing more lift and the area nearer the boat providing leeway resistance.  These are flipped since they are aimed outside.  The primary leeway resistance will come from the tips with more lift coming from the more horizontal forces.

Most fast boats have immersed transoms.  As the boat speeds up, the stern will have dynamic lift. 

For real light air performance, I wonder if Alex has a tank in the bow he can load up to get the stern clear of the water.

 

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Looking at Lurker's post made me chuckle as we had different interpretations.  I suppose that is the beauty of the C board.  Depending on the heeling of the boat, different parts of the board do different things.  Roll the boat over enough, and the could be horizontal and purely lifting.

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Foils probably need to be lowered in light winds. At least it looks from behind that some bigger headsail might not fit over the retracted foil.

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12 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

Should work just like any other C boards.  Normally, vertically oriented C boards have area near the tips providing more lift and the area nearer the boat providing leeway resistance.  These are flipped since they are aimed outside.  The primary leeway resistance will come from the tips with more lift coming from the more horizontal forces.

Most fast boats have immersed transoms.  As the boat speeds up, the stern will have dynamic lift. 

For real light air performance, I wonder if Alex has a tank in the bow he can load up to get the stern clear of the water.

 

The issue with C-boards aimed outside is that if you're relying on them for both lift and leeway resistance then you've got both pressure and suction on both sides of the board and that is super draggy. It's basically negative endplating.

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