james3232

New Hugo Boss Spotted

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32 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Recent history would suggest that's not one of Alex's strength's. Did he sleep though his shock treatment, or forget to wind it up?

It ran out of power. He was trying to mitigate his own exp of sleeping thru alarms. I don’t think enough has been examined re the foiling generation of boats on the skippers exhaustion levels. 

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16 minutes ago, Miffy said:

It ran out of power. He was trying to mitigate his own exp of sleeping thru alarms. I don’t think enough has been examined re the foiling generation of boats on the skippers exhaustion levels. 

It's likely more a individual thing. François Gabart did amazing things alone for 42 days on a semi foiling boat a whole lot bigger.

 

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Nobody knows which boat is faster, they haven’t sailed against anyone else yet! 

But you carry on.... 

again, it was just harmless speculation in a forum on a little boat race, I wasn't trying to rub anybody's rhubarb. put your worried mind at ease.

 

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1 hour ago, jb5 said:

It's likely more a individual thing. François Gabart did amazing things alone for 42 days on a semi foiling boat a whole lot bigger.

 

Using Gabart as the metric to compare with other imoca skippers is kind of unfair. Plus diff boat diff weather diff challenges. 

Gabart’s amazing feat was one of great restraint - finding the right weather window, being disciplined and not putting the boat in a situation where it could pitchpole. But he had a team. 

AT on imoca isn’t allowed weather routing help. Diff gen. Diff boats. Let’s not compare them like that. Imoca boats have changed a lot the last 8 years. 

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1 hour ago, 3to1 said:

again, it was just harmless speculation in a forum on a little boat race, I wasn't trying to rub anybody's rhubarb. put your worried mind at ease.

 

Fair enough, but the fanboy shit really belongs in ACA.  I’ll let you know when I have a worried mind, as opposed to just annoyed. 

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Fair enough, but the fanboy shit really belongs in ACA.  I’ll let you know when I have a worried mind, as opposed to just annoyed. 

tell it to a fanboy. you ain't dictating a mf'ing thing to me about what belongs where in these forums, dough boy.

 

I'd still bet a little money that HB is the boat to beat, I base my hunch solely on the merits of it's advanced design.

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Their cells are US made. 

I like and have installed their product however I don't believe the cells are built in the USA.   "Lithionics Battery’s lithium battery systems are engineered and manufactured in our Clearwater, FL USA factory. Lithionics Battery® utilizes large format prismatic cells for reliable and more efficient battery connections. Our battery models are designed and engineered to use superior large format prismatic lithium cells, eliminating failure points associated with using smaller cylindrical lithium cells. "

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7 hours ago, savoir said:
9 hours ago, southerncross said:

0mXvHaU.png

Looks like Darth Vader's yacht.

You're not wrong

 

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So with the AC boats going for deck sweeping mains, could they be inspired to retrofit HB with something similar?   It's already pretty close to being a deck sweeping main, but there still is a small slot that can still let a lot of pressure through?  Have we seen any pictures of how for out the boom goes when she goes "down" wind?

 

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not sure if that would amount to much, all things considered. and wouldn't you want a little gap to let some water pass?

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1 hour ago, 3to1 said:

not sure if that would amount to much, all things considered. and wouldn't you want a little gap to let some water pass?

Absolutely, you would, 321.

Big difference sailing deep ocean swells to relatively protected flat seas. And anywho, how would you even manage a reefed deck sweeper ?

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Nice video, but no info on the batteries, electric motor, propeller, and whether or not he has hydrogeneration or not.

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Absolutely, you would, 321.

Big difference sailing deep ocean swells to relatively protected flat seas. And anywho, how would you even manage a reefed deck sweeper ?

Easy, the main reefs into lazy jacks on top of the boom and you have a skirt under the boom to close the gap.  Perhaps the skirt has to lift to let water through, but I don't think this boat will have any problem shedding water.

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9 hours ago, solosailor said:

I like and have installed their product however I don't believe the cells are built in the USA.   "Lithionics Battery’s lithium battery systems are engineered and manufactured in our Clearwater, FL USA factory. Lithionics Battery® utilizes large format prismatic cells for reliable and more efficient battery connections. Our battery models are designed and engineered to use superior large format prismatic lithium cells, eliminating failure points associated with using smaller cylindrical lithium cells. "

My pet hate is people who snip quotes like you Solo.

I said in full the other day not just "Their cells are US made" being your reply but;

"Their cells are US made. However pouches from China I don't know or feasible to seperate from case in terms of QA?"

Solo your post intimates Lithionics pouches, if not entire cells are not US made, but like me you actually don't know.

Your point is what?

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11 hours ago, mad said:

Fair enough, but the fanboy shit really belongs in ACA.  I’ll let you know when I have a worried mind, as opposed to just annoyed. 

I'm with you Mad ..fanboy speculation abounds. Like how many supposed rockets have we seen launched in say the last half century to see blow up on the launchpad and quickly become landfill?

TJV is just a see if the new HB rocket hangs together race, and even that won't tell all for the VG.

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I respect the minimalism- while the boat is still in the early build and probably have mods to be made, the simple jetboil reminds me of a mini 6.5. 

Something interesting would be how little time it’ll be for AT to be able to safely get to the cockpit and even sleep permanently there. 

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10 minutes ago, hoppy said:

it answers the Raymarine question....

Hoppy you need to get out more.

Love to know how much diesel he leaves with and then gets home with :-)

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3 hours ago, pilot said:

 

Some observations:

Clearly the bio tracker thing isn't anywhere near done, they were just screenshots.

That boom looks stupidly skinny.

I don't think I've ever seen so much exposed carbon so well done.

Downstairs tiller looks pretty awkward, although I know he'll barely be able to use it.

Quite a lot of latency on the camera system.

The 0 carbon thing still seems like a gimmick, although well intentioned.

Looks like the tablets are windows based, or running screen share, rather than running their software on device.

Alex is still a PR master.

Hugo Boss being in the carbon layup is sexy af.

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

it answers the Raymarine question....

In one of the interior pics there appeared to be a Raymarine pilot ram, there's a Raymarine logo on the radar and the likely some FLIR products. Anyone see anything else? 

 

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18 minutes ago, ctutmark said:

In one of the interior pics there appeared to be a Raymarine pilot ram,

How can you tell???...RM don't make their own rams.

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

How can you tell???...RM don't make their own rams.

Here's the picIPC6Hu9.jpg.bbe4c87a261c135c572e5f7b4e971a5f.jpg

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33 minutes ago, ctutmark said:

In one of the interior pics there appeared to be a Raymarine pilot ram, there's a Raymarine logo on the radar and the likely some FLIR products. Anyone see anything else?

At 6:35 you can see the B&G display showing SOG, wind speed, depth, and heading. So he's got a B&G autopilot at least for the brains of the system.

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Solo your post intimates Lithionics pouches, if not entire cells are not US made, but like me you actually don't know.

Your point is what?

Sorry you don't like the way I quote the information you posted.   I'd love to be corrected if I'm wrong of course but my point is they do not manufacture the lithium prismatic cells they use in the packs.   

They designed a BMS and assemble tested packs......   just like Victron, Mastervolt, etc.   Most of these battery companies that build completed packs don't make the cells.   I didn't say anything about pouch cells.    They use prismatic cells, not pouch or cylindrical.   Did you mean to say the cases?    Pouch cells are different....   like what Enerdel uses.

Here is another article where they state they "uses A+ grade lithium phosphate cells".   Uses, not manufacturers.   

https://www.wallytheairstream.com/buildstory/2018/10/28/liions-and-chargers-and-panels-oh-my-part-2-lithionics-battery-factory

"Lithionics uses A+ grade lithium phosphate cells.  Lithium ion batteries are in high demand right now, especially in high current applications.  Companies like Tesla (now manufacturing over 5000 cars per week) require an enormous amount of lithium ion cells and there are only so many manufacturers of those cells. Further, cells get graded on sale by the manufacturers based upon their power density, capacity, and internal resistance. They get priced out differently based upon their performance to spec. "

Back to the regular show.

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2 hours ago, hoppy said:

it answers the Raymarine question....

Chart plotter only. Correct?

 

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16 minutes ago, ctutmark said:

Here's the picIPC6Hu9.jpg.bbe4c87a261c135c572e5f7b4e971a5f.jpg

 

I'd be damned if they're using a Type 2 for Hugo Boss :D:D 

 

5 minutes ago, Laurent said:

Chart plotter only. Correct?

 

One of the funny things is I think the chartplotter market & laptop/box pc market is converging so quickly, I think the chartplotter part is losing market share except with mass manufactured boats. 

On the imocas, being so satellite communication dependent & local/skipper weather routing, you basically have to have a PC, and if you have a PC then the chartplotter becomes kind of a redundant source. 

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Surprised to see the new Boss still retaining water ballast for RM (from video).  Trim yes. But RM?

You’d think the new foil/canting keel package would have sufficed.

Thoughts?

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18 minutes ago, solosailor said:

Sorry you don't like the way I quote the information you posted.   I'd love to be corrected if I'm wrong of course but my point is they do not manufacture the lithium prismatic cells they use in the packs.   

Mate simple question is show evidence of them not being US made is all I'm asking?  

You so far are just interpolating brochure words like "uses" is not manufacturered blah blah.

18 minutes ago, solosailor said:

They designed a BMS and assemble tested packs......   just like Victron, Mastervolt, etc.   Most of these battery companies that build completed packs don't make the cells.

Mate I have them spread around a workshop, Mastervolt use Winston etc so know all that. I don't need to be told how to suck eggs.

I'm getting the feeliing you actually don't fucking know.

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27 minutes ago, solosailor said:

Yawn, then prove otherwise.

Yawn ...WTF you are one claiming they are not US made . Put up or shut up you wanker.

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image.png.ba8030610a386f5a0609c5e141fec798.png

The cockpit looks cozy. I would have expected a strap-on seat to withstand deceleration when going down the mine. Maybe this is done by hobbles.

No enjoyment for me will be watching online a sweating grinder all the time instead of pics of the ocean, the boat and the sailor. On the other hand this cockpit will be safer knowing the faster speeds.

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43 minutes ago, Miffy said:

One of the funny things is I think the chartplotter market & laptop/box pc market is converging so quickly, I think the chartplotter part is losing market share except with mass manufactured boats. 

Miff you forget powerboat sales of MFD's, sailboats a small share. 

Sales of standalone programs like Expedition and then followed by web based routing programs such as PredictWind etc as a guide indicate a spike starting around maybe 8 years ago with the cruising market employing PC's. I can't see any evidence of convergence though where MFD's are losing market share to PC's. MFD's if only for redundancy are still on every offshore raceboat.

In fact over a decade ago albeit an anomaly Raymarine dropped their PC software which they bought from KiwiTech a precursor to Expedition.

A good indicator of any convergence will be when one of the majors starts marketing marine PC's and screens. I don't see that on the horizon, but who knows.

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49 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Surprised to see the new Boss still retaining water ballast for RM (from video).  Trim yes. But RM?

You’d think the new foil/canting keel package would have sufficed.

Thoughts?

If you read VLPL interview, it's harder to make RM with round transom shape which is less drag but more unstable. Boxy hull like Arkea generates higher RM as the transom chine has something bite on though the foils play less role then.

VLPL wants make foils to decide everything , not withdrawing foil force/effect to the bow or transom. The newer boats pitch up more easily so it relies on two legs. That's keel and foils. Ideally , boat stability is much improved with T rudder as the last third leg. So the boat gets faster and more stable on three legs or a tripod , if you want. Not the transom which drags hull down. Therefore VLPL made such shape to make the least drag as possible. 

As you see,  Hugo boss make an unstable ride on transom but makes foiling earlier and higher than the boxy design. VLPL hull relies it's weight on foils far more.

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

 

I'd be damned if they're using a Type 2 for Hugo Boss :D:D 

 

 

Almost every mini 650 uses type1..Seems stable and very low power draw.

 

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7 minutes ago, troll99 said:

If you read VLPL interview

Thanks. I hadn’t read the interview.

Just struck me that with all the effort to reduce weight they are adding WB.

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19 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Thanks. I hadn’t read the interview.

Just struck me that with all the effort to reduce weight they are adding WB.

My rough memory is that hugo weighs 7,4 T ..most Imoca weigh 8-9 t

Prb was the lightest but added 400kg for new foils..almost 8t 

 

One interesting things that hugo builders wrote down weight of liquid  on paper every time they applied epoxy for each piece carbon sheet . They kept track for every gram :o

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1 hour ago, troll99 said:

One interesting things that hugo builders wrote down weight of liquid  on paper every time they applied epoxy for each piece carbon sheet . They kept track for every gram :o

Standard practice for a custom race boat

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8 hours ago, pilot said:

 

at first I thought this boat was a bit of a freak show, but now I see that the boiled down logic of it all is very impressive and almost impossible to argue with. now I totally get it. 

shit, there's even plenty of natural light in the cockpit.

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Hmmmm. I do need to remind myself that HB is a yacht - but not as I know it.

It's gone from fun to frightening in a relatively short space of time. ;-)

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And there they say that the new HB is not for the ocean race. It has already more cameras than a VO65.  :D

Not half bad. But that whole inner cockpit, outer navstation concept seems to be a bit convoluted.Or I missed something.

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It might be prudent not to show any videos of Alex crossing the equator, while he lolls about naked in his sauna cockpit.

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1 hour ago, Chasm said:

And there they say that the new HB is not for the ocean race. It has already more cameras than a VO65.  :D

Not half bad. But that whole inner cockpit, outer navstation concept seems to be a bit convoluted.Or I missed something.

Tough to see completely in the video but it seems like one goes in the hatch in the back of the cabin (from being on deck)  into the "interior" and then go through another hatch to get into the "cockpit". 

 

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3 hours ago, Rainbow Spirit said:

It might be prudent not to show any videos of Alex crossing the equator, while he lolls about naked in his sauna cockpit.

Around the world without a wank...tough man

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13 hours ago, james3232 said:

I don't think I've ever seen so much exposed carbon so well done.

Very impressive workmanship B)

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12 hours ago, southerncross said:

Surprised to see the new Boss still retaining water ballast for RM (from video).  Trim yes. But RM?

You’d think the new foil/canting keel package would have sufficed.

Thoughts?

Could it be that the Water Ballast Tanks will be a method by which to partially increase RM but also to increase inertia through increased mass?

They used to run centreline tanks - Foncia with MIch Desj - IIRC - to power the boat up when punching through chop and upwind angles - return leg up past Brazil..... etc

Ultimately the hull structure is a massive grid layout of stiffeners - so relatively low overhead of putting a lid over these compartments to create a suitable tank - giving you more modes to chase - i.e. punching a chop upwind or trying to literally weigh the boat down in fresh to frightening conditions when are hell is breaking loose and you really want to keep the boat speed under 30.....

Beautiful concept that has had the proverbial kitchen sink thrown at it and executed in a level of craftmanship that Carrington is reknowned for.

Bring on the TJV.

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2 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

Around the world without a wank...tough man

no man is that tough.

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19 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

In fact over a decade ago albeit an anomaly Raymarine dropped their PC software which they bought from KiwiTech a precursor to Expedition

I never did work out whether KiwiTech and Expedition were related. I recall trialling KT and when I fired up Expedition a few years later it seemed very familiar. 

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37 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

I never did work out whether KiwiTech and Expedition were related. I recall trialling KT and when I fired up Expedition a few years later it seemed very familiar. 

Dick very related..Nick worked for KiwiTech and when RM bought them he left taking his IP with him.

Raymarine dropped their KiwiTech inherited PC program with management buyout of Ray from Raytheon and pre FLIR purchase and introduction of NMEA 2K MFD's. Dumb mistake IMHO.

Then again B&G / Deckman died so maybe the PC space best left to the SME nimble who have got their feet wet.

I hope Nick has a succession plan.

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What are the (pressure?) gauges either side of the B&G MFDs? Hydraulic pressure in the keel rams? Water level in the ballast tanks? Something else? 

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Those are 4000 psi / 275 bar gauges, so most likely keel. Looks like a temporary install though.

 

17 hours ago, ctutmark said:

Tough to see completely in the video but it seems like one goes in the hatch in the back of the cabin (from being on deck)  into the "interior" and then go through another hatch to get into the "cockpit". 

Yes. The inner cockpit also has at least one bunk bed.
Putting the toilet outside makes sense. Fire too. But the nav station? Not really.

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21 hours ago, 3to1 said:

at first I thought this boat was a bit of a freak show, but now I see that the boiled down logic of it all is very impressive and almost impossible to argue with. now I totally get it. 

shit, there's even plenty of natural light in the cockpit.

So that aft exit doorway is a fabric of some sort? If so the cockpit isn't the survival shell. So its elsewhere in the boat, through some crawl space forward.  In a capsize everything electrical n the cockpit would be toast I guess.  Interesting approach.

Smart to include a diesel for power generation if needed.

Add up the weight of:

-the small diesel and its fuel

-the battery bank which must be pretty large if used for propulsion (minimum store for 5 knots for 5 hours) as well as all the electronics

-the electric propulsion motor itself

I wonder where you are against the weight of a normal 35hp diesel and battery setup with the 200 odd liters of fuel.

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On 9/22/2019 at 5:37 PM, james3232 said:

Some observations:

Clearly the bio tracker thing isn't anywhere near done, they were just screenshots.

That boom looks stupidly skinny.

I don't think I've ever seen so much exposed carbon so well done.

Downstairs tiller looks pretty awkward, although I know he'll barely be able to use it.

...

More observations:

In the latest pictures there is a folding seat attached to the wall. In this video the same wall is clean and empty. So the seat has been added later than the video was made. I expect one more (attachment point) to be added in future for driving head out of the hatch.

I noticed that the throttle leaver is placed on the wall backside of the cockpit. Looks strange place for it. Probably the boat is maneuvered by using the second (larger) hatch on the port side. 

These two rudders are (probably) not connected closely behind the transom. There is a beam with several bends connecting those two sides in the cockpit above the door. So if Alex is seating outside on the port side, like we have seen in earlier videos, and the rudder is pulled up on that side then the steering goes long way through cockpit to the port side using at least 8 ball-joints.

After first pictures I imagined they managed to work out a solution for keeping the deck clean of lines and sheets. But nothing has changed. Not much of this 20m2 of solar cells will stay effective.

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12 minutes ago, jb5 said:

So that aft exit doorway is a fabric of some sort? If so the cockpit isn't the survival shell. So its elsewhere in the boat, through some crawl space forward.  In a capsize everything electrical n the cockpit would be toast I guess.  Interesting approach.

Smart to include a diesel for power generation if needed.

Add up the weight of:

-the small diesel and its fuel

-the battery bank which must be pretty large if used for propulsion (minimum store for 5 knots for 5 hours) as well as all the electronics

-the electric propulsion motor itself

I wonder where you are against the weight of a normal 35hp diesel and battery setup with the 200 odd liters of fuel.

No, there is a solid hatch cover hidden in above the doorway. The fabric is only like a spayhood or something.

The generator looks to be Fischer Panda AGT 4000 PMS. Probably the 48v version as there is a 48V to 24V converter near by. If it can maintain 5 knots with 4kw of power then they need batteries only to keep electronics and autopilot running through the night. Alternative to solar is to use hydro generation that the engine (Oceanvolt AXC-10) provides. Maximum power that it can put out is 10kw but they don't need this constantly. I believe this setup is much lighter than the previous one.

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11 minutes ago, pilot said:

I believe this setup is much lighter than the previous one.

Not at all convinced about that. 

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I didn’t mean the boat. Somehow they managed to build it 100kg heavier by spec. But the power setup probably depends of time.

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10 minutes ago, pilot said:

I didn’t mean the boat. Somehow they managed to build it 100kg heavier by spec. But the power setup probably depends of time.

Depends on run time? Likely.

I'm talking about the all in propulsion and power generation systems weight including the Solar stuff vs a traditional system. 

Don't see it weighing much different. Maybe more. 

Some of it has better weight distribution possibilities though. 

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2 hours ago, jb5 said:

So that aft exit doorway is a fabric of some sort? If so the cockpit isn't the survival shell. So its elsewhere in the boat, through some crawl space forward.  In a capsize everything electrical n the cockpit would be toast I guess.  Interesting approach.

Smart to include a diesel for power generation if needed.

Add up the weight of:

-the small diesel and its fuel

-the battery bank which must be pretty large if used for propulsion (minimum store for 5 knots for 5 hours) as well as all the electronics

-the electric propulsion motor itself

I wonder where you are against the weight of a normal 35hp diesel and battery setup with the 200 odd liters of fuel.

I have no problem with a diesel system, but Thomas did mention the weight savings of not bringing diesel as opposed to the last boat. I wasn't really considering what provides onboard power when I said I thought the boat was extremely well thought out, the onboard power stuff bores me a little. I'm ignorant here, but maybe the list of pros/cons more or less balances out between diesel and electric systems when you factor in CG's, etc. 

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2 minutes ago, 3to1 said:

I have no problem with a diesel system, but Thomas did mention the weight savings of not bringing diesel as opposed to the last boat. I wasn't really considering what provides onboard power when I said I thought the boat was extremely well thought out, the onboard power stuff bores me a little. I'm ignorant here, but maybe the list of pros/cons more or less balances out between diesel and electric systems when you factor in CG's, etc. 

Basically what I think but electric solutions could be even heavier as is the case typically with cars. 

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I think I've mentioned this before but if Hugo Boss can satisfy the imoca class rules re motoring by carrying less fuel + using the solar panels by picking a particularly sunny day to run the tests? It could have some weight advantages. 

The battery bank could be used to lower center of gravity - without knowing the electrical demands, battery bank size and the actual electrical generation capacity, the electrical motor is significantly lighter than marine diesel, drivetrain/water cooling heat exchanger. Imoca also has some additional reserve fuel requirements if you carry a marine diesel to power the boat. Be curious to find out if a series hybrid has the same requirement.

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20 liters of diesel is the emergency reserve.  About 16 kg plus the can and required plumbing. Applies to a diesel engine or generator, so applies here. No saving.

Performance is 5 knots for 5 hours and a traction load of 280 dekanewton [daN] at a fixed point for 15+ min.  No clue how they measure some of that but it is done after the finish of a race so limited opportunities to 'manage' that i would think.  You'd need to size the battery storage accordingly.

For a diesel engine it must be 35hp min plus the meet the above.

I doubt there is a weight saving when comparing the full systems.

CoG options may exist but those solar panels and their wiring are all high up so that's an offset to whatever you can do low down.

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How is use of the diesel and/or solar propulsion systems monitored by the race committee? What stops someone from using the electric system to power through the doldrums?

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On 9/21/2019 at 5:30 PM, See Level said:

So, how do you go forward from down below, lower the line storage bag and crawl over the stopper bank?

563CD962-EE5E-4723-A6BD-9893A4C18E9C.jpeg.d6fbc3cc6af8eaaec24bca0fd2ae76db.jpeg

Notice that the walls of the cockpit are in line with the side windows. The hull of the boat is well beyond those walls - that creates a lot of space between those walls and the hull of the boat.

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25 minutes ago, Rainbow Spirit said:

How is use of the diesel and/or solar propulsion systems monitored by the race committee? What stops someone from using the electric system to power through the doldrums?

Diesels have seals to show if the propeller is turned. They check them at arrival. 

I know that they worked out something for the electric motors that turn the prop to generate electricity, some sort of disconnect I assume but no idea of the details. It also does not seem to be detailed in the rule. 

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Conrad had a datalogger as part of the propulsion system. He had to actively spin the prop to (un)furl it. I don't know how they did it exactly but logging energy usage is easy enough..

The decision to use more renewable energy has been made by the class years ago. I'm sure that they have a standard system how to deal with this round instead of an one off for an old boat on a slim budget.

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12 hours ago, jb5 said:

20 liters of diesel is the emergency reserve.  About 16 kg plus the can and required plumbing. Applies to a diesel engine or generator, so applies here. No saving.

Performance is 5 knots for 5 hours and a traction load of 280 dekanewton [daN] at a fixed point for 15+ min.  No clue how they measure some of that but it is done after the finish of a race so limited opportunities to 'manage' that i would think.  You'd need to size the battery storage accordingly.

For a diesel engine it must be 35hp min plus the meet the above.

I doubt there is a weight saving when comparing the full systems.

CoG options may exist but those solar panels and their wiring are all high up so that's an offset to whatever you can do low down.

Why would they require that the 5 hours at 5 knts be covered by batteries only? 

I think the generator can also be used to cover that rule, so the batteries must be sized more around the "house" loads (and missing power if any for the generator to cover the rule) 

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1 hour ago, yl75 said:

Why would they require that the 5 hours at 5 knts be covered by batteries only? 

I think the generator can also be used to cover that rule, so the batteries must be sized more around the "house" loads (and missing power if any for the generator to cover the rule) 

Possibly you could I guess. You would need to have the extra fuel on board to perform the tests.  You are not allowed to use the  20 liter reserve without a separate penalty. The published rules around the electric motors are not as detailed as those around the diesel engine.

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On the other hand, I don't know  how many watts/hp 280 DaN requires on an Imoca, but an axc 10 sounds quite small for that.

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They anyway are not allowed to use motor during the race. The reserve fuel is enough to meet the rules I guess. There might be conditions where the sky is cloudy and HB is flying too high to generate electricity by motor and Alex has to run the diesel generator. For this they need some extra fuel. But even if he runs out of fuel there is still option to slow down and recharge batteries in short time.

They don't have to take significantly more batteries than they had on previous boat because of electric motor. The generator weighs 90kg. To justify the weight they need at least same amount of fuel (including the reserve) that gives the energy that can be stored into batteries with the same weight (including the fuel). I made some calculations and worked out that starting from 3,8h working time the generator pays off. This means that 4.25l of diesel fuel gives the same amount of energy as 93,5kg of LFP battery. Other calculation shows that (20 m2 of) solar panels can produce together with the generator in very a bright day quite close to the power that the engine can consume. So, if solar panels are the primary source of energy then they only need enough batteries to survive a very fast night.

The question is, which setup is lighter:

  1. a diesel engine + 225l fuel (187kg) + Watt and Sea generator (7,6kg)
  2. a diesel generator (90kg) + 20m2 solar panels + electric engine (ca 30kg)

I am quite sure that the new setup is lighter in the start but is it up until to the finish?

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If the benefits of electric over diesel were clear cut more teams would be looking at it as a solution across the fleet.  The vast majority must not see the supposed weight benefits, the necessary reliability or maybe it just costs too much.  Maybe some mix of those as well.  Reliability is very important.

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Actually I am a bit surprised that they installed the generator into stationary location. I was expecting it to be on a platform with another heavy stuff that could be moved from side to side. This would be the major benefit over the stationary motor in my eyes.

There might be more indirect benefits in having a lot of solar panels. For example if it produces more energy than you need you can run a small conditioner or dehumidifier. This means less weight as ropes, sails, clothes and even the air can contain a lot of water. And if the conditioner pays of weightwize then it helps the pilot a lot in the areas where solar panels definitely produce more energy than needed.

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I think that overall system is not draining a lot energy, for example pilot ram type 2 is very efficient. I don't see why not use electric engine by using battery.  Solar are quite effective and minis uses solely 300w solar panels and skipping the secondary sources such as honda generator,  eFoy. Solar can charge during cloudy days. Add watts sea and youre good. Oled screens would be nice!

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1 hour ago, pilot said:

Actually I am a bit surprised that they installed the generator into stationary location. I was expecting it to be on a platform with another heavy stuff that could be moved from side to side. This would be the major benefit over the stationary motor in my eyes.

There might be more indirect benefits in having a lot of solar panels. For example if it produces more energy than you need you can run a small conditioner or dehumidifier. This means less weight as ropes, sails, clothes and even the air can contain a lot of water. And if the conditioner pays of weightwize then it helps the pilot a lot in the areas where solar panels definitely produce more energy than needed.

Have you considered what may happen with things that heavy in a knock down or worse? I'm almost certain engines, motors and generators all need to be in fixed positions as do fuel tanks and various other items.  Not used movable ballast devices.

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5 minutes ago, troll99 said:

I think that overall system is not draining a lot energy, for example pilot ram type 2 is very efficient. I don't see why not use electric engine by using battery.  Solar are quite effective and minis uses solely 300w solar panels and skipping anything secondary sources such as honda generator,  eFoy. 

And swinging the keel and pumping the water ballast etc don't use any power?

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11 minutes ago, jb5 said:

And swinging the keel and pumping the water ballast etc don't use any power?

Swinging the keel can be "trickle charged" via an accumulator to lessen the load, water ballast is manual isn't it?

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27 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

Swinging the keel can be "trickle charged" via an accumulator to lessen the load, water ballast is manual isn't it?

Manual ballast? Gravity? Never seen anything saying that ballast pumps banned. Nothing in the ballast rules D6 about it. 

Trickle charge for keel movements ? Great as long as it works when you need it as often as you need it and quickly. Somehow I doubt it. They are racing. 

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Hard to say all details as I don't know myself because its about the high end stuffs but I don't doubt hugo boss team has gone great lengths for optimizing energy usage. Choice of type 2 is a good example then an electric engine. You spend loads  on fancy carbon fiber, why not the rest of the boat. 

Round the world you gybe not that often and I don't see problem re keel and ballast. Normally each gybe takes time and you could increase that time a bit for less weight expense.

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22 minutes ago, troll99 said:

Hard to say all details as I don't know myself because its about the high end stuffs but I don't doubt hugo boss team has gone great lengths for optimizing energy usage. Choice of type 2 is a good example then an electric engine. You spend loads  on fancy carbon fiber, why not the rest of the boat. 

Round the world you gybe not that often and I don't see problem re keel and ballast. Normally each gybe takes time and you could increase that time a bit for less weight expense.

Not sure what you are arguing here. That it's lighter because they will economize on usage and go slower or forgo tactics in some cases?

Beats me. I figured they will race to win.

And, I don't think it would be lighter than a diesel system. 

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Another Imoca going dual sea watt :) more more solar and sea watt ., all electric is the way to go.

I say it because minis all gone electric without spares with exceptions. Imoca would follow. 

Why invest huge solar panel arrays which adds weight? Why not an old skool hydraulic pump for pilot?

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3 hours ago, troll99 said:

Another Imoca going dual sea watt :) more more solar and sea watt ., all electric is the way to go.

I say it because minis all gone electric without spares with exceptions. Imoca would follow. 

Why invest huge solar panel arrays which adds weight? Why not an old skool hydraulic pump for pilot?

Do you have any clue what you are talking about? 

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9 hours ago, pilot said:

They anyway are not allowed to use motor during the race. The reserve fuel is enough to meet the rules I guess. There might be conditions where the sky is cloudy and HB is flying too high to generate electricity by motor and Alex has to run the diesel generator. For this they need some extra fuel. But even if he runs out of fuel there is still option to slow down and recharge batteries in short time.

They don't have to take significantly more batteries than they had on previous boat because of electric motor. The generator weighs 90kg. To justify the weight they need at least same amount of fuel (including the reserve) that gives the energy that can be stored into batteries with the same weight (including the fuel). I made some calculations and worked out that starting from 3,8h working time the generator pays off. This means that 4.25l of diesel fuel gives the same amount of energy as 93,5kg of LFP battery. Other calculation shows that (20 m2 of) solar panels can produce together with the generator in very a bright day quite close to the power that the engine can consume. So, if solar panels are the primary source of energy then they only need enough batteries to survive a very fast night.

The question is, which setup is lighter:

  1. a diesel engine + 225l fuel (187kg) + Watt and Sea generator (7,6kg)
  2. a diesel generator (90kg) + 20m2 solar panels + electric engine (ca 30kg)

I am quite sure that the new setup is lighter in the start but is it up until to the finish?

Excellent post. There is an expression "the riches get richer"..so you catch weather system,  at the end weight matters less. To go Doldrums is crucial at beginning of the race so it's an advantage that can't be reversed easily.

As I always say, Imoca teams know far more thatn amateurs ordinary Joe5s in forums and they done maths for sure!

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14 hours ago, jb5 said:

Have you considered what may happen with things that heavy in a knock down or worse? I'm almost certain engines, motors and generators all need to be in fixed positions as do fuel tanks and various other items.  Not used movable ballast devices.

Yes. If it is done properly then nothing serious. But probably you are right and these kind of heavy stuff cannot be handled as movable ballast by the roles.

I can propose two ways how to do it. One is horizontally swinging arm, similar to what the navigation panels used to have. In this way you can keep pipes and cables connected through this arm. But this solution requires a lot of room and dictates the cap between bulkheads. The other option is to use tracks, similar to what the mainsail traveler uses. When I first saw the fat stern of the new HB I was convinced that it has such platform in there. That can be slided from one side to another behind the bulkhead under the mainsail traveler. But it looks like there are high beams supporting the hull that cut the room into segments. And I think I saw another set of ballast tanks from the latest video as these bags were on top of higher surface. So, the movable ballast will be handled in the hard way in this tight room.

 

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16 hours ago, jb5 said:

Manual ballast? Gravity? Never seen anything saying that ballast pumps banned. Nothing in the ballast rules D6 about it. 

They use scoops don't they? Relying on water pressure. 

16 hours ago, jb5 said:

Trickle charge for keel movements ? Great as long as it works when you need it as often as you need it and quickly. Somehow I doubt it. They are racing

They are racing around the world, they don't short tack up shorelines, an accumulator would just need to be able to manage a full swing or two, not beyond the realm of a low power pump, which could recharge within a reasonable amount of time.

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